Do It Without College? 

I worked at SpaceX Boca Chica as an avionics technician. My main credentials for this were my two trade school diplomas in avionics assembly and manual machining. Working alongside young engineers who graduated from Harvard, MIT, Caltech, Stanford I saw that those prestigious degrees don't mean a lot regarding competence. As of this writing Starship is nearing launch but actually it's over one year behind schedule. When I was working on it I saw so much really insane manufacturing dysfunctionality due to bad engineering decisions and poor organization. It really was nothing like I had expected from my previous experience working in aerospace. The engineers work alongside the technicians making 3-4x as much have a haughty attitude and so often demonstrate that they don't understand basic principles of design for manufacture. It's probably different in the Falcon program, but that was my experience in Starship. In my opinion an inspiring person like Fran who has demonstrated the ability to design, manufacture and run a business is demonstrably one of the mythic 10x engineers. I hope in the future there will be some more recognition of these types of talented individuals. I am on a similar path, and I hope some more doors will open to me in the future.

Just the beginning of the conversation: I have over 40 years in computers and electronics. Trained in the Navy on RADAR, Inertial Navigation, electronics. Thirty years working on Mainframes and Supercomputers, (IBM, CDC, Cray, SGI). In the last twenty years I was hired for the last three jobs only because of the last certification received. Literally, I have been told that experience does not matter at all. All they wanted, or cared about, was a current certification. I am so glad I have ridden the good times in computing from the 1970s till now. Without constant certification, there is no advancement in my current job with the state. You see, they require a current certification for the next job level. These certifications must be kept up to date and expire every three years. Oh! By the way, I have a Bachelor in Information Technology and a Masters degree in Information Technology and Library Science. No one in the industry cares. There is no way I can advise anyone today to enter the field of computing. So glad I am retiring next month.

Not to mention that a lot of these institutions have large tax sheltered endowments from other organizations all while running like a business off student's and student athlete's backs.

About 5 years ago, a friend posted on social media that there was a counseling job opening for the city of Milwaukee; master's degree required, $33,000 per year. He stated that at that wage, he wouldn't be able to pay rent, eat, afford a car, and pay his student loans.

I worked my entire career in military electronics and IT system administration without a college degree. But after I turned 55 I have been unable to get a job without a degree. It hurt me at the end of my career.

Ha! I loved this one. Credentialism... or just plain old gatekeeping. Looks like it's upper middle class guys wanting to stick only with each other, not letting anyone else in, regardless of what the ACTUAL job would require. I don't know squat about the US systems of education, but what you're telling is pretty similar to what we have here in Poland regarding the vocational / technical schools. There's a huge difference that matters: daytime studies at public universities are tuition-free. Of course there are private colleges and evening or weekend studies too, where you pay tuition fees. I studied chemistry, got a master's degree, but never worked in the field. I did customer support hotline for a pretty dodgy IT company, did all kinds of tech stuff at a typography museum, did wiring and plumbing at various construction and remodeling sites, did repairs and stuff in my lab... trying to get a job in electronics, getting constantly gatekept away, so I run this little shop of mine because it's all I can do, looking out for opportunities and going for them, trying to promote my skills here and there. It's also a thing about ageism - I guess it'd be easier to get a job if you were in your 20s. I thought this focus on "paper life" was characteristic of the post-communist countries like mine, but no... We need more real deal entry-level jobs in tech, and we need them NOW! Looking and singing more lovely than usual

After "Computer School" and the army 67->69, I got an operations job at an insurance company running older 2nd generation computers. My former schoolmates were working at the University of Pennsylvania having fun writing code for whatever they wanted on a 360/75. I loved coding so I quit my job after 5 months and joined my friends at Penn for Less Pay. We spent a lot of time helping the Penn students correct their code. That set me on my path to later work in Banking, Airline, Publishing and Telecommunications(VZ). Having coding experience and thorough knowledge of running the machines, I moved on installing operating systems and networking software. Then moved on to designing and managing network projects connecting hundreds of thousands of users. For ten years I was a team lead for a 125 mainframe network. 40+ years in IT. All from a free two year Public Trade School that taught computer hardware basics and coding. Never went to college. And neither did the IBM system engineers I worked with when Alpha testing IBM's first MVS install in the 70s. College Does Not Make You Smart.

There are some jobs you don't want done by a "self taught" person. Do you want your house, or bridges you drive over, to be designed by a "self taught" architect? Your surgeon to be a "self taught" doctor? How about the electrician or plumber working on your house or apartment? Sure, some of that work can be handled by those who participated in apprenticeships. But even then, you don't see electrician groups sending newer employees on their own to handle high-voltage systems and/or sub-station work. There's always someone who's experienced in that work, often college trained when you hit those levels. Even things that most people don't think would require college training, without it there can be disharmony to the point that it causes huge issues, up to failure of the product. Look at all the open source projects out there, and look at how many of the actually live more than a couple years. There are a few, but for every one that makes it past the 2 or 3 year mark there are literally hundreds that implode. Mostly because some of the group working on it is "self taught", and don't understand the foundations of software engineering. Without that foundation, the project becomes unmanageable, and eventually collapses under the weight of it's own technical debt. Even in some structured and organized companies that can happen, yet alone with a bunch of self taught people, each with their own "style" and way of doing things. I get that there's been an over-focus on college degrees. We don't need barbers and city dog catchers to have masters degrees. But dropping that requirement for jobs where the underlying skills are needed is fool-hardy. We need only look at states that don't require a degree (or at least certification) in teaching to see how that turns out. Yes, there should be alternate paths for jobs where apprenticeships work, but some jobs do need the skills that only a degree can supply. Opening up those positions to people without the skills needed only opens the door to mismanagement and collapse. Sometimes literally (as in buildings and bridges).

The root of the question is "credential." Choose your favorite search engine and see what it says. You can have "credential" without college, but it is harder to prove. And the irony is: as I can personally attest knowing some of my recent "colleagues", the "college credential" does not always demonstrate capability. Thank you for exploring this topic!

I have a Vo-Tech diploma, an Associates Degree in Electronics and Computer Engineering, and over 30 years of experience, but I still hit a brick wall because I don't have a Batcheler's Degree. I can't even get my foot in the door. I live in PA so I might have a chance to work for the state now. Thanks Fran for letting us know about this.

As someone who went through this exact mill: "Degree --> Job that artificially required a degree --> skills that have little to do with the degree", I completely agree with this. My mother, herself degreed and an advocate for education particularly for the US Navy, used to say: (paraphrased) "A college education doesn't teach you what you need to know for a job. A college education teaches you 'how to learn' what you need to know for a job." She'd also say that it doesn't matter how (or where!) you "learn how to learn", only that you have a chance to demonstrate it. I've always taken that to mean that companies should be asking for any of "a degree, a certificate, or equivalent experience" since any of those should be enough to demonstrate your core competencies and ability to learn. I, for one, hope this "college bubble" pops and brings things down to a more tolerable level. It starts by not blanket forgiving student loans because that just incentivizes universities to keep doing what they're doing. Let college enrollment drop because people can't afford it. Let degreed candidate pools dry up because people can't afford them. Maybe then companies will start looking beyond the "magical paper".

I can definitely attest to a vocational technical school being a good route to getting your foot in the door. I started studying IT and got a broadcast engineering traineeship when I was half way through. They paid for me to finish my course, and after the traineeship they offered me a permanent position. I've since completed a bachelor's degree, but honestly that was a waste of time. Because the industry is relatively small here, I probably could've hopped between broadcasters and climbed the ladder pretty easily. But I decided a while ago that management isn't for me. All the "successful" managers I've known do is keep bugging people to get stuff done. I just like designing, building, and fixing stuff.

This video is fantastic. You’ve hit so many points that I agree with. Mike Rowe is also an advocate for skills over college.

College has become outrageously expensive. I did get my bachelors and masters degrees in computer science and have benefited from that. However, I had a scholarship and was lucky enough to get in. Also, I went 30 years ago and it was not as expensive like it is today. Two of my four kids are going the other two do not want to and we don’t pressure them at all. It’s not for everybody and the cost is so nuts! Thx for the video

There have been many unqualified people who have made a considerable contribution in fields dominated by academically qualified engineers/scientists/academics. A good example in the UK is the late Sir Patrick Moore, who was an amateur astronomer who was elected Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society, Honorary Vice-President of the Society for the History of Astronomy, Honorary Doctor of Science from the University of Leicester and awarded a Knighthood for his services to science. He also hosted British television's longest running programme The Sky at Night and could claim to be the only person to have met Orville Wright (first successful aviator) Yuri Gagarin (first man in space) and Neil Armstrong (first man on the Moon) When asked why he did not choose to obtain a University qualification, he said, I wanted to stand on my own two feet.

Hi Fran,happened upon your yt channel last week. Really enjoy it. Peace! I'm a guitar player since 64 and a record collector since 2000. Dropped out in 10th grade and played all types of gigs for a living since then. Got my GED when I was 40 just to prove to myself that I could. Glad I found your yt ,you're really good at it.

I agree that college should not be a requirement for many employment opportunities. In Engineering (Electrical, Mechanical, Civil...etc.)...it is going to be pretty hard to have the skills (particularly in math/physics) and only have a HS diploma. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just quite difficult. There are HS level math and physics that are at the lower tiers of the college courses but the person that is likely to be exiting HS with those are also likely to be on a college path. In my college experience (Electrical Engineering), one barely touched the EE field in their 2nd year but were fully immersed by the junior year. There was so much prep in getting one's skills up to be able to understand the material that would follow. It is my opinion that one should be able to test-out of a course. That is, if you know the material (self-taught or otherwise), if you can pass the final exam for the course, you know the material as well as those that took the course, you shouldn't be compelled to take the course (fork over the $$$). What I've seen that has really jacked the cost of college up are: 1) Significant increases in "Administrative Fees" and what percentage of the college tuition that goes to administration. It is nothing short of robbery. 2) Abundant availability of college loans. Because so much money is available to young people that have no concept of how much of a ball and chain that college loan will be, they spend, which, due to the law of supply and demand, begets higher-and-higher college tuitions (and let's not forget about the college text book racket). If the money wasn't there for people to go to school, then the colleges would need to find a tuition level people could afford. I'm a HUGE proponent of junior (community) colleges. My experience (I went to one since there was a 4-year gap between my HS and College education) is that the junior college was FAR superior. The people there WANT to teach and are often much better than the PhDs at a university where they want to do their research and the teaching is this nasty chore that comes with the job (that they push off on TAs, as much as possible). While not universally true, it is the preponderance of what I have found at college...and that was decades ago. I have not found that having advanced degrees are as much of a requirement as you listed (Masters or PhD). PhDs are mostly for research and teaching. They can get one a higher starting salary in conventional engineering but often, the money/experience works out better to stop at the MS degree and start in the work force sooner, gaining experience (and income). Normally, the Masters degree does pay for itself. Again, the PhD is for the researchers and professors. Most of the time, there is a 5-year within the desired industry threshold that will equal out to a Masters. But, I guess every's experience will be different. Perhaps the dropping of of the college requirement for jobs that should have never had one will help apply market pressure to bring down the cost of college. However, I'm not hopeful until the two issues I've listed above are addressed. Cut the administration costs way back and not make college loans this blank check that allows one to stamped into a crippling debt that far exceeds the loan.

Fran. You make much sense. You are brilliant and any company would be so lucky to have you. In the 80s while I was in my 20s I went to medical assisting school and landed a job afterwards. Thanks.

yeah, accurate. I'm currently studying EE in a traditional four year university and at my last (factory) job I asked HR about the engineering opportunities. there seems to be a disconnect between HR and the actual engineers there about how useful an engineering degree is. HR says you need one, engineers say they don't remember anything they learned there. HR would rather hire a student intern to do some of the more basic engineering tasks than someone with actual experience in manufacturing. I think their thought process is that if college is necessary for them(which universities taught them to believe) then it must be necessary for everyone else.

I think the extra requirements are so that employers can reduce the number of applicants for a job. If the employer gets 50 applications for a job, they want to decrease the number of applications they need to review. I know a person who wrote job descriptions and always added extra skill requirements so that they could reject people for being unqualified without legal impacts. At one point, jobs in my field required a new certificate to qualify for a job. When more people got the certificate, it was moved to "preferred skills." Now it is not asked for at all.

Spot on, Fran. I was lucky to get into coding in the early 80s and work my way up without going to university, building up my CV over the years, but there was definitely snootiness toward people like me.

I agree. I've had a successful photographic career. I've also been an auto shop mechanic and worked up to successfully building engines. I've also done plumbing, framing, landscape installations, electrician assistant. I've retired after switching from film to digital as a professional photographer and lab tech. Eventually I went to 3rd camera video for music and documentaries. I even built a video editing computer and worked for a video production company editing and encoding dvd's. I did all of that with a NYS regents diploma, a few community college courses, USN photo school, and hands on on the job training. I'm not rich by any means but enjoyed every bit of it. I now live a simple life on a fruit farm in Hawaii. I couldn't be happier.

As the greatest composer once said, “if you want to get layed, go to collage. If you want an education, go to the library.”

Thank you for making this video! When an auto company produces cars in numbers that exceed demand they must be discounted to sell. Degrees work the same way except the college still get paid, it's the degree holder that is discounted.

This is really eye-opening, I'm glad you shared this! I'd heard of vocational schools but I'm a millenial in Canada so I don't know if they were here, too. Locking well-paying jobs behind a massive debt paywall clearly isn't giving everyone a level playing field. Kudos to you for starting your own company and proving yourself, FX pedals must have been a fun sector to be in!

"If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library." F. Zappa

I started doing live sound in 1989, going on the road with a band five days after I graduated from highschool. I did that for a bit, intending to give it up, and hit college. That turned into 24 years of solid touring, as a sound guy, stage manager, production manager, tour manager, and backline (band gear) tech. After that 24 years of touring, I decided to stay home, but Im still doing sound. I even ended owning a portion of the sound company that I used to work for. That opportunity came about when the owner retired. I took one sort of electronics 101 course at a local junior college, but that's it. Only in the last few years have potential employers begun to accept my lifetime of experience (nearly 34 years), as a sort of college equivalent. And as I work alongside the college educated types...its stunning that they know almost nothing at all.

By the time I was 20 by working while going to college I had a job that paid more than my university academic advisor. He had a PhD and was a tenured full professor. That did irritate him some and made it hard to determine how to advise me, at least as far as maximizing my future earnings potential. About 4 years later without finishing my degree (in mathematics) I had worked my way up into an engineering position. That's because people recognized my abilities and partially because the general aircraft industry started with visionaries that mostly very little formal education. I'm now 65 and "retired". It's very sad that hiring and promotion has been taken over by people who understand paper credentials and don't have any actual knowledge of the work they're hiring people for let alone how to understand practical experience and self-taught knowledge.

As a non-college grad with a very high IQ and a lifelong passion for self-education- I applaud anything that promotes hiring based on ability. I think the smart employer would utilize an ‘entrance exam’ that focuses on the best person for the job regardless of formal education. There is certainly an illogical cycle of funding and debt that feeds the college system, it’s a ravenous machine. In the days before massive federal funding and inflated tuitions, you could become an attorney by reading the necessary material and passing the bar exam! Think of that. If you knew your law, you could be a lawyer. Abe Lincoln is the most famous example, but it was typical. The ONLY reason you can’t do that today is because a law school wants the $150k - $250k tuition.

It is possible to do anything without a degree. However, a college degree makes EVERYTHING easier, knocking down the knowledge hills that must be climbed. The key difference in today's world is to graduate college debt-free. Just as it is possible to have a career without a degree, it is EQUALLY possible to get a degree without debt. Both simply require that you be willing to work! I worked my way through college. I did spend 6 years in the military beforehand, so I did have help from the GI Bill, though I still count that as WORKING FOR MY DEGREE. I also had full-time employment on all college breaks, and I always worked part-time during school. The time required for work meant I did not graduate in 4 years, but needed 5 instead, which actually gave me MORE time to pursue ADDITIONAL degree-related efforts. I was the only undergrad on TWO research teams, one of which resulted in my first publication as the 13th author out of 14! Being so busy, I had no time to spend money. I graduated with $27K more in the bank (in 2023 dollars) than when I entered school! Those funds became the seed for the downpayment on my house, the house I still live in 30 years later. College is not needed, but done right, it is one hell of a shortcut and a head-start.

Years ago I decided to go back to school to advance my knowledge and finish my industrial tech. bachelor's degree while working on the assembly line at an auto plant. I was taking night class College Algebra and Trig. The 'professor' was a jerk who basically said that he knew everything because he was a 'professor' for 30 years and we were all peons. Most everybody in my class had jobs and were going to class after working all day. I doubt the 'professor' ever held a REAL job in his life! I was making around $40-50k/yr at that time and decided that I didn't need the BS. Dropped the classes. Never got the degree but I still retired early and have a lot in savings. Chances are I had more banked than that guy could ever dream about.

Fran you have a Doctorate in Social Science and a Masters in Electronics in my book!!!!

Speaking as someone with a Master of Science degree in electrical engineering, college degrees should not be required for the vast majority of jobs. Now, there are certainly many careers that require specialized training and where being self-taught is dangerous and insufficient. I spent my entire career designing and implementing communications equipment for the military working for various defense contractors and I dare say that an engineering degree was needed. The problem is that we've gone too far in the credentialing area. It really troubles me to see so many jobs requiring a degree where none is required. My oldest son has a very good career as an automotive technician. He attended a local community college (trade school) to learn his trade. My grand daughter works at Target as a sales manager. Granted, she has a bachelors degree in fashion and marketing but I don't see that any degree is really required for that position, only a high school diploma. It seems that in most cases this requirement for a college degree now is simply to demonstrate that someone can last for 4 years on one task. There are many other ways to do this.

The point of requiring a college degree is to remove the human factor from hiring. Companies don't want to have to evaluate applicants, they want to be handed a metric that they can use to blindly select a fungible resource from a pool of ideally-indistinguishable applicants. Unfortunately, it means that the narrowest, and often least-relevant, possible set of requirements are put into place and people are instructed to just use those rather than understand the roles being hired for. It's a combination of institutional laziness, cargo-cult mentality, and inertia. Many of the people now responsible for hiring were hired using these policies and don't really have any interest in another way to do things. Having done hiring, I'll tell you that I would happily reject a dozen Masters degrees in favor of relevant experience and a trade school, but have been overruled more than once on that. About the only work-around I've found to be effective is to have a personal relationship with someone with the clout to bypass the initial hiring restrictions, because who you know carries more weight than what you know.

There are also some community colleges that have very focused programs. And "focused" means they are ready to be productive in the workplace on day one. One is Indian Hills Community College in Iowa. A California company I worked at hired a number of electronics technicians from there over the years. They were all absolutely first rate.

I did vocational school alongside high school. I was lucky in the sense that my area voc school was across the parking lot from the high school, so it was easy to do my CISCO Networking Academy classes and regular classes. My guidance counselor was quite accommodating in letting me also continue music classes -- I ended up getting a BA in music and working as a music director, but working in IT is something I have also done from time to time.

Watching your 'righteous rant' I was reminded of the fact that NASA never even considered Chuck Yeager for the Astronaut corps because he never went to college. Rigid reliance on degrees and certifications can be a form of H.R. laziness that offloads qualifying applicants to the third parties issuing the credentials. Institutions engaging in this practice shortchange themselves as well as potential recruits.

I feel you. I am in the Sam position as you are. I’m a photographer/videographer who is also skilled with electronics yet no matter what I do I’m just stuck in retail unable to live on my own and when my parents die it’s game over. I do have my own company tilted tripod media. Unfortunately no matter what I do it won’t take off and makes not money. Even RU-vid is t working too well for me as a creator. I refuse to go to college get in debt and take the risk of not getting a high paying job that would afford me to live and pay off the debt. I know people who Went in debt with college and had to declare bankruptcy afterwords and lost everything 😔 very sad as there are a lot of talented people wanting to work yet they aren’t allowed. Just think the next Thomas edison might be out there and he’s being denied the chance to change the world. So sad.

*Public* college used to be close to free, but then the government backing was gutted, and you know by whom. Private college always was an expensive path that the rich took. And there is value in having an educated public, so I say let's bring back the free public college.

My greatest regrets is studying audio engineering. Back in 2012 online resources were not like they are today so I didn't have the confidence to self direct my learning. I also was not ready to take on a degree so I repeated many subjects and never even graduated. 100k of debt now and anyone with access to RU-vid can learn better and faster than I did.

In Switzerland it is possible to enroll for a Bachelor's degree without a high school one if you're 25 and older. So grateful for that.

Welcome to the 'merican way - thanks for the great insight! it is so true and carries on to the 'merican co.'s in CAN. The only way to get through the ATS (automated tracking system) is to have a degree listed. most companies don't bother to check, but if you don't list one they drop you from consideration before you even get started.

My High School educational experience was so traumatizing and such a waste of my time that not only did it discourage me from ever wanting to go to collage, it made me not want to be a part of society anymore. Oh, and also I can't go to collage because of that reason I'm not allowed to talk about. You all know the one.

Seriously, I've worked in the SW industry for many years. When I started, it was required to have an absolute minimum of an associate's degree. Now corporations are so cheap, most people now get in if they have a pulse, but even that's not mandatory. Turnover is higher & quality has gone down immeasurably. Part of the "college experience" is a diverse curriculum, to receive a breadth of knowledge, so that you learn more about a wide variety of topics. Sure you can learn one thing in trade school & be good at it, but that leaves you very 1-dimensional when you need to adapt to change or interact with others.

When I went to college in the 80s, I wasn't chasing knowledge. I was chasing a piece of paper.

A lot of job advertisements now state “must have a xxx degree or X # of years job experience in the same field”

I am a chemical engineer. I am kind of ambivalent about Fran's position on this. I agree that there are many degrees that offer minimal job skills and that the absence of does not have anything to do with an individual's ability to perform an occupation. This is not always the case, though; I reckon that not too many of us would consent to surgery performed by someone without a medical degree, or be defended on a capital charge by someone who doesn't have a law degree. There are dozens of similar scenarios in engineering that a failure would result in injury or death. In these circumstances a relevant degree, from a school qualified to award such a degree, is one component of a multi-part system in society that exists to control the risk of inherently dangerous activities to an acceptable amount. Often this works by controlling the practice of these occupations by self-regulating associations or bodies that have a minimum standard of knowledge required to join, and this is most readily shown by the attainment of a relevant degree. In my racket (lol) it requires a four or five year engineering degree from an audited and approved school plus four years of relevant postgrad training, plus ongoing auditable continuing education to get and maintain P.Eng. certification. It is possible to sit a set of exams if one's education does not meet this standard and I know people who have done it. It seems to me that without the coursework to prepare, the challenge exams would be near-impossible to pass. The degree or knowledge that it implies, and self-regulated professional association membership are only two parts of the things that exist to minimize risk, and other elements can include, for example: Codes, standards of practice, board approval (e.g for MD's), ethics exams, continuous improvement, etc. I completely agree with the actions of the Pennsylvania governor to remove arbitrary degree requirements where there is no issue of liability or risk to the public. I think Fran's experience with the Space-X application is that she is one of the very few exceptions where she could work productively at the required level without having the degree(s), but that is pretty rare, and the Space-X folks likely never considered that, or thought not worth their time investigating to see if she could do it. A pity for Space-X, really.

I think we can all agree the number one job description we have all had to deal with is 'Must be 21 years of age, 30 years of experience, PhD a MUST! Able to work evenings and weekends. Minimum Wage only!'. That is for every job from pizza delivery driver to brain surgeon.

I was lucky, in that I gained a traineeship whereby I went to work learning on the job with experienced guys, and given "block release" where I went to technical college in "term time" and back to work in the breaks. After a couple of years of this I had just one day a week and a night class in more specialised disciplines. It was a much more well-rounded and fit for purpose education, not just general education then find out what you can do with it. Mind you, we're going back over 45 years ago. It never really stopped because new tech' leads to new courses and skills testing annually on every possible bit of kit that I was ever likely to work on.

It is good to hear things are starting to change, I have been fighting the non degree battle all my life as well.

A perfect summary of the difference between knowing the name of things and and actually knowing things. Lived experience beats dry academic knowledge every time. Bravo. Gxx

I agree with you on needing to drop the requirements for these jobs, especially entry level stuff, but we need an educated populace aware of history capable of critical thinking. Not saying that education is perfect but the the system needs reformed and made free or low cost like in European countries. It's almost like the politicians that refuse to reform education thrive on a dumbed down populace.

Kindred spirit here. I have been involved in electronics for over 40 years now, from working with vacuum tubes in the military to programming medical equipment today... all without a degree. I find 'degree for a job' more of a social need than a necessity, especially since everyone working in an electronics plant nowadays must all have the same basic IPC certification to hold their jobs

Most colleges aren't for profit. What really changed from the 1970's in college costs is how much the government used to subsidize the costs.

I think it depends on the field and market conditions. I'm a software developer, and majority of the jobs out there do not require a college degree. In job listings they usually ask for a college degree or equivalent experience. And at the job interviews I usually spend about 30 seconds talking about college, or a minute longer if the interviewer went to the same school.

100 percent correct. Have a brother and sister that went to college. Neither one ever used that for any job they did. My brother sold appliances. I'm self taught in everything I do.

I have a college degree in mechanical engineering but I have seen many engineers in my career that were not capable of performing the math required to design parts. I have also seen machinists and fabricators that were more capable of designing a part by intuition and experience far better than most engineers. Based on this, I believe there should be a route for people to prove they have the skillset to do a certain job without obtaining a degree. The exception to this would be any job that would put the public at risk and would not allow significant lifecycle testing of a product or structure (such as a building or bridge). In those situations I believe it is still necessary to have a PE with a deeper understanding and a license from the state in which they are working.

The college funding system won't stop people from making bad decisions. One can attend school with little or no debt (the average is 30k), but the system won't stop you from racking up six figures in a degree one isn't suited for or in pursuit of a career that is not realistic. The point of higher ed is to provide broad based skills that can be applied to a wide variety of potential jobs instead of learning how to do one "vocational" thing that winds up getting outsourced or automated. The point of getting a credential is to prove to an employer that you aren't a fuckup and they can risk 10's of thousands of dollars in employing you.

I have been blessed, never went to college. But that didn't stop me. I make over 6 figures. Luckily for me, computer field is one that if you are actually good at, and can prove it they tend not to care as much. When the company needs someone to get things going, they want someone that speaks computers not a college kid that passed a silly programming class. I can run circles around half of the college educated kids these days. Sometimes having a paper means nothing when real work needs to happen.

Vocational schools still exist in my area. In 11th and 12th grade, you can choose to do half-days at the high school and half-days at the vocational school. I can attest that college degrees are required in many places they needn't be. I have a college degree, and just having that piece of paper that says I spent four years at a well-known and respected college opens a lot of doors. I feel like it's kind of used by companies to gauge if a person is tempered enough to work at their company. Four years of college is tedious; working (often) is tedious. So to them, tolerating tediousness is an asset...I guess.

Fran, your SpaceX story was interesting to me, considering Elon Musk says how unnecessary a college degree is!

I think the big reason for companies wanting college education is that they know the applicant is desperate to pay off their college bill and are willing to low ball their salary. It's why we have "burger flippers" trying to pay off their degree.

The company I still work for some fifteen years on didn't require a college degree, but it happened the degree I had was generally compatible with the work I'd be doing. So, in that sense, I got lucky... but no argument here about the debt machine. I was part of the vicious cycle where I'm told my whole formative life to "go to college," then I actually go, and it's "what'd you do that for?!" This is especially true when the tuition bills came due, which I'm still paying for fifteen years later. Ridiculous. I too would like to see that change, but barring some changing of the guard at the top of governance, I just don't see that happening.

College requirements weed out the undesirables most of the time. The downside is sometimes you miss a truly good candidate.

Fran I am a retired IT professional. I did go to college, but, I majored in Medieval History. NEVER was my "training" used professionally. I got into IT by a simple expedient: I worked my way up just like any other industry. In the 1970s I worked as a mainframe computer operator. Totally Obsolete today, but it provided a "background" I could point to. I find it funny: the fact that Bill Gates has no college degree and became the then Richest Man in the World.

My College experience: $350 a book; read 5 chapters, act like your an authority. Priceless.

SPOT ON, Fran! Although I have a B.S. (Ain't that the truth?) in Communications, my career in media wasn't strictly based on that degree. Fortunately, I wasn't/am not in debt due to tuition costs.

In TN two year college tuition is free. If I were a kid today, I'd go that route for electronics and/or computer tech. Out of high school, you really don't know too much. A little knowledge can take you a long way. And starting out with no debt is awesome.

I have 20 years in IT. I applied to spacex as well to do a windows server administration that I could do in my sleep and got no call back. No degree and they won't talk to you. Oh well, their loss.

I"d like to agree with you on this one. SpaceX may not be looking to hire without a degree, but both the Military (as a contractor) and NASA are. To say I never went to college would be a lie. To say I got a degree would also be a lie. A NASA/Air force joint venture recently reached out to me in the field of AstroPhysics. The last physics class I took was in High School and nearly failed. Apparently something I was working on and discussing on twitter a few years back got someone's attention. I think the correspondence I had with the Hayden Planetarium in NY might have had some influence. Being self-taught in a multiplitude of subjects and not afraid of being wrong, shows determination, the willingness to learn and having an open mind. Not knowing what a person might want to be when they grow up is ok. I still struggle with that even at my age. I know you like your youtube videos and people like me enjoy watching them. I hope you don't mind name dropping, as they are looking for people. One of the positions they described seems right up your alley and perhaps the decommissioning of electronics and what isn't classified, might help the channel. Just a thought.

I just checked the inflation calculator and $10000 in 1970 is worth $75000 today. Wow 150K is not worth being in that much dept especially with interest rates going up now.

I agree we have seen a double whammy for kids now a days. Trade school education has been reduced or eliminated and as you mentioned we have seen inflation in educational requirements. I think one of the reasons college tuition had increased so much over the years is reduction in support at the state and federal level. We have also seen a corporate trend making employees even more disposable. The expectation is you get hired with the exact skills the company needs rather then grow into the role and be trained for ever more demanding positions over time. I think this is due to the fear they have paying to train their employees only to make them more marketable.

Yeah when I was a kid lots of adults didn't have college degrees yet lived in decent middle class homes and went on nice little vacations every summer. My dad graduated in '56. Got a job at a factory (no degree) and ended up working in an office position with pretty good pay by the time I came along. At least was doing well by the time I was four. That's when they had a house built out in the coutry close to the city by three miles. I couldn't do that now. I'm sure that company would now require degrees for jobs at that level of pay. My mom however did have a masters in English. She taught elementary when I was a kid and then got her masters and moved to college level.

They are recreating the aristocracy via credentials. I've seen it so many times where higher up positions require a degree only for the "unqualified" to have to teach the new boss how to do the job. This combined with them removing a lot of the older paths to advancement is basically reinforcing a status quo where you just make workers entry level forever unless they are willing to go into debt.

yeah I'd say most of that is true. When I started working in my job that required my degree I definitely thought I could do the job without having gone to college. But there is a caveat and it's that people with experience sometimes also downplay the experience needed to do the job and I feel like there definitely is a level of competency required. For example at my work a kid was hired without a degree for a job i used to do. He's constantly fucking up and making mistakes lol. Could someone who went to college also mess up? Yes, but I feel like there is that level of competence needed that some people are able to find by going to college or at least having experience for the job. It's also worth it to note that even if you have a degree that really doesn't grant you a job. I was unemployed for a few years before getting my job and that's with constantly looking for and applying to jobs that require a degree. What you want to get a job is a connection at the place you're applying to.

I've always assumed that post-secondarily education, of any kind, shows an employer that you're not just some simpleton who has the ability to both learn and to follow-through with commitments, in the case, completing a degree. However, It's not always a company mandate to require post-secondary education. Not being considered for a position is often times the result of a hiring manager's own bias. I have decades of experience as a software engineer but I went to art school instead of completing a computer science degree, so even an application I've submitted in the recent past was dismissed as unqualified. Experience be damned!

Thanks Fran! Always enjoyable and informative to watch!

I got lucky. I slipped into computers in the mid 90s and was able to ride on my abilities. I would get the job if I could talk to the person that needed me and I fit their needs. Now that HR has taken over and someone who is likely not technical is checking off boxes has put me out to pasture so I work for myself now.

I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with pretty much everyone here! I hear this argument that almost always comes from people who don't have a degree - no bias there. Most employers realise that a degree tells you more about a person than just the field in which they studied. Yes, I agree it is way too expensive and that is a problem. In relation to a PhD, they are essentially free to do in Australia (not sure about the US). A PhD is a research project that adds to the total knowledge of human society (whether or not they go on to work in that field) and creates the next generation of academics, who will in general, contribute enormously to the benefit of the rest of us whether we know about it or not. Of course you need a degree before you can do a PhD. Of course there are exceptional people like Fran who can study and learn and research without the help of a college. Nevertheless Frans pedals are essentially a high school level project using tech about 40 years old. You wouldn't build them like that today.

New sub. I never attended college. Like Dirty Jobs, Mike Rowe I grabbed any opportunity that made more money. Worked hard and dug into the field. Retired 5 years ago at 63--mostly because I steered away from debt. It seems avoiding debt isn't taught in college, oblivious about compound interest. BTW I've read stacks of nonfiction books. You've got a great channel. 👍

I have two degrees. Chemistry and a masters in environmental science, I work in a mailroom.

I was led to believe that if you have a degree it shows the employer that you can stick to it, learned to do research, follow direction, complete tasks, work with others, blah, blah, blah. For the FEW that actually go into the field that they got a degree in that’s ok, but I will say the majority of college grads go into something totally unrelated. It would be nice to see how much of your tuition goes towards your education, and how much goes towards the big beautiful buildings and grounds, the football team, maintenance, real estate taxes, etc. Final note: if you feel the need for college, go to a state school...... same quality education without all the frills.

The tech industry leans heavily towards "degree required" publicly but on the inside passion is what's valuable. The degree gets you past the recruiting team, that's basically it.

Yes! I go it a job at a university about 30 years ago with only an associates degree and stayed 25 years. I was doing computer graphics and consultation with faculty and their projects. I was one of a very few that got in under the wire so to speak. It was always a dirty little secret that I didn’t have a “real degree.” I retired a couple of years ago. My job changed over the years and I ended my career as a software administrator for our learning management system. I was well respected and generally loved around campus for my attention to the faculty and their needs.

Being president of the USA does not require a college degree nor military service. I expect Pennsylvania colleges won’t be happy with Shapiro’s decision. Much like dietary standards have been determined by Farming coalitions, job entry requirements are probably “encouraged” by colleges.

there are so few city/county/state jobs where a college degree is seriously necessary, I've done just fine working in IT for over 20 years with no degree, but now I cant get past the HR filter.

I remember early on, if when you had a degree (typically required), you never had enough "experience" for the position. Not that you weren't smart enough, but you hadn't had any "life situations." This was very frustrating in the beginning. I fond that it wasn't always what you knew, but how you sell yourself.If that didn't work, you chalked it up to it being THEIR loss.

Being self taught myself I wholeheartedly agree

Credentialism and skyrocketing college tuition go hand in hand. Need college to get the credential. Need the credential to pay for the college. With jobs that often don't actually need any meaningful college level education. Here in CA, community colleges are pretty strong, and are relatively cheap for in-state tuition compared to other states. Some of them also offer vocational/trade tracks. They're an excellent springboard to a full college degree and about as economical as you could get if you continue to one of the many state universities. And it used to be significantly cheaper. Perhaps the age of inexpensive education kickstarted the rise of credentialism?

I'm 25, and graduated high school in the 2010s. My high school had a dual credit program where you could take classes at the community college across the street instead of electives at the high school, and through that program i graduated hs with a CAD technical certificate. But my school was a private hs with a focus on college prep, so my experience is not universal. I attempted to go to college but only made it a semester and 1/2 before i just stopped attending my classes. I just couldnt handle working and schoolwork and taking care of myself all at once so one had to go. I didnt realize until years later that the reason i completely lack any time management skills was due to undiagnosed adhd that probably would have been caught had i been in the local public school system. what you said rings true completely, most jobs dont actually require a degree in practice. honestly believe its just a way to keep poor people poor and neurodivergent/mentally ill people out of certain fields of work. If you dont have the money to go to college you cant get a nice paying job to save up so your kids can go to college, etc, etc.

Ralph Nader has a print news paper named the Capitol Hill Citizen. You can't get it on line. Interesting thing.

As someone who also does not have a degree and has enjoyed a successful career (coming to a close in terms of age I guess) in Hardware/Software development here in the UK. I went through an apprenticeship (sort of) whereby I got my skill through on the job learning coupled with some part-time non-graduate academic learning. Well said Fran, I totally agree

This just in; RU-vid defeats University in the longest race in education history! Love it 🤣

There is "Frasier" TV episode called "Seat of Power" where he has to hire a plumber to fix the toilet. The snooty overeducated Frasier works into the conversation that he has a Mercedes E320. The plumber responds, "Yeah. I had one for a while, but it was too small for the whole family, so we upgraded to the S-class." There may be a lesson there.

I started learning Electronics, but got stuck in the math end of it. (calculus) so I wandered over to computer science. since I was paying for my education I ran into another problem. they kept changing the necessary classes every 2 years so it was next to impossible to finish. so I decided one day that I will just take classes in what I am interested in (or need to learn) I never got my dream job, but i'm not in debt either.

Right on, Fran! I was one of the last graduates of our local VoTech HS in the 1980s before it was shut down and remade into a "magnet school" for STEM college prep students. I graduated an electronics program which was essentially aimed at producing TV repair techs. After graduating, I did a year in college studying EE, while working in local TV shops as a bench tech. My electronics teacher from HS found out about another local university that was looking for an engineering tech, and recommended me. I dropped out of one college to take a full-time job at another. Have been there over 35 years, and ironically, now work for an engineering school with the job title "Sr. Research Engineer" with nothing but a VoTech education and lots of hands-on electronics experience. There was a "back-door" way around the system, even WITHIN academia, at least at one time. Unfortunately, most of the other "Non-Degree Engineers" I have known have long retired, and It seems the pathway is being shut down tight behind that debt paywall now....

I do a good job in a very good position and have no college what so ever. It took me so many wasted years to build up my confidence but my lesson to anyone reading this is one thing. You are much smarter then you think you are. There are so many bums out in the work place it's not funny. If you have just a little more ambition then the next guy you can do anything and be a success. Just have good work ethics. And don't let anyone tell you , you can not do it. YES YOU CAN !!!

I went to college to help pay for my rent and it worked for about two years.

One thing that causes extremely high college prices is the rip off books. They will charge an absolute fortune for the books and make sure that they can't be reused (they'll make a tiny change so this year's books are no good next year). It is a racket. The publishers are in cahoots with the schools.

Trying to be an engineer with no degree is a tough road.