Brilliant video, very informative. I think the biggest difference is time, Rahm, for example, has probably been hitting Callaway regularly with his fitter for several months, trying and retrying different specs of club heads, shafts, balls, putters and grips. Unless we regular golfers have loads of money to spend on a dozen sessions with a fitter, we can't expect to get as good a fit as a pro. Most companies do a full bag fit in 3-4 hours, Rahm may have spent 3-4 hours over a couple weeks trying different Lob Wedges.
I've spent the past year trying out half a dozen iron sets/shafts and three or four options for pretty much everything in the bag after taking off about 4 years. It's been interesting, expensive and at times grueling process but well worth it now that I look back. My game is better than it's ever been and I have a greater appreciation of all of the components of my bag. My biggest surprises were going from regular to jumbo grips, going back to steel wedge shafts from graphite and going from a 44 1/2 " 40g S flex driver shaft to a 46" 50g X flex choked up 3/4". Golf has truly become an art now. Some of the time, lol.
Very good commentary here and no doubt some gear is proprietary to the player/manufacturer. Understandable for sponsored athletes. Some however have become a haven for collectors. Scotty Cameron puts out all sorts of items labeled “For Tour Use Only” which bring a hefty price tag for those willing to part with their money.
Excellent video and well explained. Spot on for the most part . There are always some exceptions but not many. I play a set of TM R9 TP Tour issue C heads which are smaller than the retail version. I also played a set of R9 Tour issue B heads which were smaller than my C heads. So there can be some differences. The main difference was these look better at address to me than the retail version which looked quite large. Now these are older irons but I haven't found anything I like any better. Irons are the one part of equipment where newer doesn't have as large of effect versus older. You still have to learn to play golf correctly and both physically and mentally. There are no short cuts in this game.
I think the special sauce of "Tour Issue" really applied to equipment back in the day maybe 30 years ago or so. You can occasionally find tour issue irons from the 80's that are really different then what was available to the general public. I think with that in mind take into account the manufacturing abilities back then. They are nothing like they are now. In todays world a company can pump out copies pretty easily, take Adam Scott for example. He loved the old Titleist 620 blades so much Titleist went ahead and made more just for him. It wasn't so easy back then. I think manufacturers have taken advantage of that with marketing equipment as Tour Issue because of that mystique around the term tour issue. Great explanation of the modern tour issue stuff
it isnt like hockey where the pros are getting the next year's sticks with way better tech custom made and skinned as the current year's, or on the flip side, Quick's leg pads that vaughn still have to make with the old V2 leg channels in for him
Tour issue isn't going to help your game equipment wise. The absolute best thing you can do for your game equipment wise is to get professionally fitted for clubs. Period. Love the content! Keep it up
I think the fundamental difference with “Tour issue” is it’s custom built for the player to very specific criteria. I was fitted last year for a Ping G410 and the fitter advised that any heads that are non standard loft don’t make retail quality control and often end up on the tour vans as some players might want something with a loft that’s different from standard.
Came across this topic and video today. In the case of drivers, pros do not use retail because the head would wear out to quickly, obviously the face. Recently Rory was just on the legal limit for the face thickness of his Driver. This pro hits probably 100 drives in practice per day! Face thickness gets thinner the more you hit it, hence drivers can go dead. Pros use drivers where face thickness is thicker than what us mere mortals can buy. If we had their equipment distance of our drives would drop off as less spring. But with an average pro swinging at between 115 - 130 mph distance doesnt drop off to the extent of what we would experience. The older the face the bigger distance they get. Hence why someone can buy a new driver and get the face shaved to thinner making it non conforming but creating more spring off the face equating to bigger distances
I have a little experience in this area. Around 2005, I purchased a retail version of a driver (a well-known brand) at a golf store. I liked it okay. Some months later I found a 'tour issue' of the same club on eBay. It was stamped with a tour serial number and was used by a professional. It had a premium, upgraded shaft. I thought the shaft alone was worth the offer price so I bought it. The clubheads were definitely different. The retail version had a slightly closed clubface whereas the tour version was square. The tour issue club also had a different sound and feel. It was more solid. I hit the tour issue club a level better than I hit the retail version. So yeah, I have to believe there are differences, at least sometimes.
*It had a premium, upgraded shaft.* I exect it also had a premium upgraded price! Very often in most things we buy, whether its clubs, Musical Instruments or a car. It's all about feel and how you feel, or the way it makes you feel. The reality is, there is very little if any difference in the specifications and materials in same brand model items.. But we percieve something as better or worse because we aren't robots. People get very upset when you tell them they are imagining it but the truth is they are. Something as simple as a grip change could make a club feel totally different. Te club isn't different but the way you the interact with it is.
I've always thought that the biggest difference between the clubs in a tour player's bag and those off the shelf is tolerance. Similar to the Winchester 1 of 100 or 1 of 1000 rifles, the club heads used by the top pros are measured to much tighter tolerances (weight, loft, etc.)..
When it comes to the woods, it's not that they are sorted with tighter tolerances, just that they are spec measured for everything (loft, lie, dimensions, CT, face angle). Iron heads might be weight sorted tighter, but again each iron head will have been weighed also. Shafts and grips can be sorted to tighter tolerances. That does happen at the factory.
tour issue clubs issued used by a tour player vs my clubs used by me? It reminds me of something once said about Bear Bryant, "He can take his and beat yours and he can take yours and beat his"
This is very interesting as the same thing is usually said about great Guitarists for example. That their gear is better or not the same as retail. In most cases it absolutely is retail. The difference is they have the instrument set up properly and can actually play it. I guess bringing that back to the golf theme. learn to swing a club properly then go and get your clubs fitted for you.
I agree with everything you said. But I would add this: tour professionals especially the top pros, have a much more extensive fitting process than what an average amateur can get unless they travel to a company’s HQs where testing is accomplished. Tour pros get the desired lie angles measured, lofts adjusted on irons, shafts tipped or hard/soft stepped, length measured exactly to fit the players desire, weighted precisely to a player’s desire, and the grip installed with optimal thickness and layers of tape that may vary from top of the grip to bottom of grip. With that level of customization yes, the tour pros get a completely custom set of clubs compared to the average amateur. I have had several fittings. No fitter has been as thorough and complete as what a tour pro gets…and the tour pro gets it free, while the average amateur pays for it. I’ve been to Club Champion, Sea Island, a top 100 fitter, and various local fitters. None go into the depth that tour pros get unless of course you go to the Callaway HQs in Cali and pay the $3k for the all day fitting. Even then it’s questionable that they would make the same effort as a touring professional.
Great stuff again. Just subscribed! Really liked your video on the adjustable hosel, you and Tom Wishon from Wishon golf are the only ones that seem to really understand this stuff. I used to follow trottie golf from taylormade tour truck and even he doesn't seem to grasp some of the basic clubmaking fundamentals.
Had a few TM heads that were "Tour" - an R540XD Tour TP purported to be from the van and one of Todd Hamilton's spares. Not sure how it was hot melted but it was impossible to hit anything but a fade😂 Had an R7 "shallow" that the face caved on - which bummed me as I loved it - but then TM brought out the R7 HT and I gamed that. Oh - and a couple of early "double dot" Y cutter RAC wedges - before they went into production. Still have one brand new and unbuilt (the FeO2 black raw). Great video - folks should spend their $$$ getting fit first 🤷♂️
I appreciate it. I often wonder what makes someone hit the thumbs down button?? Really don't know. Luckily I am not the kind of person who worries about the one unhappy person in the crowd if the majority are happy. If I am helping people and get more good response than bad, I am set! Thanks for your support.
@@EFGMC Quote Einstein. "Stay away from negative people. They find a way to ruin every good plan" Or something along those lines. Keep up the good work.
Good video, I would add that some rare sets of irons have different offsets, and also iron soles and wedge soles are custom ground to players standards which may not suit you. Customization like hot melting, tour sleeves for loft an lies, loft adjustments make player clubs unique. That level of custom fitting is the real equipment advantage.
All true. Very few are actually different leaving the factory. Changes take place after with input from the player. If you have a good club maker, anyone can get the grinds, hot melt etc changed. Zero offset and other specs like that are completely custom for certain players so I don't like to count that in the tour issue category.
First, Pros get the most spec conforming Tour Edition line heads. These are very hard to find but MUST by the rules of the USGA and R&A be made available to the general public. Off-the-shelf woods can have their loft off by as much as 1*. When I purchase Tom Wishon woods I get “hand selected” ones. This way the spec matches what I want. Secondarily, Pro’s are fitted for the exact shaft for their swing. We’re talking $300+ shafts vs. the $50 OEM ones. Lastly the wood heads are hot glued to specifically balance them to exactly fit their swing. Yes every part is technically available on the retail market but the Pro’s finished club cost is 3-4 times the cost of an off-the-rack club. Pros clubs are custom in every way.
Don't disagree with anything you said. I said the tour issue heads are available in different places but not at your local golf shop, and that if you order an aftermarket upgrade shaft in the same model, with the same specs for flex and weight, it will also be the same. Hotmelt is something anyone can have done for $10-$15 by a knowledgable club maker. I realize I didn't get into custom grinds on irons but was trying to keep the video at a reasonable length.
@@EFGMC I am a custom club maker. A few years ago I was receiving Tour Edge Exotic woods that were played on the PGA Tour. The average shaft was $400-$500. As far as hot melt you need head mapping to install it corrected and that info is not public knowledge. As far as irons go custom grinds plus Loft & Lie adjustments are readily available to everyone. As with woods the shaft selection and setup is key.
@@briansgolfworks4991 Yes, some of the shafts can be more expensive, but my point is if you want a Fujikura Ventus just like everyone and their cousin is playing on tour right now, you can get that exact shaft either from any OEM or any number of golf component retailers.
@@EFGMC That’s not always true. Many OEM’s spec their shafts from suppliers. They may say Ventis but they’re TaylorMade’s spec for the Ventis. Usually this is a cost factor. Manufacturers are not installing a $100 cost shaft ($200 retail) into a $400 club. OEM shafts are generally not the same quality as the after market version.
@@briansgolfworks4991 There are different versions of some shafts in some cases and the shaft makers and OEMs may make them difficult to distinguish between the two, but if you order a Ventus w/ VeloCore from an OEM, you are getting the "real" shaft. If you weren't, the OEMs would be getting calls from the BBB. It is important for consumers to understand this so that they aren't confused by a Fuji Ventus vs. Ventus VeloCore, or Mitsu Tensei AV vs. CK vs. CK Pro.
Nice timing for this popping up. I just saw some tour issue irons on eBay and wondered what the difference is. Apparently not much so I won't be spending extra on them
Before seeing the video, I think they do. That is the tools of the trade. If anything makes a difference, it may be the tolerances when building for pros than building for a weekend warrior.
A few things to note, the material used in Scotty Cameron tour putters are different than your ordinary off the rack Scotty Cameron. The tour players use gss which is German stainless steel and the off the rack putters use a less expensive stainless steel. Have never tried a gss but from what I understand it has a softer feel and offers a little more feedback. Also yes you can get upgraded shafts in your driver but there are differences. Say you wanted an upgraded project x shaft in your driver, they offer mass produced project x shafts for more money and they offer the same shaft that is hand crafted for even more money. The hand crafted is the same shaft but built with higher tolerances for a more consistent shaft. Also before the Taylor made m6 driver the tolerances in driver building were not the same. One driver might have a cor of 1.5 while others might have one of 1.46. The company’s would test drivers out and only give the tour pros the ones with the highest cor so they were as close to the legal limit as possible. That’s why the m6 was so good because not every driver they produce was right at the legal limit. As for what material irons are made out of I am not too sure, they could be using more exotic metals like the Scotty Cameron gss does for example but I’m not too sure
Thanks for the comment. The Tour Only Scottys are not all GSS as only certain ones actually use that material vs 303 Stainless or other. The Tour Only putters do come out of the Scotty studio vs the retail heads that are mass produced as you stated. Shafts get extremely tricky when discussing differences. Anyone can get the same shafts as the tour pros use in 9 out of 10 cases. If you custom order a club, the OEM will have numerous high end shaft options. They won't have everything, but you will usually be able to get the most popular stuff on tour. So if you want a Fuji Ventus w/ Velocore, you can pay the $350 uncharge and get it. It gets confusing because Fuji also makes a non-Velocore version which is much cheaper. As far as driver limits go, you can go on eBay and find M1, M2, M3 etc heads (though harder to find them at this point) that all show the exact same range of CT scores as the most current Sim2 heads. This idea that these heads are hotter now is marketing. Now some newer heads may have a larger hi CT face area vs older heads but it won't be by much and the max remains the same.
From what I can tell the real difference is that the pros have their clubs specked to fit their swing style. So a guy like you would analyze their swing and design them a club that would fit them perfectly. My clubs for instance are probably a bit longer than they need to be considering I'm a bit on the short side of what your typical club is designed for lengthwise that is.
Having them spec'd out on the tour van lets them find what they need faster. Certain player likes x loft with y face angle etc, they can pull those heads for them and be built up quickly.
Tour pros get hand selected equipment, access to prototypes, and lots of times the "whats in your bag" that you see on Golf WRX or similar, does actually have the right information. Prototype shafts hidden with common graphics are a very common thing on tour. Rickie fowler uses a "standard" cobra driver but it has its own CG characteristics... so its not actually the same driver. And its not available for normal people to buy. So yes PGA Tour Players use better equipment. because they get more specific eqiupment or in many cases... equipment specifically made for them and then hidden with normal or common graphics so people cant really see that they have something different.
Great video 👍 A few fine points though.. Justin Thomas actually has his irons nearly at zero offset. Titleist presses/ bends it out some way. Can’t get Titleist to do that for the public. There are a few tour issue grips, they make lightly corded tour velvet cord grip, midsize tour velvet cord, all sizes in a z cord grip ( not options at retail ) Plus access to discontinued grips. Also, just a theory of mine. A lot of the tour issue heads on eBay/online for sale are actually the rejects that never made it onto the tour van. I’ve seen heads on a tour van and all the CT’s were marked between 250 and 253. I’m nitpicking though, awesome video and folks could save a lot of money listening to this video 👍
Good stuff. Thanks for the heads up. Had no idea about the light cord. The others I have seen but not that one, or didn't realize it? Still seems dangerous to have a 253 CT head on tour knowing the number can creep up over time.
@@EFGMC Xander Schaufelle ( don’t know if I spelled that right ) had a hot driver over the limit I believe at a euro event last year ? I think it happens from time to time. Aside from the penalty the player has to endure, the oem probably just shrugs it off.. I need to correct myself though, most heads I saw were right at 250 ct. A few were 253. Some at 245 +/- a few.. The funny thing is I think people are buying the reject tour issue stuff on eBay, etc.. a lot of the time. At the end of the day... better going retail, unless like you said you find exactly what your are looking for specifically.
One other tidbit of info on tour issue heads. They are the “b” stock heads. Off the rack heads have to be as close as possible to being identical to each other so 2 of the same club are exactly the same. The tour issue heads are off spec by loft, weight center or gravity, lie etc. a pro needs specific specs that are often not the stock spec. Like a 9 deg at 8.1 with a heavier head for higher swing weight or to better balance a shorter length. A seeet spot that’s higher on the face for a lower spin launch. Tour issue heads are spec rejects.
Yes, perfectly said. The problem is I think most consumers think the opposite and believe that the Tour Issue ones are more spec exact without understanding this.
@@EFGMC , loved your video. Very informative for the average consumer. Regular people often don’t believe us when we try to tell them this information. I work in retail clubfitting and sales. Been fitting since the late 90’s. We get tours of the big companies Tour departments since we’re near Carlsbad, Ca. where they all are. We get great behind the scenes information while doing product training when the new equipment comes in. Keep up the good work.
To me the real difference is the fit and understanding what works best for the individual. They have the ability to get perfectly fit for their clubs for their swings , game etc. Its like a suit off the racks fit ( still can look very good if you look for awhile and try on till you find that nice perfect fit ) against a taylor made suit fitted to a T just for you that day ( you look as good as possible with this ability ) this is difference. So don't buy tour issue either take your time trying clubs or spend that money getting fit if you play enough and consider it worth it for your game
Hot melt ports are also worth mentioning, my tour issue Taylormade M5 3 wood has a hot melt port with the melt closer to the face and it's sitting at the loft of a 4 wood.
Love the video...over the years of talking to PGA caddies and asking these exact questions the answers I've heard are a little different than this video...besides the model name you see for the camera , the irons are customized for that player... now this all depends on contracts and where the player is on the world ranking Yada Yada yada..I have played with a former number 1 and we played the same manufacturer his 7 iron was haft inch longer and was made not bent to an 8 iron loft...I did not know there's no rules or regulations on club length besides driver. You can't buy phil mickelson's iron off the shelf yes they are MBs but completely made for phil only.. hense prototype...thats where I think the confusion comes in and when tiger and Taylormade released Tigers clubs that didn't help...lol..Jordan Spaeth wouldn't walk into golf galaxy grab a set of AP2s and play the masters..he spent days with Titleist getting his grinds, lofts ,lies and lengths just right so he could stay on tv...how many sets of AP2s do you think they sold when he was at the top ? I'm a new subscriber and love your content !!!!
Good points. And you're right about Jordan Speith not walking into Golf Galaxy. He gets all his clubs custom fit from Club Champion, or so I've been led to believe from tv!
I think overall you’re right but there is a big difference in calling something “tour issued” circle T putters for example vs. tour level custom fit. Pros do get access to club fitting and club options that the average and even better player doesn’t, and they get access to club specs that normal golfers don’t. Titleist is not going to make me a set of clubs with a specific toe grind or custom profile with the specific CG weighting that I want because I’m not a top level pro, but, they sure will for guys on tour. Just because Titleist’s 620mb irons are stamped on the club for JT doesn’t mean they are the same as what you can get through a retailer off the rack. The clubs conceptually aren’t really any different, it’s just the customization options are much more detailed vs, length, lie angle, loft and shaft. What I described above is literally how all the wedge grind options became available. (Back in the 90s and 2000s ) these options were tour issue only unless you really knew what you were doing as a club maker and player.
I agree with all of that. I choose to put some of that stuff into a different category since it's not even tour issue as much as just plain custom for an individual golfer. I also wonder how far down the money list you can be and still ask Titleist to make you a set of clubs from ground up. Guessing there are only a handful of big name recognition players who could actually get everything they want.
Also the guys on tour have the tour vans adjust any head for their specific sw they like, maybe sound for hot melt to be added and either fade or draw biased hot melt positioning. They have more access to multiple upgraded shafts that we usually don’t get access to for testing but usually can buy. However they get to try everything first and usually we are left to purchase and hope if not fitted by a company that has a lot of choices.
That's all true, however the "tour issue" heads you buy off eBay or similar have not had any of those modifications done to them in most cases. They are just the same heads with measured specs. Like you said, you can have all the same adjustments made to them, you just have to pay for it.
@@EFGMC Taylormade has tour versions of fairway woods with deeper faces, open face angle and low cg that you can't get on their website. I also tried to order one from GolfTown and they said they couldn't order it. The 2017 M2, M4 are notable examples.
@@Mackie17 They have had B versions and sometimes C and D versions also for many of their heads for a while. But I again for this video would group those into a different category. Just like Callaway with the diamond versions of drivers. Now those will often be referred to as tour issue but not always. My main point was there are also plenty of stock design heads labeled as tour issue and that is just a matter of spec measuring.
Great video. I would think that tour issue clubs just have a higher level of quality control. I think it’s pretty well known that even the best club makers have certain “manufacturers tolerances” that they allow to get through inspection and onto the shelf. Wether it’s stated loft or lie or both on the clubs I think it’s a little difficult for a manufacturer to make 10,000 driver heads that are all exactly 10.5 degrees with a lie of 58.5. Tour Issue and Tour Van clubs are really specked out to what the player wants and tour pros are most likely not using “made for” shafts.
Not so much spec'ed out as sorted for the players I think. They measure a whole bunch of heads and then have the specs to match up to a certain golfers. Iron heads are just sorted to where they should be as far as weight, loft and lie. And as you said, aftermarket shafts in all their clubs.
Those Circle T stamp Scotty's are actually made in a different location (Scotty Studio) than the standard retail versions. What difference that makes, probably hard to say.
I think the idea is that, with the measurements specified on those stickers, you know exactly what you’re getting as opposed to the variations in the OEM’s tolerances (which is a bit disconcerting). I would also think that the “tour issue” designation might mean the club is far less likely to be a counterfeit.
I would just say that from the measurements I have done on off the rack drivers, the specs have come out to be very consistent overall. The idea that they aren't is something pushed by people trying to sell Tour Issue or "high end fitter/builders" who want you to believe they are giving you a better end product.
Well they are better FOR the tour pro. Reason why would be that they have tour trucks that can literally perfect the club exactly to the spec a tour player wants. You cannot get that same treatment of your clubs unless you get a special invite or are a tour professional.
Well some clubs have hot melts and shafts that aren't for sale to the general public that have more exotic materials used. You never touched base on that. Obviously certain putters from Cameron and such use better grade grade stainless steels that for sure aren't offered to the public. Hefty price tags as well.
btw, some of the irons are very much different as well. tour issue irons are with completely pressed out offsets (Apex pro players do that a lot as stock option has too much offset for tour guys. Thats why they have Apex pro “dot“ versions. Similar is true for other manufacturers).
True. Less offset, more grooves, different sole grinds are all options. That doesn't make them better or worse though, just different. Also I did a build a month or so back with some Apex Pro tour issue heads. These heads however were not the dot or double dot, just the standard retail style head. So in this case you had "tour issue" in name only. Assuming the specs were all right on for loft and lie though I didn't check them. The weights were all exact.
Tennis pros all use "paint job" pro stock racquets, racquets painted to look like the latest retail offerings. After this became publicized, the racquet companies had to change their marketing claims from "used by Pro X" to "endorsed by Pro X". The pro stock racquets are made at special low volume facilities different from the Chinese mass production. While this video claims that the golf club differences are mainly in terms of weight specs and tightness to the spec, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that pros are getting better and higher quality clubs. Wasn't it an open secret that Tigers Nike clubs were made by a specialty forge in Japan, and not available to the public or anyone else for that matter?
He’s also ignoring the fact that tour pros get better shafts, better fittings, and tour heads. Bryson had Cobra making him a driver for the Masters, obviously this is not available to retail. For Callaway, you get Red and Green dot lie angle adapters, the Diamond heads for Power Fades and smaller driver heads. To take one club and go “Nope, not different!” is dishonest. Bridgestone used to make specialty formulas for Tiger Wood’s ball because Nike didn’t make golf balls.
Face angle is a serious variable on tour issue wood heads. Some iron sets are forged but stamped as non forged retail edition! Generally, tour issue wood heads are not good for everyone. Like taylormade TW iron set is definitely not for everyone, it was individually designed for Tiger Woods
Thank you👍 But some Player have a special grind, on there (stock)irons. See Nick Faldo in Mizuno film. Or people says, that Tigers Nike Irons, was forged by Miura with Nike stamp.... What ever🤷🏻♂️ i'm happy with my fitted Mizuno MP18 and the Nippon shafts....🏌️♂️😎
Those are true cases, but individual cases. Most PGA pros aren't using secret forged irons or irons with their name on them. I don't count those types of clubs are tour issue, those are one of a kind.
golf is one of those sports where theres not really like idk, a massive range of performance improvements in gear, in other sorts like hockey youll see pro level stuff being super customised, modified to be more protective or better, normally actually the next year's model skinned as the current year's, or whatever, golf gear now is pretty much already at the limit of what's legal, so what they make for the public and what they make for the pros is basically the same thing, just goes through better QA
Great video. Thx The only true tour issue clubs are putters and Henrik Stensons grips. Been trying to get golf pride to answer my emails requesting his full cord tour wraps unsuccessfully now for about 5 years. No I don’t want to play your crappy multi compound grips golf pride :)
They do keep old stock of some grips for the tour guys I wish we could get our hands on. I miss the old half cord tour wrap! And agree, don't like the MMC grips at all.
Question??? The pros hit there irons so often . How do they continue to use the same equipment for years ? Do they remill the grooves? Sand blast the heads and rechrome? By sending them back to the factory ? Or have several several back up sets ?
They usually have several sets when they find one they really like. Of course the big name players can basically get whatever they want even if long discontinued.
I can tell you that I made the mistake of buying a set of TaylorMade r9 tp irons a few years back, and found that the TP's had higher lofts. I lost a club in distance. Clearly a tour player's higher swing speeds allow for more loft.
TP stuff in general was for the lower handicap higher speed players though some was more marketing than actual tour specs. You might have had a mis spec-ed set as the lofts were pretty standard for that style of head and that model year.
Thank you for the video, it’s clear and perfectly explained. But a lot of players have special irons or putters, built with different materials or by a specific manufacturer. For example, some Apex MB are built by Miura, so we don’t really have the same feeling and quality. There is also Scotty Cameron with GSS putter
Thanks for watching. Totally agree. But I wouldn't put a German Stainless Scotty in the Tour Issue category or Miura blades made for other OEMs. I feel like those are individual pieces and should be counted likewise. I am mainly talking about eBay or other online retailer heads labeled Tour Issue and commanding a premium price because of it, not because those clubs are different or better but just because they are technically Tour Issue.
Just want to add one comment here…I have 3 different tour issue R1 driver head….These days, the serial numbers are same as retail. But some old heads have tour issue serial numbers, like TD2xxx or TD8xxx. Retail R1 driver is more like oval shape head and somehow tour players didn’t like it. So tour issue R1 head is more traditional head shape and smaller size. I have TD3xxx, TD2xxx and TD8xx. I believe TD3 serial is higher loft and TD2 is standard 9 to 10 degree and TD8 serial is much smaller head, 410cc head. TD2 and TD3 is 440cc. What I heard was that TD8 is designed for Sergio Garcia because he liked smaller head. I still have them and honestly…I don’t see any difference, I don’t hit any further than retail. I collect them because it has different shape than retail. But these days, they look exactly same. Retail, tour issue…no difference…just fancy title and bunch of spec numbers…
Tour players forged irons( regardless of manufacturer) are forged by endo. Retail clubs are not, other than a few jdm brands, and those that are forged by endo, are forged in their Thailand plant. Tour clubs, forged by endo in their japan plant in Niigata.
I’m a golf tech junkie. To me the sleeves that adjusted the loft are different. Irons are mostly raw steel or the hollow constructed irons are not. The pros don’t need the distance. Some pros don’t like the adjustable hosel and will request standard feral shafts.
There are a few who use a bonded hosel design. Tiger held out for a long time while with Nike. At this point most of the pros are using the adjustable hosel, though like you said some are using a "tour" sleeve with less angle in it. Mainly think of Taylor Made because they use a 2 degree adapter and the tour is 1 I think. Callaway has the green dot adapters though that is really just a LH adapter going into the RH head. Just switch the writing on it.
Great video! I’ve purchased tour issue clubs before but once I discovered it really was only about the specs I realized it’s just not worth it. A quick note on the Tours measuring COR, I’ve read that they only measure drivers so some guys have hotter fairway woods. Perhaps that why so many guys on tour stick with 3 woods for a decade.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure if and how many fairway woods get checked for conformity. I think it's also the case that the OEMs aren't strongly recommending switching 3 woods every season like they do with the drivers. If it wasn't written into contracts, not sure the pros would be changing drivers nearly as often either.
That makes sense. Scott Fawcett recently tested his 20 year old Callaway Big Bertha vs his newer Mavrik and the difference in distance was insignificant. I guess marketing dollars drive r&d and profits obviously.
@@diogeneslantern18 I’m not surprised. I’ve heard club fitters say when they see someone coming in with TM Burners they know they won’t be able I beat it. Surprised TM hasn’t brought that face under a new name.
@@arthurford829 it's truly a titan of the 2000s. They are "relatively" common for an "old" club in that I've seen 3 other players with one in the bag, and all 3 of those players (and I suppose myself included, if I do say so myself) were pretty serious players. If it works, it works...
Let's never forget that tour pros are a little more than traveling salesman for the golf industry. The golf industry wants to make sure that the tour pros do as well as they can with the products that the golf industry provides them.
Little more than traveling salesmen? Name a salesman of any kind that is professional in the use of the product he sells. Those guys aren't selling anything but entertainment. If you buy something they use with the idea that it will make you play like them, that's on you but to diminish their level of skill by calling them traveling salesmen is just ridiculous.
I have a pair of Taylormade SLDR drivers one standard one Tour, my Tour issue is 430 instead of 460, the Tour issue is more workable,( I assume that is face roll), but also way less forgiving, when my swing is on it's great , when not I bag the 460cc standard and play straight shots, as with blades as compared to game improvement irons ,unless you want to shape shots there is no advantage to tour model drivers or blades, but if you want to play draws, fades and stingers you want the clubs you can work!
@@paulmcgee1867 Correct. All that stuff is altered after. Custom grinds will sometimes be done during manufacturing of irons. Lofts and lies on irons can be changed at any time so you don't need to know the exact specs out the factory door, unlike a driver where you can't go and bend it around except for the adjustable hosel changes you can make.
The difference is the pros are playing clubs that are weighted for their swing. Most on tour play clubs that are heavier in weight and swing weight than what you can just buy in the store or order. I guarantee they are not playing D2 drivers off the shelf. They may play D4 or D5 but also the head is heavier to match heavier shaft and probably a plug to add weight by grip end. When you have a heavier club you swing smoother and hit sweet spot more often. The players on tour are chasing speed, but they are chasing it with the heavier clubs, not buy buying a 40 gram shaft.
I value the rich information in your video. But I do not agree that the Pros play with the same with what we ordinary public. Of course, I know very little to nothing compared to your knowledge as a professional club maker. But let me state the fact some years ago upon receiving a can of Slazenger tennis balls from ATP Tennis evens & found that the balls were absolutely superior in terms of quality & playability. In this connection, the Pros in whatever sports will be given different treatments/equipment compared to the general public.
They don't usually get heads more than a month or two before retail unless it's a prototype, in which case that's not Tour Issue. You can see when a head goes onto the USGA / R&A conforming list right at the start of the year, retail usually released in Feb.
Hitting a near exact spec can be important. I have a Callaway 816 Alpha DBD Driver and Fairways. Admittedly that is an older model. GolfWrx did a driver center of gravity test on almost every brand made in various years ( mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/ ). Every one of the 2016 Callaway drivers marked 9.0 was measured to be 10.4 degrees of loft when in the neutral position. Whether Callaway hand-picked these for Golfwrx I don't know. In any case, I wanted 10.5 degrees so I ordered the 9.0 marked driver from Callaway Pre-owned and it works great with my swing and specs. For that reason using Tour Issue heads can be helpful. 9.0 to 10.4 is a significant variance. I would be hitting my drives too low if it really were 9 degrees of loft. I dusagree with your statement that retail issue club actual specs vary little from the marked specs. I used to work for a Golf Digest rated Top 100 custom club fitter named Leith Anderson. We would measure the heads. In one case years ago I found a TaylorMade 12.5 degree marked driver head that was really over 17 degrees of loft - more than a 3wood! I thought that couldn't be right so I got Leith to measure it. He agreed that 17 degrees was impossible - until he measured it and verified what I found. That amount of difference is a rarity, but any significant difference can cause issues.
Kisner uses an older set of irons- will a manufacturer hold sets/heads/shafts in reserve for a player for future use? Or is that up to the player? I can see a manufacturer keeping reserves for the short term, but Kisner might be on his 7th set (or more) in 2021.
They will hold some I think for a big name player but only a few it seems. Daniel Berger has been using the 2011 Taylormade irons and at this point is buying sets off the web to keep as backups.
The fujikura motore f1 is not an older shaft but a recent offering from fujikura. At least the one Kisner uses is the latest iteration of the motore f1.
You're right. These are the Motore X which are current. My mind jumps back to the old versions from 10 years ago always. I still see those often, less of the new ones. Good catch.
Some tour issue driver heads use a different metal that is harder so they don't crack the face. TM tour issue heads are lighter to allow for hot melt adjustments while keeping swing weight to spec. COR is probably at or close to max on tour. The reason you don't see them on eBay is because they are being used on tour. Hard to find a tour issue head on eBay with a high COR. There's a reason for that. Tour issue irons if blades tend to be forged away from China and with a softer metal. Finally - Tour Issue shafts for woods have a much tighter variance to flex strength. At least back in 201*s. An X flex retail is not an X flex tour issue. And that's probably the most important aspect fitting wise - Making sure your driver and woods get the right kick due to correct frequency. But upgraded shafts these days are probably just as good as tour issue these days. Technology has gotten better in the manufacture process.
Most Tour issue clubs are generally blueprinted, and the tolerances are much tighter that the mass produced. There is a little cheating on tour and that' custom clubs from another manufacturer stamped with the brand they are being paid to play. Thats why sometimes they look weird
True. So many different types of heads out there, hard to quantify them all. Also so much misinformation. My main tip is just don't go paying extra for something just because the words tour issue show up in the description.
And is also actually a neutral face, where the off the rack head is 2 degrees closed even though it says neutral, to help the average golfer who usually slices
I realize this is an older video and this is off topic but I want to get into club building I have researched it for quite some time now but wanted to ask what are the first tools you would invest in first what is absolutely necessary. And to comment ont he video thanks for making it btw doesnt a face get hotter the more you play it i know thats not exactly what you were getting at but just a thought I had while listening if so a pro plays so much every day i would imagine over time the face of their clubs wearing thin would make them hotter. idk maybe thats rediculous to think
I need to do a video about what you need to start building clubs. Second question, yes the faces to flex more over time and can becoming non conforming.
Trottie from TaylorMade said that Tour Issue driver heads and fairway woods aren’t has hot as retail because of the usga double inspection. Stick with retail!
I've been trying to get my hands on a Taylormade 16.5 degree tour head. I have an Aeroburner and I LOVE how easy it is to hit, but I HATE how closed it sits at address. It would be my dream fairway wood if I could get it to sit neutral.
@@danscanlon4208 It sits closed as well. The Sim and Sim 2 16.5's only come in the D-Type(Draw Bias) in their off the rack offerings. All their 16.5 degree heads sit closed unless they're tour issue. Taylormade is kind of the exception to this video. Their tour issue heads have low and forward centre of gravity for less spin, smaller heads with deeper faces and they sit more neutral or open than their off the rack stuff.
@@Mackie17 Taylormade’s website shows Sim2 Max Fairway (regular, not D-type) in 3HL 16.5 degree. Not sure if it’s stocked in stores, but you can order it through their website. You are correct it is not available in the Sim2 Titanium fairway wood. That only comes in the 15 degree and 13.5 “rocket” version.
That head I believe has some forward shaft lean that makes it fall closed. This is more advanced club building, but you could pull the shaft and shim the front side of the hosel to move the shaft into a more neutral position. May also require shaving down the back side of the shaft tip to get it to fit correctly. If the closed face really bothers you, this could work. Full disclosure, it could also ruin the shaft so might be more of a last result deal. Could also just add some lead tape to the rear toe side and see if that cancels any of the face closure.
@@EFGMC Yeah the shaft I have is a $500 shaft so I don't think I want to mess with it to that extent, but I just got some lead tape today so hopefully that will help!
I know a player that has played on the European tour this year (he has no club contract but access to the tour vans) He has just been on e bay to buy two TM M2 heads as he cannot get any better numbers off any newer clubs he wants a couple of spares
scotty putters have ones which are tour issue only and are mega expensive! Balls are different though, was able to get some off a pro and the skin was different on the outer layer from what I could tell.. the balls where callaway ++ balls. Am open to be told otherwise cheers.
Scotty tour putters are made in the Scotty studio where as the retails are made in a factory somewhere else. Some of them use different materials (ie GSS which are the super expensive ones). Not sure about the balls. Will need to do some research into that.
@@EFGMC Is that what makes them unique to tour players as well as cost? I have a scotty myself and love it. As for the balls that's only what I found from getting them off a pro but that doesn't prove anything. I also got some of the defective ones which they produced.. they went everywhere! P.S new Sub
@@willo283 The ones with the circle T logo are made in the studio and cost more for that reason. The GSS putters are even more because of the material. Thanks for the support!
Hey AJ, Can you add a bit on your loft sleeve adjustment videos. I am interested in what using a right hand adapter in a left handed club does. In particular with the ping adapters is flat still flat or does that now become standard and the standard become flat?
Hate to say yes they do 100%, perhaps not limits (how hot the driver face is for example) but wedges/putters certainly the customisation options they have just aren't available to the general public, on wedges unique bounce/grind options just aren't available to the public
Most of that work is done after the initial manufacturing. So if you find a knowledgable club maker or know what you're doing, you can get any grind you want.
@@EFGMC yes and no, any work you do yourself/aftermarket voids any warranty so it better to get done from the manufacturer which isn't available to most people, vokey offer wedge works which is common tour player grind options but still not 100% adjustable, that's where the difference lies
I would assume all the manufacturers want their tour pros playing what is available to the general public as a huge part of them paying so much is they want the public to want to play the same clubs as whoever the big name of the time is. As for tolerance I would assume it is like Bryson balancing his balls, they are the same balls as any of us could buy it is just he only plays the very best ones, few of us throw a brand new £4 ball in our shag bag.
Interesting AJ, good info. I'm interested in what tolerances the OEM's use for lofts mostly in their off the shelf clubs. I had my 716 Titleist irons loft checked by my Pro recently and only had 1 club which was exactly what Titleist said it should be, 48°, the others were as much as 2.5° out. OK, I know that I had been using them for a while, and they could have gone out of "spec", but it got me wondering how close to stated lofts they were when I bought them new. All the lies were wrong too, and I had them custom fitted to 1° upright, so maybe it's a con? I've not long bought a Ping G410 driver and fairway wood, can I easily measure the lofts without the equipment you have? Maybe a video showing how if it's possible please, thanks 👍
Hard to say on the irons since you had been hitting them. Have never been able to spec check new irons out of the box. Hoping the channel gets big enough where OEMs will start sending me equipment to test. They do spec check iron and wedge heads on tour vans but you don't usually see them sold online since they are all individual and not in sets. As far as measuring goes, I did a video about using my iPhone to measure loft, lie and length. The loft and lie were pretty close on a 3 wood I did. Woods and especially drivers are really tricky to measure however because of the face roll. 1/4 inch up or down the face can change loft 1.5 degrees so it's really difficult to say what the exact loft is. If you haven't watched, here is the iPhone vid and a vid about impact height on driver. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-r9SAU9zNBFk.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mw1SHxqZEBY.html
@@EFGMC Thanks for replying, I did watch those videos when you put them out. I don't have an iphone, and I'm not sure whether the accuracy would be worth it anyway. I have a home made club "vice", L shape, which I can clamp the driver into and get the shaft square to the face, ( not leaning backwards or forwards), and have tried an adjustable spirit level with angles on, but it relies on getting the bubble exact. I need some kind of protractor or angle finder of some sort I think.
@@paulmilsom1346 I have one of these I use sometimes, and I can bring it to the course. Can also find on Amazon pretty sure. www.golfworks.com/golf-club-loft-and-lie-protractor/p/gwpro/
If they made golf clubs the way they do for tour players you would be paying 10k for a set of clubs those custome SC putters are well over $1000 so i wouldnt complain to much as a club golfer enjoy the game
Ct and cor aren’t comparable measurements. COR isn’t used anymore. COR IS SPEED, CT is time. Drivers can pass CT tests and be over the COR measurements. Callaway and TM have ways to increase speed while maintaining CT. They make a more powerful rebound that takes longer to rebound so it’s under the CT but comes off faster on speed. Callaway confirmed this when I asked ( during our retail equipment training sessions)if the new driver was CT legal but did it measure over the COR? They said “no comment “ as they and all of us laughed. Which meant it’s over the old COR test but CT legal. Doesn’t really matter though as stated in this video, the results are only a couple yards in each new year’s clubs improvements. In a nutshell, this video is right on. If you want tour quality, do what I do. Get fit by me or another fully trained fitter. Pay for some upgraded shafts and have the set fit to your needs. Mine are. Expensive, yes. My driver is around $800, 3 wd $600, utility iron $350( project x hzrdus hand crafted black 75 6.5 and 95 6.5/ +$300 on woods and +$150 on UI)Irons, stock price. My project x 6.5 are a no upcharge option $1300. Wedges $160, project x, no upcharge. Lamkin Crossline grips n/c. Stock Odyssey Tank #7 o works 2018 for $249( at the time). Driver, irons and wedge not the stock length, 45” and irons/wedges +1/2” and 1 deg upright, n/c. All in total $3680, give or take a few bucks. I take my game seriously as I’m a +2 and play occasional tournaments. If you can afford it your stuff can be as good as any pro’s.
I understood that the reason for CT is it can be done anywhere as it's a simple, small machine so you can do tournament onsite equipment checks. COR requires a much larger set up and isn't really mobile. But like we both said, it's really marketing at this point as the actual differences in distance is minimal at best.
@@EFGMC you’re totally right. I thought CT came about due to the easy portability as you said and to eliminate the ball as a variable that’s used in COR.
The answer is yes. The clubs PGA tour players use have no budget. Retail clubs have a cost to produce and a retail price. Mike Taylor from Artisan golf built Tiger Woods irons and said they cost over $30,000 to make.
Obviously, Tiger's clubs are not going to be the same as the rank and file tour player. Likewise with any of the big money names. If they want something specific and custom then that changes things. The real focus of the video was understanding tour issue and how that differs from retail. Tiger's equipment would need to be a whole different video.
@@EFGMC I'm pretty sure anyone who plays on the PGA tour can pick and choose whatever they want. Including picking the materials their irons, wedges, and putters are made of. Just about every Taylormade staff player uses a prototype blade iron. The difference is materials, higher grade steel.
I'll have to disagree with the idea that "Tour Issue" doesn't mean different. There has been a TON of special tour issue irons, wedges, woods, and especially putters that are tour issue, and different from retail. Right now, you can find a special zero offset tour issue RBZ set of irons with "retro lofts" that barely look like the retail version. There were 2mm constant offset TM300 Forged along with a special "Lehman Toe" version, and even a NS bounce grind. You can't buy that stuff retail. Remember the 300 series of drivers? Yep, special "300" that had this gigantic deep face compared to the others. Ping makes special old irons with conforming grooves for some tour players, Callaway has made tour only irons and putters as well. I could go on, but while it's true that today there's a bit less of that, it still exists, it is still made... but there's all the carefully measured stuff that I'd call more "Tour Van" stuff than "Tour Issue".
I agree all that stuff is out there but in my opinion that shouldn't be referred to as Tour Issue. Unfortunately the term Tour Issue has been watered down by resellers so that when you see it on eBay or some specialty retailers, it's in most cases referring to what I talk about in the vid, that being simply spec measured heads. All that other stuff is out there and can be purchased but people need to know what to look for, and a lot of it is one off made for a specific player and I think of that more as a one of a kind. You sound like you have a pretty extensive knowledge about all this. What would you say is the percentage of say PGA guys who are actually using something at that level of customization? Personally I think most of the rank and file guys are not using much out of the ordinary if you look at the total numbers of modified clubs vs. what I would consider stock option stuff? Thoughts?
@@EFGMC I think there’s a lot of stuff out there and available to many, but a lot of tour guys like the modern retail product without needing a special one made differently. If you count special small headed fairways, different offset irons, putters made for tour only, things like that but not prototype stuff, the number would be extremely low, IMO. There’s a ton of stuff that’s prototype for next year and while it’s currently only found on tour, I wouldn’t consider that to be what we are talking about.