My Alfa 147 GTA has a few handling 'quirks' and the wheels are very inset.. will some bolt on wheel spacers have any effect at all, or are are the manufacturer claims about spacers a lot of hot air?
I hope you have notified your insurance company. They consider wheel spacers a major modification. And they know it does not improve either steering geometry or handling.
Thanks for the advice. Have since removed them for better comparison and they will be going back on ASAP. I can’t speak in general of course but this car handles much better with them on, other than more of a tendency to tramline and slightly more torque steer. The extra steering feel, stability, positive turn and better ride are well worth the trade offs for me.
The 147 is a odd car, some tyres that are amazing in other cars wont be very good in the 147 chassi, best tyres for it are the Pirelli PZero Rosso Assimetrico and the Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Position, i tried even Michelin Sport and the 147 dont like it.
been my bug bear for years..I see guys fitting coil overs, sway bars, strut braces and brakes with budget tyres..drives me mental...how can you understand how you car handles and rides on cheap rubber???
Goodyear F1 Asymmetric. 147s and GTs are extremely rubber-sensitive. The F1s are the best tyre I found for them, miles better than the Pirellis it had when I bought mine.
Simon a better softer tyre say a michelin ps4 will help, but it will not get rid of the harshness of those bloody Eibach pro coilovers, I had them on my GT, it was awful on a B road.
Little safety tip. When you remove a wheel, always place it under the car. That way if the jack were to fail in any way the car doesn't come down on you. Ask me how I know.
@@OrdinaryJoe12 LOL. Well maybe better to not crawl under it then. Mine's a bit of a story about how the car fell (not totally my fault) but the disc brake came within about an inch of cutting my toes off or at least crushing them if I had not put the wheel under the car.
@@neilg3364 Ok, you asked for it. Rhetorically? It was dark and stormy night. Literally. And when I say stormy I mean like biblical rain. It was so hard that I had to blink a lot because the rain drops hitting my eyes stung. Four of us were riding in the car of my friend's father. He was driving and saying how he didn't like to drive in the rain or the dark. I believe I even offered to drive. We came up to a detour where all three westbound lanes were shoved into the eastbound lane that was closest, only he didn't detour until it was too late. He hit the concrete curb of the median and launched the car. It hit so hard it flattened the front tire and bent the rim. He pulled over. We all got out. And as we stood getting drenched at the back of the car, all looking at the spare, I finally sprung into action since no one else was going to take action. I told the group very specifically and very emphatically to apply the hand brake. Maybe it was my fault by not singling out someone because, it didn't get done. When I removed the tire, I wasn't sure what to do with it and for the first time ever, I, for unknown reasons, decided to put it under the car. Maybe there is such a thing as a guardian angel. As I was working on the car, they were all talking at the back. Why they didn't get back in the car still puzzles me. Maybe they felt guilty that I was getting wet? Somehow during their conversation, someone leaned on the car, it came off the jack and onto the wheel I put underneath. This startled me as my foot was under the car at that instant and as I said earlier, the disc brake was about 1 inch (2.54 cm) above my toes. I don't know if say 800 lbs applied to a disk brake is enough to remove toes, but I'm certain it wouldn't have been pretty. I was very angry that no one was really doing anything useful, like applying the handbrake as I had asked. Anyway when we got to our destination, I was soaked from head to toe, even my underwear and my wallet were completely wet. But I had all my toes and the wheel always goes under the car now.
Jack. Took me a while to work out which roads you were on and at the very end I spotted it. That road to Charlbury with the right left and a dip and up the hill is great fun. Love the Alfa rasp on another really good video. Thanks.
@Antonio Farina Antonio, it will depend of how many miles you made in 5 years and the road conditions. I live in Brasil and my experience here where the distances are very large and the road conditions are not so good the bearings have a too short life when the wheels are positioned out of the original place. In São Paulo city is not uncommon to made 200 km in one day...
Jack, 2 points: Dunlop sp sport maxx rt2 Left side light bulb. Other than that, you are the one that makes me like the busso. Coming from m52/n52 owner
car note sounds awesome 😎 remember a mate of mine many moons ago bought one of these brand new and we went for a blast on the motorway, still remember how quick and throaty that engine felt and sounded . brought back some old memories that did 😉👍🏻😎
@Lassi Kinnunen yes of course I fully understand the transition the Busso has taken over the years I worked for Alfa Romeo for 12 years and owned several , my point being that through continual development it has stood the test of time
There’s much sort of archaic tech even in the ‘newest’ Bussos. What I like is there’s no variable valve timing on it. In a BMW you can notice the impact of Vanos and on a Honda of course the ‘VTEC kicks in yo’, but no such thing with the Busso - which adds to the pureness IMO.
The only way to enjoy him is stock. I’d get rid of the rear shocks/springs, they’re just not designed specifically for the car,forget the spacers, to much stress on associated parts, and like everyone says, tires. Doesn’t matter what mods you the only thing connecting you to the road is an inch or so of rubber. Great content and you seem a genuinely nice guy.
I have to agree with many of the other comments regarding the tyres. New rubber will have a very noticeable effect which will probably negate the use of the spacers. I would start with the tyres.
3 of my cars have 20mm spacers. Integrale (14 years), Elise (7 years), Syncro Country 2 years. I have never replaced any wheel bearings and all cars have decent miles on them. Never noticed any difference with the handling. Look way better. I have no problem slapping on wheel spacers to give a more stealthy look and keeping the wheels stock- Well apart from the country which has silly big Ronals. The GTA looks way better with the spacers!
So a manufacturer spends billions on car development and yet people think £20-200 spent in Halfords is an improvement. Just stay standard or use the manufactures upgrade options.
Just picked up the 147 GTA from Autodelta, pilot sport 4 all round and new suspension and it has transformed the ride and handling! Gives the 205 GTI a run for its money now because of the front diff! I can’t contain my excitement in the pick up vid! Loving the red btw, looks amazing!
Have spacers on my 3.0GTV - primarily so I can fit GTA teledials to the car, but the combination of these - decent tyres and the Q2 make the car feel like it's on rails. I remember my orignal 156GTA (RE02ELC - sadly no longer with us) I had from nearly new was an understeery beast without the Q2, but you can't beat a busso for engine noise and feel, love them to bits,
I don't know enough "technical" bits and bobs to advise.... but that engine and exhaust note sound awesome - yes.... from someone with a proper old school V8 under the hood 😆. I'm glad that you are replacing those tyres.... for reasons that others have already commented upon. Enjoying the series Jack 👍👍
We are on such similar trajectories....I’ve just fitted a spacer kit to the spider , 16mm at the front , and 20mm at the rear , looks a whole load better , “ seems “ a bit more compliant , got mine from Italy , hub centric and bolts included. Jury is out but I won’t be taking them off just yet, I need a few more miles to know for sure , but initial impressions were much the same as yours , the spider seems to be very sensitive to road camber and the spacers seem to accentuate this , more planted in corners and more direct and weighted steering. I’ve also a front strut brace . You seem to be starting to “ get “ the Busso , it’s not really about straight out power, the delivery is just so smooth and creamy , and that noise ...😍 A very special engine indeed , it elevates any car it’s in really . I look forward to the tyres , I think that’ll make quite a difference ...👍🏻
I had in mine and does a diference, issue is that increases the front tyres wear inside. What done a massive diference om mine was rhe bar between the shock absovers tops at the front and rear. Other thing is the front suspension arms of they go bad dont change them as the aftermarket ones even OEM are not as good and the threads wear out, just change the bushs for Powerflex and keep the factory arms. Had so many issues that i bought some factory used ones from someone that had new ones put on.
That was the Harry Metcalf S’s you drove through wasn’t it Jack? Great vid as usual 👏🏻👍🏼. FYI have spacers on my 996, fills out the arches but can’t say it drives any different
10 years ago my fav tyre was the Pirelli PZero. In wet Scotland they were fantastic. The only issue was getting them, ATS was one of the only places that would get me them without trying to sell me the asymmetrical version and old stock
I would only buy spacers for stance or to fit some aftermarket alloys . I think you might find the other spacer with x2 bolts is actually a wheel adaptor to fit to ca rfor an alloy with a different stud diameter.i,e 114.8 pcd alloy can fit a 100.
Aesthetically looks great but not sure I favour them based on wheel bearing stresses etc. As everyone is banging on about, get some decent rubber on all 4 corners (I know it will cost more but the rewards are worth it) something with a good wet weather rating too, and get the geometry set and I think you will find more love for the beast. But oh the sound of that engine, bloody lovely 🥰🥰
About the steering, check if all the bushs are ok in the front suspension, if everything is secure, and other thing if the steering is too light check the power steering fluid, if it is brown you need to flush ot and put new one and bleed the sistem, clean the canister very well as it has a filter inside that gets blockedm
Fantastic car, love the 147 especially the rarer ones, there's one called a Sport TS and people don't realise it handles even better than the standard 147, mine was called Figaro and on B roads my God it handled out arse whippings to everything from MX5's to 1 series nothing ever touched us but the car had been very poorly maintained before me and I ended up selling him for £300 and he was last heard of getting away from a police car a day after I sold him. Should've kept him, hate to think he got pushed into a lake or burnt, I hope you have great life with yours
Hey if the rear end of the car still feels hard look in to softer springs and when you get new tyres make sure the tyre pressure is correct it will make a difference.
Had one for 12 months. Had uprated koni suspension, QDiff, larger wheels with sticky tires and a cross member bar to add stiffness and it still struggled... Ultimately the chassis was too soft to handle the awesome engine with FrWD. Lovely sound though.
I believe the other version of spacer is available because when spacers get very wide there would be too much stress on the very long studs. I have had both on my cars, and I have come to the same conclusion as you. I have a feeling they also increase the wheel weight so acceleration and braking is slightly numbed but it definitely feels more stable through the corners. I’d say as long as you don’t go crazy there isn’t any problem so long as you get wheel centric spacers.
Had 1.5" wheel spacers on my 99 Toyota Avalon with its oem boaty suspensions. The cornering does feel a lot better in the back roads with the spacers on.
I haven't looked at the comments yet but I'm guessing there's a bunch of angry keyboard wizards who have never worked on a car telling you how unsafe a spacer is. Lol. I use them all the time and they are great if you need them. Love your content
Echoing the earlier warnings about spacers, especially if you are tracking the car. The thicker the spacer, the greater the stresses on the bearings. Also putting the spacers on only the front or the rear can be a tuning device. In general --+ too much understeer - add spacers to the rear wheels. Similarly, adding spacers to the front will decrease oversteer (increase understeer). This is a result of an increase of load transfer to the outside wheel with the spacer behind it.
To make mounting wheels easier with spacers your can get essentially a long wheel bolt without a head that you thread in as a guide and pull out when the wheel bolts are snug. Lot of German cars come with them in the tool kit.
I owned a 911 for about six years and I learned a bit about wheels and bolts. Apparently if you drive your car hard at a track day, these wheel bolts (or studs) can break. Hence I would be apprehensive about changing anything. Longer bolts. Nah. Invest your money in a case of Chianti. With my 911 I just applied a bit of silicon grease to the original studs -- so that the threads would not rust away in our cold Canadian winters.
Definitely looks better with spacers. Worth it for that alone. 20mm (40 in total) is quite a jump so you will accelerate wear on your wheel bearings and of course the tyres.
I'm not a fan of wheel spacers...the track was engineered that way for a reason. It will only put more stress on other areas, over time giving you more grief...Tyres man...Tyres ! Tyres are one of the "most" important aspects of a cars handling and performance. You could have the most powerful engine on the planet, but if your tyres are rubbish it means nothing. Cheers !
"the track was engineered that way for a reason" There is sometimes a little bit of variation in wheel offset that is still within tolerance. For example, old Subaru Imprezas were +55 offset on the factory wheels but aftermarket Speedline or Rays wheels made specifically for the Impreza WRX would tend to run a +49 offset. It's not uncommon for manufacturer special editions with widebody kits to accomplish the wider track **purely** through wheel offset, rather than through different hubs/control arms/steering: the Subaru 22B is an example of this. The wider track is done only via wheel offset, and the scrub radius on the steering and stresses on the wheel bearings is still within tolerance. :)
@@TassieLorenzo Point taken, however, if simple spacers made that much difference to the overall handling of a car, then why not engineer the car that way in the first place. Wheel offset, is not wheel spacers. Would the load be distributed differently from engineered wheels compared to add on spacers ?
Also another fact with spacers to consider is you are also increasing the weight the suspension has to deal with. The extra weight of the spacers and bolts is like bolting a much heavier wheel on the car. And god knows those oem Alfa cast wheels are not light weight, never mind with spacers and longer bolts fitted to the hub. You are creating more work for your eibach pro preset factory damping. As previously mentioned, when I decreased the unsprung weight by fitting forged lightweight wheels to my Alfa's wishbone chassis, ride quality improved.
Wider stance is achieved from wheel spacers which will equate to better handling...the center of gravity has changed with the offset therefore the bumps are not transferred to the shock absorber as before so usually spacers is good move.. The arguments about the ill effects of spacers on the wheels bearings could be so but same with deep offset wheels..
The only real benefit of spacers is clearance, to prevent wider rims from rubbing on brake calipers and other suspension bits. They'll move the contact patch outboard, (depending on the offset), which may affect the steering geometry. They'll also change the loading on parts of the suspension, (which is why they're technically illegal where I live), though modern engineering margins of strength probably render that inconsequential. As some of the other comments point out, reducing the unsprung weight is the goal, though it conflicts with rim and tire width aimed at increasing the contact patch. (As usual, with three goals, pick any two.)
Interesting. I never got on with the 20mm spacers on my B5 S4. The tracking would ‘wander’ in time. I’ve also read that using the type of spacer you prefer puts extra bending pressure on the longer bolts as they are obviously longer with more ‘unthreaded’ bolt not inside the threads. I also felt ‘subjectively’ that the S4 was much better in the corners when I went back to the OEM fitment. That being said, the B5 isn’t known for being a handling dream! Keep the videos coming.
@@Number27 It's not the bolts that hold the wheel against the hub... which sounds strange at first. When the bolts are tightened to the correct torque, in the right order, it's the friction between the wheel and the hub that keeps everything together. That's why you should never put any lubricant of any kind between wheel/hub/spacer... but many do, glad to see you didn't. You have fallen in love with the GTA... doomed. :)
Those spacers will have changed your scrub radius quite a bit. I guess alfa will have had to strike a balance with the geometry to keep bearing wear and such in check. Its definitely a science though.
Best way to diagnose a difficult suspension issue in my experience is to strip it completely and inspect/test each component independently. BTW wheel spacers wear out bearings quicker.
Spacers induce wheel bearing failure (as many have already said). If the tyres are as old as some comments imply, then more fool you for not changing them (even for cheapest chocolate). You come across as a capable mechanic with a good understanding of what are becoming "heritage" cars. Some of your selections I like and comment on, the ones that I dislike - out of respect for choice - I stay quiet on. In short, spacers are a lot of hot air, unless you are making a show car on the cheap.
not much power for the engine size u say i think a set of longtube headers and some fiddeling around with the engine management system sorts that out :)
Car looks good with the spacers, you could machine 5mm off if you’re not happy with them. Great choice with the Alfa, sounds awesome. Cheers from Down under.
Hi Jack, well you seem happy. Small outlay for small , but noticeable improvements. I get the theory, a wider stance offering more stability and less roll. However, you have increased unsprung weight and although by small amounts it's outside of the vertical axis of suspension. Possibly a penalty could be loss of traction when driven in extremis but for normal roads not so noticable. Might be even more improved with Q2 diff. Still smiles all round for now. Engine as always, sounds highly addictive!
The best thing I ever did was installing Novitec lowering sport-springs and spacers on my Ferrari California-T. The wheels fill the arches perfectly and the slightly lower stance looks awesome.
Well from an engineering standpoint spacers will: Decrease roll angle slightly. Subsequently decrease weight transfer slightly. Decrease the effective spring rate slightly. On the other hand, they will: Majorly increase the scrub radius (therefore the more steering feel but also the more torque steer). Hugely increase the thrust loading on the bearings. A good way to improve the handling on a car like this is to get adjustable bushings and get the geometry a tad more aggressive. But I cant still grasp the obsession of having a car running on normal street tires on bumpy roads without almost any downforce run very stiff anti-roll bars. All tires have a load vs coefficient of grip curves and cars like the gta which are very heavy on the front can easily overload the tires if you go very hard or very soft. In order to alter the mechanical balance of the car I would suggest to harden the front arb and soften the rear let a bit more body roll occur and let the suspension do its camber gaining magic. These car have rear suspension that aids steering by altering its geometry mid travel. In order to get travel when cornering, you need some body roll. Get the car softer and you wont be disappointed especially in the winter where tires NEED TO BE LOADED TO PERFORM
Have you driven another GTA to see if there’s a difference between yours and another? I know on my TVR the 8 year old tyres made handling horrible that was transformed with new rubber then a Geo set up transformed it more
20mm is a lot. It puts a lot of stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components. Looks good though. If you dial in some negative camber front and rear during an alignment that will improve turn-in, steering feel and prevent the tires from nudging the arches. Enjoyed the vid again, cheers.
The “ more stress on wheel bearings” saying is total bullshit. Then why do people put wider aftermarket wheels and tires. He would get the same wear and tear if he had fitted wheels that stuck out 20mm more than factory. But yet wider wheels or wheels with less offset is ok. 😂😂
