Ever since I got my 147 GTA I have fought against the brittle ride and chassis that feels like its not working properly. This week we get an update on progress and also see how getting the geometry and tracking done affects it all.
Got to admit it sounds so bloody good! When I was in the army stationed in Germany I was on the autobahn in my 1995 impreza turbo (208 bhp) and I was going pretty much flat out, an Alfa GTA just like yours flashed me out the way and went past like I was stood still! Will never forget it, always loved them. This car is sooooo good for channel.
A couple of years back I bought an MX5, nearly new, standard tires and shocks. It drove awful, like a family car but even worse, dead! So, I took it to Roddisons in Sheffield. He asked me what I expected of the car then got about adjusting it all up (and everything is adjustable) Well, that car was transformed !! Like a rat up a drain pipe! It loved bendy B roads and so did I after that. Best value for money mod you’ll ever get done on an MX5 for certain never mind tires and shocks get it aligned by someone who knows what they are doing.
UK Car RU-vidrs blight - the rain in Blighty ! .....Keep going and keep smiling, despite your wet cars I watch all your videos they are a little ray of sunshine.
It’s an Alfa, expert some quirks but that engine note is sublime! You’ve got yourself a beauty of a daily! Never get bored of that sound, the ride quality must be improving as it never looked out of sorts in the rain at all!
I would definitely experiment with the tyre pressures. I’d try going straight to the settings your Greek expert recommended and would be surprised if you didn’t notice an improvement in compliance. Could be a cheap fix!
Looks like a great car and sounds fantastic. I’m sure I’ve seen before people say a limited slip differential transforms the way the car puts the power down.
I too am a car junkie and after owning about 130 cars from age 16 to 70, have a few observations: I have tried every suspension mod that you can imagine and most end up too harsh, zero compliance and in general, are a pain in the a**rse. Without any doubt, unless you track your car, I would pass on coilovers. I would renew your suspension bushings, add a set of Bilstein high pressure nitrogen shocks and a set of H&R or Eibach progressive rate springs. This past summer I picked up a 1999 Jaguar XK8 with exactly that set up and immediately drove it 2200kms home. I LOVED every second of driving it and after two city blocks knew it was absolutely PERFECT............
Jack. The Alfa is doing what most of their cars have done for years and put smiles on your face for a while. Great video and explanation of the work. Looks fun to drive and sounds good
I reckon the only way you're going to improve the ride, without any adverse effects on handling, is to put different dampers on. Nothing hugely expensive, just a decent set from one of the well-known manufacturers. Torque steer is due to the change in scrub radius as I have mentioned previously.
I had Eibach Sport springs & Koni FSD dampers on my 156, as recommended to me by an Alfa expert & it transformed the car. Didn't stop it eating bushes, but it rode & handled fantastically well.
@@Number27 I also fitted the same set up on my Abarth 500 when I had that & tiny wheelbase aside, it also worked very well on that. I've got Eibach Pro springs & Bilstein B4 dampers on my Yeti & that's ace for that car. Initially I had B6s on but took them off as they were too firm. Now it's more progressive over really big bumps, but virtually OEM ride quality elsewhere yet with a decent step up in driveability. A bit too much body roll compared to a hot hatch maybe, but it'll certainly cover ground & it's lovely to drive with decent steering to boot. Cracking car.
I was surprised to find out the rear sway bar preload was adjustable. No WONDER compliance was so lousy in the rear - it was negating the softer part of the progressive springs. If the front is also adjustable, I would suggest you loosen the swaybar preload as much as possible. If that makes it understeer, add some preload in the rear sway bar.
That's great news! A wider stance and softer tire pressure will definitely give you the body roll enough to help steer the rear. I bet a quality pair of progressive adjustable shocks, or struts, would give you that fine tuning that seems to be lacking with such a forward minded design. Especially in the wet. I acquired alot of knowledge from my PlayStation consoles - Grand Tourismo 4 + 5, F1, etc. I did alot of racing! And fine tuning to be able to compete. This brings me right back to hrs of testing! Great fun. Cheerio!
It’s Jano at Autodelta, he did my 75 3.0 V6 Veloce back in the day, still the best fun handling car I’ve ever driven! Top guy and really knows his stuff! Take it down to see him!
I’ve got a 147 GTA and had a 147 Ducati Corse before it - it’s true what you were saying about the traction control. On the diesels, the TC is much harder to trigger as it was designed to work with the LSD, I almost never managed to trigger it on the road. The LSD confuses the TC on the GTA as it was never developed with it in mind, so it works much better with the TC off if you’re pressing on. Also, the rev limit is about 7250, if you’re hitting it at 6500rpm, something’s wrong (although I find I often hit it by mistake in 2nd).
Good work on the GTA! Only thing left on the list would be the suspension itself. Yes, the best kits would set you back a grand or two, but there are decent kits for less, like the Bilstein B12, if I recall correctly.
I really do think the noughties were a golden age of fast cars and the 147 GTA despite its flaws just shows how mad it was back then to stick such a big lump in a Hatchback. We shall not see their likes again so enjoy every second of the glorious soundtrack it delivers, You have something truly special and I hope it's stays in your garage for a long time.
The ride might not be 100% yet, but the sound of that V6 engine in Fredo is even better than the V6 TwinTurbo Borla Exhaust in my (also red) Stinger (although perhaps not quite as fast 😉) ! Thanks for sharing, stay safe and keep working at it, I'm sure it'll eventually be riding as it should.
@@blxtothis Good point! If number 27 is using this car in the UK winter he needs to get the underside steam cleaned and underbody wax protected ASAP! And spray the cavities (sills, chassis legs etc) with a cavity wax such Dinitrol 3125. For the underbosy I use Dinitrol 4951 although ANY Waxoyl type product would be far better than nothing!
It’s a learning curve. The hung to bear in mind is that it has the potential to switch ends quickly due to the speeds it will allow on entry to a bend, if you back off it’ll transfer the weight and have a light rear - be careful!! Fantastic car though, stick with it 👍🏼
One of the best things I did with my M140i was take it to Centre Gravity for a proper alignment. BMW did a shit job as did another motorsport place. They’re not cheap but they spend a lot of time on it. In terms of the GTA, what about something like a set of Bilstein dampers? They’re not expensive from the likes of Autodoc. That makes a fab noise.
About the ASR if the car had the Q2 retrofitted you cant have the ASR on otherwise the car behaves in a odd way, as will be fitting with the LSD. In mine i had disabled it in a way that will not give me any warning in the cluster. Spacers i had them since the cars new until was sold with 180 k kms and never had issues with bearings, the 147 bearings are really good stuff.
Hi 27, I enjoy your videos and have a small tip for you. You say “I forgot.... “ quite often. IE. Hight of car according Autodelta, tyre pressure. By the way it’s not just a Greek guy, he is the Obermeister, the Top Master! He’s got more talent and knowledge is his finger than many official ALFA-ROMEO engineers have in their entire body! His name is Jano Djelalian and believe me, where others have already given up, he hasn’t even started yet.
Agreed, I have GT with Q2 and traction control just make confused the car and doesn't let power put on the road, also "traction control on" prevent the Q2 to make its job.
The V6 in the Alfa is probably the best V6 on the road, not only performs well and sounds great it looks like a piece of art! I'm just a little surprised it doesn't handle as well as I thought it would being a small Italian pocket rocket with an LSD? Compared to the pug though the weight difference is the answer there as its light with a great chassis, they were always the beat handling hot hatch of the era for sure, that and the Lancia Delta Integrale were the two ultimate hot hatches.
@Number 27 36psi and 34psi is about right unless you're concerned about tyre wear - they wear the inside edges out faster at this pressure. You're right, the traction control likes to have a fight with the diff, they really don't understand each other due to the way the diff works; In simple terms, the Q2/Quaife sends power to the slowest spinning wheel until it looses traction. An open diff does the opposite and will continue to once it losses traction. The TC is anticipating a loss off traction on the fastest spinning wheel, applies the brake and starts a pantomime argument with the diff- You were going to loose traction, oh no I wasn't, yes you were, ad nausem... I always turn it off. Rev limiter is an absolute PITA, the red line is about 250 rpm higher than the limiter. I'd suggest a remap that raises the rev limiter to a genuine 7,200. There's no power gain but it makes it easier to keep up with it. (I put a 3.2 into a CF2 156 and tracked it. Hard. The standard 2.5 CF2 156 map will allow it to rev to 7,200.) Throttle response on the GTAs is also fluffy making it difficult to heel and toe the down shifts. The CF2's FBW map is much, much better. Suspension - I'd be wary of stiffening the back end to improve turn in. It works well on a 156 but I've had issues with the 147 snapping into oversteer at 100mph+ (Track) where it would normally just understeer. The extra wheel base does make a difference - think 309 v's 205.
We had a 147 gta that was looked after by Autodelta, they really know their 147's and the one thing that really made a huge difference was when we had the LSD fitted (it didn't push into corners as much if that makes sense) they also did an alignment which made a massive difference. I would sugest going to Autodelta and asking if they would let you drive one of their cars with the LSD fitted etc and see what you think. TBH if i was advising some one thinking of buying a GTa the LSD would be a must.
Glad to hear you're getting there with taming the beast, to get a feel for how a 147 can handle try a T Spark version, it won't go like the GTA but it'll fly around tight corners with the best of them.
My car is at my storage place so I can't check, but pretty sure std pressures are 36 front and 32 rear. I did some experiments with a temp reader when I got the car, and that's pretty much right for the road and what I always run. Might vary a little with tyre, and suspension setup, but it's a good baseline to start from.
8:57 rev limiter should be at about 7K, but less when it’s cold. Mine (156 GTA) is at about 7.2K, but I suspect that has had some ECU tuning in the past. Knowledgeable people say it can easily run at 8K all day, but with standard cams there’s no point, you’re quite a bit past peak torque by then.
Any modern car dubbed "sports" will have a suspension/tyre system designed by engineers with all the sophistication of the Flintstones. That's just how it is.
Try to check if shortened bump stops have been installed. If someone slapped lowered suspension with factory length bump stops, suspension will always ride at the bump stops and both ride comfort and handling will be absolutely terrible. Your experience with spacers suggests that either spring rate or damping (or both) is too stiff for the car and too long bump stops may very well be the cause of the problem.
I had exactly the same car but with the tan seats...... I have incredible good memories of it but I do remember thinking “how can the ride be so stiff yet it rolls around the corners”!!
Try having the suspension put in negative camber to increase the footprint of the tyres at speed,I had a modified fiat 128 and the suspension was set this way and it was a demon especially through the bends and also fitted were front and back strut braces.possibly might work for this car.
I've got a 156 gta sw. Its going in for some work in may and one things that happening is that it's getting some KV1 coilovers. Itll be interesting to see what results of that as I've only heard good things about them. It has the quaif already
Always fancied a GTA. I’m in car trade have had and have now my own oddities. Even own an XL1. Wouldn’t mind buying your GTA once you’re done with her for YTube. Take care. My girlfriend asked the story PJ bottoms. I explained Influenzo series and she just said why. Lol. And I’ve insane horn for an Evora 410/430 in trade and one won’t come up right money
A bit of toe-out will make it more pointy, whereas toe-in is like doing a snow-plough while learning to ski - ultimate stability. The down-side is increased wear on the inner shoulders. V6 156s in particular ran a lot of toe-out to counter the mass of the engine and consequently could wear through to the cords on the inside shoulders within 10,000 miles.
39/36 is a very high pressure by all means. You're not going low by lowering to 36. You might even get some more grip out of your new softer sidewall tires for the upcoming winter.
Have Eibach spacers on front axle on my 159 ti and tpi on rear all hub centric, for 4 years no issues. 12mm rear 16 mm front, as long as no grease dirt is on hub or spacer all is good, and correct length bolts and torque them to spec.
Great video as usual, sounds like the shocks and/or springs are too stiff for the local B-roads. Maybe try sourcing OEM suspension on the cheap to see if that's any better? Probably wont handle as well though, always a tradeoff with these things. If you find there's too much understeer/not enough rotation then stiffen the rear bar again. This will give the front end more grip because it will experience less weight transfer across that axle.
Hey, I got an almost completely stock 147 GTA, I think the OEM setup is really good with good tires and just thick anti roll bars. Because lets be honest when you lower the car, you sacrifice a lot of comfort and driveablity. I would say go back to bilstein b4 with stock coils, and big antirollbars for best real world performance.
That Lusso V6🥰 I'd continue to play with the tyres pressures. They do seem awfully high. Try Autodeltas advice and maybe a little lower. That should definitely help the secondary ride. The only other option is lighter wheels and brakes.
Why do drivers think they are better at steering geometry than the qualified design engineers who built the cars originally ? You mess with suspension and steering at your peril, there is often a downside to modifying a standard car too much. We often see this also with the top supercars where people fit non-standard exhausts and get a loud noise and increased fuel consumption and those that modify the suspension on a Lotus or McLaren , well ......I find it interesting.
It's perfectly reasonable to make changes if you know what you're trying to achieve. EVERY manufacturer builds their cars to take into account the dopey drivers that are likely to drive them, they have no choice but to cater for the worst/most disinterested drivers, so there will always be room to make standard cars better for keen drivers by making sensible mods no matter which manufacturer you're talking about. Obviously manufacturers know how best to make cars that are safe and appeal to the widest number of customers, but that certainly doesn't somehow make the cars perfect, they're a compromise based on a set of priorities. If you or I have different priorities then we will want different setups, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
@@pjay3028 As I said......I find it interesting. Also interesting that when the garage adjusted the steering geometry they put it back to standard tolerances.
@@pjay3028 Do as you wish, I simply find it interesting. I prefer to just buy a performance car and leave it standard. My days of building cars and adjusting suspension are in the past.
36 PSI is way too high, I run 33 front and 31 rear on my GTA with stock suspension and it handles like a go kart. Not really sure why people think its necessary to put coil overs on as the suspension is designed to work together really well from factory...
My wife has a 147,2.0 t spark 2007 and she loves it but me as a mechanic for thirty odd years have always thaught the suspension is crap i have had to replace the whole lot over the 5 years of ownership she had a rear shock rot out causing the spring cup collapse and cut a rear tyre virtually in half all the drop links on the anti roll bar front and rear front upper and lower wish bones due to loose ball joints and it still feels like the wheels are not connected to the car when yuo drive it hard but as she brives like mrs daisy it is not a problem if i could get it to drive like my old alfa sud green clover leaf i would be a very happy bunny.
Mine wasnt like that, was a bit hard but was confy and i had factory suspension. But yes they are a bit jumpy at the rear because of the heavy engine in the front. When i changed to the Eibach Pro Kit got harder but was liveable lol.
I know your transverse links are poly bushed but check the bush where the radius arm joins the hub. Power flex did not do that bush, but strong flex do (011705), I changed that and it got rid of shimmying in the rear end. Looking at the footage of you driving the suspension is way too stiff. In my experience people always go too stiff thinking hard is fast (often it is not). I suspect both the damping and the springs are too stiff. I would be careful about throwing money at the problem as too many of the kits you can buy go the make it stiff route at whatever price as this is what people think they want. If it was me I would get some second hand front units off of a 156 2.5 v6 and some rear units off of a normal 147 and fit them as a TEMPORARY measure. That will give you a baseline to work up from without spending huge sums (and may pleasantly surprise you). At the moment you are just guessing where to start - you could go and get a new set of springs 15% softer and find you needed to go 30% and any dampers really need a rate that is in the right zone for the spring. You need to get it sorted though as if you try living with what you have the car will be too harsh to comfortably use as a daily.
I'm afraid the only way your going to fix this is to renew the suspension (dampers, springs and rubbers). I don't think you need to go so far as a set of Ohlins, but what your feeling is the suspension not being able to keep the tyres on the road surface when you hit a bump.
What totally transformed my Fiat Coupe 20VT (virtually same car under the skin as You know) was a lower tranverse brace from OMP (for Alfa 156/155), as it completely removed torque steer.
cheap fix [well - worth a try] cut your bumpstops about 1 inch shorter at rear .spent 2 months trying allsorts on my brothers car for a similar ride issue and 5 mins with a hacksaw blade fixed it
Take it to Alfa Workshop / Jamie Porter: they know how to 4 wheel align and set the GTA up (they have set enough up and have the optimum figures) also Jamie said ‘the’ best tyre for this car is Michelin Sport Pilot 4 and god was he right. Trust me I’ve had my GTA for 15 years now and know what I have now is the best set up.
Put it back to factory spec I reckon - all suspension including bushes. Remove the spacers. Drive it for 6 months and get to know how Alfa intended the car to drive. At this point your bushes will need changing, so now fit Powerflex (an accepted mod) and see if you like them or not. They do last longer, but don't improve the ride in my honest opinion, but who wants to change bushes every 6 months? You have a future classic car there which is appreciating in value, but needs to have the bodged up bits removed.
The fact that TC feels worse with the spacers is somehow normal. Because it's acting with throttle and brakes I presume, with the spacers, the torque steer works both ways, and because it's reacting rapidly to try regain grip, it upsets the axle. It reminds me that 3 series e36 chassis couldn't have TC with lsd by the way. About the shocks, I like bilsteins, they might be a bit crashy at low speeds when new, but they work really well, and you can revalve them at your specs, can be rebuilt forever etc.
@@Number27 From all the shocks I've tried in the past, sporty or oe replacement, Bilstein have been great so far. I don't know how they would feel on UK b roads, but to be honest, b6 even with h&r race springs, on a bumpy country road, from 50mph and above, they felt great with the right pace. Only thing is that I need new shock mounts because after 5 years, the rubber is letting go little by little.
On BMW E46 the ECU has a setting LOGIK_HA_SPERRE which should be flipped to active/aktiv if the car gets retrofitted with a limited slip differential. But I don't know how smart that algorithm is, from what I've seen most people turn off traction control anyway.
If that was a bike I'd be slowing down the rebound straight away. I've no idea what suspension you have and if it has any adjustments like that available. Sounds great at the limiter!
As a Citroen driver for the last 30 years....have been moving just on Hydropneumatic over the roads....i see you like the sporty stuff...but if you want to experience perfect damping and rebound...try a Citroen or Peuguet from the 70`s or 80`s.....Nurburgring will be the last thing on your mind....these Alfa`s were always hard riding....again...Nurburgring....the Shumi legacy......ride comfort is irrelevant....keep it up mate...luv your stuff
This is what makes the Giulia Quadrifoglio so good, it has a brilliantly well damped and supple ride. And all the handling and performance too! rev limiter should be at 7k??
You have a tiny Alfa 147 with a HUGE 3.2 Busso engine, and you are surprised that it understeers ??. Hey, I’m an Alfa owner and can honestly say that they engineer a car to be as good as it can be, out of the factory, the more you mess with them, the worse they will be. My advice is, keep it stock, no wheel spacers, no silly suspension, just good tyres, good alignment, replace any worn bushes and away you go. Beautiful car though, btw. Always wanted the 147 GTA.
A great little car dominated by a cracking engine. Regarding the Rev limit (6.5k approx.), have you considered a remap i.e CelticTuning or similar. C.T's remap seems to offer around 20bhp but more importantly they can remove the 6.5k rev limit. Might be worth an enquiry?
