Once again Dave is the most sensible wrestling fan on social media .. we need more people like Dave within the IWC.. people who use logic and reason over emotion 💯💯💯💯
I want to agree with you but I just can't. Roman's story falls apart once he isn't the champion. He needs the belt to be the head of the table. Nobody would question the Rock about being the real tribal chief if Roman wasn't the undisputed champion.
@@RevBman7 no one said best. I said biggest. Eddie vs. Rey curtain jerked Summerslam. It might have been your favorite angle of that pay per view, but it wasn't the biggest match. What I'm arguing against is scenarios like WM26, and WM28, where the main event didn't involve the belt. There shouldn't be mid-card world champions. It's counter intuitive. If HBK/ Undertaker is your main event, one of them should be wearing a belt. It shouldn't be on Jericho in the fourth most important match on the card.
@@jonathon862 Ok thank you for the clarification but I still think that is impossible. The general purpose of the business is creating main eventers that all draw a lot right? The belt would have diluted the Taker vs Michaels match, it adds an unnecessary element. The belt really doesn't matter too much at that level of Taker and Michaels. Triple H has like 4x the world title reigns of Shawn Michaels but is probably only half the draw and legend Michaels is. The belt is a tool to get guys over in the main event scene and nothing else. Its a great plot device to generate feuds out of nothing if guys dont have legitimate history. But again nothing else than that.
I don't like how it was set up, but Roman vs Rock kinda doesn't work without the title. It's just beyond me why WWE didn't have The Rock win the Rumble, at least that would make sense. People would probably hate it, but I'd prefer that over the movie man rocking up to work one day and going "Yeah, title match pls" Either way, I guess the best way going forward would be to book Cody vs Seth at Mania for the World Heavyweight title, have Cody win, then have Judgement Day cash in kickstarting his feud with them until he's drafted to SmackDown, where he then earns himself one last chance at the WWE Undisputed Title against Roman Reigns at Summerslam. Cody's definitely the biggest full time babyface in the WWE right now, so I'd argue that he's perfect for the main prize since he's been booked to be on that level. I'm also fine with Roman vs Cody vs Rock cause I'm not super confident that The Rock can last long in the ring anymore, unless they go for a shocker match and have Reigns demolish The Rock in a few minutes.
Mind blown.. Great video and great arguments made. Take Wrestlemanias 8, 11, 20, 21, 24, 26, 28, 33 (not counting 35 in this one), and 37 where the WWE Championship did not close out or main event the show. It makes sense that it some cases, the bigger story or marquee match should be the featured or lasting impression of a shows memory. The issue here, though, is that of consistency. The WWE for the last 2-3 years have had their chance to book Rock vs. Roman to no avail due to scheduling and timing. In that time, we have become heavily invested in Cody, from his big return against Seth. To the pectoral injury... his winning of 2 consecutive Royal Rumble matches and failing at WM39 and coming back at 40 to win the belt they took from his dad. Although I agree with you on the value and representation of the Championship and what it really is, one thing that I think you left out is that it's also a storytelling device. Its value in the story is the reason we as fans are invested and buying tickets. Honestly, what would it mean to win the Royal Rumble going forward if you win it to the main event of the show of shows unless some bigger star wants to interject themselves ahead of you? Here's what we know, Seth Rollins is a lame duck champion right now with that knee injury. Cody Rhodes deserves to be the WWE Champion. The Rock as amazing as he is, as well as Roman is a match in my opinion 1-2 years too late. And NO, it doesn't need the Championship. However, Cody does. And defeating the unstoppable champion that cheated him last year is the story that means more to us fans. I get generating dollars, but this booking idea kills the value of Cody Rhodes, Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, and any Royal Rumble winner going forward. They could book Roman and Rock for Perth and move it into a stadium. This to me just feels wrong despite everything you said (which is valid and makes the bottom dollar point), and I feel very cheated. Ironically, it was exactly 10 years ago that WWE did the same thing with Batista vs. Orton then made it into a triple threat.
I did leave out the value it has in the story intentionally because that's for marks, and I approach this, always remembering what this industry is. Furthermore, while I understand the belief that happy fans buy things, it's really not true or if it is then the difference is negligible. Through the years, no matter how loud the fans complain, WWE keeps on making bank. They cried about the Saudi deal, but WWEs stock went thru the roof. They complained about Roman getting pushed while he was a top merch seller, and he has only improved since then. They groaned about the low ratings, but WWE just made 5 billion off of Netflix. Corporate deals make more money than all the combined fans ever could. I've said it before, but fans need to understand how little we matter to WWE. And theres no point in caring about it so passionately when they don't even care about us at all
I don't think it'll make more money. Roman costs more money, and whatever Night One is, no one is expecting Roman to drop the belt, so it's not like it'll draw more
The belt doesn't make the man, the man makes the belt. I mean... You're not wrong. GUNTHER doesn't feel like a huge star because he has held the IC belt for so long. The IC belt now feels important again for the first time in as long as I can remember, *because* it's being held by GUNTHER.
Great video Dave. I do wonder on one thing abot the rock im hopeful he's got one match in him but its been many years since he's been in the ring and we might be looking at another cm punk with rock injuring himself in the match and not being able to wrestle again to defend the title
I think titles give wrestling a competition nature. If there were no titles it would be like going to the circus. Some things at the circus is a special attraction. That would be the Adre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, etc. That's how I see it.
Why even have Cody then at this point? I feel like they literally hired Cody for absolutely nothing. If you were never going to have Cody beat Roman Reigns, then why have him even win the Royal Rumble back-to-back anyway? Hell why even have Seth Rollins even being a top guy with a championship belt at this point anyway? It puts into question everything worth a damn in the company.
By that logic why did Cody ever found AEW? To sum up a point I made in this video, fans put too much of the wrong kind of emphasis on the belt and then somehow insist that kayfabe doesn't exist anymore
With the all the heat on The Rock for replacing Cody Rhodes at Wrestlemania, I wonder if he'll appear as Hollywood Rock or some variation of it? Such an underatted version of him. It was funny because he only did a few films and thought he was a big Hollywood star but now with how many films he has done since then, it can work. You may dislike the guy, but can't deny that he is a money and viewership drawer. I'd like to see heel Rock one more time even for a short spell. One one of the few wrestlers that can pull off being a heel and babyface. Corporation Rock is out of the question unless they give him an almost realistic wig complete with those iconic sideburns to hide his baldness.
@@ShaunInce123 The Rock knows how to draw a crowd whether they boo or cheer him so why not do some heel work after being a babyface for so long? We don't know how much he has left in the tank to wrestle so maybe he can be a heel for this run to get the fans even more behind Cody.
I think part of the problem is that people are going, "but it's the Rock, he's gonna draw" when, to put it bluntly, his stock has taken so many hits in the time since he last challenged the dominant guy who people were growing sick of. You had the fact he couldn't get Roman over, you have more people finding out that Dwayne is a crap actor (especially once Dave started to get rolling after Guardians) with contractual stipulations that he can't even suffer an L on screen in a movie due to the Fast and Furious movies being the only thing with him that people watched since Moana (2016), or going live action Walking Tall (2004). And only one of these is from the world of wrestling, the rest makes me actually wonder if he's really a draw and TKO pressured Paul to book it or if Dwayne Johnson thinks he's still a draw and used his shares to influence people to get creative to book that spot.
As it pertains to recent events, does Rock vs Roman need the title? Probably not. Would I be mad if it was for the belt on the line? I wouldn't be mad at all. Also you're right, not everyone needs to have won the WWE championship to have a great career, there's many examples of that. Everyone seems to be caught up in giving everyone a championship run, regardless of whether or not they're over enough or as big as a draw to warrant it.
Agreed, there's a lot of guys who don't need the world title, but I'd argue Cody is the only guy worthy, since he is the most over full time babyface in the company, even more than LA Knight, and he has been booked on that level, so it wouldn't diminish the title, and if anything I think it would raise Cody's profile to being a megastar, the Hogan of the current generation, with Reigns being the perfect foil until Gunther starts tearing down main event talent and wins the world title in like a year or two.
Im not a mark for Cody or a big cody fane here. But the thing that upset me with Cody the most is that WWE cleary had a path or direction with last year WM. WWE changing their plans out of nowhere just seems so inconsistent and incomplete. I just wanted WWE to stick with their original plan. I would be upset with any wrestler put in Cody position too, not just cody. Because if you have a plan for so long. It seems so odd when you cancel the plan out of no where. But on the business side of things. I understand why the Rock vs Roman is a big match though.
Rock called out Roman before Cody won the Rumble. They had merch made up for it, which sold well. Plus Rock was supposed to go against Roman at 39. So if anything Cody took Rock's spot
Only the people in WWE know what the original plan is, not the viewers consuming the product. You can assume what the actual plans are, but it doesn't mean it's correct.
That is true that the fans don't know what the original plans were. And in this case, we should remember that the sword cuts both ways. However we do know Rock called out Roman prior to the Rumble and that merch was made for it. And Rock said it himself that he was slated to go against Roman at 39
I understand how people feel, back in the 80s and 90s stuff like this didn’t happen the problem here is the Rock is not a current Superstar Cody won the right for this match.
I can see both sides. The title definitely is an important use for making the match feel high staked, but this feud is also interesting enough to be without the title because this is about bragging rights as to who really deserves to be the head of the table. How WWE portrayed this is Roman, holding the title for 3 years, has the right to call himself one of the best that WWE has to offer so even if he loses the title, he still beat pretty much EVERYONE on the roster so he could be in a situation where he can cement his legacy by beating The Rock with or without the title at this point. However WWE does make mistakes so who knows. I can’t really say which one I fully pick just yet.
@@jbellflower83 Everything’s all good. A bit rocky but that’s life. I’m alive and well so I can’t complain. Hopefully you’re doing good as well Sweep 🤟🏿
There is a lot of valid points regarding big time pushes and needing the belt here but the problem is this is not exactly applicable to Roman vs. Rock in the slightest, Rock is already a mega star; he's such a huge mega star that he not only superseded Wrestling and became a movie star; he is literally a part of the TKO holdings board whose appearances guarantee to spike ratings no matter what. Saying a dream match of Roman vs. Rock needing the belt is like saying that a million dollar mansion with 3 swimming pools needs four to be a really good mansion.
@@DaveKnowsWrestling And that begs the question, is this main event gonna give them the money so desire? Because a lot of people, even according to backstage reports are deflated by the decision to go forward with Rock vs. Roman as if Wrestlemania needed saving, which it really didn't. Looking at the card; the matches were pretty stacked. Owens vs. Logan Paul in a US Title rematch. Hogan potentially coming back for the Andre the Giant Battle Royale. Literally anyone else could have fought Seth Rollins, including McIntyre, AJ Styles, Randy Orton, or even L.A. Knight whose plans for the event are STILL in question as we speak. Assuming Gunther still is IC champ going into 'Mania, you got a good Marquee match there with whomever at this point. Rock not only still makes movies but is a part of one of the biggest Wrestling/MMA companies in the world making millions already on the fly. People talk a lot about how the Vince McMahon scandal is influencing the TKO brand but I must call that into question because I see no one ever attribute what he [allegedly] did to TKO, only to him and what the people [allegedly] involved did. If TKO is losing money it is because of various wasteful things that hadn't changed when Vince lost control like having Live Events take place at venues just as large as their televised shows; or dumping loads of money into contract signings that ultimately will go nowhere and just to have them, and so on.
You're falling prey to the classic internet mentality that everything is either one side or the other. No one with any intellect is suggesting that WM needs saving. However, corporations want to simply maximize their earning potential. They always have to see if they can make more. And with few exceptions, repeat WM Main Events typically gross less than the original. While it is still guess work, the math and reasoning are sound. The Rock is a bigger draw than Cody as well as a load of other reasons that I already stated previously. And as for your so-called "backstage reports" I trust those about as far as I can throw Braun Strowman. And even if "they" are deflated, how does that effect profit, which as established is all corporations care about
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Except I am not? I don't really believe you have a stake or claim in the matter, you were simply saying why this was happening and I can acknowledge the reasons but I don't have to accept them as sound because from a business sense. It has been confirmed however that was the corporate mindset behind the decision, according to TKO at least that with Punk's shoulder injury being the main reason why they went through with it; they think with Punk out of the Mania picture and without some big time star like him or Rock, the event is doomed. Again, this is not me making stuff up, it's being reported everywhere essentially. It's true Corporations do want to maximize their earnings potential but sometimes you have to call a bad business decision for what it is, because there are loads of people who are not going to watch Mania this year because of it unless they make the change to what was clearly originally planned. This was honestly one of those rare cases; objectively speaking of course, where a rematch from last year would have made sense because of the lack of build up to the main event from last years perspective and it did not feel like a personal struggle for Cody or Roman going into it when it should have. Hence why I was one of the few who argued it was good that Roman won last year so Roman could lose and Cody's victory feels more triumphant. But unless WWE pulls a Daniel Bryan (and if they do wanna save WM like they wish to according to reports, they would be smart to), this will hurt any good will for HHH's time as a booker and the company of TKO and have the opposite effect that they think it will have.
I have not seen an actual statement straight from TKO on their creative decision in this matter. If one exists I would find that beneficial. I also agree with you that a bad business practice can be called out and should be called out. Additionally I also agree that a lot can change from now to Mania and it might just do so. However, I am not certain that no one will watch Mania. Fan vitriol tends not to be the best indication of how well something does financially. While that may be the case here, it may not be, we will have to see. Although I'm not so certain this plan will negatively effect WWE from a money perspective.
Rock vs Roman does not need the belt when they can compete for who is the real tribal chief. If you are going to book it for the title however, you shouldn’t do it at the cost of a 2 year old story just so you can have a temporary boost in sales that will last for about a month at best before the casuals go away again.
The belt is an accomplishment why do people say that it's so annoying. Like Dave said a champ is the face of a company if it wasn't an accomplishment then why can't Dave for example just walk in to a company a get the world title on his first day i mean it don't mean shit right. Smfh
Just because you can't do something right away doesn't make it an accomplishment. Babies can't burp themselves, that doesn't mean we need to celebrate every belch
*YOU* could walk in and get the world title on your first day because, and get this: pro wrestling is NOT a shoot combat sport, where you actually have to prove yourself with strikes and holds. The booker could easily just say "I like ya!" and boom: you got the world title on your first day. You want meritocracy? Watch MMA. Pro wrestling is NOT the place for that.
Dollars and cents is (aside from my personal feelings) why I think the Rock vs Roman should NOT be at Wrestlemania. Wrestlemania is Wrestlemania, the building is going to sell out, it's going to get a 1 month sub to Peacock, people are actually going to pay their cable serrvice to order the PPV BECAUSE it's Wrestlemania. The amount of people who weren't going to buy Wrestlemania but now will just because the Rock is in the main event is small potatoes compared to the overall number. And to get those people he doesn't have to wrestle Roman for the title, he could squash Solo, or be the host, or do literally anything: they just want to see the Rock. With that said: imagine if they saved Rock and Roman for Summer Slam. I feel like the Rock might actually be able to boost those numbers with the "I only watch Wrestlemania" crowd joining in. Leaving feelings out: Roman could even still be the champion by then if they felt the title would make a difference. What the Rock DID do for me personally though, was make me view Cody Rhodes as a babyface for the first time since he came to WWE (or even before, because I didn't like him in AEW either).
No one is saying WM isn't going to do well on it's own. But you are severely down playing that the sales do fluctuate year to year and why. Plus even if Rock raises the event by a dollar more, corporations still rather have that dollar. And I completely disagree that where he is on the card doesn't matter. By your logic, if Roman and Cody wasn't for the title and it was on the preshow, while the main event was JD vs Akira it should make the same amount of money if Cody/Roman was the main instead
I'm sorry, I disagree that the man makes the championship. Roman Reigns is nothing without the championship. He is the "guy" because Vince put the belt on him and told everyone that he was more important than other wrestlers. The championship made Roman Reigns.
Then it would appear that you missed a part right in the beginning of the video where I addressed exactly this. And if he's nothing without the title then he doesn't deserve it in the first place.
The rock can use his executive powers and strip the title off of Roman. Elimanation chamber match for the vacant championship. Cody faces the new champ at wrestlemania. Infact I hope The Rock turns heel, he should be a combo of Corporate Rock and Hollywood Rock.
Well I appreciate your acceptance of criticism. That's a powerful gift. And the only reason why I say it's not good, is just because stripping him is anti-climactic and it also prevents WWE from truly capitalizing on potential revenue
To be fair, Piper was mostly done with wrestling by 1987 to go make movies. Also, other faces simply didn't challenge Hogan for the title until Ultimate Warrior. That rules out Steamboat for a run with the WWF Title since he was done with the company after WM IV. You can't really compare guys whose main WWF runs occurred during Hogan's first title reign with WWE lifers whose careers occurred during the watered down two-belt era of the 2000s. Steamboat is ten times the in-ring storyteller Daniel Bryan is and look how many bricks were shit when people thought the latter was going to get passed up for Batista at WM XXX.
I will never understand the internet's need to use the phrases "to be fair" and "you can't compare." Further more, way to completely miss the point of that entire section
As awful as the build to that Triple H/Jericho title match was, I disagree about Hogan/Rock needing the title. For one thing, it seems like more people would have a reason to buy the next PPV if they saved Hogan winning the title for that event. The other thing is they probably didn't expect the crowd to erupt to that level. They were obviously leaning in the direction of giving Hogan another run as a face (with or without the belt) before WrestleMania, or else he would not have requested the NWO to not interfere in the match. Unless I am misremembering the build to WrestleMania XVIII though, I do not think fans started cheering for Hogan and booing Rock until the match itself. The massive reaction during the match sealed Hogan getting his nostalgia run with the title. Also, in 2002, Hogan had only been inactive for a year and a half. Rock has had one three-second match in eleven years. I do not even hate Rock/Roman. I assume the Cody situation will resolve itself somehow, or else they would not have led everyone to believe he was going to challenge Roman, only to pull the rug out from under him. However, celebrity part-timer Rock vs. Bloodline Roman is still magnitudes below peak Rock vs. Hogan (three years removed from the peak of the NWO) in terms of being a matchup everybody wants to see. I never got the big deal about Triple H. He was a guy on the level of 1990 Mr. Perfect in terms of overall ability. Not that he ever had the charisma of Mr. Perfect, but his skillsets worked during the Attitude Era. He just happened to come along at a time when it was obvious Austin's neck was not going to hold up, and Rock already had one foot out the door. Brock also turned out to be a guy who had no passion for the business. Timing is everything.
@@DaveKnowsWrestlingyeah, I don't know where he got that idea. Perfect was one of the best bumpers (maybe THE best) ever and a solid technician. Triple H is neither of those things.
Charisma....in-ring personality....Mr. Perfect. He was too chill to do those twenty-minute show opening promos on RAW, which for some reason was a big deal during Hunter's reign of terror. West Texas Rednecks aside, which was more of a comedy deal, I also can't picture Mr. Perfect being a leader of a douchebag faction like D-X or Evolution. Mr. Perfect was better doing his own thing or as a merc in a bigger group like the NWO. I should have just said in 1990, Hunter never would have rose above heel Intercontinental Champion. I was trying to not totally write him off as a brown-nosing boss's daughter-marrying piece of crap. I'd also put Rude over Hunter, who I personally prefer over Mr. Perfect, and who would have fit in perfectly during the mid-90s or Attitude Era. Come to think of it, the Big Gold Belt that Hunter introduced in 2002 without any kind of match or tournament was functionally no different than the Million Dollar Belt. DiBiase=also vastly superior to Hunter.
1 WARREN ARE YOU WRITTING A SCRIPT OF A MOVIE 2 HHH CANT EVEN LACE UP THE HENNING FAMILY'S BOOTS 3 TELL ME A TRIPLE H NORMAL MATCH THAT IS BETTER THAN ANY MR PERFECT MATCH
