4:55 Hogan stepping through the middle rope may have been partly due to how WWE wanted fans to perceive him, but also Andre the Giant hated other wrestlers stepping over the top rope. Andre considered that his thing. Big John Studd doing it pissed off Andre. Braun Stroman doesn't have to worry about Andre unless he's worried about a ghost.
Face and heel turns are also a thing that requires some wrestling literacy, as the way they happen, they are quite unique to wrestling. While movies, books and games also have stories about betrayals or redemption, they usually don't negate the character's story up to the turn. In wrestling the instant someone turns face, all sins are forgiven, while the instant a wrestler turns heel, all heroics are undone.
Something that I've been noticing is that WWE is starting to dial it back on this. When Jey Uso finally broke free of The Bloodline, most people were willing to let bygones be bygones, because they saw Jey as a victim of abuse… except for Drew McIntyre, who lost a shot to win the title _because_ of The Bloodline, and thus still held a grudge against him. Likewise, when Damage Control finally turned against Bayley, and she needed someone in her corner, Bianca Belair basically said, "Nah-uh. Who was it that made my life a living hell in the past few years? Damage Control. Like *hell* I'm helpin' you out!" I really hope that this is a trend that continues, because I like it when stories have continuity-and I'm sure that most fans do, too. People popping about how Roman could still be champ if not for the grudge he *still* had against Seth for a decade, and thus targeted him instead of Cody in their match is proof of that.
Not necessarily forgiven. Alex Shelley in ROH was such a heel, who began turning face. All while showing the inner conflict of old habits to win or trust that his skill set alone would help him topple his opponent. One such match was him vs. a face C.M. Punk, who turned after a long heel's journey, by helping his former enemy Ricky Steamboat against Shelley's former stable, Generation Next.
Remember on night 1 when Cody hit him with 2 Cross Rhodes, but Rock intercepted the third with his belt. Roman was up only 10 seconds later, basically no selling the 2 finishers he just received
Excellent video. As a wrestling enjoyer with a (shoot) PhD, I tell people that wrestling is worth thinking about because it's the American form of folk theatre, much like the morality plays of medieval Europe, kabuki in Japan, or the Ram leelas of India.
For sure, wrestling is theater in the round, very interesting how it’s background in the carnival informed the willingness to incorporate entertainment and theatrics. Without carnies working matches to get the attendants money the wrestling we know today may have never developed. A lot of very unique history in professional wrestling, a unique blend theatre and athletics developed out of a unique carnival subculture.
I definitely think selling has been way over the top in America the last few decades. It's just too much and not at all how you would react to being hurt. People like Ishii still sells at a high level
I would say the language of wrestling has changed rather than that we don't understand wrestling now. It's not as though every old match had a perfect commitment to all of these things. People were kicking out of extreme things many years ago. Every move can't be a finisher forever. I'm not saying nothing matters. I actually think people act shocked at a 2 count way too often. There are plenty of things that can improve but personally I wouldn't look to the past for a solution.
@@DaveKnowsWrestling because its the nature of escalation. The business has always been about showing people something new. because if its the same match over and over people lose interest. so with promoters constantly feeling the need to raise the stakes over time moves that were once Finishers end up diluted. because as much as you build up a finisher eventually someone has to kick out of it. because the new guy has to go over and has to be better than what came before him
@@DaveKnowsWrestlingyou didn't really address vari's other points. But yeah personally i enjoy modern wrestling. It's not perfect (the only show worth watching is wwe imo, and among other things a lot of wrestlers nowadays are just plain generic. Add on to that the fact that outside of ppvs your not really gonna enjoy the actual wrestling most of the time.) But they are great wrestlers out there. Even outside of wwe (i wouldn't know since i just watch wwe) my personal favourite wwe wrestlers at the moment from most to least 1st sami zane 2ed randy orten 3rd rhea ripley 4th brock lesner 5th gunther 6th bayley 7th blanca beliar 8th drew mcIntyre 9th damian priest 10th chad gable 11th ricochet 12th omos
Well the problem with your assessment of the nature of escalation is that fans have lost interest. TV ratings and wrestling place in pop culture has plummeted. So this idea that false finishes are necessary for audience retention is proven completely wrong
@@DaveKnowsWrestlingwrestling (mainly WWE) has lost quality over the last two decades, sure, but even if they didn't the ratings would have still dropped as the ratings of pretty much everything have dropped over the years. With more media to consume nowadays, everything is competing with wrestling for people's attention and interest
6:05 Dutch Mantell has criticized Bret Hart for his complete lack of changing facial expression. Perhaps, Bret was trying to be more realistic by not having facial expressions.
Dave is a bit incorrect here, people do make big facial expressions but it’s just exaggerated for wrestling which is fine since entertainment is far more important
Good video. I was just bemoaning the other day that finishes aren't protected like they used to be, and thinking of the times guys like Brett Hart would win with a move that wasn't their finish. I think every once in a while, we should see someone get a pin with a DDT, a sunset flip, or something that isn't a typical finish to not only remind people that those moves can end a match, but to protect the wrestler's actual finisher.
It's like when Sami Zayn has to hit the Helluva Kick to win but his Blue Thunder Bomb only got him 1 win, as far as I know, against AJ Styles. It seems like everyone kicks out of it everytime.
That's something that I love about GUNTHER. He has no single finishing move, so anything he can do to you can put you away. Hell, he's even won a move with a *_chop!_* That makes watching his matches all the more exciting, because you don't know if what he's doing is going to be the finish or not. It's something I wish that other wrestlers would take after him.
I just started watching wrestling again during the last elimination chamber. 23 years old rn if that's important information. There's still some guys with protected finishs. It's just that now that having a protected finisher is a privilege not a right. Which is sad but does have the silver lining that wrestlers who have protected finishers have a powerful ace up their sleeve compared to those that don't. While la knight isn't a great seller which is a big flaw for a "future main eventer" he does so far have a protected finsh. Daimen preist also seems to have one and of course there's randy orten. Shame not everyone can get that. 2 additional things. 1 i love that gunther has no finisher which makes him both unique and exciting. Ghunther is amazing. 2ed a shit finisher is one of the worst traits and otherwise good wrestler can have beside stuff like bad selling or no mic ability. Baley is one of the best wrestlers in wwe right now but the rose plant just looks bad and weak making then end of her matches always disappointing compared to the rest of the match. I think she'd really benefit from a submission finisher. The bailey to belly was fine but weak looking and the rose plant sucks. She isn't a powerhouse nor a high flyer so that's a bunch of finishers not available. So she should use a submission. I think it'd be really satisfying seeing heels tap out to submissions more often.
Not sure if i agree with this video but I think it's interesting and well made. Something like the frustration 2count is interesting because i think theres also an element of fans learning how to read a match's flow more generally, it's an interesting tension between fans change in literscy and presentation choices.
We now live in a age of over-use,non selling, finishers no longer mattering and we rarely LOCK-UP anymore to start and Build a match and Veterans always talked about "Controlling the Crowd" and "Taking them on a ride" you canr even do that cause modern (at least WWE matches) all have Time Cues, which is why most matches are super choreographed, todays fans are mostly reading a ....digital comic book in a sense when it now comes to Wrestling language
Film is visual, yet some of the best films are Breakfast Club and 12 Angry Men, dialogue driven character studies. Wrestling is story telling at the end of the day.
There's no such thing as Finishers in modern wrestling. There's only signature moves. And while I normally reject Great Man Theory, I really think this is down to three people: The Rock and Austin, and HHH.
I enjoyed the video, but if the question you're asking is, "do we (the fans) still have wrestling literacy," I'm not sure you answered it, or explained how to improve it. Explaining that moves are being done without a purpose, or that a wrestler's shocked two count reaction doesn't get much of a crowd response speaks more to the changing language of wrestling than it does to the wrestling literacy of the audience. It seems to me the problem is coming from the wrestlers and the overall performance, but in wrestling, the communication between performer and audience goes both ways. You compared wrestling to a stage acting, but for the most part there is a fourth wall in stage acting--the actors usually behave as though the audience isn't there. In wrestling, the performance suffers without an audience (as we saw during the pandemic), and the immediate and sustained reactions of the audience can make or break a match, a storyline, or even a career. It is a truly unique type of performance. I think the wrestling audience remains perfectly adept and reading the performance, and if they aren't shocked at a wrestler kicking out of a finisher, it's because the performers have communicated over and over that finishers rarely end matches. Hence, the cognitive dissonance you feel as a fan watching a heel complain to the ref that the face kicked out at two--we knew he was going to kick out, so why is the wrestler surprised? Again, this speaks to the way wrestling as a performance is communicated, not the way it's read.
I agree with you that wrestling itself is a major part of the problem and that's created a generation that can't read it. And I don't really think there's anything that fans can do to help
Honestly, after kafabe was busted in the late 90, Ive seen wrestling as more drama than action. Thus, the actual *wrestling* has become filler. Because sports entertainment had become so formulaic inside the match, the actual interesting parts has become the promo, pre-match, and post match segments. The only deviation has been during pay-per views, and even then you can expect multiple finishers instead of one each. What happens in the ring between the start and right before the end doesn't matter. Moves have no consequence. Only the finishers and pins/submissions matter when it comes to story. If WWE and other promotions can tap into the in-ring drama and make moves have meaning, the overall story would become a lot better, and wrestling literacy as a whole would improve... As well as ticket sales n views.
The issue with modern wrestling, I think, is that it's either extremely sanitized by a whole staff of writers or is about choreographed moves for moves' sake. And don't get me started on the whole kicking out of finishers. I get that in concept it's to make it look like a clash of unrelenting titans that refuse to be put down but when every match has SEVERAL finisher kickouts then it's no surprise that the most devastating move in all of modern wrestling is the surprise roll-up (what even is a finisher at this point if everyone kicks out of it lol). Overuse is never good.
The background music was a little too loud on the beginning, but great video. Although I don't think every change you talked about in thw video is necessarily a downgrade, some are just different from what it used to be, not better or worse, and some are straight up upgrades, like the punches being less effective nowadays, that is since you should have in mind that guys from Harley Race's time couldn't really do a lot in the ring, so they HAD to protect simpler moves like punches. Nowadays, even a wrestler who's simply alright in ring can do way more than most of the best wrestlers from the 60s and 70s, so punches became less impressive and it doesn't make sense to sell it as very damaging.
We can define where predictability begins all day as I could easily say anything that concludes with a winner is predictable. Plus, movies and stories all follow formulas. And more importantly, while you claim you don't want to watch a match that goes how it's "supposed to" the overall viewership and wrestling's current place in pop culture shows that more people rather have it the other way
@@DaveKnowsWrestling That's fine! I am not usually like "most people". But I do love wrestling and I'm enjoying AEW and NJPW as well as my local wrestling show DOA very much!
Hi Dave, great video. This is probably a hot take, but I say that false finishes *DO* serve a purpose that benefits the story. If a babyface takes a finisher and kicks out, then the heel will wonder how can they win if even their match ender can’t keep the babyface down? If the heel’s finisher is powerless to stop the babyface, then is the heel done for? False finishes have their place, you can’t convince me otherwise
This is a great topic that you don't think about even if you know it's there. In defense of moves losing there impact part of that is over exposure and just the way moves evolve. A suplex won't work as a finish today cause everyone who has wrestled the last 35 years has used them atleast once a match and suplexes have evolved and been modified in ways to look more devastating such as Roderick Strong adding a backbreaker to one for his finish. So I don't think there is a way of avoiding that some moves become transitional moves over time. That being said, I agree wrestlers should really look at their movesets and trim moves that are only there to do them, that don't contribute to the finish or are solely used to weaken an opponent's ability to do thier finish etc. I remember an interview with Jake the Snake Roberts where he talked about how every move he does weakens his opponent's head and neck for the DDT, and more wrestlers should have the same or similar mindset. I don't think every wrestler should do as many moves to the head than hit a finish to the head cause that would make things stale but say having some moves to attack the core to weaken a strong man, some moves to attack the legs to slow down a luchadore and some moves to attack the arms to take the power of of strikes and using them situationally would help. I think it is interesting to think of what happens to wrestling literacy in regards to face/ heel situations when a wrestler is loved for being a heel like Eddie Guerrero or Ric Flair in the later half of his career. When you have situations, like with Eddie's championship run, where short hand should tell someone this is a bad guy, boo him but the audience love him for that instead and the story wants to see him as a mischievous but loveable hero. Does this make wrestling literacy weaker by mudding the waters or does it give it more nuisance by having situations where shorthand doesn't mean what it is expected.
Somebody's been reading the New London Group. I'd be down to co-author a paper on multiliteracy and sports philosophy through the lens of wrestling, if you're interested. Roland Barthes' essay on the mythology of wrestling is a great read, btw.
Not to say I disagree but at this point when I hear an argument that boils down to “what ever happened to x” it just sounds like old men yelling at clouds. Like in the NFL how offenses evolve from tall statuesque QBs never moving from the pocket, to today where if your QB can’t move you’ll be picking at the top of the draft. This is the evolution of wrestling whether we like it or not. Pining over the days of when a DDT was a finish is like crying over the fact there’s no fullbacks anymore. It’s no longer required because the game has evolved.
@@DaveKnowsWrestling right but the purpose of wrestling is to get a crowd reaction. If you wrestle an 80’s style match now it wouldn’t work. The fans have seen everything so you constantly need to show them something different, hence the evolution of wrestling.
If your premise is correct then why has wrestling fallen out of the pop culture zeitgeist and has less viewers than ever. This type of wrestling only appeals to a small audience
@@DaveKnowsWrestling you can’t compare television views now to back in the 90s with the amount of people who cut the cord. If wrestling is so unpopular how did AEW draw 80k in Wembley or WWE set a record this year for Wrestlemania? Wrestling is more popular now than it’s been in 30 years and when it was “mainstream” you had Mae Young giving birth to a hand and Bret Hart calling Shawn Michaels slurs. Mainstream isn’t always good and fans now appreciate the work rate instead of appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Good and the amount of people watching aren't the same thing. "Good" is a matter of opinion that varies from person to person. The amount of people watching is a hard number. And the WMXL record is after combining two nights. That's how they broke the record. And yes you can compare 90's rating to today's. People have cut the cord, but Smackdown isn't on cable now is it. But more importantly, while TV ratings have dipped as a whole, wrestling's drop is greater than other industries. Not to mention that the Superbowl has grown in viewership. And regardless as to any of that, less people watching is still less people watching. Which is the entire argument to begin with
Hey I really liked the 1st half of this video it was really well put together and had great production. But I’d have to strongly disagree with how moves become less impactful over time. Sports and entertainment change. Like there was a when in the NBA there was no 3 point shot, dunking used to be frowned upon and goal tending was legal. Sports can change with the times and evolve there’s nothing wrong with wanting how things used to be but to suggest the current stuff has less meaning feels like hogwash it’s just different. Same way Kings road style is incredibly different than WWE. But again great video and an enjoyable watch.
Understood and thank for the praise. But for me, the difference is that those rule changes in the NBA lead to more viewers. It's like why wrestling is worked to begin with. Modern wrestling, while everyone is entitled to like what they want, it has less people watching than ever
@@DaveKnowsWrestling uhh by what metric? Domestically in the US? Please correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t WM40 the most viewed mania of all time? In addition the business at least WWE have been setting record after record for attendance and profits. I understand where you’re coming from but to suggest wrestling is at it’s all time low is simply untrue. If where in like 2019 I would definitely see and agree with your point.
TV ratings for one. And while WM gates are huge, average Raw and Smackdown attendance and house show numbers aren't always. The peaks are pretty high, but the overall day to day stuff isn't. Yes, WWE makes more money, but that's from corporate deals which has nothing to do with the number of people who are watching it. In terms of physical people who are active wrestling fans today, the numbers are not as high as they once were
@@DaveKnowsWrestling WM40 had the most views of any wrestling product ever. The house shows are doing gangbusters. They sold out my local area several times in the last few months. TV ratings are down across the board from the 2000s and 90s. WWE is doing better weekly ratings than they did in 2017-2022. So the day to day stuff doing amazing. Cody and Roman have slipped into pop culture. I’m sorry but to act as if wrestling is going poorly by any metrics is simply wrong. Your entitled to believe what you like but dude your arguing against facts and logic. Great video but come on just google stuff it’s not hard to admit a mistake or you may be wrong. It’s your view that wrestling is at a low point but by all measures it’s a fact that it’s in a boom period.
More than any other wrestling product. Ali/Inoki allegedly had a billion views. So something doesn't add up. And again I said the peaks are high but the day to day stuff isn't. When I was talking about wrestling back in the day, I was talking about 2017. So saying that its doing better than a few years ago doesn't negate how low the ratings are. And house show numbers are not as high on average just because your local arena sold out. House shows used to be in major venues and now that have to go to smaller arenas mostly
Yeah too many finishers are kicked out of now all throughout entire PPV's and basic televised events, where iirc it used to be reserved for main and maybe even co-main events only for each. I also dislike the fact that the superkick has been relegated into a spammable move anyone can kick out of even after getting 100 in the face, whereas Shawn Michaels' Sweet Chin Music was a literal show stopper. While I do love what Triple H has been doing recently in terms of longterm booking and MOST of his storytelling, the in-ring performances are overshadowing and oversaturating the potential power these stories could tell if they could just scale back on the flashiness. Like c'mon, do we really need 10 German Suplexes in one match, especially most of them in a row? I get that the sport and the characters are supposed to evolve, but they seem too powerful now and in a way makes them all look weaker at the same time because moves aren't as effective as they used to be.
I am one of those that hates it when the wrestler kicks out of finisher I get it for storyline purposes and pay-per-views hate it when it's overused all the time
@@DaveKnowsWrestling no worries. Still a great video, meant no disrespect or devaluing of your content. It's always a pleasure to see what, Dave Knows. 💙
Don't get me wrong selling is a lost art, but so is the other part of making the moves believable is the art of the struggle. It is more about the struggle after the sell.
