That's Chrysler all over, just yesterday I was watching a story on how here in Australia Jeep Cherokee fuel line wears through on the body so you have to replace the fuel tank because the fuel line is integral. $4500 fix it cost at a dealer.
Honda had so much trouble with their plug in fuel pump relay, maybe this is why Chrysler decided to solder this one in. Don't know. Great video Shango!
Make you sad to think of all the people who have been robbed of $1000 for a $2.50 part. It's the same with all vehicles, major appliances, etc. Pays to know how to fix things.
Look at car wizard. Occasionally he would drop a video of tips and tricks. I think he has a neat relay tool to diagnose something like this. He also has an Amazon affiliate thing where to can buy some tools.
It's unfortunate that they dispensed with the older, modular design -- where one simply pulled out the old relay individually and replaced it with a new, nominally-priced one. Not everybody has an endless supply of money to burn!!
It's getting to the point where people are going to have to significantly reengineer their vehicles if they expect to keep them on the road when stuff starts breaking. It's way worse with farm equipment. It's so expensive that there's an entire cottage industry developing with software hacks and pilfered diagnostic software because John Deere has started behaving like Tesla.
There's something sick in the head about manufacturers these days. They go out of their way to make things almost unfixable. Nice job - and thanks for sharing the info.
Had this problem on our 2011 Grand Caravan. Found a Chrysler service bulletin that converted some models of the Jeep Cherokee to an external fuel pump relay. It involves unmounting and partially disconnecting the TIPM to get access to cut and splice some wires. I bought an external 30A plug in relay and an in-line 20A fuse and wired it into the TIPM using information from the service bulletin as a guide. For $30 and a few hours work it was fixed (and that heavy duty relay will easily outlast the vehicle).
Well done! I drive a Dodge Stratus with the rotten 2.7 - water pump inside the timing cover. Mine failed and dumped about a quart of water in the oil, but I caught it in the nick of time. The rest of the engine is very strong.
outside that water pump problem, those 2.7 will run forever. some people replace the wp every 80k for preventative maintenance. whoever decided to put the WP inside the engine should be shot. Same goes for Ford 3.5 and 3.7 FWD applications.
This is an old video but after watching it, I believe the relay failed because the current draw from the pump is so high. 11 amps running is about twice what I'm used to seeing. I would replace the pump as well. In the "old days", when vehicles had external fuel filters, this might indicate that the fuel filter was about stopped up. By the time they would get to this point, the engine would "sag" under hard acceleration to to lack of fuel flow due to the plugged fuel filter. Now the EPA has gotten their hands in the mix and eliminated the external fuel filters. This was due to the fact that raw fuel was spilled every time the filter was replaced. Now the filters are on the suction side of the pump, inside the tank. They eventually will plug as well and then the tank will have to be removed. Just a huge mess!! "Throw away vehicles"!!
I have a 2012 Caravan that had the same issue. Apparently, you can buy a Chrysler relay repair kit from the dealer. For about $200 Cdn, you get a Bosch style relay, a fuse holder and a relay socket. I found the detailed installation instructions online and got a fuse holder, relay and socket from our stock (I work at an automotive aftermarket shop) So for $10 bucks in parts and about a half hour, I now have a fully functioning van again. I carry a spare relay to swap in just in case (the relay is now external to the TIPM) Anyway, great video, and keep 'em coming! Dan
while I don't care for much of the Chrysler engineering now days, I will happily spread the blame upstream tot he relay manufactures ( and anythnig that has frequently cycled under load contacts) ROHS is the root cause, forcing major contact material composition changes and all the new relay contact designs, which they claimed was good, without proper long term testing. all the advanced wear tests are pretty much useless, perfect condition lab settings. no enter real world usage with higher ambient temps and no back EMF protection. then again 2011 vehicles in 2021 (past the 10 year mark)
What's the sense of having the fuel pump soldered to the board rather than having it plug in on top? Just another way to screw the public! Another reason not to buy Chrysler!
Bean counters wouldn't let them redesign the unit to allow for a top-side socketed relay. They should have compromised a bit for a better relay, though.
My hat's off to you on this one. I've got my last sisters 2010 Journey. I'm happy that the TIPM module was handy at our local pick and pull yards. symptoms: Factory TIPM: Horn would go off randomly and would drain the battery overnight Replaced with junkyard module: Fan(s) would run at random times during the days..... Drained battery within a few hours. Replaced with another module: Intermittent no crank. Starter 'clicks' and then drops signal to the starter Replaced with a 4th module: Worked for a week, and now the intermittent no crank is back. TIPM isn't at fault (the last repair shop looked at it, and declared it was faulty..) I can jiggle the shifter and it will start normally. I've been driving it with that odd no crank problem for a few months now. I can safely say as a retired auto mechanic that this entire system is a huge pantload. We're suspecting the NSS for the transmission is flaky (it will start in neutral fine, so far...but in park it's hit/miss) Instead of using a simple switch, they built the damn thing into the transmission itself, and the labor to change that would be more then the SUV is worth.
Thank you on shining light to this issue. I'm having the same problem with my vehicle too. No ground, and no power going to the fuse that activates the fuel pump relay, and I just had the fuel pump changed.
Good one Shango. My friend has a 2012 Jeep that will shut off randomly for 15min. Crank no start no DTC’s. Only happens once a month or so. I made a test box with LED’s and tapped into fuel pump request and fuel pump feed, ASD request and ASD power to PCM. Now all she has to do is drive and tell me what lights are out when it quits. I thought about shotgunning new relays on the TIPM but I want to actually diagnose
Haha! It's great that you referred to the alternator output voltage as B+ Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I suspect you are the only one that carries the vacuum bulb lingo over to car repair.
So...while they designed this box they were sitting on a table discussing details when someone just said: "Hey I got an idea: Lets make all relays with sockets for easy access and replacement!" so then another one came with " Good, good - but wait. Why not just put the most important one INSIDE so it is really hard to replace?" and everyone just clapped, congratulated themselves and went home.
I have a Durango TIPM, Cluster, steering column with wheel controls, and ignition module all sitting here on my desk connected together. I've been doing some CAN reverse engineering so I can run the horizontal mounted electric power steering pump without the rest of the vehicle. Once I'm done, I'll preemptively install a new relay in the TIPM and re-sell that bad boy! I got everything from the junkyard for about $150. I actually got my circuit design up and running with it today, then this comes up! Great fix!
Replacing a relay every 10 years aint too bad, I like to fix things forever, I would have looked up a MOSFET circuit that can replace a 10 amp relay, maybe beef it up to 20 amp capacity .
Yeah, i find it strange that they still have all that clickety stuff in there (with expensive copper wires) when you could just put a small SMD mosfet on the board to do the job. Well, maybe I underestimate the nasty voltage spikes and other funny business going on in a car.
Thanks! soldering - i didn't get to do. _phew_ Took me a Lot of Study to get Celica Boxes apart. Year later i need to . . 'finish'. Back to the books. =\
Chrysler has a relay upgrade/bypass under recall that converts it to a external relay and socket. I think you have to cut and bypass a few things but it fixes the problem. I think they have done away with that tipim stuff now because of the problems they were having with them. I probably would have torn it down and replaced the relay like you did but there is that upgrade for those. I think they have since went to a different upgrade kit for those and the dealers do them often enough there are videos out about what it is and how to do it.
What a brilliant design... Like the (in)famous main relay of 2000s Volkswagen TDIs. If that stupid thing breaks (it does it all the time, of course) you have to take the whole dashboard apart to get to that sucker. In 1990s Mercedes you have a big grey box on the main relay tray on the firewall. That dreaded thing controls the heated rear window, the wiper interval and washer automatic and the heated windscreen washer nozzles. Iirc. it controls the sunroof too. And; you guessed it; it breaks all the time and mercedes charges you about $600 for the damn thing. But that soldered in fuel pump relay is on another level...
Check the pin on the bottom of the tipm, that corresponds to the fuel relay fuse. I have been dealing with one of these for a long time now. I'd bet you'll still have problems later even after replacing the relay. The pin on the one I was working with was corroded, like it had been arcing or something. Cleaned out the mating socket and cleaned off the pin, seems to be better, but also think the socket is not making good contact, thought about adding a teeny bit of sodler to the pin on the bottom of the tipm to give it more area to make contact with
Your video is very educational and I wish I would have ran into it a long time ago. I was wondering if it would also caused the fuel pump to not turn off
I think the fuel pump is on its way out, 11A(150W) seems way too high. Startup current will be even worse and that is what killed the relay eventually.
@@KameraShy Possibly. I wonder what the fuse is rated for? If the pump was drawing that much more current, I'd expect the fuse to go first maybe? Unless the relay has some strict tolerances.
Thanks for the heads up, It made me go look and fortunately my 2010 Grandiose Cherokee doesn't have this stranding waiting to happen. If it did I now know how to bypass it to get home, at least they put the fuse after the relay to make that possible.
I've got a 2006 Range Rover LR3 that I'm replacing a High-Side driver (elaborate MOSFET) that drives one of the headlights - Of course it's buried in the fuse block too...
No different from banks and insurance companies making their products 750 pages long with their product disclosure statements and jargon that no normal person would understand. There is a lot of money in overcomplicating things for the sake of it.
Shango I love you buddy I really do I learned a lot about electronics watching you I am an auto mechanic in for anybody who wants to believe me take it or leave it all you need to do is clean it down with some type of cleaner electrical contact cleaner then seal it had a lot of success that way just saying worth a shot what do you have to lose you're going to have to replace the damn module eventually any how keep it up Shango good stuff
I wonder if it would also be possible to run wires and install an external relay socket, then install a standard automotive relay? Though assuming that's a quality replacement it will probably outlive the van. These kind of automotive engineering fails (or probably wins on their profit margins) are a huge pet peeve of mine. My Dodge truck is old enough to not have this design, but it does have the turn signal flasher permanently soldered to the back of the gauge cluster. So I can't simply install a different flasher relay if I want to run LED turn signal bulbs. I will not be looking into a newer car anytime soon. Great work as usual.
Can't believe that Chrysler designed that like that but then again they're known for doing crazy stuff like that I used to own a Chrysler 300C with the 5.7 L Hemi and had some problems with that also
I'm looking for suggestions for other vintage electronic repair/restoration channels to watch. I'm almost done with Shango's videos, same with RadioTVPhoneNut, Mr Carlsons Lab, David Tipton and others I can't remember right now. All of these guys are phenomenal. I hope to be able to repair a quarter of the stuff that they make look so easy some day. Thanks for any suggestions...
There's a bad fuel pump relay from a 1990 Honda Accord that's been kicking around in my dad's toolbox for years. Not surprised that Chrysler made a high failure rate part unserviceable.
Car manufacturers have been doing stupid stuff like this for way too long. I found out frustratingly late that it was the Stanadyne pump control module that had been failing on a GM 395 diesel... not the pump itself! Since GM sells the two units only as a whole, I replaced them both several times. Stanadyne sell just the controller module for 1/5th the cost. Adding a aftermarket heatsink to address the design shortcoming, there have been no subsequent failures.
You need to be aware that on some of the newer vehicles if you replace the relay with one that doesn’t draw the correct amount of current on the coil portion of the relay, a code will set and turn on engine lamp. Then the module shuts the relay off killing the engine. Verify that what ever relay you use specs the same. I’m a Chrysler tech who has found this out the hard way.😖
I have had so many of these vans come through my dealership with bad transmissions. Even the same problem on the VW Routan which is just a Caravan in drag.
I don’t know if you can help me I think somebody might’ve turned some of my relays around the 4 pin relays in the same TiPM. I have a 2013 Durango 3.6 L Do you know if they all face the firewall
Hi Shango…. Have a question…. My wife drives a 2012 Town and Country. For the past couple years when she was driving at night the dash light would go out and immediately come back on, but the van still run fine. Now it won’t start and I checked the Amps across the fuel relay like you showed in your video and I have no amps when I try to start it. Do I just need to change the relay or do I have bigger problems? Your expert advice is appreciated…. Great video by the way! Thanks for your time.
What is going on in my van is, the windshield wipers are going, all the lights are on in the dash, it say to check to service the tier pressure system, service the blind spot system. Plus it say the cadlic convert is gone. Getting pretty expensive with all that happening at once. I looked at the fuse box, and a few fuses are missing. Don't know how that happened. Have any idea's???
I have an 2009 Town and Country which has a problem with the instrument cluster is draining the battery. I see it flash on and off when the car is not running. I had a local garage check it out and diagnose but all they did was install a knife switch to connect and disconnect the battery. It's a pain because I have to leave it off and switch the battery back on if I'm not going to use it for a few days. Would like to get it fixed the right way. It has a 4.0 V6 only 65K miles and is a 25th anniversary model.
There is a much easier fix for this and it cost $20. The Dodge Durango has a recall kit and instructions to splice in an external relay into the harness. I installed it on my wife's Caravan in about one hour. It works for every every vehicle using that module. Google nhtsa 15v-115 . There are instructions to splice in the kit and you can get the kit from any dealership.
@@shango066 Anyone driving a Dodge couldn't possibly be that picky... And since it comes from the manufacturer themselves it's wouldn't fall under "hack" as it is a factory approve repair. But whatever, I still enjoy the videos.
This seems like a very common problem on Chrysler TIPM vehicles. There was a recall for this issue with older WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokees, 2011-2013, though the fix is to patch in an external relay onto the wiring harness rather replacing the faulty relay within the TIPM or replacing the faulty TIPM altogether. Chrysler's fix isn't a very neat one, IMO, and how well it addresses the problem can depend on how good the technician is at installing it ... though a poor technician wouldn't fare any better at repairing the TIPM if he can't patch in an external relay.
You should have soldered nice, thick wires onto that board and into external socket for a robust pump relay that is also removable. I cannot believe they didn't put it there. And that board looks must corrode like crazy in dump weather.
My brother had this problem, and the dealership couldn't figure it out. I googled the symptoms and figured it out in 2 minutes and even found the solution an external relay bypass, also there appears to be a recall on this. information here: www.verticalvisions.com/tipm-fuel-relay-solutions.html
At least they moved the fuse junction box out from under the battery. Those relays have a high failure rate in whatever they are used in. Especially hot tube control boards where the relays are used for pumps and heaters that draw high current. Dumb!
Do I understand correctly: You pay high insurance. When a sensor or relay breaks down, the car doesn't work and stand on the road. Tech support arrives repairs the car (replaces expensive integral modules). You pay dearly for the repair. Sometimes you get a replacement vehicle. All within the insurance you pay a lot of money for. All for your convenience. We are dealing with a manufacturer, service and insurer agreement. They all make money. America is a country of rich people since ordinary citizens can still afford such high fees. My conclusion: Does anyone have a WWII Willis Jeep for sale cheap? I'd be happy to buy. An ordinary farmer with basic tools can handle repairing this car.
@@erikj.2066 And who pays for the replacement vehicle? There are insurances that cover this kind of breakdown. Besides, there are warranty repairs, usually in authorized workshops. It's also a cost and profit for the auto manufacturer. And most of all, an opportunity to raise the cost of a product or service repair.
@@roberts1938 Who pays for a replacement vehicle? Unless it's in an accident, the owner of the vehicle pays for a replacement vehicle. Collision/liability insurance is for damage(s), and injury(s) as a result of an accident. Not to cover the replacement of a worn out, or broken part that happened as result of every day use. The "extended warranties" you can buy for auto repairs are a joke. In the fine print, they usually exclude a bunch of stuff they'll cover, and if they do cover something, they do all they can to shaft the guy doing the repair work. This is an 11 year old vehicle. There is no manufacturer warranty at this point.
@@erikj.2066 O. K. I admit that the insurer generally shows up when there is an accident. This is when the agreement between the insurer, the workshop and the manufacturer (vehicle model) is most apparent. For minor out of warranty repairs you are doomed to replace the module. Few people are able to determine what component is damaged and repair it themselves. As you can see, these are often penny issues. I want to point out something disturbing. There are car models where it is very difficult to do a bulb change. You have to use the manufacturer's authorized service. Sometimes it requires dismantling the whole wheel arch and this is a safety issue for the driver. It shouldn't be like that. Besides, higher compulsory insurance rates are introduced. At least in Europe. But if it makes a profit, so it probably does in America. You get very little in return. But that's a topic for another consideration.
I see the Omron name everywhere. Don't they know that is an anagram for the word "moron"? Like Nexem. Anagram is a very formal way of saying X-men from the comics; "exmen". Or maybe xmeen. Now they are nice! Life is like a box of relays and fuses. So this is a fine example of cheap recycled stuff , no matter where it's made , not standing the test of time. Should modern vehicles last forever ?
4:50 It was over in a moment and the folks had gathered round There before them lay the body of the Dodge on the ground Oh, he might have went on failing but he made one fatal slip When he tried to match the Shango with the big iron on his hip Big iron on his hip Big iron, big iron
I wanna meet that genius who thought it will be a really good idea to solder a relay in an inaccessible area inside the fuse box .. just make it like they used to have it socketed. What sort of problems where a socketed relay causing?
