Whether it works or not, the problem with apps like this is that it releases people from actually doing the work. The value is not in the result but in the process. Wrestling with a dream or making your own pictures is hard work, yes. It requires a lot of discernment and subtle choices and it's definitely not easy. But choice is what makes us human! It's also what Jung, Von Franz, and other Jungians felt was really missing, the feeling function. Not every dream is equally important... instead of mindlessly transcribing every single dream, it would have been better to choose a few good ones than turning dream analysis into a statistical exercise.
Bravo to TJL for welcoming such an important discussion. I found it reassuring to be able to listen in on the ethos of the Temenos Dream app. Seems like they are committed to balancing cutting edge tech with true human wellbeing. As a long time podcast fan, your RU-vid platform is a new experience for me. Honestly, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the discussion between Joseph and John. Really genuine. I'd love to see more collaborations between Joseph and John in the future!
great conversation , I used it for the first time after listening to this podcast with some dreams that I had interpreted with a dream specialist that I've worked with for years on and off. I felt that the AI interpretation was very helpful perhaps not as complex as with my dream therapist. However, my dream therapist at times , has some conditioning that incorrectly sometimes leads me a stray. no system or person is perfect , and I love another technology to use.
I think it’s an amazing tool, at the end of the day, AI in this context is just a mirror that provides a reflection and allows you to explore concepts and put connections together that might not be noticeable at first glance. It’s helped me tremendously in my shadow work, and always asks thought provoking questions that lead to me discovering aspects of my shadows, and working to integrate them into my overall “self.” I would suggest to try it as a tool, and experience it for yourself. If one is drawing many judgmental conclusions without having experienced it on their own, they’re missing out on a potential helpful tool in their arsenal of discovering more about themselves. There’s no wrong way to explore your own self discovery, but I’d encourage people to discover for themselves firsthand.
Excellent show. I've been using AI as an author for a few months now and must say it is an incredible tool for enhancing something that is already written. This approach to using it with dreams will takes Jungs approach to amplification to a whole new level as the patient and doctor don't have to be super well versed in myth and legend to survey a sea of myths in seconds while tying in cultural and archetypal motifs. I think this is absolutely game changer as it could aid in speeding up Jungs process as outlined in his Psychology and Alchemy.
Throw the AI into the fire, Isildur! But I have to admit, begrudgingly, that it did an impressive job of dream interpretation in this example, even if not particularly nuanced. The references to particular associated myths could be very useful for suggesting further resources for study and deeper exploration. It would have been interesting to see some of the imagery generated, sort of a backwards confirmation or "parity check" to see the relationship between the imagery and the language in both cases, and how directionality influences interpretation and communication (I'm personally curious about this from the perspective of a beginning writer dealing with deep visual psychological and subconscious content). Thanks, great episode, if a bit disconcerting - I'm tempted to slip it onto my own finger and use it to do good... Update: I yielded to my curiosity, and I'm fairly impressed with the results it produced. The dream I submitted wasn't particularly arcane but it did include some big themes and a lot of detail which the AI analyzed as well as and virtually identically with my own prior analysis, while providing a few mythical references I hadn't connected it with. The biggest shortcoming I see is in its inability to follow detailed prompts for image generation (which I can't do either, to be fair) - it can produce stunning images that include features from the dream, but invariably those are assembled out of context and with attributes of one element misplaced onto another element (colors in particular), which I have also seen with other image generators. I'm gonna try to push its limits over the next week with some deeper content, and try to figure out how to get into the site more directly (it didn't appear to have installed a screen icon to access the app, so I'm not sure how to go back to it if I close it - Luddite issues). The voice dictation feature works very well and I can see that being quite helpful for recording dreams, especially very detailed ones. This seems like it might be a useful tool to AID dream analysis, but I don't see it replacing the need for or the depth of an experienced human analyst, there are some elements that a machine just can't understand or duplicate, at least not yet; the therapeutic relationship is irreplaceable and indispensable for any deep work. The title belt remains with the Dream Team, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few more cage matches with this new contender (just to show him that 'old school' isn't anywhere near retirement). 3 to 1 - you can take him 😉.
Randomness is an important ingredient of AI. But this also true for the I Ching, which was used fervently by Carl Jung. Could we hope for a synchronistic respons? So the question rises, what makes the randomness of a divinitory tool different from that of AI in this case.
I've been having a recurring dream. I'm in a room on my own, and I'm eating a giant marshmallow. This has been going on for some weeks and all my pillows have disappeared.
To the question that Lisa raises at 1:01:22 - If we could stop it, should we? I think we most definitely should pause it. This is technology that is being forced upon us at a pace that is way to fast to integrate and introduce safely. None of us voted on whether we wated to live in a world where AI takes our jobs over night or steals artists' intelectual property. I agree with John that art has a soul and that AI could never reproduce that, but that doesn't mean that we will have a society that creates a space for artists to continue creating their art. We are already seeing artists be replaced by AI, and teachers be replaced by AI (that would be me). Our society already treats human beings as if they were machines and the only spaces where that doesn't happen is in interactions with other humans, like in a therapeutic setting. (Sorry for my rants, apparently I found this episode triggering. 😅😂 Thank you for the thought provoking conversation)
AI as a larger question, for example, deepfake videos and making lethal firing decisions in war technology, is, well, a larger question. But as for its use with Jungian analysis, I think it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Well, almost. AI for Jungian analysis can only promote general interest, and the rising interest in dreams and Jungian interpretation is, on a smaller scale, just like the rising interest in psychedelics. As a species and a civilization, we either gain more access to the unconscious, and use it to heal, or our collective shadow will probably kill us or leave some kind of terrible, un-free societies. The rise of more ways to access the unconscious is arising out of the need for it, faced with the mounting challenges of our collective shadow. Psychedelics is a great example of this. Accessing the unconscious is always dangerous. So collective movements which bring the power to do so, …are dangerous. Read psychedelics, read AI for Jungian interpretation. Power, and accessing the unconscious is inherently and ontologically dangerous. Fear of this by the elite, the best at it, the analysts, is probably misplaced. I would imagine that practically speaking increased use in AI and apps for Jungian dream work is likely to bring even more interest and demand for formal analysis over time. It won’t be as simple as falling off a log for analysts - but overall demand I’m guessing will rise. Jungian AI and apps will create a broader base of interest. I use ChatGPT, sometimes the free and sometimes the more advanced “paid” version, with my dreams on the regular. I just keep asking refining questions - “Now reinterpret the dream and cast all the characters as elements of my psyche”; “what are some possible Jungian meanings of the number ’six’ [in my dream]”; If the young woman is a facet of my anima, what might she represent?”. ChatGPT will typically give me four to six possibilities for something at a time, so I can just see what resonates for me, and keep asking refining questions. This plays to ChatGPT’s real strength - I don’t have to worry about it being “right” about my dream, since the only way I know if something is correct is if it resonates for me anyway, just like how I discriminate between suggestions about a dream I bring it to my dream group. When I go to dream group, different things happen than if I were to do the dream on my own, with ChatGPT, and if I bring a dream I already did ChatGPT on to a dream group, I may get more, richer and deeper into the dream, but the opposite can happen as well - if I bring a dream I brought to a dream group to ChatGPT, likewise, I am likely to get more, richer and deeper into the dream.
I have been using AI to translate some Hebrew text that has been kept in Hebrew and doing Gematria it is good at calculation and doing them Very quickly
Great conversation until 49 minutes in which really irked me actually, so thank you! 😂 But I disagree with the sentiment of shame or frivolousness with sharing the truth about my dreams online. The whole world can deny me that I’ve shared dreams 6/7 different people because I’m not attached to the phenomenon it just happens. And I might have challenges in my communication skills but what is “sacred” won’t be toned down because people think there’s a “showiness” or “sullying” to it imho. And NO!!! It is not remotely like sharing a NUDE on the internet! lol Otherwise, love your insights.
For the lady of the dream this uber driver can be a sign to search for a mentor 'outside' the ring of intimi like family and ex girlfriend (s) Chop wood carry water.
How similar are dreams to AI? Taking bits and pieces and stringing words together without regard to actual reality. Like the case of AI inventing legal precedents in court which never happened in court court cases which never happened
