We thank you God for your great love so marvelously seen in you grace. Thank you Pastor John/DGM. Thank you Lord for certain commentors here who help me see someting great about You. Who is like our God, the only living God, the Almighty Lord Jesus?
I was just wrestling with this question a couple days ago. Thanks be to God who hears us! I wasn't thinking like what was thought in the video: "I want God to love me for me," instead I just fought with the idea that all I was was a gift from God to God (the Father to the Son). Now, this has benefits, being that God treats me amazingly, but I thought of it like someone who gets a gift for someone but doesn't do it for them, but with the good of someone else in mind as their sole focus, and when someone does something for you without you in mind, the act becomes difficult to fully appreciate, if at all. Now I see that it's true that God loves us to glorify Himself, but that I had only half the truth. The other half is that God glorifies Himself to us (points us to Him) because it's His highest act of love for us. God has both Himself and us in mind when He loves us. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ-if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:15-17 Thanks Desiring God team! Praise God He loves us in fullest love!
His "glory" is his worth and greatness increasing in the eyes of his creation (us). He does this by revealing his being to us more and more, his grace, mercy, love, justice, strenght etc. But God does not change, he was always like that. So: His Glory is actually for our good. He does not need us at all and him creating us and having fellowship with us is PURELY selfless. God has NO benefit from us. He was always perfectly happy and in fellowship in the trinity
He created people to bless and give to. He does benefit from seeing us transformed from sin into his image, and he loves to see our good and his glory unfold and manifest in our lives. He doesn’t need us but like a loving father, brother or mother it gives him pleasure to watch us grow and become all that we can be because he cares for us not only for his glory but he cares intimately about each person.
@@greganderson2239yes yes youre right. I didnt say it gives him no pleasure. I just mean he does all of this BECAUSE he loves us, there is nothing in it for him that he didnt have before.
Yea God Is love the bible says, and the bible also says Love seeks not its own ( 1 Corinthians 13:5 ). Therefore God being for His Own Glory must be selfless
God is love, and he gets the most praise, honor, and glory by acting in his very nature. Philippians 2:5-11 when Gods motivation starts with his love the confusion fades.
He loves us because he created us. Thank you Jesus! Jesus please save us come soon I’m holding on and keeping faith. Waiting for the rapture. I keep faith even as I constantly struggle to provide for my kids and I constantly struggle to buy groceries. My husband is with you God. At times I feel so alone especially as a single mom. Since suffering a heart attack two years ago and my on going battle with lupus I’m overwhelmed. Both of my sons are autistic but because of you Lord they are thriving. I’m now homeschooling them so my hours to work are limited. Thankfully I have you Lord!The love of others have grown so cold. I know you will continue to provide you have this far. Faith over fear! Praise God and his son Yeshua! Hear my prayers.
He created the majority of people who go to hell. What good is God's love for that for them? Sure, God's not unfair or unrighteous for doing so, But that's all they get as a result of being loved by God forever. It goes to tell you what He really wanted with most of His creation or He wouldn't have if He didn't. And only can someone become a Christian and be saved if God chooses them, makes them, gives them what can only even make it possible or they wouldn't, therefore that would go to show all those in hell only needed God to do the same thing He does with Christians. But God doesn't even want most to be saved or they would have been, because if God wanted them to them they would have been unless God is a failure at accomplishing His own will, which the Bible claims He's not, neither is He going to fail getting what He wants with everyone and everything. Even before the foundation of the world, God decided exactly how everything would happen. All the bad things that happen are going EXACTLY the way He planned. Therfore He wanted most of us in hell, and only a few saved. Which He's not wrong for doing so. But it goes to show what this love is actually about.
@@VYMQGSOH It requires a great measure of grace to have the humility and reverence for God and his ways to assert what you have since the implications of that holy, discriminating love are staggering and awesome in the original sense of the word, yet I wonder if you have found the 'why' of election and reprobation, and if that has helped you to still see God's love as sweet rather than a sort of a 'lucky draw' or 'tyrannical arbitrary favoritism' sort of thing, like many people view it (not saying that you do.) Romans 9:21-24 (NLT) is extremely helplful with revealing why God chose some and not others when he could've chosen to save everyone. God's love is a fatherly love, yet it is also a marital love which means that he didn't just intend to share a lot of love but to share his love to the greatest possible degree, meaning that he had to make it exclusive so that the recipients would feel as appreciative, reverent, humble, and special as possible, knowing that God's warnings of Hell were not idle as evidenced by many being there, and his sovereign rights and authority was very real and no one deserved to benefit from his free grace and undeserved, unaroused love, yet as a Christian we do and non-Christians don't all while we are not better in any way than others. Everyone experiences God's love to some degree, and by design, I think, the reprobate tend to experience it much more materialistically and physically in this present life, yet only some are grateful. If God had chosen to save everyone then everyone would be grateful for experiencing his love, but because only some are saved while others ultimately get what they deserve, we who are not getting what we deserve solely based on God's choice to save us in spite of us, will thank him and love him in return to the greatest possible degree. The way to make something as special and grand as possible is to make it exclusive and the Giver has that right and the recipients are UNFATHOMABLY blessed not just for salvation but for predestined, special selection salvation that had nothing to do with their worthiness compared to the next person's EVER!
Yes, it is ALL about God receiving greater and greater glory (...and the increase of His kingdom will never end.) With questions about our status outside of God's involvement, I think, "How is such even possible?" Those are so irrelevant. So much of also, the election debate, particularly from people who claim they initiated their relationship with God, is along the same line. Of course He begins it. Could any one of us even start it off, if He had not created us in the first place? I did do a double-take though, when you said, "God delights in the overflow of mercy, even where it is spurned. I had last listened to your episode on whether or not Christ died for the whole world. (I enjoyed how you came to agreement with your dad on John 3:16), but help me reconcile your thoughts on that -- with how God delights in this. How does this square with us not having free will? Keep up the great work.
I just stepped out of my room after starting to read Jonathan Edwards "The End for which God Made the World." Seeing this clip, I can fully grasp what piper means by what he is saying. For God to love for any reason outside himself is not only irrational but immoral, as God's moral rectitude suposes that he loves for the sake of the highesr good, and he is the highest good. There loves us for himself.
What bible verse is John referencing @ 4:30 ? It seems like he’s making a simple concept confusing. God is love 1 John 4:8. The reason God loves is because that’s who he is, so the questioner need not be worried. I like that Piper over emphasizes Gods glory. I think we’re all going to be totally awestruck by his glory, but I think the issues raised in the questions are due to Piper saying things about Gods glory that the Bible doesn’t say. Hence my first question, chapter and verse on the comment he makes in 4:30
The Bible teaches that everything God does is directed towards glorifying himself. But the Bible also teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8) and that love is not self-seeking (1 Cor 13:5). So it can't be true that God loves people as a means of gaining something for himself. That wouldn't be love, at least the kind of love in view in 1 Cor 13. Instead, God must love people for their own benefit for it to be real love. Love is always other-directed, not self-directed. So let's think about the cross of Jesus Christ. This was an act directed towards God's self-glorification and it was an act of love for people. So how do we fit these things together? I think there are two possible ways we can fit them together: (1) We could say that the cross was directed towards God's self-glorification and was also an act of love IN PARALLEL TO THIS. Under this scenario, neither God's glorifying himself nor his love would be subsumed under the other. Rather, they would be two parallel aims in the cross. (2) We could say that everything God does is subsumed under his one overarching goal of glorifying himself, but that HE DOESN'T GLORIFY HIMSELF PURELY FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT. Under this scenario, part of the reason he glorifies himself is for the benefit of people. I am not sure which of these is right, but I think they would each make sense of how everything God does, including the cross, is directed towards his own glory and also how God loves us.
THIS is insightful and both are absolutely right! The question is what is God's glory and why is it so important that it be made known? God's glory is the all-encompassing, multifaceted, perfectly harmonious and marvelous revelation of himself, and since God had no needs in eternity past thus making him full of joy and passionate, burning love within himself, he could not have created from a place of need, anger, malice, or uncertainty, but from what he already possessed within himself with the desire to share it to a select unworthy, sinful, and helpless group of creatures to maximize it. The combination of all that God is in his nature and character makes him supremely loving and joyful, therefore who he is MUST be manifested (his glory) SO THAT, his creatures, particularly his redeemed, will possess what he has always possessed in eternity past-endless, passionate, burning love and joy because of him rather than ourselves or idols which sin deceives us to think can satisfy us yet they never could. God intends to stop our idolatry by showing himself to be infinitely righteous, gracious, merciful, faithful, powerful, wise, etc, so that we won't be miserable, condemned, and tortured for all eternity and he doesn't benefit anything that he didn't already have in full before he created us. Therefore this glorious revelation of himself is fully FOR US, and it results in us praising and worshipping him rather than him blessing us because he needs us to praise and worship him otherwise he would be a 'big, bad, grumpy, egotistical, needy, tyrant.' This is how the world, and even many Christians tend to respond when they hear that God does everything for his glory, so WE ALL need to know the end of that agenda and hear the phrase finished-God does everything for his glory AS A MEANS TO SHARING WITH US HIS SUPREME, EVERLASTING ESSENCE OF LOVE AND JOY IN HIM FOR OUR COMPLETE SATISFACTION FOREVER! So God is not needy and ultra-demanding, and mankind is not exalted to his place.
@@phieble Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You say that both of my scenarios are true. But I don't think they can both be true. They contradict each other to some extent. Also, you say that God doesn't benefit or gain anything he didn't previously have before he created us. I think that is going too far. Surely God gains a pleasure from creating us that he wouldn't have gained if he had never created us.
@@maxaplin4204 I would like to see where you think the two scenarios you presented contradict each other, as I think that it is a bit misconstrued to put God doing everything for his glory against doing it for the sake of love since they are the same thing. God's glory is the revelation of who he is and he is love, so God could not possibly do everything to show how great he is but somehow not have the intention that his love be made known and enjoyed. Also, while it gives God pleasure to have created and saved us, in a sense we cannot, strictly speaking, call this a new pleasure because the mind of God is so infinite and perfectly free and in control of things that when he planned our creation and salvation he was already enjoying it beforehand since in his mind and sovereign authority and power it was all already finished from whenever he conceived it, (IF THAT HAD A BEGINNING POINT! 🤯). God's joy is increasing from our perspective but it has no starting point or some area where it is dependent on events or waiting for the aftermath for it to increase because his plans are final and he dwells outside of time and space so that everything he intends happens and has already long happened insomuch that he can fully enjoy things long beforehand "Seeing the end from the beginning." So, to sum, his creation of us doesn't add to his joy and pleasure, it is rather a manifestation of the joy and pleasure he has always been experiencing due to the surety of his sovereign, loving conceptions, and it is gradually revealed to us as we experience in increasing measures what he already experienced and does repeatedly without ceasing. We can't fully understand this concept because we are so finite and our minds and plans don't work like God's nor do we dwell beyond time and space, but to say that God can gain something he didn't already have in any way presupposes lack of some sort, even if slightly or seemingly insignificantly, and I think that's an error. I think all of creation and providence in history is not to increase God's joy and pleasure but to express it from his heart and mind into manifest reality, but I could be overthinking way too much and flexing muscles that I don't get to use in conversations with brothers and sisters who are not so interested in delving deeply into theology, so please pardon me! 🤦♂️
@@phieble Firstly, I didn't actually explain my two scenarios well enough. In the first scenario, I was understanding God's self-glorification to be something that he does ultimately only for his own benefit. And then in the second scenario, I was understanding God's self-glorification to be something that he doesn't do ultimately only for his own benefit. So, to go into more detail than I did in my first comment on this thread, the scenarios would be as follows: (1) We could say that God had two parallel highest purposes in the cross: (a) it was directed towards God's self-glorification, this self-glorification being understood as something God does ultimately only for his own benefit; and (b) it was an act of love for human beings. Under this scenario, neither God's glorifying himself nor his love would be subordinate to the other. Rather, they would be two parallel purposes in the cross. One purpose would be self-directed and the other purpose would be other-directed. Under this scenario, the infinitely deep power and skill of God would be able to have these two parallel purposes in the cross. (2) We could say that God had only one highest purpose in the cross, which is his self-glorification. However, under this scenario God's purpose of self-glorification is not ultimately only for his own benefit. Part of the reason he wants to glorify himself is because that is for the benefit of human beings. Each of these scenarios would logically allow the cross of Christ to be an act of self-glorification by God and also an act of love. So what do you make of these two ideas? Judging by what you have written, I expect you are more sympathetic to (2) than to (1). Secondly, I stand by what I said about God gaining pleasure from creating us, but not as something that is gained through time. You rightly point out that God is not subject to time, so can't grow in pleasure through time. But I would say that God does have a pleasure from creating us THAT IS ETERNAL. So eternally, i.e., outside time, God has a pleasure from creating us that he would not have if he had not created us.
God's love is NOT SELFISH (agape). His Glory therefore is NOT SELFISH. BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE (agape). God's glory is manifested in the suffering and death of Christ, which He Himself asked for Himself to be glorified with, which was the glory that God the Father glorified Him since the foundation of the universe. Satan accused God of being selfish. Jesus disproved him at the cross where He was willing to not exist out of His love for us, and this is His glory: to risk not existing for us to continue existing. To die so that we might live.
There are a couple things wrong with things he said . One, human beings are not by NATURE atheistic. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Ecclesiastes 3:11 says God has set eternity in our hearts, meaning He’s set a longing for more. Romans 1 and the passage Piper sited only further show that God has given us everything even His creation to know He exists and that we are without exuse. The cerse talking about worshipping God rather than man is specifically about those who DENIED Gods power, looked at His creation which testify to Him and decided to worship creature rather than Creator. Man is NOT utterly depraved and incapable of choosing God. John Piper is phenomenal at preaching and a very wise man.. but don’t listen to him when speaking of Gods sovereignty and how this all comes into play. This answer reeks of Calvinist thought and unbiblical.
7:16 "There is a powerful atheistic tendency in every human heart. That's what it means to be fallen." Piper then references Rom 1:18. Including the next verse, it goes like this: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. I think Piper would agree with you that "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them," which is another way of saying "He has put eternity into man's heart" (Ecc 3:11). However. Let's look at the end of Ecc 3:11: He has put eternity into man's heart, *yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.* Men have "eternity in their hearts," making "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them." However, because of the fall, they "by their unrighteousness suppress the truth," meaning that they "cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." Lest we imagine that there are some people who are excluded from that truth-suppression-by-sin, Paul continues: "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12). Everyone who sins perishes, either because they were outside the law or because they were judged as guilty by the law. Who sins, then? "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.'" (Rom 3:9-12) All men deny God's power. All men have eternity in their hearts, but all men are unable to find out what God has done. All men suppress the truth by their unrighteousness. It's only the work of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit that can save us! (EDIT: You're right though, "atheistic nature" is imprecise language, and I think Piper would agree with you that it's nothing close to the whole story. We are born broken because of the fall, our true nature (what we were created to be) is marred. This inherent marring is what Piper called "atheistic nature," and what many theologians call "sin nature." But it's really a damage-of-nature. A lack of something, not an addition of something. So maybe this is all you were saying, and if so, I agree!)
Man's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9). Man is utterly depraved. Being depraved and not choosing God go hand in hand. When one does not choose God, they sink into the depravity that the Lord speaks of in the verse above. This is the reason why man has to be saved. Only God can change a depraved heart (Ezekiel 36:26). Man cannot do it on his own. I urge you to read Jeremiah chapter 35. In short, the Lord illustrates His point that man has an inability to choose the Lord on his own. We cannot, not will not, cannot choose the Lord.
Does God love us simply for His glory? No. Not if he is sovereign. Obviously not. Look around. Whatever /this/ is it seldom brings God glory. And even when it does, it does so only in the imagination of the believer who trains his heart to believe what he cannot see.
The sad fact is that Pastor John thinks we only love God and obey Him because He forces us to. Irresistible grace. Sproul quoted it as being the holy rape of the soul. Very grim.
Piper writes: “Christians communicate a falsehood to unbelievers…when we act as if policies and laws that protect life and freedom are more precious than being a certain kind of person.” Life and freedom not important? Really? Read history. (I’m ethnic Armenian, btw.)
I’m just surmising based on the quote but I don’t think he’s saying life and freedom aren’t important, just that they aren’t THE most important. Sometimes obeying God may even mean sacrificing our safety on this earth. It’s painful and certainly not wanted, but it’s always a possibility, especially if you live under oppressive rule.
@@17amandamarie I wish you were correct. It was his way of saying life and freedom take a back seat to being against Trump. He was consumed by his anti-Trump sentiment. (Article from 10-22-2020)
Well...let me ask this question. When you transition into the next life, which one will you take with you: policies, laws, and politicians; or being holy as the Lord is holy (Lev 11:44).
There is no glory for god in what he did to me. No glory at all. And i will testify only truth. So far god has brought himself disrepute in my life. I will not lie for him and call it glory. It has been horrible.
I'm sorry you have struggled and suffered. If you know Him, your story is not over. Patiently wait on Him. Study Job. I will pray for Him to show you great things coming from your hard road
@@everyonehasanopinion00000 I hate the story of Job. Makes me hate gods character. Hes so insecire about impressing satan that he sicks him onto him, destroys everything and then pats himself on the bavk for replqcing it? You can replace a watch. Replacing deqd children is not the same. He is a cruel heartless god.
@@kyleesharp378 My heart hurts for you. While I disagree with your overall conclusion, I neither mock nor minimize your feelings. In fact, I struggle with these same issues. Nevertheless, I believe God is good. I will not try to convince you, but I will pray for you and I care for you.
