Does Regeneration Precede Faith? The Depravity Debate Between Leighton Flowers and Joel Webbon 

Tells me there is something dreadfully wrong with his so called "faith". Calvinists believe in a false Gospel, false God and false Jesus... how can they be saved? They are victims, but they need to understand that what they believe in is NOT Christianity. It is Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized.

@@eiontactics9056 I just searched "Manichaean Gnosticism". OMG, I'm surprized.

@@eiontactics9056 spouting and parroting the same Flowerist nonsense ? Jesus saves sinners. He seeks and saves those whom He wills to seek and save . The semi-Pelagians have always sought to puff man up and to marginalize God's work in His creation . Their motto will always be : to man be the glory .

@@timothykring4772 Tim... I'm not parroting anyone but Scripture itself. You do realize that Calvinism is the most man-centered theology that exists? "God chose me", "I'm a chosen one, out of many who were not", etc. --- You have ZERO passages in Scripture that you believe that says Jesus died for you! You reject all passages that Scripture says Jesus tasted death for every man... so you don't actually know if Jesus died for you! You have to rely on YOUR own experiences and YOUR own works to have a guess that you are one of the gnostically "elect". No Calvinist has assurance that Jesus died for them in Scripture, because you reject the Gospel for a substitute (Calvinism). If you don't believe that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man, then you are not a Christian. Also, stop using terms that you actually don't know, like "Semi-Pelagian"... did you know that Pelagius didn't even believe what Augustine said about him? Augustine lied to make him look bad. We know this because we now have writings of Pelagius. Pelagius wasn't a "Pleagian" as ignorant Calvinists define it as. You need to stop following after your Calvinist Gurus "The great men of the faith" and start following Jesus Christ. Read Scripture and actually believe what it says. Stop using outside sources to tell you what to believe. That is your major flaw. Actually uphold to your 5 Solas, instead of pretending you do while you do the exact opposite... then you wouldn't be a Calvinist.

​@timothykring4772 nonsense

YES, that verse immediately popped into my head, too!

The point is who will believe…

those who believe. Belief comes from regeneration. Belief is a response to the miraculous drawing of the Father through the Spirit. 😊 (Belief is 100% the individual, but it is the fruit of God's WORK.) Therefore God gets all the glory.

@@Called_Out_Ones Yes, but there are those the father did not draw… ”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.“ ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I think he misspoke, because this is the entire point of Calvinism. When God pursues a man, they are saved always. God never fails, and will never lose that person. If you are trusting in Christ according to Calvinism, God loves you infinitely and will never let you go. He will finish that work

Yes!!! It’s amazing how simple the gospel becomes when you drop Calvinism

Lol, very random thing to say.

Just watching the Derek Webb interview, where it says he was a former calvinist turned a theist, he was never a Christian, a believer in Jesus Christ to begin with. I can't believe that I am only in the beginning of this quote-unquote debate and I'm hearing it this. I'm a Believer in Jesus Christ oh, that I am a sinner and that I was on my way to hell oh, because I was born a sinner. I didn't know that Calvinism and arminianism was supposed to be a debate. I believe what the Calvinists teach or believe before I ever knew these two words. I can't believe that we are debating the Bible. The Bible is not to be debated, it is to read and learn and grow in our Christian life here on Earth. Get away from the terms arminianism and Calvinism. Read your Bible and Learn and Grow from the Bible and from praying to the Lord, to give you understanding.

@@sherrytruitt1028 It's about interpretations and understandings. Even you have your own perspective from which you draw your conclusions. That's called a hermeneutic. Both of these groups have read the Bible and have come to different conclusions. A good debate is to figure out why that is. Either group A is wrong, group B is wrong, or most likely, they are both wrong in many aspects. But no point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Best, as iron sharpens iron, to surigically remove the cancer, but keep the healthy parts.

Enthusiasm comes with the good news of Jesus Christ! Calvinism strips one of joy and peace.

Joel is a calvin gamer he is very confusing and losing this debate badly!!!!! WHAT ABOUT HIS CHURCH A FALSE TEACHING? he is awful!

Joel is so cringe, it hurts.

That's funny! 😁

As a Calvinist, this is hilarious. 😂Blessings.

Exactly. Just like he hardened Pharaohs heart. Or did he ask pharaoh for permission first?🧐 Or just like he asked king Nebuchadnezzar if he could turn him into a mentally ill animal. Or just like he asked Jacob and Esau which one to hate? Oh that’s right he didn’t ask for permission why??? Because he’s God and he does whatsoever he desires and you sir CANNOT STAY HIS HAND

❤❤😂😂

I would certainly hate being a TULIP Calvanist and having to defend the "T" Word. He's already called receiving the gospel a Work. That's silly. Faith is not work.....faith is a gift.

Yeah, to Joel’s defense cross examination is the hardest portion of any debate. And Joel does not have an answer for every question like dr flowers.

@@TheRemnantRadio Good point. I don't think Joel was prepared to answer that question. I'd be interested to hear his best response to it. Joel had a good closing statement. The Calvinist perspective of the sovereignty of God has great emotional appeal. I think that comes at the expense, however, of the pleasure that God gets from our voluntary submission to him (Hebrews 11:6) and the attraction that God has despite the resistance of our flesh (John 3:19-21).

What does “flatten out” even mean?

In regards to Colossians 2:12 the dead sinner needs circumcision of the heart to make them spiritually sensitive to God. Spiritual circumcision precedes faith

You could tell as he was reading Colossians the flowers was ready to get moved on from it because he heard all the Calvinist language. But then the Calvinist conceded as if he didn't even understand what he was reading. Flowers can't get any scholars to debate so he's got a pick some rookie?

So, if you are drowing and I save your life, and as a result you are my friend, does that mean you are unwilling in the relationship because I didn't give you a choice whether I was going to save you or not?

Actually, you can’t have a relationship with a dead person; therefor the Holy Spirit-without our permission- brings dry bones to life in a sovereign, decisive act of _His_ will, not ours. That’s what the Bible teaches. “Dead in your sins and trespasses” means _dead._ the Pelagian heresy is disgusting, and Flowers is a heretic in that tradition.

You guys are so silly lol. Love isn't a metaphor. Drowning is. Being dead Is. Love is literally what is going on in real life. Put your metaphors back in your playbox, let's please deal with truth and reality. We're talking about actual meaningful love. Nobody is physically dead. Nobody is literally drowning. We are literally in a mutually loving relationship. If you don't believe that, may God have mercy on your souls.

@@matthewdyer2926 ummmmmmm. Lol

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans.9:15-16) 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2tim.2:9) 13But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through ]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2th.2:13) Amen 🙏 These verses can't make it anymore clear. Please Give full glory to God's grace . Sovereign free grace is clearly taught in God's Word. Also scripture teaches the responsibility of man. Christ died for all. But All who are truly regenerated born again are the elect. God is all knowing, powerful and ordained everything that comes to pass from all eternity cause He is God and He evry right to have mercy on whom He pleases. Amen

acts 17:27

@@stevenaguilera9202 Amen. I guess God didn't know about regenerating people before they can believe!

But remember Mike you don’t seek God no one seeks after God all have gone astray as Paul has said. Though this verse says that they would seek God God first has to change their heart so they do seek

@@MikejMartin Well I see no evidence that people are regenerated before they come to Christ. God can draw men by his Spirit's conviction, the preaching of the Gospel, or by miracles, but in the end they decide if they will follow Christ. "No one seeks God" is a hyperbole, sometimes found in Psalms, which Paul used to show that all men are sinners, but he wasn't trying to show no one seeks God without first being regenerated, amen? God bless.

Except for Joel’s opening statement was a complete purposeful misrepresentation of what Leighton believes. Done purposefully to set up a strawman so that he has something to defeat because he can’t defeat the truth Leighton actually brought to him.

Totally agree, I can name at least ten Calvinist that can engage and do a much better job than James White all due respect.

It’s too bad his son is a complete heretic though. Very said.

My jaw dropped when I heard that

Your poor little god can do nothing about evil.

@@ThomasCranmer1959 on the contrary. God is sovereign. His will can never be thwarted. your understanding of God is that He is the author of evil. With a Calvinistic God, who needs the devil. It’s no wonder why the system creates and supports so many atheists.

@mayorrodgers7446 You are outright lying. Your view is that God's love causes evil. Your god decided to give Adam libertarian free will, foreknowing that Adam would choose evil. So how does libertarian free will get God off the hook? Secondly, God does not need any creature. Satan is merely an instrument in God's hand. God predestined the fall of Satan from heaven and the fall of Adam in the garden of Eden. God is sovereign and His decretal will cannot be thwarted. Before the fall Adam's will was not free from God's decretal will. After the fall Adam's will was enslaved by sin.

I have no idea what your reference is in regards to Jesus. However, Jesus was fully human and limited in every way any other human is limited in His human nature. The hypostatic union means that neither of two natures is changed by the other in the hypostatic union of the divine nature and human nature.

Yes, very clear a 4 year old can understand it. Shocks me how blind Calvinism makes people.

@@eiontactics9056 So you're a universalist?

@@benjamincase1427 Why does every Calvinist not understand that Universalism is only an issue for you? You are the ones that improperly define the word "draw" like it means "irresistible grace", when nothing of the sort is even in the Bible. Draw means to attract. (It is an affectionate attraction)... a good example would be not seeing your father for several years and then you see him one day. You would be drawn to go talk to him. So, just because in John 12 when Jesus says that If He is lifted up from the earth, He will draw all men to Himself... that does not mean Universalism. It just means that all men will have the ability to come to Him through the Gospel, as preached by the Apostles.

@@eiontactics9056 Assuming that's a no, is it your position then that Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to save everyone for whom it was offered?

The Total Victory of Christ RU-vid channel

😂😂😂

😂

Flowers gangsta untill James White comes in

@@emanuilgoshev350 that was a terrible joke, relax.

@@emanuilgoshev350 James White would probably just be like "Well, I'm terribly disillusioned that he apparently is just here to drink water. I was expecting for him to talk more Romans 9". This after listening to Flower's speak for 20 minutes on Romans 9.

I couldn't believe that. Like, is this for real!! 😱😱😱

Boom

@@TheGillimcwilli why couldn't you believe that a Calvinist would be arrogant with anyone who disagreed with their lies ? Even GOD..

Can you imagine telling believers: actually we need to follow Calvin here, rather than Jesus? Regarding compassion for the lost, Jesus actually gets it wrong!

@@chaddonal4331 They follow the wrong JC.

Flowers is heretical on several points. He is a self avowed pelagian when he says that people become sinners when they reach an age of accountability. Psalm 58:3 (KJV 1900): The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900): Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. Exodus 20:5-6 (KJV 1900): Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

@@ThomasCranmer1959 laughable. Tell me, have you even read Pelagian?

@@ThomasCranmer1959 at what point does Flowers say people become sinners at the age of accountability? Give me a source.

@@DrVarner It's in the Q&A at the end and during the debate. He flatly said that people do not inherit a sinful nature from their parents. Even Arminians do not deny original sin. John Wesley has an entire sermon on original sin in his 52 Standard Sermons. Furthermore, Flowers is too dense to realize that Whitefield's doctrine of effectual call is the same thing as regeneration. As for Colossians 2:12? It equates the resurrection of Christ with God's raising of the sinner from the dead. Through faith? That is the immediate response to being raised from spiritual death: Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV 1900): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Ephesians 2:1-6 (KJV 1900): And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

@DrVarner I think you mean Pelagius. Yes. I read except during my seminary training at Asbury. Jerry Walls was my apologetics professor. Walls convinced me to become a Calvinist because his arguments were so bad.

Both lost as the devil antichrists. So, what's the point?

​@Aaron Marshall How are they antichrists? What view would you say is Biblical? Not asking to be contentious. Just curious on your perspective on the ordeal.

@@GhostBearCommanderhe has no clue they aren’t antichrists. He must think himself perfect to say such a thing

Praise Jesus Christ every day for His grace and mercy! His grace is sufficient.

Leighton Flowers wouldn't know the simple Gospel if it slapped him in the face. Wait. It has in numerous debates and he's still confused. Nevermind.

@@jamesgasaway7784 Interesting...If you're an exhaustive divine determinist of any variety, then you've just made God the Author of confusion and Scripture clearly states that He is not...maybe it is those who hold on to Calvinistic exhaustive divine determinism who are confused? Have you thought of that? Oh wait, you're not really free to think, only to think what you're determined to think. These and other incoherent or contradictory issues is what Leigton has been successfully pushing back on.

@@titosantiago3694 I'm no great fan of Leighton's opponent in this debate, but I wonder what you'd say regarding his interaction with someone like James White. I'm not sure any serious-minded person can watch their debate and still think Leighton knows what he's doing. In any case, I must challenge the foundation of your primary critique. That is, just because you're (apparently) confused, it doesn't mean God is to blame.

@@titosantiago3694 In any case, I suggest taking some time to examine your motivation in resisting the clear Scriptural definition of man as incapable of repentance. Invariably it's a question of man's pursuit of sharing God's glory. I suspect you may not be ready to admit that, but I trust that time and serious study will bring you into a right humility as a helpless sinner before a holy God.

More like Calvinism took a nosedive. Its unfortunate that one can be so indoctrinated, that they'll even overlook the very necessity of the Messiah just to hold fast to their view.

If Calvinism was true people would only grow as much as God decreed for them to grow.

Under provisionism, it's very possible and hopefully likely. Under Calvinism, the only ones who could possibly grow in faith and understanding are the ones listening who were "chosen". The rest are out of luck.

22:43 the wording Dr. Flowers uses is very interesting to me. “And by responsibility, we mean, yes, what it connotes; the ability to respond, in faith, to the inspired truth that was sent to HELP set people free from their bondage.” John 8:34-36 (NASB): 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. It’s THE truth, THE Son, that makes men free. The gospel is proclaimed to all men, those who have been set free by the Son will cling to the mercy and grace offered at the cross of Christ.

Yes... The Son sets free whosever confesses his bondage and places trust in Him.

Jesus was sent that believers would have everlasting life.

Thst was the best response i have ever heard. Well said. Jesus said the we being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more our heavenly father. So are we more compassionate than he? Unfortunately some actually believe so. Calvanists would say we dont know what is good and evil, i happened to read in Genesis that was the tree that adam n eve ate from. All of humanity knows in their spirit what is good n evil. Again, very well said. Excellent.

I would rather be a Christian and follow Christ than follow a man called Calvin who's teaching is dangerous. If God chooses people for Salvation then it would appear that Jesus the Son of the living God died and suffered in vain.

"I would say to the Calvinists, look to the attributes of God. A loving sacrificial God, who sent his son to die for us -would never purposely send innocent people to hell from before their birth even babies if they’re not “elect”. " This is a pretty flawed argument. There is no innocent person, we are all guilty of death and eternal damnation from the the womb. As the psalms say "In sin my mother conceived me". God doesn't send innocent people to hell because they were elect. God saves the very people who murdered his own Son (Jesus) from hell out of his loving kindness towards them. And whats more, he used the fact that they murdered his son as the means of saving them. Amen that God is loving and sacrificial, but to pretend that humans are ever innocent is to deny the scripture. The God of scripture saves even the most heinous creature of his choosing, not because that person deserves it, or was owed it, or chose it, but because of his own loving kindness.

Thers nothing biblical abt anything of your statement. We can't create our own image of God the way we want to believe Him. That's idolatry. Pagan view. Thers no darkness in God He is infinitely perfect in all His attributes and His word is perfect. 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy (Rom:9.15-16) 13But we are boundaries to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2th.2:13) 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2tim:2.9) Amen 🙏

There is no such thing as "chance". Proverbs 16:33 (KJV 1900): The lot is cast into the lap; But the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

Not a secondary means. There is only one means and that is grace through faith. Faith may take place after regeneration but it is not another means of salvation. It is the result of having a new spirit.

@@OC3707 is faith and regeneration two separate things?

It certainly is.

Yikes

It denies many scriptures and takes Gods sovereignty and gives it to man’s decisions and actions and WILL (the exact thing it says it is not by). Humans want control and cannot stand the idea of not working for heaven, but if you are in the book…it wasn’t because you chose to be written in it lol

​@Ben Pat Those who will hear," Depart " from the lips of our Savior, are I deed free willers. They were explaining to Jesus,that they thought was their Savior ,that they did MANY " good works" by their free will, when they didn't have to and this is also the reason that they thought they believed, that THEY ACCEPTED JESUS, WHEN THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. This is the wickedness that Jesus was talking about. So when Jesus told them that He never knew them, He was telling them that He never loved them.

The wicked man denies that Faith is a gift from God,they want to believe that slaves to sin can conjure faith by themselves,in this God hating state,and then trade it to God so God must give them the new birth and salvation .Question:If man can believe in their spiritually dead state,why would they then need the new birth?

😆 the truth is, it is because Calvinism is obviously false... 🙄 literally if I read the Gospel to a 5 year old then told them about Calvinism they would think it is not right. It boggles my mind how an adult that is capable of a 10th grade reading comprehensive can read the Bible and still be a Calvinist.

Same thought I was having. I’m really trying to hear him out but his performance voice is distracting me.

Absolute cringe. 😂

Pat Eunuchity Truth over tradition is what I say. Unless the particular tradition is in line with the truth... If that makes sense.

Ya I didn't think so at all. As a provisionist, primarily because of Flowers, I think that Webbon was stating his case more clearly and succinctly at first. Flowers didn't hit his stride until the question and answer period and finally came out on top.

Seeing Leighton flowers 'debate' is embarrassing. He 'debated' James White on Romans 9 or should I say did not even go near the text. Why? Because he exposes his inability to defend his Arminian position. Cringy.

shane mahoney the fact that guy actually think Leighton is an Arminian just highlights your ignorance and doesn’t give any credence to your comment at all. Very cringey.

Pat Eunuchity I hold to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Word which never needed reforming.

Your ignorance of the doctrine of the incarnation rivals that of Flowers. Jesus was a genuine human being and a man. He was also fully God. But was Jesus omniscient in his human nature? No. Try again

Theatrical. That’s it. I was looking for the right word in my mind and thought ‘dramatic’ but theatrical nails it.

The Calvinist's style not only feels that way, but also full of falsehoods about the other perspective. For example, the insistence that non-Calvinists believe that they can earn their salvation by faith. Calvinists consistently label faith as a work in this case because it holds up their strawman!

@@ThomasCranmer1959 your statement is confusing to me. Perhaps you can help me out. First off it does not seem to address anything that is being said in this thread. Besides that; has Flowers very indicated that he thinks that Jesus was omniscient on earth? Genuine question. I haven’t heard him say that.

@@mayorrodgers7446 Flowers equivocates and dodges the real issues and plays to his audience. Did Flowers say Jesus is not omniscient in His human mind and soul? Yes or no?

Where?

Pat Eunuchity God was the first mover. He sent His Son. Wake up.

João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold where??? Ummmm: ... According to Romans 10:10 you BELIEVE UNTO righteousness not the other way around. You’re NOT made righteous first so as to believe: ROMANS 10:9,10 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. 10 For with the heart man BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:26 are we made children of God and then believe or do we believe first in order to become children of God? GALATIANS 3:26 26 For ye are all the children of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. The order is crystal clear in this verse. *************************************** ...According to Ephesians 1:13 did you believe BEFORE or after you received the Holy Spirit? EPHESIANS 1:13 13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, The order is crystal clear in this passage that we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise AFTER we believe and NOT the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:14 we receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH: GALATIANS 3:14 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit THROUGH FAITH. The order is crystal clear in this passage that we receive the promise of the Spirit through FAITH and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Romans 3:22 is the righteousness of God BY faith or does faith come after the righteousness of God comes? ROMANS 3:22 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference: The order is crystal clear in this passage the righteousness of God is unto all that BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to John 20:31 do you have life first so as to then believe or do you believe so as to then have life? JOHN 20:31 31 But these are written, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE THROUGH HIS NAME. *BELIEVE FIRST THEN HAVE LIFE.* It doesn’t say you’re made alive so as to believe. God’s word is written that you might believe! NOT “your heart is changed that you might believe.” *************************************** ...According to Romans 4:3 was Abraham made righteous so as to believe, or did he have to believe FIRST? ROMANS 4:3 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was countered unto him for righteousness. The order is crystal clear in this passage in that we’re counted righteous after we BELIEVE and not the other way around as you claim. *************************************** ...According to Romans 5:1,2 how do we access the grace of God? Is it by faith? Or do we access the faith by grace? ROMANS 5:1,2 1 Therefore being justified BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. The order is crystal clear in this verse. *************************************** ...According to Acts 13:39 do you receive justification prior to faith in Christ? Can you be born again before being justified??? OF COURSE NOT! ACTS 13:39 39 And by him all that BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. *************************************** ...According to Acts 16:30,31 are you saved before believing or after believing? Does this verse mention anything about having to be one of the chosen few and then regenerated first or is it simply BELIEVE? ACTS 16:30,31 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. *************************************** ...According to John 7:38 do you have living water first before you believe or does it flow out AFTER you believe? ...According to Acts 7:39 do you receive Him by faith first and THEN God gives you the power of the Holy Spirit or is it the other way around? JOHN 7:38 38 He that BELIEVETH on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM SHOULD RECEIVE: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) *This scripture clearly says they that BELIEVE on Him receive the Holy Spirit.* The Holy Spirit ISN’T given first so as to believe. You don’t receive it UNTIL you believe. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 3:2-5 do you receive faith by the Spirit first or do you receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith? According to Galatians 3:2 is this considered a work of the law or is Paul actually contrasting it to a work? GALATIANS 3:2-5 2 This only would I learn of you, RECEIVED YE THE SPIRIT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 HE THEREFORE THAT MINISTERETH TO YOU THE SPIRIT, and worketh miracles among you, DOETH HE IT by the works of the law, or BY THE HEARING OF FAITH? Do you reject all these passages of scripture?

@@apilkey Nope, I don't reject them. But can you give me one, just ONE passage that talks about how your faith comes before being born again? You showed passages that show how faith precedes righteousness, or that faith precedes the seal of the Spirit.

João Pedro Macimiano Trabbold What do you think it means to be “born again”? Being regenerated/quickened or born again is not simply a cute little heart change. It’s a full on spiritual operation of God WITH CHRIST that involves your SPIRIT first and foremost. ...According to Romans 2:29 Regeneration/born again is the act of God which is a spiritual circumcision of the heart IN THE SPIRIT. Therefore it’s impossible to be circumcised prior to Christ for the very act of circumcision is OF CHRIST: ROMANS 2:29 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and CIRCUMCISION is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. *************************************** ...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ; therefore it’s impossible to be regenerated or quickened by the spirit beforehand. We know this because nothing can be quickened lest it die FIRST. And we also know we’re not quickened and then die because then we’d have to be quickened AGAIN a second time! You die (crucified with Christ/buried in baptism) FIRST, and THEN you’re risen to new life WITH Christ by the very operation of God as a totally new creature with old things passed away. This is 100% of God with zero human involvement. ...According to Galatians 2:20 we’re crucified WITH Christ: GALATIANS 2:20 20 I am CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. A new heart is only a fraction of the operation. Regeneration can only happen WITH Christ because it actually involves Him at the very centre. You can’t remove Christ from the process as it revolves around Him. It involves being BURIED with Him in spiritual baptism and being CRUCIFIED with Him and then RISING TO NEW LIFE having put off the man of sin and putting on the new man. Totally new creature. Totally new creation. Old is passed away. *How can you have all these things before or without Christ?* *The process of regeneration gives you eternal life so how can you have eternal life BEFORE CHRIST?* None of this is possible before coming to Christ and we know we come to Christ THROUGH FAITH. We are born again when we’re raised to life with Christ and before we can be risen with Him we must die with Him. *How can you be quickened before you die?*

That’s all it boils down to. We just have to read more, study more, pray for discernment, pray for wisdom, and pray for understanding. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

Some people just have a different speaking voice. He is used to preaching in a certain setting, and he went into preaching mode for his tone and style. I certainly don't think that lost him the debate. I think his arguments lost him the debate.

Troy Mulberry oh not I’m certain it didn’t. It was just slightly odd to hear is all. No knock against him at all. My apologies if you thought so.

I noticed it too and it is odd but yet and still I like it lol. It's satisfying for some reason.

Anyone else think that if someone judges a debate off of any thing other than the content (physical appearance,accent, tone,etc.) is void of any coherent thought?

@@triggerwarning2982 Agreed. However, if you are applying this passive-aggressively to OP, you would do well to know that was not the intention of the comment.

What minute does he say that?

1:26:35

No he isn’t. He’s an expert at muddying clear waters and twisting the word of God to fit his carnal fancy, but he’s abysmal at soteriology.

​@@matthewdyer2926Take your ball and go home, you baby. If you can't understand the pure logic of his presentation then you better live with tutors.

I don’t know how provisionist can believe Jesus can give someone eternal life but just as they can come to Christ they can walk away and incur God’s wrath. Leighton said before someone can leave their salvation but Jesus said I give them eternal life and they will never perish . So, if salvation is conditional meaning not walking away or leaving your salvation then, where is your assurance? If Christ isn’t your assurance and it’s your faithfulness to Him that is your assurance then the promises of eternal life presently is double talk from Jesus or provisionist are wrong.

Once save always saved? You just pointed out another inconsistency with provisionalism. @@Animosity-yj7um

@@Animosity-yj7um Correct. Salvation is conditioned upon you putting your Faith in Christ as your Lord and Savior. From a human perspective we can only tell if someone is saved or not by their fruit. So if someone is actively living in sin and saying that Christ is not their Lord than yes I am not going to think they are Saved even if they previously confessed to know Jesus. Calvinist would think what? Their previous Faith and "good works", even as a Calvinist lets say, was just God fooling that individual into thinking that God had chose him as one of the Elect? How do you know you are Elect my friend? God could just be fooling you. I believe based on scripture that I have assurance because scripture says that "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," Eph 2:8. Salvation is a gift of God that anyone can accept if they put their Faith in Jesus. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Romans 6:23

I'm glad to hear that you've been set free from calvinism as it is not from THE SPIRIT OF GOD . May GOD bless and keep you brother oh hell no .

You have become a Pelegian if you follow Flower's flawed method.

@@ernestojlassus1354 you're so deceived. You simply don't believe a book called the Bible if you're a blasphemous calvinist . Calvinism is blasphemy as it deems CHRIST deceitful and distorted the gospel of CHRIST as it pushes limited atonement becoming an enemy of CHRIST .

@@ernestojlassus1354 you need to seriously study Pelagianism my friend, as well as Provisionalism, because neither I nor Leighton Flowers is even semi-Pelagian. No worries though, since I was obviously predestined to become an ex-Calvinist.

@@ernestojlassus1354 You must have been predetermined to leave a comment devoid of reason, logic, or persuasion. 😁

I suggest you check out some of my comments

I’m a bit skeptical about the Provisionist perspective, I think it Originated with Leighton flowers. It seems to me that it is new.

@@aleczamora6993 How much of the antinicean fathers have you read?

@@pateunuchity884 You need to read more provisionist scholars. 😂 Calvinists think God only knows because he determined it. (Which is a fallacy of infinite regression)

@@pateunuchity884 I’ve heard Calvinist explain their view against middle knowledge like that.

Only an idiot thinks that accepting help from Someone when drowning means contributing to his salvation.

Edit. Pleasure to hear and learn from Leighton. Not Joel

Do you mean murder their opponent like John Calvin did?

The One He sent to save the lost sheep of His Father’s flock. They will believe Him and know His voice and will not follow a stranger.

Haha thanks for explaining that. I felt so dumb that I didn’t get it. This is all new to me.

But Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved... There is no option to reject God's salvation for the one for whom Jesus made atonement.

@@lawrencestanley8989 "Jesus' point in John 6 is that if the Father gives an individual to the Son, he will be saved.." is it? is that what it means to be given to the Son? Because I'm pretty sure every knee will bow and there will be A LOT of knees that are going to go directly to hell after they recognize that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God The Father...(John 5:27, Luke 19:27, Rev 19:15,)

@@inTruthbyGrace You are equating adoption as sons with the forced obeisance of a conquered enemy?

Leighton Flowers is no tulip.

😬😬😬

Not a Calvinist but I know a lot of Calvinists do better. Don’t worry, us who understand your systematic understand what he said there isn’t representative of all of you.

@@ryanwall5760 that’s a kind word, brother.

No problem, brother. I don’t want to misrepresent of malign anyone, much less a brother and I’ll go as far to say that Joel on his best day would probably give a better answer.

@@ryanwall5760 It actually does represent Calvinism. They reject Scripture for their paradigm. They worship a false God and Jesus. They preach a false Gospel. These people are victims, but ultimately they are Manichaean Gnosticism Christianized. They are not Christians.

No one in the flesh can be humble.... That's not remotely biblical or practically true.

@@remnant8898 are you saying the Spirit of God does not cause people to become humbled to believe on Jesus?

LOL at leighton.

Flowers is a Pelagian who taught- “ If I ought I can”. Heresy

​@@marksorenson5871 I like how you jump right to name calling, classic! It seems to me that the origin of TULIP is man, not the Bible, and its foundation is Augustine's doctrine of original sin (which is based on a mistranslation of Romans 5:12 as everyone knows). But you can believe it if you like! Peace

😂 but you causally impugn the character of God with your arrogant elitist elevation of the autonomy of the creature to unbiblical levels. Keep pumping up humanistic heretical views of man’s autonomy. Hard Pass, I’ll take Biblical truth and The Glory of God over your man made silliness

As long as our "brothers" are not preaching a false gospel, another God, another Spirit and another Jesus. Let them be accursed.

You can't just both be right. There has to be a universal truth to these things. Anything else is heresy

I will go with the view that did not stem from Stoicism and Gnosticism, both which were called heresies by the apostles.

ergo vis a vis, calvinists are blind.. so straight forward.

@@pateunuchity884 hahaha. James White's treatment of Leighton is what brought that on. You have only JW to thank for that As do I. Those were some tasty hotdogs.

@@pateunuchity884 Leighton himself has reprimanded his viewers several times for their conduct towards Calvinists. That being said, we have free will, and people are inevitably going to do things you don't wish them to do. I can also say for certain that many followers of Soteriology 101 have been hurt by Calvinist theology and have an axe to grind. It's unchristlike to seek vengeance against those who wronged you theologically, but we can at least say that they act on their free will rather than being determined by either their nature or God to act that way.

@@pateunuchity884 Don't ask me, I'm not Leighton and I'm certainly not God.

@@pateunuchity884 I for one agree, that James White's books should probably be burned, not read. He has traded the truth for a lie and is teaching false doctrine, and unable to hear rebuke or correction.

@@pateunuchity884 I don't think Calvinists are heretics. I do think their position is untenable from a logical and biblical perspective. Many people on the provisionist camp do believe that they're heretics and it's something I wish people don't hold on to. Bitterness is unchristlike and does not allow for healing to happen. Then agian, I'm a nobody; people aren't going to listen to me. Citations work because it backs your words with the words of more esteemed people.

😅😅 not his greatest moment, but he's one of the most humble yet at the same time zealous and bold men I've ever heard nonetheless

Yes he lost me there. Obviously not an experienced debater.

A deeply troubling moment. Calvinism has a fatal flaw of God being divided within Himself with "2 wills" that oppose each other. But this goes even further to divide Jesus' will from the Father's. This isn't merely a garden moment of him humanly expressing his anguish of the torture to come to himself. This is Jesus grieving the plight of lost sinners whom Calvinism claims that God has destined and purposed for His glory. Are we to be like Jesus or like God, in such a case? This puts followers of Christ against followers of God.

I really don't understand how Calvinism can exist with verses like this that clearly say, in context, the way it actually works. They're so used to trading in the truth for a lie that they can't see the truth anymore :(

@@christian_gamer_guy6447 I guess Calvinism provides the neccesary Groupthink some need to stay on top in every conversation. The power to declare who is saved and not is important to them. Isn’t it ironic that this verse Eph 1:13 disproving their foundational doctrines is right smack in the middle of a chapter they claim as their own? 😊

@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Yeah... they literally have to overlook Scripture because they hold Calvinism as their highest authority. The more I learn and listen from Calvinists the more disgusted and sad I get. These people are sadly, false Christians. Manichaean Gnostics Christianized. They are in the snare of the devil. Pray for them.

Exactly. Also, if by will they are referring to God’s decrees, He doesn’t decree everything little move that occurs. There are certain things that He has certainly decreed and one way or another He will make them come about. The incarnation, the cross, His resurrection, His second coming, etc.

Many years ago James White wrote a book showing the truth about this verse. Read in context, the "not willing that any should perish" clearly refers to all the elect throughout history. Peter is writing to Christians, not nonchristians, who are eagerly awaiting Jesus' return. On the other hand, mockers and other antagonists also mentioned in the same letter are promised severe punishment. The intended audience is very clearly deliniated.

Funny thing is, Joel rejects the gift

@reported theologian Calvinism-"When being better than everyone else ain't good enough"

But he didn’t offer that same gift to everyone, oops 😂

@@jakefehr5863 Why would he? It was to illustrate his point and stance in the debate.

They don't...they sacrifice the assurance of the Holy Spirit for false humility, ignoring scripture.

They'll say that if you believe you're elect

@@tommysuriel Yes, but many of them who truly truly truly believed and believed they believed fell away. Joshua Harris. Derek Webb. Serious Calvinists who are now atheists. How do you know? If they didn’t make it…

@@laurakosch Yeah but this is not a calvinist issue only, this happens in general in Christianity, if you go from Christian to atheist you never really truly believed, or secretly became satanist, I don't care what you say.

@@tommysuriel So, back to Calvinism. You can’t know if you are elect, because the litmus test of “I believe” is inadequate

@Harold Zwingley Exactly. Which is all the more reason to believe in it. We couldn't deserve hell at all if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't have any responsibility.

He's wrong.

@@TheJpep2424 elaborate?

But Eddie Munster is still an embarrassment.