Does the Fuel You Choose Matter? | Engine Masters | MotorTrend 

Some EFI systems have enough room with the injectors, from what I have seen Asian EFI does not, the injectors are sized very close to what the engine needs on gasoline without much room to flow more. Testing my LS engines I can run E50 and not get a lean bank code but the duty cycle gets real short. E30 works without a problem in most carbs, and does well with US made EFI. Until you throw boost at it, the pumps are usually adequate in domestic vehicles to run E85, so its usually injector swaps and a retune. With carbs its more than just a jet swap, main circuit, idle circuit, power valve restrictions, accel pump, all need a bit of massaging, but its not hard to do. Sometimes its 30% larger, sometimes its less, flow rates vary a bit through different sized and shaped circuits/orifices and at different pressures/vacuum. Air bleeds can make the mix go quite rich or very lean, so can float levels. I like to sneak up on it when I convert Qjets, because if you go too big the mileage benefit of the Qjet goes away. With a Holley, you're usually going more for power than anything else. Best power is not at stoich with alcohol fuels, since they are carrying more oxygen you can throw more fuel at it and pick up power... to a certain point. On E85 and NA best power is around 7.5:1 AFR, and best mileage is between 8.5:1 and 9.5:1. The cool thing about running E85 is you can throw a lot of boost at it, or run VERY high compression. One of my daily driver 455 Pontiacs has 13:1,the 65 GTO has 11.5:1, and the 505 I am building at the moment is just short of 12:1, but the 505 is probably not going to end up being a mileage mule, unless I want to get silly.

I remapped my car to e85 (diy) and the stock injectors were good (although getting high in duty cycle, around 90% so there wasn't much headroom left). I later supercharged it and surprisingly the stock fuel pump could still keep up! This was just a little Honda though. 4 1000cc injectors that flow roughly 850cc at my fuel pressure. Sadly I don't have access to e85 anymore (I moved) so it's back to gasoline. I daily drove e85 for years and 140k miles in that car.

Also not mentioned is if the computer/knock sensor was pulling some timing out around torque peak RPMs on 87 octane gasoline...

I run E85 in a stupid little mini bike I have with basically an outlaw/unlimited 212cc race kart engine on it, and I need to drill the seat for the float needle. After about 10-15 seconds it bogs lean because the bowl is almost empty, but it's going about 60-65at that point so maybe it's a good thing. 😆

most stock fuel systems can handle e85, the only issue is you will lose a lot of headroom on your injectors and you will most likely have to increase the fuel pressure on your fuel pressure regulator before changing out the fuel pump. But, it is recommended to upgrade to a system that gives you more of that headroom..

Huuuuehaaaat

😂

If only race gas was so cheap I could use it in the land mower 💔

2 years ago I watched an old guy ( like me) fill his lawn mower gas can with 110 ( station right near a race track ) I said "ya know 87 is a lot cheaper " he replied " this smells like I'm at the races "

@@privatedata665 just got 2 gallons the other day while Miami town Ohio near Edgewater drag strip for nine dollars a gallon. Surprisingly it has not changed an increase since all other gas skyrocketed due to planning>

Until you get to reversing pistons.

I had to look up the word "minutiae"

@@MarioLoco03 Dont get hung up on the little stuff 😂

@Nphekt 🙄

I often find their methods of research somewhat less than scientific. There are sometimes variables completely ignored and/or unaccounted for.

15.2:1!!! Wow. What do you crank that thing with? A small block? 🤣

@@magnumcipher4971. 15:1 is right there with the compression levels of a Diesel engine. That’s really impressive for a gasser

@@magnumcipher4971 That's with flat top Pistons too. The heads have been flat milled to 50ccs. It's not particularly hard to start. The car has 2 batteries because I don't run an alternators,still at 12 volts tho. I spin it with the starter a couple of times before turning on the ignition and it usually fires right up.

@@TL-angzarr that sounds like a Boss Hog of an engine you created. I'd like to see a video of your runs/ passes.🤠🏁

@@magnumcipher4971 🤣🤣

I’m saving over $2/PG running E85 over Non-E. E-85 is currently $1.979/gallon. With the current setup on my FFV, I’ve managed to match the C/H miles between gas & e85…V8 engine

Prop is best plus oil don't go to waste

I'll let you know what the difference is in a couple weeks, going from 98 Oct unleaded to e85 in a supercharged stroker ls1 6.3l

Our an engine with A compression ratio. Like 12:1 is a baseline for a nat asp usually.... I mean an RS5 runs 2,5 bar manifold pressure and 11,5:1.

Stustustu boost leak engine takes a dump video over, exciting.

I'd like to see boosted comparisons as well.

they sort of addressed that, much like if the engine was much higher comp ratio, then there would be more visible gains in higher octanes. I would love to see another video where they do a comparison of boosted fuels and maybe even have the bench mark be the HP outcome. like to make 600 hp, how much boost per fuel or something like that

The point of the test is to prove that if you don’t have detonation with X octane, using higher octane won’t make a difference. It doesn’t matter if it’s forced induction or not. If it’s not knocking, it’s not knocking.

I did a much more scientific video on my channel about this three years ago. The methanol engine will run cooler under certain circumstances.

The guy doing the video is using the wrong fuel for his body and to much of it .

i'm not a engine master, But do they have to text everything on a 500HP engine?? Do it on a stock LS2 or something

hey we all know what fuel does what, this is an anomaly in very set controlled conditions......heat and compression and the great equalizers here everyone and they do touch on that some.

@@willymaze368 Dude, it's a cammed LS. Nothing special.

It needs to be tested on 12.1 compression engine, that will show you the difference.

@@dailydrivenmuscle. exactly. Waste of time to go beyond 87 if the engine does not have a problem with it.

Exactly. It world be completely different, cylinder pressures are through the roof compared to NA. I picked up 40hp going from e10 to e25 on my 1JZ-GTE

Not when it's the company paying for it

I think motor trend can afford it, considering all their sponsored content from manufacturers.

This was prolly filmed before the PLANDEMIC...

@@BuzzLOLOL looked like during since they had mask on in the engine room.

REEEEEEEEEEEE! Thanks Gavin

He’s 54

He was born in 1968 ,you do the math

I hope you build engines better than you do math...

E85 is the common man’s race gas. Just have to tune the engine to take advantage of it.

If you are getting bad gas. Use a different gas station. This is not bad gas. Just different gas.

High throttle under load is usually when cars ping (such as accelerating or going uphill), but on stock cars that is when the EGR will start to open.

It can be bad gas, any e-10 fuel can actually hold the same amount of volume of water as ethanol. And if it truly holds 10%eth, then it can also hold 10% water, and if it’s fully saturated the water can drop out with temperature or pressure changes. But if it’s near saturation but not dropping out, it’s probably causing a slight misfire, not pre det. Most factory built and tuned, unmodified cars won’t see a problem with 87 or 91 (where I live that’s regular and plus, premium is 93/94) under most operating conditions, even when really hot ambient temperatures occur. But you may start getting det with mods, or a tune, or the hand held tuners/chips under low rpm, high load

The water brake style engine dynos don’t work well at low rpm. There isn’t enough water being pumped for it to load the engine down. You can make some changes to get it to load at low rpm, but then it may not work at higher rpm.

@@SophiaAphrodite "bad gas" could just be him saying lower octane than the engine wants. I used to put regular in my turbo car for long trips when I just burned through fuel. It would ping if I got into boost more than a few lbs. On a side note I was always curious if a service station would lie and sell regular as premium, or have some super sh1tty gas, but I never ran into it, I would have been able to tell instantly when I hit boost) in that car. It needed 93, even 89 pinged. (My area dosen't really have 91 so I never tried it)

Folks forget many modern ECU will pull timing when the knock counts go up like when using lower octane fuels. engine will run but your leaving some performance on the table .

Not disagreeing with you, I am expounding upon what you said... chamber shape, compression, material of the heads/block, and engine design make a difference in how much octane an engine needs. So if you are getting inaudible knock that will cause a power loss. If you have to back the timing down, that will cause a power loss as well. If its a crappy combustion chamber design, that will affect timing a lot.

Would love love LOVE to see an LC3 on E85. I almost bought an XLR-V to build with modern technology applied

My 65 and 70 GTOs run on E85, with LOTS of compression in their 455s. The 68 LeMans runs E85 in its 461, and soon the 505 I am building for it. 79 Formula also runs E85, it has a 700hp 467 Pontiac. Around 12:1 compression I get better mileage on E85 than on gasoline, especially 87 octane. It makes a lot more power too. The 70 has been on E85 and home made E100 since 2007. 65 since 2018, 79 since 2010, 68 since 2014. The 79 has a fuel cell in it, the rest have stock tanks. Zero problems with it in all that time. Carbs and EFI... no problem I dont even bother building pump gas engines anymore.

In Australia.. our cheapest fuel is $1.85/L.. e10 is $1.83/L BUT e85 is $2.40/L. It's crazy

@@steveshortt90 Considering you probably have it imported rather than made in country, that would make sense. Also if the government wants to keep you dependent, they wont allow you to make your own.

Ethanol with a flex fuel system looks like a win/win situation. Cooler /cleaner to run ( with a decat car less smells ).

Correct. Over about 15psi boost, and with decent advance, e85 is a must.

@@dimmacommunication - But reduces MPG about 25%...

Higher octane pump gas is just deadened 87 octane so it won't ignite too soon in a higher compression ratio engine... The higher priced race gases, of course, have higher power additives, as well...

@@BuzzLOLOL Yeah I know...

Odd? I was stationed at a Naval Air Station too..........everything ran on JP-4 or JP-5, basically diesel........nobody was mixing squat.

Hope they weren't EFI engines, or they got really good at changing O2 sensors...

@Goblin Slayer Doesn't help. Watch the video.

@Goblin Slayer Yeah. Watch the video.

don't feel silly, you're definitely not alone. I knew a guy who did the same and swore by it for gains in his Honda

@@WhuDhat yeah... H.old O.n N.ot D.one A.ccelerating

Well the more work and effort you put into something, the harder it becomes to admit that it doesn't have an effect. Don't blame yourself, it's human nature. Guess why people have such "amazing" results in non-measured hobbies such as audio - when you're opening up an expensive piece of equipment and start replacing components in there, which you researched for weeks, especially if you ended up getting rare cold war russian army space mission capacitors sourced from an ebay auction only accessible from Kazakhstan instead of some off-the-shelf stuff - then chances are, you're by then tricking yourself into thinking all that effort must have a large result.

I did the same in my 4.3 vortec headed blazer with no noticeable difference so that was my experience to

“Economy” is actually a miles per $ equation. E85 often falls somewhere between 87 and 89 in miles per $ by the time you take advantage of its benefits in the calibration. Yes, it loses mpg, but it’s also more inexpensive and the knock resistance/flame speed/air charge cooling benefits can often offset a bit of the loss in energy density, so the net increase in consumption can be as low as maybe 20% instead of 30% based strictly on energy content. A lot of calibrations have to run richer, or enrich the mixture sooner under high power to control knock and to control catalyst temperature under the lower ignition timing advance that low octane may require. It’s all the little things that can add up.

10.7/1 compression wouldn't be considered low compression.

@@ohhthepatpat It is for a "built N/A" engine.

@@ohhthepatpat Depending on the piston crown shape, it is

Aluminum heads. fast burn chambers, and computer/knock sensor allowing 87 octane... but prolly pulling some timing out at lower RPMs... reason 87 was down a couple lb.-ft. in torque...

Got a ls3 in a Silverado and it likes 93 in the south Alabama summer heat. 110+ IAT/Ambient it knocks pretty easy on low rpm high load with 93. On 87 an easy 5-10° needed to be removed below 3500 above 37kpa and about 5° taken out above 3500. L9h Headers, ORYpipe, stock exhaust, 87mm TB port radiused, MIT tube and a modified factory airbox with ram air from the grille and a debaffle. It will run find on 87 but you definitely can till it isn't as giddy low to mid rpm. When it's rainy and you kick it to see if it'll breakem loose the 87 just isn't as fun. In the winter here 60-80Fish 87 is more viable. Also at 100F+ the 87 idled better below 620rpm, the 93 at 550rpm would load up and miss even at 20:1 AFR. The same engine in a Corvette mostly wouldn't need the 93, but the truck gets driven pretty dang hard no matter how hot it is. The extra $15 is worth it for towing or for fun.

While I appreciate the idea, I'm in western PA, so I feel ya, but what they showed with leaded fuel would replicate the Cam2 stuff for the same reasons... If you're not detonating now, 'better' fuel isn't going to do anything for you, at least in an NA engine. If you're boosted, and you can adjust it easily. Then yes, you'd see something.

So-called "CAM2" doesn't exist anymore. I'm almost positive the formula for CAM2 was acquired and re-branded by Sunoco as Sunoco Standard, which is one of the fuels tested in the video.

indeed, the only BIG difference between the octane's is the 'knock' resistance.

BOOM!!! Is the answer your seeking.

Octane rated differently back then... also rated differently now in Europe...

I think you're in the wrong place for emissions testing. Ethanol does nothing for the environment. It does boost octane.

Nope it’s just better knock resistance

generally it only allows more boost or ignition timing WHEN running into a knock scenario. absolutely

Well if you're using any charged engine, then it might well be. On an N/A engine, not so much.

@@decnet100 Only because running a blower/turbo *increases cylinder pressure*, which is just like running a high compression ratio - in fact more so. Still, it's wrong to say that running higher octane "gives" you more power. What's going on in those cases, is because of the increased cylinder pressure the engine "NEEDS" more octane to stay out of detonation. The increased power comes from the fact the engine is having more air/oxygen crammed into it.

@@BearGFR 100% agreed, I didn't even think of it like that, as in the octane being the actual power. But as you mention it, I can totally see that this is probably a common misconception. :) My perspective is a bit influenced by another interest of mine, WWII engine development - where octane could in many cases actually be directly equated with power, as the engine could then very easily use higher boost (as simple as the pilot pushing the boost lever further forward), therefore the supply of high octane fuel was very important in winning the air war. Highly recommended vid from that perspective: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NJP7iouMwsE.html

E85 is always cheaper at Casey's as well.

Yeah I'd like to see a throw down with UTG too.

Still rather watch UTG.

Not much. My 6.2 silverado tuned for 91 gets about .8 better mpg than tuned for 87. So while I do get better mileage on 91, the dollars per mile is worse. With e85 the fuel mileage is terrible. E85 is cheaper than 87, but not cheap enough to make up the difference in low mpg. So again, the dollars per mile is worse. The only way to increase mpg is with compression. You have to run the max compression that the fuel can handle or you are not utilizing the fuel. Hope that helps.

E85 l96, 7800lb truck. I get 14mpg with 87 or 91, and 10mpg with e85. I do use 91 for towing simply because I'll be under a heavy load with high heat creating the biggest chance of detonation. Elevation is 3000'-9000'.

Pardon my ignorance, what would a factory stock 396 been used in? I assume this is something designed to run on 91+ right?

@@RedfishCarolina A restoration of a 100% factory original Chevy that was equipped with that engine. Millions of Chevy’s from 1965 to 1970 were equipped with some version of a 396 cubic inch big block. Most were required to run on 97 octane or greater.

Hmm not sure how much power you would get running diesel in a high compression gas engine 🤣

@@josephmiller9434 Since diesel has an octane rating of anywhere from 25 to 40, I’d say it would run horrible to not at all. Anyone who’s ever somehow managed to get the nozzle to fit and actually pumped diesel in their tank will know that it doesn’t work very well. 😆

These are not stock engines from manufacturers. Each built engine requires something different. Always use the recommend fuel that the manufacturer suggest since there is literally no reason not to. Unless you think your getting more "power" by running a higher octane which your not.

which they stated

Did you even watch the whole video?

I wonder if they used cast iron heads if the numbers would be different

A tuned gen 3 using E85 will scream.

Only downside to coyote is cost compared to ls based.

@@plark7323 a lot of Coyote guys go with a Gen 3 truck block, Gen 2 heads and Gen 1 crank. If you do that you’re only spending about $3500

Also under boost applications, super or turbo charged, octane is really important My 2018 VW golf shaved 0.5s off it's 1/4 mile time just going from 87 to 93 octane, no tune, completely stock car

More perfect burning, plus more of it @ 9-1 compared to 14-1 fuel/air. Additionally with that extra octane giving ample room before pre-detonation, you could also add BOOST!

They merged two tests together.

What video are you talking about? They never ran Methanol and no motor made 700 hp. You zrussian guys are getting beat bad.

2 different episodes...i thought i was going looney

@@nonyabusinesss3025 The engine went from a LS to a BBC for the last test.

I drive 30 miles away to buy my E free gasoline. Farm country.

No difference

@@corvetteZ3r Ethanol has about 1/2 the BTU's of gasoline. 10% ethanol will yield @5% less hp and fuel economy. It also vaporizes at much lower temps, vapor lock or running lean is very common with ethanol. And it turns out ethanol is a contributor to smog formation. The Sierra Club is now against it's use.

@@ddd228 Me too. I bought a 100 gal tank for my pickup.

Pretty sure they did the Meth test on the same block... they had to change the carb because Meth requires much higher throughput (double the flow, compared to petrol)

@@logicalChimp I don’t think they did. If you compare the numbers from the LS graph to the one of the different engine, the data points are all different as well. The engine they did the methanol run on looks to be a big block of some sort (the valve covers are much taller than an LS). Even if it is the same engine, which it isn’t, now they’re comparing carburetor vs port as well and not keeping variables as limited as possible. This should’ve been two separate videos, e85 vs gasoline on an LS, and then one for whatever engine they used for that methanol pull.

Again? The internet is filled with videos like that....

How could it? The air/fuel ratio is determined by injector pulse width and fuel system pressure.

Exhaust scavenging changes the ratio, as a result of the length, diameter, ect. But the amount varies with each engine.

All that determines is the amount of fuel injected...if you scavenge less you will be rich,if you scavenge more you will be lean.

@@drakrazerclaw5146 Scavenging does not do what you think it does.

@@SophiaAphrodite Oh...I only spent 30K plus learning everything about building race engines...but please educate me...

Perfect conditions vs. real world, right? They noted in the video, but good luck running lower octanes in a street car for long periods of time at the track, drag racing or road course or wherever.

29 is low, in 1970's engines needed 38 - 40 degrees to make any power...

@@BuzzLOLOL I'm aware but 29 is not low for LS engines.

Also has computer/knock sensor...

@@BuzzLOLOL Can't use a knock sensor on the dyno because vibrations from the solid-mounted engine confuse the sensors.

@@johnclary729 - So they just let the engine be destroyed?

@@BuzzLOLOL No, they start with a low amount of advance, then creep up on it until the engine stops making more power, which happens well before knock.

ethanol mix is less energy dense and likes to collect water

@@mrmedium7984 ...and makes more power.

Well, it's been a year since I made this comment. My comment still stands. Methanol is a great replacement for gasoline. It's a simpler molecule so it burns better. If you're using a bunch of boost, then letting the engine sit for 3 months, that's your fault. For a hot-rod that gets driven periodically throughout the week and has a fuel system designed for simple maintenance, Methanol has a lot to offer. Plus, it has no particulate emissions. The methanol molecules are simple, so they burn better. I'm all for it.

Because you get better intake temperature and can run a lot more timing. Even leaner if you want too since E85 is about 105 octane.