DON'T Waste Your Money On New Keycaps... YET. 

Howdy Hey! I know my mic sucks in this vid, rumor has it wearing a puffy jacket with a lapel mic is a bad idea.... If you like the surprise at the end of the vid, check out my music and get a 3 month apple music trial for free here! distrokid.com/hyperfollow/kadeli/wanted-more

As a n00b to the keyboard game, I have to say the group buy thing is a massive barrier and gatekeeping thing to getting into this hobby, even more so than cost (although... Geeeez, cost). But I enjoy the videos Hipyo, you and Switch and Click are a really easy and fun watch.

I don't do group buys, I'd rather get a cheaper set than wait around a year+ for a set that might not meet my expectations when it finally arrives. I think pre orders for a cool set is fine if it's a reasonable time frame.

Groupbuys are also the main reason why "clones" exists.

All this doesnt even bring up two other very important poins: -The huge leadtimes and seeing a great set that just isnt available anywhere is gonna lead people to clones which is bad. -Plus the in stock model would be way better for the designers themselves. Something being available to buy whenever is gonna lead to more sales than a one time only thing. If i could buy a GMK set for 100+ dollars (not american, that is a significant amount of money in my country's currency) and knew it would be there to buy a few months down the line, i could save up to eventually buy it. With group buys that's not possible because from the perspective of people that aren't american or from an EU country with very high salaries, group buys are ridiculous from the point of assuming that people just have that kind of money lying around. The second hand market is just absolutely insane and out of the question here. Oh, and the clones are available for $30 and they ship to you within a few weeks? Wait, the clones are also PBT which is a more durable plastic and less prone to shining? Well, i wonder what most of the not hardcore enthusiasts are gonna choose... Group buys are the reason clones are a thing. Group buys are the reason there is a whole industry dedicated to stealing designs. This hobby has, for better or for worse, outgrown group buys and clinging to it is only gonna drag the whole hobby down with it. And not to mention the absolutely insane amounts of gatekeeping around in this hobby...

As a real outsider to the keyboard hobby, I find it odd that they're named "group buys" - seems like an interesting way of marketing to manipulate your thinking They're preorders. I've worked on the custom apparel world and this is just a pre-order. You take preorders for a shirt. Order the screens and blank garments, and order the amount that was pre-order plus a little extra for spoilage. I honestly think the term group buys is manipulation to justify a poor pre-order experience.

I also dislike Group buys but I LOVE the Hipyo version of the Glarses transition sound effect.

This video was casual but had a great quality to it. This is by far my favorite style you’ve done so far. Like I said casual but the effort is great. Keep it up ( loved the colour animations btw (in the music part))

The thumbnail is already a reason to upvote. GMK leadtimes is just insane now

As someone who's just getting into the hobby but wants to expand in it as much as possible, Groupbuys look awful to me, I get the appeal.. but I can't see that I'd ever want to wait for such a long time for anything.. If I buy something, it's generally because I want it when I buy it..

I just started to build my own keyboard, and really loved how GMK dracula looks and actually wouldn't mind spending the money for it, only to find out I can't actually buy it. I do wish other vendors take Drop's approach of having popular sets available instead of going the GB approach

gotta love the dollar store Glarses transition :D I'm pretty sure that's in some soundpack you can buy, but at this point it basically belongs to Glarses

Man you can tell how much effort and creativity he puts into these videos.

4:20 - fun story. Im in an australian keyboard group and a lot of people got their GMK Pono. They hated it. This lead to DailyClack (Australian store) having it as "in-stock extras". Right now the base kit sold out but at the time, jeez... people are just selling their kits in either retail or lower price due to them not liking the design anymore.

I'm a product manager by trade, I think I know one thing or two about marketing and S/I management. unfortunately I have to disagree on the in-stock topic: While the idea of getting rid of group buy is ecstatic, but it's also utopian. Keycaps set will not get cheaper just because there are more instock, because it won't be any more instock in the first place when: 1. vendors need to stock up inventory with their own cash, they will be much more cautious with the quantity, this leads to quicker sell out and we are back to square 1 2. new keycaps will come out in even slower pace, because the production line is occupied by producing "in-stock"/older keycaps to keep up with the demand. the price of a high quality product will not drop as long as the demand is higher than supply - Marketing 101 I can go on and on, but I also remembered this is the comment section of youtube, so what am I even doing.. ;) The diss song is dope tho edit: remember, no GMK groupbuys.

It’s funny, i was just talking about this with friends about group buys. A lot of my friends don’t want to wait on keycaps or anything else forever because it just makes them wonder if they will ever get what they bought. As for me. I am still waiting on my GMK striker 2 set that i bought last year around this time. I guess the TLDR is that, if you are willing to wait that long then go for it. For me, this is probably my first and last GB for a set of keycaps.

THANK YOU. I've been making this argument in one form or another over the past year or so, mostly to deaf ears or gatekeeping. The problem isn't just the time it takes. The economics of groupbuys is extremely anti-consumer precisely because the businesses involved are essentially passing the risk to consumers while also artificially creating scarcity, which drives up prices. In-stock products will lower prices because it increases supply relative to demand, and also allows for economies of scale. A company like GMK has all the necessary infrastructure and equipment to mass produce their keycaps and drive prices down, but won't because they and vendors feel no pressure when a passionate minority of big whale spenders are willing to shell out disporportionate prices to have their way in the hobby. This creates the vicious cycle and it ultimately serves to exclude the majority of the community from access to a lot of products, while also turning off a lot of potential newcomers to the hobby.

This is the best thing ever. I’m in a GB for 80082. It’s to go with my Ginkgo65, luckily it seemed to be a fairly short GB, but I’m glad to see more alternatives popping up.

He's only gone and said it. Great points man

I think group buys have a place in the hobby, SO LONG AS we have plenty of in stock keebs and keycaps so that people who are interested in the hobby can jump in before they lose interest 😂

Love these kinda Glarses sound effects between the scenes. Keep it up!

Wait times was one of the main reasons I pretty much quit the hobby around 2 or 3 years ago, and it not only applied to caps but cases too. Now and then when I have a look at what's currently going on I'm baffled at not only how long it still takes some GBs to come to fruition but how in some cases it's gotten worse!

This is literally the best video I’ve ever seen!! The skit and music video are awesome! And you still a made really good informational video! That’s all to say thanks so much for the awesome content :)

Truly terrific video, one of the best articulated commentaries I've seen and heard that focuses on fundamental problems with the status quo in the custom keyboards business model. Oh, and the song was epic.

Completely agree - There has to be a better method to get keycaps out there. I'm on two group buys that were supposed to ship last year and I'm still waiting on them. To be clear, these group buy delays were not the vendor or designer's fault, just the nature of manufacturing right now. In the time that I've been waiting for these two group buys, I've bought numerous keycap sets from Novelkeys, Kinetic Labs, and Cannon Keys. I deeply appreciate that there are many more in stock options available, and the fact that many of them are sold out consistently shows there's a demand for those in-stock options. Heck, I missed out on Noel and Fuji from Cannon keys, and the moment they come back in stock I'm buying some. It also helps that these in stock sets are cheaper than getting in on GMK group buys, extras, or aftermarket. 60-90 dollars is expensive, but MUCH easier to swallow than 125-300ish dollars for a keyset.

For me the whole reason to get into group buys is ISO compatibility. And no, I am not talking about ISO-UK. The problem is that there are very few keycap sets that have ISO-NorDeUk compatibility in-stock (sometimes with horrible kittings) and I don't wanna talk about other ISOs, I am waiting for one GB with ISO LatAm compatibility which is extremely rare and I haven't found any keycap in stock with that compatibility.

I'm new to diy keyboards/custom/building your own from parts; a big part of what stopped me from attempting to get into it was when I tried looking for a nice keycap set I liked and saw that every one I liked had a lead time of 6months +. Due to this I was put off for a very long time, probably 5 + years. Thankfully I eventually sat down and did my research and finally got into the hobby.

Cant wait! it’s always good when Hipyo uploads

Have to agree with the overall sentiment, waiting so long for something you might not love when it arrives is pretty killer. For some people, that wait is perfectly acceptable, for others it isn't and I'd like to see things improve for those who don't want to wait potentially 2 freaking YEARS for plastic. Great vid as always, keep it up Hipyo!

I got into keyboards because your videos kept showing up into my feed, so I got into it pretty recently and have bought a keyboard and 2 different sets of keycaps from ebay and e-commerce this month. I had a look at these 'group buys' while chatting with keyboard enthusiasts on random unrelated discord servers and was shocked to hear they waited almost a year for a set of keycaps and it's hard to justify why I should go for these group buys myself. If you're into scarcity and authenticity which is probably part of the hobby, I guess the long wait times and high prices are worth it. And just like you said, by the time I got the keycaps, I probably no longer want that design. GB feels like a scheme to artificially inflate the price and demand to create the sense of scarcity, so these vendors can rake in a lot of cash with the hype. But one thing that fails to capture a grasp of GB appeal for me is the keycaps itself. I don't think the designs are 'unique' enough for me to go for GB even if I am willing to pay for it, I feel like I can just go look for the next best thing with a reasonable shipping time, or I could dig deeper into questionable clones with designs just as good for cheaper and potentially better manufacturing method. Maybe I'm too new into keyboards and I don't understand the appeal, but if anyone can change my mind on this, maybe I'll get the appeal.

thanks for the frank throwbacks. Don't know if its a staple of your channel, but love when youtubers pay respect to the greats and play off eachother. good stuff

Couldn't agree more. I fell in love with GMK Phosphorous from Hamaji's video and was crushed when I found out they were limited run.

I literally built my first keyboard today and i think groupbuys are really blocking me and others from getting into this hobby

Agreed! The influx of group buys with no regard to mounting lead times and superfluous switch designs made it easy to break off from this hobby and move onto other interests and concerns (while I leisurely wait for my remaining group buys and news of more delays)

I watched the premiere and watched the video again. Thank you for addressing that topic and that song is very very cool (first time commenting a Hipyo vid!)

Love your videos. Never built a mech keyboard, only ever owned the Microsoft Sidewinder X4. But the moment I have the expendable income and the time (i.e.18 yrs from now) I'm in this rabbit hole neck deep

This is completely anecdotal from what I've seen via vendors/reddit/forums but part of the problem I think is GMK as a manufacturer themselves - think about how many keycap sets from these groupbuys they agree to make - obviously this begins a queuing process. Getting the colors right, getting the legends right, actually manufacturing them, shipping them out. Now multiply that for every random keycap set that happens to get through. Then you see the rush jobs people are getting from GMK groupbuys - imagine dropping 200+, waiting 6 months to a year only to get a spacebar that won't even lie flat on your desk. If GMK agreed to do like 12 sets a year (1 for every month) and keep it tight then maybe we wouldn't have to see these nightmare stories of dudes waiting a year+ for what is essentially just multicolored plastic that could very well end up warped.

howdy hey it’s hipyo tech

just stumbled on this gold trying to learn about keycaps before i drop a bunch of moneys on plasticccc will definitely be back again really enjoyed this

This is sooo true. As someone who wants to get in to the hobby, this is what is keeping me from diving in properly. I don't want to wait years for my stuff.

It's hard to imagine wanting something as much as when I paid for it when it shows up if it takes that long. It really kills the fun.

seriously, at this point there shouldnt be groupbuys for bigger companies (well for smaller companies that's "ok"). To me companies that has released big hits shouldn't have groupbuys cause if they have the budget to not do groupbuys

I've been in the hobby since 2016, and I remember when group buys were basically the only way to get customs. This was before gmmk and keychron, and other keyboard & keycap vendors. Now though, with so many options available, vendors that can afford the upfront cost should be able to do proper market analysis and take on the inventory so they can compete in this new market. Basically they need to move on from the old model of group buys, or they get left behind. The burden of risk should be held by the vendor who can afford to recuperate in the event of loss, instead of the consumer. Thanks for the great video Hipyo!

Whats even funnier is the interest check before the crazy wait time LOL - Hands down the best part of this video is the "ooooh yeaaah!" jingle - Love it!

It’s been 1.5 years since I got into GMK Beta, my first Group Buy. Still waiting but this month looks like it’ll be recieved by the warehouse ( I hope)

After my experience with striker r2, modo r2, 8008, amethyst, and more i will safely say i'm done with the gb model. for ~$50 more on in-stock sales to me is definitely worth not waiting 2 years for a keycap set i might not even want when i get it

I'm not really a keyboard enthusiast, but these videos are very entertaining. Also the song straight up slaps my guy, good job.

I'm a boomer and never connected with rap but I can't get your song out of my head!

i know from a post from gmk that they are almost done with an expansion and covid affected them getting plastic. also with domikey coming into play it will add more manufactures able to make more keycaps and i know signature plastics is a small operation in Washington state. i also reached out to kinetic labs and they said they plan on bringing other language support and in stock keycaps to venders here in the eu. i think with time and the hobby growing things will get better and maybe someday a group buy will only be more like a preorder and they will come in a couple months. who knows. get video 👍

Upon getting into the hobby, I was amazed at how ridiculously expensive keycaps are. And it's completely obvious most of that is overhead, it's not costing hundreds of dollars to produce these damn things, an "expensive" set should be no more than like $80. I have other hobbies worth investing more money, I wouldn't wanna cheap out on a car parts, for example, and understand the cost of said parts. Keyboards, on the other hand, are the opposite. I ain't paying $100 for plastic whether I gotta wait for them or not lol

been binging from the start of the channel....i might be almost caught up??? got like 30 something videos left o.o U ADDED TO THE DISSTRACK OMG fantastic as always!

Nothing like a Hipyo video with the best thumbnail I’ve seen in a while to start my morning off right 👌

I stand with you. I've been in the hobby for about a year now and I completely avoided GMK. Waiting one to two years for anything is ludicrous. Tai-Hao and Domekey are high quality enough and they come fairly fast.

The only GMK set I own is Sloth literally because it was in stock from a vendor. Otherwise, I know Akko gets shit for being clone sets, but their Red and Blue Samurai set is like 25% the price of the Drop GMK Red Samurai set with comparable options.

Thanks for shedding light on this debate! Wish vendors would look at this video and take more risk

Love the video, especially the transition vocals!

I wonder if Alfred has got the keycaps yet

I get how group buys are that popular, they feel kinda exclusive, you know like they also make you feel like you are a part of something. This group of people buying expensive keycaps. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything but it indeed keeps on creating a barrier between those who just want to experience what a mechanical keyboard is and the other ones who may feel superior cause keeb gang

The knock-off glarses soundbite is absolutely Sending me 🤣

Good song man, I like how you do different characters in your song. One of my favorite bands WEEN does that a lot. Good job dude

I want to build a mech keyboard. But the group buy aspect is absolutely mind bending, and it's sad for so many people to get priced out. It's wild how some manufacturers are still doing group buys when it would be more feasible for some to scale up manufacturing and offer up more in stock items. If Glorious can give me a purple top plate that would be swell

Weirdly enough i personally love group buys. Unless they get delayed over and over again. But just being able to forget about it and suddenly getting a happy surprise is nice for me

Can we take a moment to appreciate the glarses transitions haha

I 100% agree, especially with the sale aspect. I've bought some banger sets, $80+ sets, for $15 on sale. Love keycap sales.

Do you think Kinetic Labs will address the fact that polycaps Seal is a much lower quality than Whale and Octopus are while remaining the same price as Whale and Octopus? Interesting choice to plug that set.

Drop is a LOT bigger than nk and similar vendors. I buy gmk from drop only these days or in preorder period from vendors where wait time is a lot lower.

I just bought a keychron and had 0 intention of ever modding a keyboard. I even bought the non hot swappable version to save a few bucks... But damn this is satisfying content to watch. Maybe my next keyboard in the future will be a custom!

As someone who has currently been waiting a year and a half for my GMK amethyst I 100% agree with everything said in this video.

Great video! I'd love to see one on Akko and their high quality, in stock, but not always the most "original" keycaps.

Whilst I generally agree that group buys kinda suck and it would be better to have things in stock, I have a couple issues with this video. First off, you're entirely right to say vendors don't want to take the risk buying in stock sets, which is true. It's true, because a lot of the sets we see in groupbuy barely make MOQ without vendors stepping in to front their own money to get sets over the MOQ. Vendors already take the risk funding group buys as is, and if I was a vendor, I really wouldn't want to pay GMK for the manufactoring time (this is important, GMK don't charge by the set, you can't just pay a flat rate for, say, 10,000 base kits, you pay for the time it takes to make those kits, which also pushes back everything that is in production for group buys, funilly enough), to get a set in stock that I didn't know was going to sell well, sure if it's something like BOW, WOB, Olivia, I can understand that, but with many sets there's just no guarantee they're going to sell, and asking vendors to take out loans and take all of these risks, especially with so many sets coming out all the time, is a bit of a weird ask. Secondly on the KineticLabs point, at least with Seal specifically because it's the one I know for sure about, you've said they've taken the risks and paid a lot to bring a set/sets in stock. Seal is an Apollo clone made by the same manu that you can buy from on AliExpress for half the price. That's not that big of a risk. Maybe for the other sets it's different, I'm not sure, but selling pre-existing clone sets for a huge markup isn't a risk. On Drop, notice how the sets Drop have are well known, popular sets. They can take the "risk" because they have a bunch of capital to do so, and they know they're going to sell, a la my first point. On the lowering wait times, GMK are already doing so, and have been taking steps to lowering wait times for the past, what, year? Two years? It takes time to set up the production lines and make up for the lack of silicone for their moulds. Did they take on too many sets over lockdown and throughout 2020 and 2021? Yes, definitely, but they have been fixing it, and we should (hopefully) see GMK wait times starting to go down as they take on fewer sets and work through their backlog with their new lines. Keyreative was purely a manufacturing blunder, they decided to switch from Dye-Sub to Doubleshot without any prep towards actually doing so, which has pushed their sets back years as they get their lines going again. Not a problem with the group buy format, that's specifically on the manu. As for other manu's, I'm not too sure, probably a similar issue with the silicone shortages for moulds for companies like Signature Plastics and so on. There are also multiple new manu's for keycaps making waves who have significantly shorter wait times than the big players, case and point Milkyway, who have a 3-6 month wait time for their sets, so there are new places to go to as a designer wanting to sell a set but not wanting people to have to wait a year. Also, from this video I know that you're talking about keycaps, but when you say "group buys are a problem" that means *all* group buys. That's limited run keyboards, that's limited run switches, that's everything. And I think asking individuals who clearly don't have the money to run in stock keyboards to pony up the cash from thin air to pay for hundreds and hundreds of PCBs, plates, CNC'd Aluminium cases with no guarantee that any of them are going to sell is ridiculous, and there should be some sort of nuance provided when you say "group buys are a problem" because that just doesn't sit well with me. This is all without even considering that pretty much all the big keycap manu's we think of like GMK and SP, don't make most of their money off of the keyboard hobby. In fact they could probably stop making keycaps for us altogether and barely see a dent in their profits. The fact they even give us the time of day is really something that shouldn't be taken for granted. To wrap this up, do I agree that group buys kinda suck? Yeah. I'd love to have more things in stock as it really only benefits the consumer. As it stands though, not everyone is made of money, not everyone can afford to just will things into stock, and we don't *deserve* in stock sets from big players in the game. What you want to try and start a conversation about is good, I just don't think you make a good case for it at all.

Great vid Hipyo! The music vid was kinda lit can’t lie! I agree with you because I live in the UK and it’s even harder to get them here where the market in my opinion is not as large, start shipping stuff in and paying customs fees then a 150 pound set cost you 200-300 it sucks :(

Ok those glarses transitions were… perfect.

7:27 and I think that’s why some vendors still do group buys. They don’t risk having excess inventory. My assumption being the vendors still doing group buys have a specific profit margin in mind that they want to stick to completely, but I can’t say I blame them for that.

I received my first gmk set a couple months ago and was so extremely disappointed. The time and money is not worth it. I’ve had pbt keycaps with just as good quality that also sound better (I know sound is subjective) gmk packaging is also disgusting for that price point. Till something changes I will only buy clones from now on :)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who avoids GMK group buys like the plague. Waiting two years for pieces of injection molded plastics is ridiculous IMO

I just got into this a week ago doing my research before deciding and yeah group buys are in a way to keep the costs high

I love how everyone has done the glarses transition even linus has done it

I absolutely hate this hobby . I just bought my first mech keyboard to replace my broken membrane one, and now all I do is look at keycaps and wish I could buy them. When does the pain end?

Great video, I totally agree. The one thing I can think of as a benefit to GB is that if it takes a year, inflation means by the time they're delivered 2 years later you've kinda gotten a discount. But I'm still not doing it.

My worry with in stock only is that people who want to create their own sets won’t quite have that opportunity. The risk becomes much larger for the vendor and I feel like we might see only large creators get the go ahead from vendors for designs that will guarantee sales.

Group buys are what allow a small group / single person to actually make this kind of product. They don't have the money to put forward to do an in stock buy. Saying a blanket "group buy bad" removes the ability for the hobby to progress and for people to innovate.

if you do want GMK keycaps imo the best way is to just wait until an in stock extras sale happens, as most do

Agreed on the group buys. I haven't participated in a lot of them, mostly just ones that run for shorter and I've still found the experience awful. When my Ikki68 Aurora R1 finally arrived, all of my excitement for it had dissipated. I joined Kuro Shiro R3 last year in August and back then I considered it one of my holy grail sets. Now? I think I'm just going to sell it when I get it. I love my GMK Laser, which I got second-hand for pretty much retail price, and I would love to have more GMK sets but I'm probably never going to join a GMK group buy. We need more in-stock, for sure. Unfortunately, vendors with in-stock sets like Drop, Kinetic Labs, and NovelKeys are still inconvenient or inaccessible to folks like me outside of the USA. Also, this is a great-looking video. Nice shots, backgrounds, graphics, visual effects 👍👍

100% agree with you, especially for vendors to take more risks. Current condition is very unhealthy cause people don't want to wait 2 years for the keycaps in the other hand the after market price is too expensive lol

I really enjoy watching your vids! :)

I fucking love the way you do your videos dude. So entertaining.

Group by is totally reasonable, if you don't wanna wait, don't join. If you joined , don't complain.

There's a keycap creator/shop that is very intent on trying to eliminate group buys, and instead stick with an in-stock model! They're called osume, their keycaps are so gorgeous, they can get sold out but they keep you updated on when sets restock!

Howdey hey hipyo, I never realized how much i need something that i already have before finding your channel. I like your vibe and appreciate the amount of content you have. Im trying to get into the hobby but the group buys are a huge turnoff, its odd in this age of instant gratfication and 2 day prime shipping to have to wait so long for for something that seem as trivial as key caps. The cost is a big enough barrier to deal with without also having to wait for a year or more to get into the hobby. That being said, keep doing gods work.

I missed out on GMK Symbiote and I can't forgive myself ... really they're some of the coolest sets I've seen

HAHAH the glarses transition is amazing!

I learned about keycap groupbuys (and general custom mech kb GBs in general) insane lead time for the very first time from THIS video about a month ago… And here I am again just coming from my 3rd keyboard groupbuy order today… 🤪it’s hitting different.

Omg the OHHH YEAH from Glarses POGGERS

The song at the end went hard as heck! 🔥🔥

Order gmk deskmat from a group buy 6 months ago! Thanks for the hope!!

I just got the samurai set from drop like a week ago. It's on sale now, for anyone interested. It's like $70 for TKL. I put them in a CTRL HP with lubed kailh box creams, durok stabs. It's like butter. I ordered the LOTR elvish set too, only have to wait a month. Drop is the only way I will participate in group buys, and is my go-to for keycaps. I have several MT3 sets from them.

holy shuit, I did not expect this much entertainment value from a keyboards channel

Completely agree with your points. I understand that keyboards are a pretty niche markets but there are a lot of niche markets in the world. The whole Group Buy thing never really made much sense to me unless you're really trying to make limited edition stuff (like some keyboards). Imagine if you were to open a shoe store, then you ask people to pay for the shoes up front and you will have it for them in 1 year... Who would even buy anything?? That's just not the way to run a business... I'm really happy to see vendors starting to have more in-stock keycaps.

Love this video. The group buy is the most ridiculous buying experience.

I love how you parodied the transition sound that Glarses uses in his videos 🤭