Downfall-Why Japan Surrendered with very special guest Richard Frank-Episode 225 

I read Mr. Frank's "Downfall" just recently. I highly recommend it. One key element in the Allies' decision making regarding the use of the bombs (which wasn't mentioned in this episode) was the very serious possibility that Japan might never formally surrender at all, but simply continue fighting indefinitely. This might have left over a million Japanese soldiers around the Pacific basin actively engaged in combat to the death. It's a nightmare scenario and one that had a very real potential to happen. The nuclear attacks short-circuited that possibility. (This scenario was also one reason that Tokyo was not on the nuclear target list.)

To Captain Bill Toti, I am adopted from South Korea. I have studied WWII since the early 70's. I have a small library of books on the subject. Sometime in the later 70's I came to the conclusion dropping the bombs was the best way to end the war.

My father served with the First Marine division at Peleliu and Okinawa. He was training on Okinawa for the invasion of Japan, when one rainy night while watching a movie outdoors, his unit got word the war was over. Everyone went nuts with joy and relief. My father was 19 years old. I cannot wrap my head around how young he was, what he went through, and only imagine what he thought about being given a new lease on life.

Well done, Seth. You have done well with this Podcast. The fact that you were able to land Capt. Bill as cohost is impressive enough, but your ability to land high caliber guests is outstanding.

Rich Frank is The Man when it comes to the Asia Pacific War. He is also a really good guy. Superb episode as always.

Richard Frank's "Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle" is exceptional history and I could not put it down. Thanks for including him on this episode.

Richard Frank. What a gem. I read Downfall several years ago, wonderful book.

Gentlemen, This show was OUTSTANDING. Thank you.

A monumental, perhaps definitive, treatment of the subject. This channel never fails to impress, especially in its commitment to giving attention to detailed evidence.

Best episode yet. Helped inform my understanding of the ending of th pacific war. This is the first time I have heard japanese leaders were concerned about civil unrest.

Great guest and terrific conversation today. 1) By early '45 Japan was down to fewer than 1900 calories per day per person. Japanese agriculture was labour and fertiliser intensive - so much so that when Japan implemented short-grain rice cultivation on Java w/o considering the labour requirements production decreased by 35%, throwing the East Indies into a food crisis. Synthetic fertiliser was gone. The traditional fertiliser of fish cake (made from fish byproducts) and oil cake (from soy) was disappearing because Japan's fishing fleet was being wiped out (an estimated 4000 fishing vessels lost, of which 400 were were pressed to be 'human radars' sailing near the American lines to report on naval movements) and Manchuria, the principle supplier of soy, was being cut off. Even the inland sea, which had been heavily fished, was very dangerous because of the extensive mining. To conserve fuel for the military, many ofJapan's remaining fishing vessels were being converted to wind power. Food shortages in '43 and '44 had the gov't order the closure of restaurants, bakeries, etc for civilians. Their iron and steel equipment was seized to the scrapped for making more steel. 2) Okinawa was also important in that it was the first occurrence of mass surrender by the military. About 8000 surrendered - yes, very different from the mass surrender by everyone else, but in the Japanese context it broke with the dozens who surrendered. Not civilians. Not Korean labourers. Japanese soldiers. In Manchuria the Kwangtung Army was rolled over by the Soviets. Yes, by '45 they were a second-rate force having been depleted to send experienced soldiers to the islands, but they still supposedly possessed the indomitable Japanese will. The IJA also promised Hirohito that all defensive fortifications on Kyushu would be finished by July. They weren't. Hirohito put the IJA on blast. The gist was 'You've collapsed in Manchuria and failed to prepare for the defence of the homeland. I no longer believe what you're telling me and I'm not going to sacrifice the people needlessly.' 3) Both the IJA and IJN, especially the hotheads, continually blamed others. This goes back to the Russo-Japanese War when they blamed Roosevelt for Japan not getting all the gains from Russia they thought Japan deserved. The IJA was so spent that they were no longer able to prosecute the land war in Manchuria. If Tsar Nicholas II had obtained the financing from France he intended to deploy the bulk of the Russian army east. They blamed the US and UK for the Washington Treaty even though Japan couldn't afford the 8:8 navy the IJN wanted to build - the US had the wealth to build a massive fleet that would have given it a greater ratio than the 5:3 agreed to. They blamed the UK and US for their inability to defeat China in '37 and turning it into a quagmire. And they blamed the US and UK for the Dutch refusing to bend to their oil and payment demands in '40. 'How else could they resist?' 4) Re the willingness to starve civilians, it's harder to say definitely. When the chips were down IJA officers often violated the cardinal rule of 'never take from the soldiers' by hoarding food for themselves. On Mindanao the IJA murdered starving Japanese civilians who snuck away to search for food. Historically, during the _Sengoku Jidai_ (Warring States Era) peasants, monks, and minor samurai who rebelled against Oda Nobunaga were massacred by the thousands, for example the Mount Hiei massacre. I suspect the IJA would have deemed the civilians' effort to fight the Allies insufficiently valorous and cut them off from food.

Just amazing. Such a great episode. Richard Frank's conversational knowledge of this period and all of the details. Such a wealth. Thank you so much for sharing this. As an aside, I find it very amusing watching on RU-vid to see Cpt Todi seemingly sitting at attention while Mr Frank is speaking. Thanks again!!

Splendid program. Thanks! I'm a minister in the Reformed Presbyterian Church. We had missions in south China (Guangdong and Guangxi) 1895-1950; and in Manchuria (1931-1940). In the RPC, there was much knowledge of and horror of Japanese depredation. Our missionaries went from south China to Kobe, Japan, in 1950, but there was emotional hesitation about going to those who had been so cruel to the Chinese people and culture, whom they loved. CAPT Toti, your article in _World_ was splendid. Your writing was clear and your conclusions well supported. Thanks!

The father of an old girlfriend was with Australian commandos in ww2. He related to me that they were detailed to do an operation in Malaysia that they all expected to die. The op was cancelled when Hiroshima happened. They were profoundly grateful.

Love the episode as always. My fathers ship was slated to take part in the invasion of Kyushu and he only had so much luck left having been at Iwo and Okinawa. His ship was at Pearl Harbor the day war ended so instead of an invasion he got to go to Shanghai for the Japanese surrender. He always talked about that more than anything else about the war.

Thank you for the most detailed and comprehensive presentation on this controversial subject that i witnessed in more than 40 years of interest

This topic is critical for anyone who wants a clear view of the Pacific War. Most people know only cliches. You guys get great guests!

Outstanding. So glad you had Richard Frank on. I've been recommending his Guadalcanal to anyone who would listen for years, and I'm right now reading Tower of Skulls. This was a great episode.

I listened to this episode on the podcast. I had a chuckle over CAPT Toti’s story about a math professor at Naval Post Graduate School. I am a retired Navy SWO and attended NPGS 82-83. We had a math professor, Dr. Weir who was an excellent teacher, but we could get him off the subject by somehow bringing up two items; the California public school system and nuclear weapons (he was not a fan of either). After several times where he laid out in detail his opinion on nuclear weapons one student asked why he taught at NPGS where nearly all the students were active duty military officers. His answer was great. He said “I like living in Monterey, the students take their studies seriously,” then he paused for several seconds, looked everyone in the room in the eye and said “and because one day one of YOU may have your finger on THE trigger…and you will think of me before you push it!”

Both of my parents were born in 1940 and they came from two radically different backgrounds. My father's family were dairy farmers and maple syrup harvesting New Englanders from Vermont living about 30 minutes south of the Quebec border. My mother's family was from west Texas, and they lived on top of the eastern edge of the Permian basin and were farmers, ranchers, and oil men. Everyone alive in 1945 whose opinions I had heard on the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki all said that they were just relieved that the war was over. Their emotions on the Pacific War were visceral because of the shock of Pearl Harbor and the loss of the Philippines, plus the horrific cost of the Island-Hopping campaign. The moral question was moot to these people because of their relatives and mine serving in the Pacific at the time.

Wow. So impressed with Richard Frank in person. Before my trip to Guadalcanal in 2017 (75th), I read and outlined his definitive work on Guadalcanal.

I just recently bought a copy of Richard Frank's "Guadalcanal' and am amazed. I was a bit hesitant about spending fifty bucks on a 30-year old book on a subject that I thought I knew something about, but Seth recommended the book a couple of shows ago and I had read Frank's 'Tower of Skulls' and found it very informative and well written (and am impatiently awaiting the next book in the trilogy). Anyway, anyone who thinks they know something about the land battles on Guadalcanal, especially the Japanese intentions and actions, and hasn't read Frank's book should. I think Frank's lucid and balanced presentation on the end of WWII in this podcast is all the recommendation you need for his books.

Everybody of all ages needs to listen to this episode. They need to understand all the facts. Another wonderful show, thank you. I hope all your fans support your work.

Thank you for this illuminating and informative presentation. It certainly has expanded my views. It also emphasizes the limits of bite sized videos. One thing that should be emphasized is the way ideology shapes various narratives.

Agree, this was a masterful discussion. I get very tired about the re-writing of history that has been going on re Atomic Bombs, particularly the way far too many look back from their comfortable chairs in complete ignorance of the situation, prevailing conditions, or years of bloody history that had to be brought to an end, and what if any other options there were to do that. As stated at the end, we need to be reflective, and ensure this never happens again.

If you want to see a tiny fraction of some of the documents Mr Frank has highly likely reviewed in his work, check out some of the most recent episodes of WWII US Bombers. WWII US Bombers' videos are based on reviewing original documents from the archives. He puts images up of individual pages highlighting the main points. It does include post war analysis and Mr Frank's comments about post war analysis of casualty figures are important to keep in mind, but nevertheless it robustly supports Mr Frank's conversation here.

This is the first time I’ve heard the statistics of Asian casualties which convinced me that the bomb was the lesser, if horrific, evil. As my uncle was in the Pacific War, I’m grateful he came home. American students should be educated on these facts and the Japanese youth even more so.

I missed this episode when it first aired and just finished it today, what an phenomenal episode and I'd argue this may be one of rhe most important episodes that y'all will do. The sheer loss of life happening in Asia under Japanese rule at the time was somewhat known to me but hearing the numbers was something else. As you all said during the episode it was the best worst choice, every other option would have led to an order of magnitude more deaths. Anytime I see a debate around the dropping of the bombs I'm going to share this episode. As always, keep up the good work gentlemen.

McNamara was an intelligence officer under LeMay in 1945. He said there were something like 20 bridges that if destroyed, would starve a great part of the Japanese population. Because it was considered too much, that didnt happen. It was one of those options other than invasion of Japan. Another great show guys!

There is not one video in this series that I would not recommend to anyone who has an interest in WWII generally, and the Pacific Campaign in particular. But this episode is so dense in information, facts, and informed opinion that it stands out as exceptional amongst a family exceptionals. I like to think that I know a lot about this subject but this episode has both confirmed and challenged much of what I thought I knew. All I can say is bravo gentlemen, well done, and thank you for sharing and disseminating this information, it is so important that we know how our forefathers sacrificed for what we now enjoy and honor their service.

Thanks guys, this was amazingly informative. Will try and share this far and as wide as I can and it will definitely become something I reference when discussing or debating the topic.

I was born in 1951 and raised in Korea. I have always believed the atomic bombings were necessary. This presentation was excellent at providing a lot of history to confirm that judgment. Thank you.

Shame on me, I did not know Richard Frank before. But now I do and I have to rapidly make some free space on bookshelf for new books I see. Another excellent episode with new fantastic guest. Thank you all, guys.

The bar has been raised once again! Amazing conversation gentleman! I truly hope that a measurable segment of your viewers are under 40.

The debate over dropping the Bomb will probably never end. I'm not an historian, but I've researched it enough over the years to give an informed opinion. There was zero indication "at the time" (one must always be cognizant of conditions then, and NOT through today's prism) that Japanese leaders would have surrendered merely from a blockade. Not only would that have condemned tens of millions to starvation (many were already starving), but there is no evidence that even after weeks, months or even years, Japan would have surrendered. Sooner or later we would have had to "occupy" the country, and the fanaticism of a culture nurtured on unquestioned hatred for the enemy and a willingness to commit suicide for an emperor the people regarded as a living God would have just delayed mass slaughter an invasion would have produced. Also, do you think the American public would have stood by and allowed our gov to "wait" for surrender when we had the means to end the war sooner (the Bomb)? If it came out later that Truman didn't use it when he had the chance the public outcry would have been so ferocious he may have been hanged from the nearest tree...lol. We have to take into account the longer the war lasted, the more Soviet Union would have injected their influence and expanded their sphere of control in the region (Stalin had plans to land troops on Hokkaido and carve out a Soviet zone of his own. Just imagine how "that" would have complicated the post-war world??), thus making the Cold War even more dangerous. Using the bomb had a very practical (not theoretical) demonstration to the world, whose monstrous effects (radiation was not as well known as it was after) were assiduously documented. One could argue it might be a good reason why it has never been used since. If it was never used in the first place, maybe the temptation to use it all these decades later might have been too great. And with the hydrogen bomb, the effects would be 100-fold greater than those used in WW2. Finally, the atomic bombs themselves didn't end the war, but they were a fundamental contributor. The "cumulative" effect of the firebombing campaign, mass starvation from the blockade up to that time, Soviet intervention, "and" the atomic bombs were critical in finally forcing the emperor to intercede. No, this revisionist history, Monday morning quarterbacking (to use a football metaphor, sorry) is rather ridiculous and completely illusory. The Bomb was going to be used. If we had a working bomb, it would have been dropped. Germans should be thankful that we didn't develop it sooner. It may have been dropped first on Berlin instead of Japan.

I had hundreds of military books before I lost my storage in 2000. It is almost impossible to keep up with all the history books out there and especially ones on WW 2. I had never heard of Richard Frank before this video. No shame in that. I have been slowly rebuilding my collection and now have about 300 books, most on WW 2 as members of my family were in the US Army, the German armed forces and the IJN so the war fascinates me. I subscribed.

Wow! I would recommend that this be watched more than once, like I did. I will have to get a hold on this historian's books. This is still a great channel/series.

Thank you everyone for such a good discussion on this wide but well directed topic. This is the second time I have listened. to it. I had to let it simmer so that on the second experience, I could more completely understand and savor the subject that has interested me since seventh grade (approximately) to now. I have not looked at the comments Yet. though I'll bet there are many really good ones. I wanted to remain free of bias until I could formulate my thoughts. I am in awe of you two and your guest hosts. I have questions in the history of the development of the atomic weapons first developed during WWII. First: When did they first realize separating out the Uranium 235 from Uranium 238 was too slow and yielded such Meager result. It almost had to be when the switched Oakridge on! Second who and when did they figure out that Plutonium 235 in a gun mechanism would only melt or burn. It almost had to be at the time the Uranium separator was turned on. I have seen about the development of the lens explosive was dreamed up. They were not sure it would work, so they had to make a test. That was handy so they could run the 1 k-ton of TNT calibration test. That was necessary to be able to Analyse blast effects on target using scale-up factors. Now for a little insight into the development of the super bombers. There was a pair. One they used and one was produced in only a few basically demonstrator examples. These were respectfully The B 29 and The B 32 Dominator. I think they started as a hedge against Britain being forced out of the war. So they would take-off from over here to go over and bomb Berlin. Britain was not Knocked out of the war, freeing the use of the B 29 on Japan from farther away than Japan Thought possible. So I think Germany was the first posited target. All this gets lost in how the war ultimately played out. I never worked out the ranges to locate where an actual base would have been situated. A little side note on how seriously American civilians took the war, I think it was Paleontologist Barnum Brown said they sold the Type Specimen to The Carnegie Museum to avoid a "second extinction of T-Rex!

Fantastic episode! Downfall and Guadalcanal by Richard Frank are definitive accounts. Still have Tower of Skills on my to read list.

Good morning men.I remember saying 4 months ago that when you get to the end of the war and the use of atomic weapons it would be interesting to see you guys talk about the subject.Well,it's here.Thank you guys for all you do.

And with that one last click I'm done I have watched all the episodes. Seth, Capt. Toti, a simple thank you feels so inadequate . But it all I got. Thank You Seth and Capt. Toti.

I already am out of time to read all of the great material this podcast and the others on my list have put in front of me, but I shall never, never, never,never give up, As long as I have breath, eyesight, and a brain. Thanks.

Outstanding! Y'all knocked this one out of the ballpark. I hope Richard Frank can join in again. Sadly, the USA has done many shameful things in world affairs but the use of the atomic bombs on Japan is not in that number. Had Operation Olympic failed I shudder to think how the USA would have reacted. I'm certain giving Japan better terms would not be one of them.

Regarding the saving of life by using the A Bombs, in writing her book "Unbroken", author Laura Hillenbrand mentioned if Japan was invaded, all POWs were to be executed. It was estimated there were 250,000 POWs in Japan.

I taught in Japan for a year (in Hiroshima, no less) and the students are taught virtually nothing about the war.

One and a half hours of history in its finest form. I consider myself to be well informed on this subject but I learned so much from Richard Frank. To me the best episode yet!

Outstanding presentation, guys. Richard Frank was a great addition to your project. Thanks, so much, for this.

Brilliant histography, wish I'd seen it on the 78th anniversary - a brief copy and paste and advice to "watch this" would have saved much banging on a keyboard trying to disabuse some idiot pundits of the situation in the final months of WW2 -but then arguing history with retired asset managers probably is never a fruitful occupation. But an exceptional hour and half of content to a post doctorate level. Thanks for your content.

Superb with so much new information- It altered my whole outlook on the end of the war and I am a history freak.

Outstaning times 100 !!! Thank You!

Love how much im learning and have absorbed with your show "Bill" 😊i feel like ive acquired more in depth knowledge about the Pacific war than any college course would give me without any of the pressure. I appreciate your guy's chemistry which keeps me coming back 😊

Fantastic episode as always. This one pretty much confirmed what I already knew, as well as added a lot more context that only convinced me yet again that the bombings were in fact necessary. I think that the normal human temptation is to convince ourselves that there could have been another way, but any in-depth analysis will lead a rational discerning person to understand that there just wasn't, unfortunately.

Dr Frank is the best military historian I have listened to . Congratulations on a superb interview.

Another extremely informative and educational discussion. Thanks much

Great Episode Gentlemen! Richard is awesome 👏🏻👍🏻

Thank you for all this research and the oerspectives shown. After hearing about how my father won a DFC for a close air support mission helping to suppress Japanese artillery fire on Okinawa, I began to understand the terrible nature of the war. I have come to realize that I am living because my father did not have to fly close air support for the invasion of Kyushu because of the response to the atom bombs, as abhorrent as they were. Deciding the economy of killing the number with the bomb to stop the whole war with the ongoing killing/Starvation in China, and Malaya and Vietnam is an interesting point that I had not heard statistics on...

Another awesome episode. I learned more about how events unfolded at the end of the war than all the books I've read and documentaries I've watched 'till now. Perhaps due to the time I grew up in ( I was born in 1950), I've never subscribed to the revisionist idea of the U.S. being tarnished but the use of the A-bombs to end the war, but this really put that decision into perspective. Sadly, I've now binge watched all the episodes and have to wait a whole week for the next installment.

This is my third viewing of this episode. This is a great video.

I continue to be impressed with the narrative skills of Seth and Bill and now Richard Frank. This may be the best episode of the many (maybe all) of the episodes I have watched. One suggestion: Because there continues to be some overlap of Seth and Bill's comments, perhaps they can create some sort of signal to avoid this, in other words, to hesitate to comment knowing the other wants to talk. A small issue. Thanks again.

This is the most interesting and thought-provoking episode yet. Thank you for bringing in Richard Frank. An excellent historical analysis and perspective.

I am a Japanese aficionado of the Pacific war who has always enjoyed this video. Having spent my childhood in the U.S., I read that the emperor Hirohito, together with Tojo, were the evil villains of the war. However, recent Japanese history books I read tell a different story. In a sense, the emperor was just flag which flutter whichever way the flagpole bearers (Tojo et al) waved it. However, he was the one who finally put the nail in the coffin to end the war. Even though the military was still against accepting the Potsdam declaration, Hirohito for once became the flag that waved the flagpole bearers. He declared that Japan should surrender which put all argument to bed. Is there anyone who on the U.S. side who can collaborate this? For anyone really interested in perspective of the war on the losing side, I highly recommend the book “Eternal Zero”. It is also available in a movie. Although it is a novel, the description of the war to me is historically accurate. I presume the narratives of a Zero pilot are based on true stories. Anyway always appreciate the podcast.

Love your work guys.

Fantastic episode. Richard Frank was superb. I learnt a lot. As an aside, I have a few items: a. I understand that during the Potsdam Conference, in the margins Turman mentioned to Stalin that the US had something big to deliver the Japanese that in effect would be a game changer with which Stalin said he knew. Is this true? b. in 1940, Surabaya was the 2nd largest city in Indonesia with a population (if I can remember my numbers correctly ) was near 1 million (1.2 or 1.5, I think). As a result of Japanese occupation the population dwindled to near 350,000. The vast majority of whom were sent as forced labour across the empire (including the Burma railway) or had died of famine and other disease brought on by the dispatch of rice (the main produce of Java) to Japan. I am sure that every country in the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" have similar stories. c. This discussion of history is always one of context and it is an understanding of the situation that is imperative in coming up with moral judgements. I think from the US perspective at the time, anything - any means - was acceptable to bring about an end to the war. Love these podcasts. Keep up the good work.

My future father in law was a very junior navy officer in an LST heading from Hawaii to Saipan when the bomb was dropped. Thanks Harry Oppie and Gen Groves. Richard Franks’ books are required reading. All of them

Thank you for this in-depth analysis - South East Asia and China suffered a great deal and I think people who formed their opinion simply on the outcome for the Japanese (as awful as that was) are a little limited in their thinking.

Another superb history lesson. Well done !

My dad served in the 1st Cavalry regiment in the Philippines and his unit was part of the spearhead of the projected invasion. He was among the first US soldiers to set foot on Japan. He always stated that he believed it would have been much worse for the Japanese civilians had we NOT used the A-bombs. Great and fascinating episode, thank you!

You guys did it again! I thought I knew about the Pacific war, but Mr. Franks presented new material and brought up so many points to ponder that I am still absorbing them. I really need to read Rich's book(s) to get the braoder perspective of what was happening. Thank you for this fine presentation.

This is a conclusively, astonishingly powerful commentary. I am fully convinced Truman made the correct decision. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

My second time to view the show. I will probably watch it again. Thank you.

Of course a spectacular choice of a guest for the show, well done. So many key points were made - so many of which remain, inexplicably, completely absent from almost all discussions of "the bomb" and the war's end. If anything the apocalyptic consequences for Japan of a war prolonged beyond August '45 - and for Asians, and for Allied POWs (another ignored and big factor) - were understated here. Japan - and areas under their occupation - were very likely on the precipice of public health collapses that would have been of epochal proportions. Leaving aside the fundamental fallacy here - that an atomic bomb presents any different moral questions than a 2.5-lb incendiary dropped on Tokyo or Hamburg - the simple facts of the situation were that every day and week the war continued meant excess deaths on an enormous scale, with tipping points into unimaginable catastrophe looming (the US faced potential disaster in trying to avert famine in Japan even early in the occupation). Would like to suggest for those looking to read more, after Frank's "Downfall", read Diangreco's "Hell to Pay", which details many of the factors Frank alluded to here, notably the "casualty" issue (Saipan and Okinawa loomed large, even before the Kyushu intel reassessment), the "manpower crisis" in the US of March '45, and the Japanese preparations and likely "lessons learned" that well could have made Operation Olympic an incredibly costly battle. Small note. Americans' knowledge of and outrage over Japanese depredations in China came not just through newsreels, but private networks and churches of people connected to the many American missionaries then serving in China. Great job guys.

There are many great authors who have written about he Pacific War, but in my very humble opinion, Frank stands head and shoulders above them all. His "Guadalcanal" is not only my favorite book about that campaign, but it may be my favorite non-fiction book. I wish more people would look at the information he has provided about the end of the war. As terrible as the use of the atomic bombs was, there was no alternative in a political sense, but beyond that, ending the war quickly and at that time saved uncounted lives. As it was, after the war ended America acted much as it always did, and immediately saw to it that millions of Japanese who were about to starve to death were fed. We did the right thing.

Thanks for another great podcast.

Outstanding video interview, as always! Fascinating, professional, thoughtful, and informative. And tremendously applicable to the classroom as well. Many thanks!

Great and profound recap of the events and decisions on both sides at the end of the conflict. It greatly expanded and reinforced my personal views. This may well be the best and most meaningful episode in the series. I should repeated again as the series is completed....Hopefully Richard Frank will be able to update his volume three on conflict results.

Excellent. Very informative.

After surviving 5 weeks on Iwo Jima, my grandfather assumed that he would not survive the ground invasion of Japan. He never doubted the decision to drop the bombs. His weeks spent in Sasebo during the occupation convinced him that an invasion of Japan would have been 10 times worse than Iwo or Okinawa.

Great episode. Very informative. Thank you very much for doing this.

This has been the best episode yet. I've read Richard Frank's book on Guadalcanal and I am in the process of reading his others. I could listen to him talk about the war in the Pacific for hours. Hope you have the chance to bring him on for more episodes.

Wonderful and insightful!

Your channel is doing a great job covering the WWII Pacific theater which does not get much attention. Much kudos to you for bringing on excellent authors and historians.

What a great episode. Just watched it yesterday and it is one of the best! Had gone to see Oppenheimer yesterday midday so that timing was perfect. Richard Frank is a great story teller! Thank you for this episode, these videos make it fun to learn.

This was an OUTSTANDING episode! Your guest was the best ever in my viewpoint, and you have had great ones before! You have shown that your goal to really discuss, show, cover actual facts of WW II in the Pacific, and Asia from Frank's comments. I have been studying WW II for well over 35 years, and after you really study it, especially the Pacific war, there is no doubt that the bombs were needed and were the best way to end the bloodshed and the war. So, with Frank's explanation only reinforces my option of many years. But nothing was mentioned in this episode about Russia's invasion of Japanese territory that impacted the decision of the Japanese to capitulate, which I think did enter into their decision. Absolutely a great episode!!! I think eventually Seth and Bill that you should make a DVD (Blu-ray) set of all your episode. The information and level of detail should be propagated thru the generations, and I think that is a great way to do this. For instance, Victory at Sea is still being sold, one of the best documentaries ever on the War at sea. Of course, you have the individual video file of your RU-vid episodes, but I think on a disc set would more useful thru time and by the general public.

Wow have never even seen that family guy episode but as a 30 year old i also recognize i'am abnormal when it comes to an understanding of ww2

Brilliant program, one of the best discussions of the Pacific War on RU-vid.

Awesome episode - one point I think it worth making is that commentators and historians on the "port side" of politics say that what precipitated the Japanese surrender was in fact the Soviet entry of the war on the 8th of August. They attacked in Manchuria after midnight on the 9th. It has been said(eg Paul Ham) that the shock of this jolted the Japanese into surrender. I don't think is plausible. The Japanese(ie the all powerful military) weren't immediately aware of the scale of the Soviet attack - fog of war. They can't have put much faith in Togo's pathetic mediation efforts via Saito in Moscow. They must have realised that after their neutrality pact with the Soviets expired the Soviets were always like to attack them. Nor could they have had many illusions about the ability of the Kwantung Army to resist, it's capabilities against the Soviets were very limited anyway - the Soviet heavy equipment had hammered them during the 1939 Border War. The Japanese Army wasn't capable of fighting a serious opponent on land given their rotten tanks, they had stripped the Kwantung Army of equipment anyway during the course of the Pacific War. So they must have known that the Kwantung Army was a write off - but as the Japanese military was prepared to see 20m of its own people destroyed that would not have bothered them. I read David Dean Barrett "140 Days to Hiroshima" with the Oppenheimer film upcoming - had previously read Downfall. He says that the Japanese didn't have the means to invade Hokkaido - they could cross rivers but not a 24 mile sea gap - like the Germans couldn't invade England in 1940. I have heard a "port side" historian say that the Japanese greatly feared that the Soviets would invade Hokkaido and that there would be a partition of the Home Islands - and thus surrendered. This isn't the case at all, the Soviets made a small amphibious attack on the the Japanese base on the Kuril Island of Shumshu after the surrender - 18th to 21st August. But Japanese artillery sank 5 out of 16 of the LSIs the US had given them and inflicted 1600 casualties The Red Army Chief of staff said that before this that the Soviets should not expose themselves to the strong Japanese defences on the Home Islands. The "shock" of Soviet entry into the war might have been a lesser factor - but the surrender has got to have been down to the two bombs

Thank you, Mr. Frank, for your masterful dissertation on what was happening to the other Asians as the war drug on. The Chinese had to of been accounting for a significant proportion of those dying needlessly to the Japanese military aggression. I very much enjoyed everybody's input. In my nearly sixty years of reading of WWII I knew part of this. This was the first time I heard anyone delve into what was happening to other asians. Earlier, and before Pearl Harbor, Japan said they were getting rid of European colonialism and setting up an Asian Co-prosperity sphere. Their victims said derisively said, "yes, Japan gets the prosperity, and we get the co!"

What an excellent episode and guest. Thank you for making this. To Rich's point at the end about the great Asian Pacific conflict it has long been my thinking that the war west of us was the larger war in every sense. I am also glad to hear that I am not crazy in believing that the United States went to war for China, as China's suffering was the reason for the oil embargo. Again, thank you for inviting Rich and allowing us all to learn from him.

My dad, 2nd div marine fought on tarawa, tinian, saipan and Okinawa survived all those battles with numerous banzai attacks. Odds of surviving the invasion of Japan would've been low, he came home married and had a family naming the first 3 sons after a marine he served with that didn't survive Okinawa. With the marines at tarawa won an academy award for best documentary, death was everywhere you walked on that island that is if you made it to the beach. Saipan's marpi point was unforgettable to anyone that witnessed the suicides. Tinian was a brilliant strategy using a fake landing on one side of the island while the real invasion was on the other side which was followed by the marines from the fake landing, it fooled them and we had low causality. Okinawa could've been cut shorter with a landing from behind Japanese lines. Enjoyed your video and im probably alive because of the 2 bombs.

i'd love to see an episode devoted to alternate strategies and leadership for both sides. great content!

Brilliant discussion. I certainly learned a # of new tidbits by watching. Thanks, Sirs!

Excellent. Growing up I knew multiple Pacific war veterans including several POWs. More than one volunteered that the bomb saved lives, they were there. I had to endure the uninformed critics. Now with much more learned of the details ..... it was the best of bad options. Great show, great guess.

Thank you for taking the time to create these pod casts. You provide insights and insights that I have never heard before. In addition, you present the information in a way that "connects the dots" more clearly than most (if not all) of the history books that I have read on the Pacific theater. I appreciate your efforts, thanks again.

Fantastic episode. Richard Franks' analysis was indeed masterful and did a wonderful job of placing the decisions of US leaders in proper historical context. The bombs were the "least worst" option, and I will defend that position in any discussion. The angst that has come up afterward is disheartening (we have pretty horrible history education in the US), but it is also encouraging because the taboo against these weapons is strong and will hopefully ensure these weapons are never used again. My wife is also Korean, and I very much appreciate you describing the horrific cost in lives in China, Indonesia, Korea, Vietnam, and all occupied areas. Those were brutal occupations, and Japan's inability to reckon productively (as I believe Germany effectively has) with that past is a great travesty. I have heard many family anecdotes looking back on the brutality of the occupation. On the "racist war" discussion, I don't believe the war originates with racist origins or motivations; there's a lot of racism in our conduct if the war (interning Japanese Americans, racist posters and media, etc).

When I was taking AP US History in high school in 1990, the state of scholarship seemed to be that Operation Downfall was projected to be far worse, with millions of additional US casualties (even with the Soviets along to help with the dying) and millions to tens of millions of additional Japanese deaths. Similarly, continuing to blockade the Japanese home islands and laying mines to interfere with inter-island commerce, while maintaining the strategic bombing campaign with conventional incendiaries, would also have produced millions of additional Japanese deaths. As it turns out, the "shock and awe" (to borrow a phrase) of the atomic bombs proved to be sufficient to offer a face-saving excuse for surrender, even if some Japanese Army officers didn't see it that way and mutinied.

Thank you gentlemen.

Had to watch this again. A brilliant conversation.

Absolutely amazing thank you for doing this

Born during war and Frank is correct there was little controversy over the use of the bombs post war. As WW2 recedes into the past more authors come out of the woodwork telling us what really happened in WW2. It’s over, and the heroes are dead, they may have made mistakes, but so did everyone. The strategies used were all open to debate at the time and consensus choose what was to be done. Memoirs after the war were written to sell books and should be taken that way. Vietnam veteran myself and old enough to remember the aftermath of WW2 from quite well.

My father graduated from high school in May-June 1944 and then he was drafted into the Navy. After boot camp, he was assigned to the crew of a Navy B-17 bomber. He began training for the invasion of Japan. He was told upfront in training that Army/Navy expected 50% causalities of the Allied forces. Dad made the comment that by 1944 and 1945, the war really was an all-out slugfest. Most of the causalities occurred from mid-1943 to August 1945, when both the war in Europe and the Pacific was at its peak. Considering how violent and destructive WW2 was the two atomic bomb attacks were just part of all-out war. One last comment, no one not the scientists, not the politicians or the military really knew what they were dealing with.