Dr. Dustin Smith - Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John 

Interesting

The convergence of jewish sages and John Vervaeke

@@transfigured3673it was always there

Thanks for listening

Sometimes Christianity has to employ dozens of academics to write papers and do research to find an answer to a question instead of just asking some Jews

Glad you enjoyed it!

Glad you liked it! thanks for listening

Thanks for listening

What exactly would the debate be about?

A debate about how high the christology is in the Quran. He would probably argue for a low christology while you would argue for a higher christology. Below are some examples of Quranic christology: 1) Jesus is God’s Word to Mary fullfilled through the Virgin Birth (4:171) 2) Jesus is a Spirit from God which enables him to perform Miracles, revive the dead and speak to the people from the crib.(4:171,2:87 and 5:110) 3) Jesus is one of those closest to God because Jesus is the exalted servant who was raised to God in the highest heaven to Lead creation in the worship of God as God’s heavenly High Priest (17:1, 3:45) 4) Jesus has been given the authority to remove some of God’s previous prohibitions and restrictions to the Children of Israel while also being given the authority to forgive some of their sins. (3:50, 5:15)

I don't understand how a debate would take place instead of a discussion. Neither the New Testament or the Quran can impose what they say on to the other, only compare and admit when there are differences and similarities (if the "debaters" are capable of honesty). 1) The New Testament simply doesn't say that or even imply that. It is the gospel of John and the author of Revelation that attribute Jesus as the word of God and its never in relation to him being born from Mary, rather in relation to Jesus status as the revealer of God and his wisdom/knowledge, and the one through whom he fulfills his plans. 2) Not sure what the Quran means by "spirit from God". More clarification would be helpful. As for how he did his miracles, the New Testament is pretty clear "God was with him", God had bestowed his spirit/power on him, and God had given him authority/ability to do those things. 3) Honestly, the New Testament agrees. The only things that the New Testament would add, though quite vehemently, is that he is not just God's servant but his son, God looks at him like a unique son. It would also add that Jesus is not just leading priest but also made a King over creation by God as well. Lastly the New Testament pretty unanimously presents the idea that Jesus, though born special and holy, earned his extreme position of authority and favor by being faithful and obedient to God even through extreme suffering and death, saving his fellow man in the process. 4) That idea is very similar to the New Testament. However the New Testament does give the impression that the things Jesus did were God's will as well, meaning God also was forgiving sins and removing previous prohibitions himself, not just delegating authority to Jesus to do it as he sees fit.

@youngknowledgeseeker Sunnis are a bit combatative like trinitarians so they prefer arguments over discussion. Sometimes we understand the WORD litteraly when it can mean a promise in the form of a sentence. For example: ”I will give you back the money in two days. You have my WORD.” God gives the following ”WORD/PROMISE” to Mary in the Quran: ”The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a WORD from Him whose NAME is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and ONE OF THOSE CLOSEST TO ME'” 3:45 So God gives his Word to Mary that she will concieve through the virgin birth the Messiah who will reach great levels of piety and rigtiousness. God keeps his promises and that is why He is a God of His WORD. ( the prologue of John). The interview Jesus seems to be undergoing is an interview regarding how fit he will be as the Heavenly High priest. The Quran does not seem to indicate that Jesus will be some sort of kingly ruler. The interview: ”GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.” 5:116 Regarding kingship the greatest example of a Ruler is King Solomon. He is blessed with powers similar to Jesus and never falls into idol worship. Very different from the Solomon in the Bible. God tests his loyalty through his beloved horses. Solomon’s reaction is that he imediatelly got rid of the horses because they made him forget the time for prayer. This is so different from the Solomon in the old testament who dies as an idol worshipper.

To make sure lay people understand that in no way shape or form were any of the people who embody wisdom literally wisdom itself come to life/human form. Hypostasis carries the baggage of the idea that God's word/wisdom literally metamorphed into a human being or something thanks to the baggage of the Trinity.

​@@youngknowledgeseeker Well my point is basically that 'personhood' as we conceive of it in the West (and subsequent the notion of 'personification') and also notions as 'abstract idea' or 'property/attribute of God' are not neutral terms, but theologically laden concepts. Smith (and many with him) acts if these terms aren't problematic - I tend to disagree. So this is what I see as a weakness in his otherwise strong argument. I - and with me most Church Fathers (and may I add Paul & John?) until the 4th century - do see 'wisdom' (as Gods perceived plan / telos for the world) as a divine conscious reality / manifested as light and Word (Gen. 1.3) that ultimately becomes human in Jesus. I honestly don't know if the term 'person' applies to this divine reality since the term is only an analogy derived from our experience.

Never! It's authentic and relatable!

That is interesting. Origen interpreted “in the beginning was the word” to mean “in the source/origin was the word” and that the source of logos must be Sophia.

@@transfigured3673 I see John 1:1 as the beginning of the ministry of Jesus, which is why the word begins at the baptism which John preached,Acts 10:36-42. you know THE WORD which he sent to Israel preaching the good news by Jesus Christ THE WORD which was proclaimed throughout Israel BEGINNING from Galilee after the baptism which John preached This is when the word becomes flesh, which is why John testifies about the word becoming flesh in John 1:15. John was six months older than Jesus, he’s not testifying now about the word become flesh at his crib lol The word “became flesh” because the Holy Spirit of God came over Jesus, anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit….this is when Jesus began his ministry and preaching that Word of God, God put his words into the mouth of the Messiah That’s why John shows up so early in the beginning in John 1:6, and why Matthew opens up with the beginning of Jesus, Mark starts with the beginning of the gospel, Luke starts with the beginning and the witnesses of the word

Care to share a quote?

@@transfigured3673 "...And after revealing His ways and attributes, then He began to perform His deeds, when the firstborn son was born to Him, which is the world of the throne and the conduct that He established in His holiness how He would conduct the governance of the worlds and God sits on His holy throne."

I believe he is suggesting "Firstborn son" as a metaphorical expression likely referring to humanity or a principal aspect of creation that embodies Gods governance

"The LORD acquired me at the beginning of His course, wisdom is the form of all the worlds, they were all made and planned, measured and prepared according to the statutes of wisdom, and through it and by its means and according to its measure and blueprint, all the worlds were designed and perfected from the beginning to the end. And at the time, the way of the LORD, His first course, was to bring creation out of nothing, which is called a 'way', because the beginning of the revelation of the ancient will was in what He bestowed, a holy and awe-inspiring influence, in which He revealed the ways in which He would lead the world with kindness and might, and with His holy attributes of compassion, graciousness, long-suffering, and glory. Wisdom was the beginning of His way, as the ways of His conduct, which were bestowed in the first hidden influence, were all founded according to the statutes of wisdom, and it was the beginning for them, and as its translation 'In the beginning with wisdom.' And after revealing His ways and attributes, then He began to perform His deeds, when the firstborn son was born to Him, which is the world of the throne and the conduct that He established in His holiness how He would conduct the governance of the worlds and God sits on His holy throne. Also, these deeds of His were made according to the statutes of wisdom, as the general conduct are according to the measure of wisdom, and it was before His deeds, since the undertaking and the business began:"

Similar to Adam Elyon?

Please advise what Scriptures you have to support your statement.