Big thanks for teaching me how to play a sub. Went from an 33k overall with 380+ ilvl to, 48k same dungeon with more knowledge Danse Macabre this made my SecT do such insane dmg! Big ups to you man!
I’m maining a rogue again and I’m 353 ilvl atm doing maybe 33k dps in m2’s. But I did learn some nice tricks in such a short time. I’ll test it out today. Thank you Coco for this amazing guide.
Amazing guide mate! Was thinking of trying sub after only playing outlaw this season. This guide helped a ton to understand the rotation and the build overall. 👏👏
Thanks for watching! Let me know in the comments what you think about this build or if you've tried it before. If you enjoy the content, please consider subbing to help me out! Also, here's a link to my discord where you can chat with me and other gamers about WoW and mythic+: discord.gg/6ssBNm2Kg4 Errata + corrections (Thanks to @Kieron!) * tornado in dance is a ~1% dps loss. Press tornado before or after dance instead! * In 2 target fights, gloomblade is higher dps than shurkien storm when lingering shadows has > 6 seconds remaining. * In 2 target fights during shadow dance, the optimal rotation is Dance + shadowstrike > evis > SStorm > gloomblade if at 4-5CP > sectech. * On up to 6 targets during dance, we want to cast one shadowstrike to get an additional danse macabre stack before casting sectech: Dance + shadowstrike > BP > SStorm > sectech
@@kazaroth Hey! I use Elvui for the unit frames, and weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, and energy/cp. I have a link the video description with all of the different parts! I'll also consider making a vid going over the different things in my UI, I've been getting this question more and more lately
I wish I could give you 100 likes. Even though I enjoyed Yoda's video of this build and you got this build from Yoda, imo you explained it much better than he did. Not dissin Yoda. TYVM brotha. I have this vid saved and often rewatch it and link it to other guildies in Discord.
@@cocomojo-gg 2 weeks later still loving sub and using what this guide thaught me. I have to ask how you get your gcd on your mouse like that it's siiiick
@@Nimsan hell yeah! Glad the vid was helpful. I use a slightly modified version of this for my mouse gcd: wago.io/cbJBOwkmy I think I just changed the color, and maybe the size a bit
Glad you enjoyed the vid! Luckily both sub and outlaw are in a really great spot right now. I think sub is a little better in most keys but you can safely play both or whatever you like most (:
@@cocomojo-gg 100%. I’ve been maining warlock. But main alt is rogue and liked outlaw but really enjoying sub a lot. Your video has helped a ton! I can see a lot more rogue in my future.
Thank you for great video. I like playing sub rogue and don’t want to be pressured into Outlaw! The secret tech on single target is an eyes wide open moment. Never used on st!
Glad you enjoyed it! Luckily all the rogue specs are strong right now. Some are better than others in specific situations, but you can make them all work really well in any pve content. And yeah, if we could press sectech for every global then we would (:
Errors in rotation: Never press Tornado in dance - It is a ~1.1% dps loss. You only press it BEFORE or AFTER shadow dance. I know Yoda does this, but it is incorrect play. You can also tornado > Dance + SoD > 4x BP > SStorm > Sectech for some more minor gains. In single target you can Tornado > Dance + SoD > GB > Evis > SS > Sectech. Once you've cast Gloomblade once during dance you never press it again in that same dance. 2 target rotation outside of dance was incorrect - You cast Gloomblade outside of dance until there is 6s remaining on the Lingering Shadows buff, after which you Shuriken Storm. The dance rotation in 2t *specifically* also changes to Dance +SS > Evis > SStorm > GB if at 4-5CP > Sectech or can swap SStorm > GB with the SS for slightly more damage on Evis. Up to 6 targets the dance rotation is Dance + SS > BP > SStorm > Sectech when SnD is active. 7 targets or more you drop the SS for SStorm. I know the video is a month old now and things fall out of date but it's really not bad as a start but incorrect information can form bad habits if you want to meaningfully improve when learning a spec. Numbing is universally more valuable the higher you go - The cast speed reduction is huge + your tank will love you. 3% DR falls off pretty fast.
HUGE thanks for this! I think some of these were discovered after this vid was made, but some i just straight up missed. Thanks for giving me the heads up!
Awesome video! Would be great if you could do a video about all those handy little tricks that rogues provide like the vanish situation you mentioned in this video, where to cloak or maybe shroud skips in M+
Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback, I think that's a great idea. I have some footage I can use, I'll work on putting together a comprehensive guide (:
Thanks, I've tried sub a few times in medium keys, although things die a bit fast for me to really practice this in a dungeon, the explanations you have are really helpful in different scenarios. I have a question about 2-3 target though, do you only shuriken storm + evis? Do you ignore rupture if there's only 2-3 targets at a time?
Glad you liked the vid! Yeah med or low keys can be tough, you can get more value out of sectec but way less value from rupture. In general you want to rupture any target that will live for at least 12 seconds at any target count
Yeah sub is really quite good, all the rogue specs are tbh! Feels good to have a bunch of viable options that play differently and have some unique strengths
Thanks! Yeah it's pretty close to up to date, check the pinned comment for some optimizations. I cover the single target rotation in the vid which you can use for bosses in m+. For raid, here's the recommended build: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAEBkkICBIIJIJJRikEpkkEtAJlkQSSkWAAAA It drops the AoE talents and picks up shadowblades and the first dance. The opener is a bit different for this as well: shadowstrike + symbols > gloomblade > rupture > dance > gloomblade > evis > shadowstrike > sectec
so its only dance / symbols you wanna line up with secret tech? some rogues were telling me they only use tech with everything, including cold blood, thistle tea but i do feel like youre able to use tech a lot less when u wait for everything. wasnt sure if worth
You definitely don't want to wait for everything, you'll miss a lot of sectec casts that way. You only line up dance and sectec since they end up having the same cooldown. I will tea with sectec in aoe if i am at max stacks or i have cold blood, otherwise i pool tea charges for single target fights since we get energy starved in single target very easily. In general you want to send everything on cooldown, while lining up dance + sectec (which happens naturally). The only time you aren't pressing your buttons on cooldown is if the pull is about to die and you won't get most of the value.
Hello, is it just me or is this build pretty hard to understand for a rogue beginner? Why is it so important to have shadow dance active for secret technic?
Hey! The reason we pair dance and sectec is that they line up naturally (both have a 1 minute cooldown that's reduced by spending combo points) and dance gives us damage buff to make sectec hit harder. In general, use your cooldowns as often as possible, keep rupture on targets that will live for a while, and build + spend as many combo points as you can! Thanks for the question, feel free to ask anything
Great question! We gloomblade once during dance in single target to get an additional danse macabre stack. It's a damage gain to do this in single target but not in AoE
Thank you! I sim all of my gear choices, but a reasonable stat prio is crit >= mastery ~= vers > haste. Your stats sound reasonable to me! I think that's roughly what I'm at too at 405ilvl
Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely make a sin guide at some point. I haven't played it since the original wrath xpac, so I'm excited to learn how it has changed since then!
Hola te saludo desde Perú, gracias por el tiempo que dedicas en realizar estos tutoriales, definitivamente ayudará a mucha gente. Por otro lado, quería consultarte sobre los addons que utilizas, me llamo mucho la atención el que se refleja los tiempos de las habilidades. Habrá alguna manera de poder copiarlos? Gracias por todo, Quedo atento a tus comentarios. Saludos.
Hello! I had to put this through google translate, but I think I understand what you mean. I'm glad you like the video :) I use elvui and weakauras for almost everything. My elvui profile and weakauras (spell cool downs) are here: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6 Enjoy!
Thanks for watching! It's best to sim all gear choices, but generally mastery is best for aoe, and crit and vers are strong overall. Try to avoid haste as much as you can, and higher ilvl is almost always a safe choice!
Yup! I just have a macro. I don't think there's a situation in dragonflight where you want to cast them separately while they're both up. There was one case like that in shadowlands so I used to press them separately. But now I just use a macro since we just want to send them both on cooldown
At least 2 in aoe, and at least 3 in single target. For aoe you can SD -> BP -> SS -> sectec to get 2 stacks (3 for the follow up hits from sectec). For single target, weaving in one gloomblade gets us a 3rd stack
That is the action tracker plugin that comes with details damage meter! The default setting is some list view, but you can switch it to these icons instead
Nice video man, i'm main rogue since legion and im never be interest in sub cuz i always thought it has some of most difficult rotation, but its kinda simple tho
Thanks! Yeah it's not too bad imo, I think it's easier than it was in SL since there's way less cooldowns syncing. Feels really good in keys with consistent 5+ mob pulls
@@cocomojo-gg yeah, for sure, in legion u had to sync so much things also and i was like "man i have only 2 hands wtf" lol, but now for me its the most fun spec of them all
Yeah I could share that info. I'll probably make a UI + keybinds vid at some point. For now, I use esdf to move then bind everything to the right and left of my hand. I also have a mouse with 4 buttons, so I have all of those + scroll wheel bound. And I use shift and control modifiers to get more binds out of all those buttons
Thanks! I use ElvUI for my unit frames, weakauras to track my CDs energy and combo points, and omnicd to track kicks + CC + party cooldowns. I have a bunch of other addons for minor things, but these 3 are what you're seeing in the vid. Here's a link to the ElvUI profile and weakauras if you want to try them out: wago.io/ykDFyJ5t6
Yeah! I use this weakaura: wago.io/8xGN251mS Just follow the instructions for setting up the accompanying macro in the description. I've never had a problem in dungeons, but I don't know how it will work in raid with two tanks. You may want to swap to a mouse over or a hard coded macro for your raid tank
Thank you! For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
Hey! I use weakauras for all the cooldowns, buffs, energy and CP. There's a link in the description where you can find all of them to import if you want to try it out! Just install the weakauras addon first then use the import feature. The spells i cast come from an action tracker plugin with details damage meter. It comes with details, so just install details and you're good to go! The default look is like a list, but you can change to be square icons, adjust the size, etc
Yeah that's great feedback, I didn't touch on gear or BiS trinkets or anything like that. You're right that mastery and crit are best for M+: mastery gives us stronger finishers and we're playing around secret technique. Crit helps make sectech hit harder, but also works along with seal fate to give extra combo points from crits. Vers is also a great stat, generally slightly lower value than crit but it's worth simming. And we should avoid haste altogether. A little haste is fine, but it's generally always our worst stat. Sorry for overlooking stats! I'll include stat + gearing info in future vids. I really appreciate the feedback :)
@@cocomojo-gg No problem at all! Hope to see a Raid guide build as well if you find the time! Trying to make the move from outlaw because sub is alot more fun.
Thanks for the comment! I've heard this before from others, but haven't experienced it myself. I heard it can happen if you press a shadow dance + symbols macro then immediately follow with a CB + sectech macro. I always delay sectech by at least one cycle of build cp -> finisher to get some danse stacks, but I should test to see if back to back macros may be the problem
For single target then should you start using Eviscerate x2 then go full Black Powder? I get the idea of having maintenence buffs up all the time, tea if you go starved on energy. Should you always also spend Cold Blood with Secret Technique? im wondering because of the point with having the macro
Hey! For single target, we don't want to cast black powder at all. Three targets is when BP starts to do more damage than evis, so we'll press at 3 or more targets only. And yeah, we always hold cold blood for sectec. The macro makes it so you don't have to think about it, just press sectec on cooldown and you'll get CB when it's available!
@@unclecharlie5766 Almost never, we'll usually only use gloom blade or shadow strike for single target to build combo points. The only exception to this is if we can't position behind our target to naturally apply find weakness with gloom blade. In that case, it's worth to cast one shuriken storm at the start of dance to apply find weakness for the duration of dance (via the 100% crit from shuiken storm at the start of dance). This is very rare though since we can almost always play behind our target for nearly 100% find weakness uptime
I don't raid since I can't commit to a fixed raid schedule, but I'd recommend playing one of the builds from the class discord. This build will play similarly to what I talk about, but has some strong single target talents and drops the double rupture and AoE talents: BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhAJJiQACSCSSSkIJRKJJRSiWSJCJJhWAAAA Enjoy!
Hey Coco, loved the vídeo! I was wondering, could you Share the middle weakaura you're using for the Cada belos/around the energy bar? Been giving sub a try again after struggling with Sin's dmg output and I still forget some Sub stuff, mainly because of how cooldowns usage is with Danse Macabre and single SD
Hey! That's strange, I just tried re-importing the WA and it's working for me. Try re-importing the latest version and ping me on discord if you want help troubleshooting: cocomojo#8004
Great question! We get find weakness from improved backstab (crits from behind apply find weakness) and improved shuriken storm (SS crits apply find weakness) in the sub tree, so we already have very high uptime on FW (usually over 90% uptime). I almost never have to intentionally do something to apply FW; I will rarely shuriken storm in single target due to area denial preventing me from fighting something from behind to naturally apply FW. Otherwise I just get high uptime from fighting bosses from behind and pressing shuriken storm in aoe
We want to rupture all targets that will live at least 12 seconds. The way I like to do this is get some ruptures up while the tank is grouping, then get dance + sectech on cd, bp throughout dance, then get the rest of the ruptures up between cd windows
Shuriken storm costs 3 fewer gcds and much less energy than casting shuriken storm 4 times, which gives you more gcds and energy to spend on other abilities!
Glad you liked it! That's a weakaura, I don't remember where I originally got it but I backed it up on wago, here's the link: wago.io/piDGgGT_s I think it's purple by default? But you can change to whatever color you like
Thanks for asking! You can pick either acrobatic strikes or improved ambush, but I find that acrobatic strikes is much easier to play and you don't lose much overall dps according to sims. Acrobatic makes it easier to hit all mobs in AoE, and lets us play a bit safer during boss fights. Whereas improved ambush gives us a couple percent more dps on boss fights, but doesn't do anything for AoE. It may be worth making this switch during tyrannical weeks to optimize for boss dps
Sub is pretty much the same as outlaw that way! We get cooldown reduction on dance and sectec for every combo point we spend, so you'll have damage very often. It's okay to hold dam for a short time to line up with important things (like the damage amp phase of bird boss in AA), but generally you should send CDs as often as possible
@@neihl9948 No prob! Sub is actually getting a small buff in 10.0.5! A talent we don't really play in raid or m+ is a little stronger, so the spec won't really change for many players. There's a decent chance that sub becomes the strongest rogue spec for m+ overall and gets played everywhere since outlaw is catching a couple smallish nerfs, and already does less overall dps than sub
Mastery is definitely best for sub, but crit is a very good stat too. Basically all stats other than haste are good. I recommend having gear sets for each spec and upgrade items for each set when something new sims better that what you used to have
2 daggers is best, shadow technique isn't normalized to offhand speed, so dagger is best for extra CP gen. Dagger attack speed in offhand is worth something crazy like 40 ilvl
I use weakauras for all the spell cooldowns and buffs in the middle, and the spell casts history on the right near the damage meter is an action tracker that's built in to details damage meter
In AoE, why don't we start with a rupture after the dance to get an extra stack? And on a single target, is it not better to use an eviscerate during dance before ST for the same reason?
Hmm that's an interesting idea! I think that could be very strong when paired with a late tornado during dance. It will come down to the value tradeoff between the extra rupture uptime + 1 extra DM stack, vs the damage gained by fitting one more black powder into the dance. Something like full CP -> dance -> rupture -> storm -> BP -> tornado -> sectech -> BP spam. I'm going to try it out, but we may need some sim nerd to figure it out. Maybe this is the excuse I need to learn how to write simc APLs... :)
Oh, and for single target, absolutely you want to cast one evis before ST. I don't think I explained that clearly, but take a look at the action tracker above my damage meter and you'll see i'm fitting in one evis, building back to full CP, then pressing sectech. Thanks for the questions and ideas! Hope you're liking the build and having fun playing rogue so far :)
You dont want to waste GCDs in dance, thats why you dont rupture during dance. Every GCD in dance is very valuable with the single dance build, and in AoE(lets say 6 target situation) its just a very low value GCD to use rupture during dance, using Black Powder is simply WAY more damage. In terms of Danse stacks, it doesnt matter if you rupture or Black Powder first, theyll give the same Danse stacks...except BP will do far more damage. You have plenty of time to put up/refresh Ruptures outside of Dance to farm your Dance CD back.
@@Handcannon77hard disagree with this sentiment. Sectec is massive damage, just as popping dance, so you want to empower it as much as possible. You’re only getting one every 30 seconds and it’s damage alone is competitive with black power being on a single GCD button . Because of this getting an extra stack of macabre is warranted because of how good sectec is. Any guide will tell you rupture is good in mass aoe during dance to get 5 stacks instead of 4. T while it is minmaxing, it is more damage nonetheless.
Hey! Rupture doesn't snapshot, which means that it you have rupture up and then enter dance it will do 30% more dam. Given this, you're better off having ruptures going and then having all your globals during dance deal direct dam to maximize the value of the damage bonus during dance. FYI this vid is from last season, so there's likely better info out there you should check out instead (: glhf
Secret technique doesn’t work or I finally discovered that Blizzard Devs or GMs nerf accounts…7 combo points on a dummy with procs and Horns of Valor…you know how much damage I did? 11,553…and max 14,551
Ahh yeah, I think there's some bug with details as well where the damage from the shadow clones doesn't always show up for everyone. There's also a bug where sectech doesn't benefit from nightstalker... game in beta. Hopefully these issues get resolved soon
That's a weakaura! Here's the weakaura suite that includes the sound cue: wago.io/RVtcFsiyA It current makes the robot beep when symbols of death comes off CD, which is a bit of a relic from shadowlands when we synched all our CDs with symbols. I think it'd be better to make a sound cue when dance + sectech are off CD since sub revolves around those cooldowns now instead of symbols
I add a glow effect under display, then add a condition to enable it when the ability is off cooldown. I will sometimes also add other conditions, for example: when blade flurry is off cooldown but i still have more than 3 seconds of BF left, then it won't glow since I don't want to refresh it too early
I find shadow focus to be easier to play than shadow blades. For m+ builds, we can realistically move 2 points between shadow focus, shadow blades, and shuriken tornado. I don't want to give up tornado since it's so good for aoe, and I find shadow focus to be much easier to play than shadow blades if I"m not also taking shadow focus. Shadow blades sims a little higher than shadow focus, but i play more consistently with shadow focus. I may end up playing shadow focus + shadow blades and dropping tornado on high enough tyran keys
@@cocomojo-gg I’m not used to playing with tornado so I’d prefer using the other 2. If you make some videos trying both out in mythic plus that would be cool to watch
Shadowblades is good for single target, but is harder to play than shadow focus since you usually need to intentionally pool energy before going into dance. Shadow focus sims a bit lower than shadowblades, but i like it more since it's more consistent for me. We could also drop shuriken tornado on tyran weeks and take both shadow focus and shadowblades for more single target dam. I recommend trying out a few different builds to see what works best for you!
Haha thanks! I haven't watched his yet, but yoda is an amazing player and I've learned a ton from watching his streams. I'm sure his guide is good as well!
I think ER + KiR is the most fun rogue spec, and all the good outlaw specs are definitely strong. This build seems better in some dungeons (like AA or possibly NO), but is lacking so much utility that we get with ER + KiR outlaw. I think which is best to play will come down to dungeon, key level, team, everything really. Overall I'm super happy with the state of rogue in m+, we have a lot of viable builds that are all strong
@@christianbutcher542 Yeah I could see that. Outlaw's damage profile is very flat, albeit consistently high. Whereas sub and sin have some burst in there, which can be exciting to play. But since they revolve around strong cooldowns we have noticeable downtime, which feels relatively unimpactful. Luckily, all the rogue specs are in a very good spot right now, so choosing based on preference is perfectly reasonable IMO (:
@@christianbutcher542 How does one think Outlaw is boring, but Sub isnt in AoE lol? Sub is only slightly less boring in DF compared to SL(where you quite literally just spammed SS>BP non stop in AoE) and its still an incredibly simple, easy to execute, non-reactive spec in AoE. At least Outlaw is a dynamic spec where you have to react to procs, min-max RtB buffs and is very high APM...I actually have to focus in high keys playing Outlaw whereas with Sub im practically falling asleep half the time.
Thanks! Yeah sub is fun, I enjoy all the rogue specs so I just swap based on what i'm feeling or what I think is best for the dungeon i'm running. Luckily, all the specs are strong overall, so we can play whatever we like most :)
@@cocomojo-gg agreed, I've been playing all 3 specs. It's pretty weird they are all competitive, I've been rogue since TBC and it has never been like this.
