Eddy Marmolejo Why would Khan want Vengence? For what? The people that forced him into exile died during the thrid world war since he left Earth circa the 90s. Why would he want Vengence on anyone in the 23rd? Kirk hasn't banished him to a soon to die planet yet, so he doesn't have his hardon for Kirk yet. There is no point in trying to justify all the stupid plot holes in this movie.
3:35 I think it was brilliant. The ship's bridge is less vulnerable from the front, back, and sides, in exchange for being more vulnerable from the top and bottom. It was a really subtle nod to the Mutara nebula scene, and Spock's assessment that Khan thinks in 2 dimensional terms. Apparently this still holds true in the reboot.
It's called the vengeance because the ship was made to end wars, not to start them as stated before, it was designed as more of a counter attack warship rather then a incursion warship.
And as far as its size you're also incorrect, warships are made large and bulky to fit stronger armor and more weapons, the defiant was one exception to this design, the smaller vessels like you're talking about are raiders and or attack ships, they are made with a lot of fire power and small for fast and swift movement, but there armor is very low and they can't take much punishment as a result, the defiant though being classified by the federation as a warship, is really much more of a attack ship then a warship, as once again warships are meant to lead the fight with high durability and fire power. Though I do have to agree, the over all premises of the vengeance mean they should have built it as a attack ship rather then a war ship, but as far as warships go its size is correct.
Hazardous For a "secret vessel meant to be operated with minimal crew", and in terms of retcon, logistically it made sense to use an existing frame, as it would be easier to "acquire" assets for upkeep of the ship. Ship design is always full of compromises, and like the Defiant, in a way its better to reutilize a functional, but flawed design, than build one from scratch, after all, it would probably be hard to design a brand new Defiant type ship. in that era. Automation certainly helps with the secret nature of the project, minimizing crew. As for operation though, and material costs, it makes no sense for a ship that size. It seems slow, lumbering, and vulnerable. A large ship with minimal crew would be hard to maintain and repair, and like seen in the movie, hard to keep secure as there are MANY hiding spaces. It only makes sense for a ship that large if it had auxiliary craft and as we also seen in that movie, space to house a large contingent of troops for a landing party, in line with Star Destroyers. Then again, on the production side, it was designed for plot reasons, an evil, Stealth Enterprise. Vengeance seems more in line with planetary bombardment and stand off roles than as a direct combatant. Maybe that was the point of the ship, to attack soft targets from large distances than the knife fight of traditional Federation ships, a sniper as you will, when the battles are expected to turn dire. An ace in the hole.
Exactly it's just like how in WW2 the major powers kept o building larger and larger battleships. Before Carriers became the norm, and made Battleships obsolete. What I have issue with this ship is that they made it to much of a beast and there is no going back really. (unless they say that they found an issue with the firepower or something, and had to shelve it)
So basically the enemy attacks the Fed, war starts, the Vengeance is deployed to counter attack, no the name makes sense. I do think Kirk was in the wrong for the existence of the ship. Having a dedicated warship for Starfleet is a good thing. Where other ships can be out exploring, the Vengeance Dreadnoughts can be at Earth with a crew always on shift, ready to deploy the ships if war breaks out. Starfleet learned this with the Borg that there will always be an enemy wanting to destroy you, and designed the Akira and Defiant and other classes specifically for war, thus we get the Escort type in STO.
It's named after an English tall ship the HMS Vengeance. There's also a difference between being able to be crewed by a skeleton crew, and being meant to be crewed by a skeleton crew. It's obviously meant to have a full crew compliment, fighters, pilots, ground forces, it's a warship afterall. But it was still top secret, I'm sure once the klingon war it was built for was in full swing and it was commissioned as a ship of the line, it would be loaded to the bilge with starfleet personnel
Probably loaded with fighters and troops if prepared for other types of ops, but if it's just engaging in space combat, keep a skeleton crew of the Captain and security personnel.
The cannons could either be for shooting at extremely large targets, even a planet. It would be easy to claim that the physical turrets and the general enormous size of the cannons could be due to their extreme power draw or something, and that they likewise generate massive amounts of heat and could damage the ship if they were right next to the hull or built inside or something.
This wasn't a Federation ship - it was a J.J. Abrams ship. While Abrams makes fun action films with neat special effects, he has proved with both Star Trek and Star Wars that he either has only the most limited understanding of the franchises, or simply doesn't care. At least with Star Trek, he had the decency to place it in an alternate universe, and was very fortunate to have assembled a good cast good enough to almost make it possible to overlook the myriad ridiculous plot lines and scientific illiteracy. I really wish he could have created some new sci-fi action franchise, rather than desecrating two great ones.
Noah Checkman A FEW? A cadet, who was under arrest, gets promoted to Captain over an experienced Commander? Jumping out of an orbiting spacecraft to a drilling platform? Why not just plant explosives on the cable and let it fall? Instead a proposing something that moronic? Star Trek did not "need" this. Yes - there is a market for fun, low-brow, shoot-em up, special effects driven Sci-fi, and Abrams is good at it. But that is not Star Trek. You might as well remake the Lord of the RIngs, starring a machine gun waving Arnold Schwarzenegger. Sure there is a market for that, but it isn't The Lord of the Rings.
Also kinda weird to claim the weapons are limited when in that same short fight we see this ship completely humble the Constitution Class that was not long ago the most advanced ship star fleet had at the time. Of the opinion we never saw all the weapons used because there was no need to, it had all but disabled the Enterprise on the opening volley.
'Why waste size on a ship if it's meant to be operated by a skeleton crew' Shedloads of more weapons, lots of room in hangar bays for a smaller attack fleet, more capacius warp cores to intercept any ship anywhere, etc...
No, a warship does not need to house a ground force, that's the role of a troop transport or an amphibious assault ship. Most modern warships do not have a ground force aboard since dropping troops off is not their role, their role is to either take out ground targets, protect other ships in the fleet, or attack enemy ships. The same would apply to ship in the Trek verse, no ground troops unless their specific role is to deliver said troops; having troops aboard or just the space for these just in case you wanted to drop troops off is a waste of space and resources. You're dedicating valuable space and resources for something that probably would happen that often and you wouldn't really be able to hold enough troops to make a difference anyhow.
It works both ways really. All starships have transporters so any ship can be a troop carrier if it needs to. But you don't want your large troop carrier to be defenseless so it makes sense if you're gonna put shields and a warp engine onto the ship, you might as well put your heaviest weapons on it too.
The problem with that is it's a waste since most of the time a troop transport isn't going to need heavy weapons, maybe a phaser array or two but not more than that. The more weapons you have the more space and resources devoted to operating and supporting them are needed, space that can be used to house more troops. A troop transport is going to devote as much space as possible to house troops along with all of their gear and equipment; just look at what they did to cruise ships like the Queen Mary during the World Wars, they stripped them bare to make room for troops. State rooms were converted to barracks, dining rooms converted to mess halls, large gathering spaces like casinos and the like were converted into more barracks so that they could crams as many people into them as possible.
little old post but yeah, i cant find anyhing of any schematics or what most of the damn thing is, i would love to know why something that could be run with one person is double the size of a ship that holds 400....
Simply put where would you attack to inflict the most damage? If a ship is that big, as an enemy you are honestly thinking ship is being manned by more than it actually is. So if ship is let's say at 60% damage and is still inflicting insane damage on the enemy, they would most likely say wtf is going on. Pretty sure Vengeance wasn't really going for full kill at first, so we never saw full spread of it's weapons.
Turrets are actually really fast. If you stand on an Abrams and they forget to yell 'clear' before rotating it, it can badly injure your leg. So if we could move that chunky thing at that speed in the 20th century, then I'm sure turrets won't be slow in the 23rd.
Why would it be a large ship? That's like asking why a WWII Battleship is larger than a PT Boat. Maybe it would have something to do with larger engines to produce more power. I.E. To support more weaponry, and stronger shields. Also, why do you assume the name has anything to do with Nero? Starfleet didn't name the ship Vengeance. That would have either been Kahn, for obvious reasons. He always intended to commandeer the ship and gain his Vengeance. Or Admiral Marcus, who possibly had personal reasons due to the Human Klingon/Romulan wars. Marcus was a Section 31 rogue officer, and Kahn was a war criminal. Both of them would have plausible reasons for the name. As for it's weaponry. As it was only ever in one lopsided battle with the Enterprise, (which it effortlessly bested). The only reason it lost the battle was Spock outwitted Kahn. I would not be so quick to assume it was underpowered. Why would it have turreted torpedo launchers? Hell, I don't know. It is a work of fiction after all. But if we are going to crawl down that rabbit hole, maybe so it could have a 360 degree field of fire. And being a work of fiction, it could have had far more under the hood so to speak than was shown in the movie. It's fiction bro, we can go back and forth on this. The point is they wanted to make the ship seem badass. IMHO, they succeeded.
@Aleewood44 Yeah the meeting the enterprise was clearly a shakedown run. Not to mention those giant ass canons that showed up when Marcus was going to destroy the enterprise.
It didn’t pull the enterprise out of warp, it was able to catch up to the enterprise in the same warp tunnel, which is unheard of in Star Trek. Still. Still advanced though.
We used to have a ship called USS Devilfish during world war II. We named them badass names to strike fear so I'm pretty sure that it's reasonable to call something Vengeance after Nero.
how the heck do they even get enough resources to build these without SOMEONE noticing, it's like 5 times bigger than a starfleet ship and i'm certain it can't be easy to hide
Marcus: If I’m not in charge, our entire life is decimated! So if you want me off this ship, you better kill me! Kirk: I’m not, but I could stun you and drag you out of that chair. But I’d rather not do that in front of your daughter.
Gary Cleveland how the fuck has he ruined anything your precious prime timeline is still intact he just made a new more action less sudo science timeline with younger actors so it makes more sense than fucking 60 year olds doing action shit
Unnecessary analysis. The ship is as big as it is because the writers needed to make the ship intimidating, and, at least visually, an impossible obstacle for the heroes of the movie to overcome.
You mean the writers didn't care and threw out some numbers for the enterprise, wich was a lot bigger than the original and the vengeance needed to be much bigger than the Enterprise, so they ended up with a ship that's even bigger than the sovereign class
size dictates available space for equipment (as in su to be fill as per space dock, the bigger the ship the more stuff you can fit in, that's why a Borg cube is sc16 and has 11000su available for use...) the Defiant is a powerful sc5 vessel, but she would struggle against a sc7 vessel such as Prometheus just because of the size difference. Dreadnought-class vessels are way out side of canon .
I feel that the name, Vengeance, was chosen specifically. Remember, Kirk and crew were sent on a mission to literally cause an incident in klingon space. This was a secret mission, one the general population would never probably be aware of, and if they were, it would be written off as some kind of crackpot conspiracy theory in the aftermath of a horrible, seemingly unprovoked attack by the klingons. The Admiral believed war to be inevitable, and he felt it was best to start that war on his own terms, rather than wait for the klingons to attack first. However, he also knew the federation would never go for that, he knew they would only confront the klingons if they started the war, peaceful nation that they were. So in that context it would make sense that the vessel put forth to fight klingons would be named Vengeance. Not only that, but the hull design being an older, rejected thing would make sense too, otherwise it would be difficult to actually hide the fact that it was a huge battleship. Hiding advanced war machines inside a hull that doesn't raise questions sounds like an excellent way to slide your battleship under the radar. Spooky tactics like erasing evidence and killing witnesses don't get you far in the federation, that's tal shiar stuff.
Kirk: Mr Spock, what is your analysis. Spock: Its canon breaking bullshit Captain. The writers and designers didn't even take 5 fucking minutes to make it look more TOS. Its lazy sloppy and ugly. Kirk: Sulu get us the hell out of this terrible retcon, maximum warp. Sulu: Aye sir.
I think that the size of the vessel may be due to extra reactors, weapons and shield generators. Consider the Imperial Star Destroyer. The Dreadnought-class may have been designed to also carry a complement of M.A.C.O. marines for planetside invasion.
For a warship you assume that it doesn't have that "much" weapon capabilities, but forget the dreadnought was facing a ship almost half its size. Thus may not need to use all of its weapon systems.
Poor tactical doctine, if that's the case. If you have weapons, and can use them, _you use them_! Concentration of fire would overwhelm defenses, and result in a faster kill. The _Enterprise_'s real defense was the "friendly scriptwriter"...
It is called Plot armor, the greatest defense ever constructed. Plot Armor has saved the Enterprise and the many ships that bares that names against foes that could and have destroyed similar class ship. Despite the amazing effectiveness of Plot Armor is not without its weaknesses. Its application on more than one ship in the fleet has been less than satisfactory for reasons unknown. Moreover plot armor has been known to fail on more than occasion, leading to dramatics, even heroic sacrifices that causes total destruction of the ship but nonetheless inspires the remaining ships in the fleet to fight even harder. How plot armor works is a mystery that defies quantum probability, and has been suggested to be the work of higher trans-dimensional beings such as the Q.
With the smaller vs larger...one of the things Star Trek doesn't illustrate very well (because the Defiant was protected by Plot Armor) was that larger ships are capable of far greater power output for weapons and defenses. The reason why the Defiant was designed so small and compact was for cost...it's a grim way to look at it, but fighting the Borg usually means heavy, heavy losses. By using a compact ship design and building many of them (which was the original intent), you reduce material loss and loss of crew per ship lost.
conversely Star Trek has well demonstrated that larger vessels suffer from both surface area issues and sensor ghosts created by their warp reactors. Galaxy Class was largely considered a problematic design for such reasons which is why we see the scaling back of the size of the designs even in the Sovereign class with smaller saucers, smaller neck sections between engineering and the saucer (if any). This includes even the Norway and Akira classes. So while you can claim PLOT Armor, we have seen birds of prey, maquis raiders, and dominion attack craft regularly victimizer larger craft due to those reasons.
one solution to the analysis is Khan told Kirk the VENGEANCE wasn't completed yet only about 50% to 75% finished that's why Khan suggested they attack sooner rather than wait
Well it was technically no the Federation, not to mention Star Fleet has always had their darker, military focused side. If it didn't we would have been fucked from the get go by the Xindi lol
The thing is: Star Fleet did not name it Vengeance! It was a secret project by those conspirators and chances are high it was named by that admiral. Discussion about that is moot.
big war ship means you can spread your systems further apart and have multiple redundent backups thus allowing it to take more hits. as for the turrets they are probably meant for orbital bombardment.
There is a reason for the Federation being militarized 1--They recently lost their 2nd most important core world, not to mention the world that probably brought the biggest "pacifist" nature to the Fed. Now that civilization that had previously been heavily involved in all Fed politics consists of a few tens of thousands of refugees trying to establish new colonies. 2--In the (canon) Countdown comics, the Klingons captured the Narada and held it for some time, in all likelyhood they stole some of the advanced tech so now a greatly wounded Fed faces an aggressive militarist adversary that possesses a limited amount of advanced technology that the "original timeline" Klingons did not have. 3--Also, this series of movies is taking place well before the TOS would have started, I think the Enterprise was nearly 20 years old by the time of TOS and in this series the ship is probably closer to 10 years old, hence the Fed isn't that far from the 4 years war / 1st Klingon war (where original Kirk's hero, Garth of Izar became famous) and may not have transitioned back to more peaceful operations as they had in the original series since less time had passed. 4--BTW, one somewhat unbalanced warhawk admiral or general can potentially cause a lot of damage or change to an organization. For example look at MacArthur. If that bastard had his way the Korean war would have escalated into full scale nuclear war, and when Truman fired him, it not only almost ended Truman's presidency, but MacArthur came close to running for the presidency himself, and he might have won. Shit, Julius Ceasar went from a military general to Emperor of Rome, destroying what was at that time the world's only functioning Republic and replacing it with a dictatorship.
Royal Navy has had eight warships called Vengeance, currently HMS Vengeance is a Vanguard-class nuclear ballistic missile submarine. The original Dreadnought-class ships completely changed the design of battleships and is considered the first battleship design of the modern era. The last HMS Dreadnought in service bearing that name was the Royal Navy's first nuclear-powered submarine launched in 1960.
Its an interesting thing to note that HMS Vengeance is one of the Vanguard class Submarines in the Royal Navy. Its a Trident Ballistic Missile platform, looking at the sheer size of the Dreadnought, another RN vessel, its possible this ship was meant for expeditionary warfare or simply mass destruction in retribution as a deterrent.
The Vengeance wasn't even commissoned to be built by the Federation Admiral Marcus had it built in secret behind a moon and he masked the materials he used by saying they were for new ships after the destruction of the new fleet in Star Trek
Also, its big because INTIMIDATION. Not to mention fitting in all sorts of room for a fleet of fighters, more weapon systems, more storage for munitions and power banks, etc.
In the ship's defense It WAS designed by Kahn who probably didn't give a damn for Federation tradition and planned to command the ship himself not Starfleet.
I think that it was named Vengeance because it was meant to avenge the destruction of the Enterprise because Marcus' plan was to cripple the Enterprise in Klingon space and get discovered violating the treaty this would have led to the destruction of the Enterprise. However I think that the Vengeance was meant to be a flagship for the dreadnought fleet, and had flaws included so that they would know what to improve upon already. Plus they said you can operate it with one person. So surely they would've built a secondary bridge in a more strategic location. If they can operate engineering from the bridge in TNG, then they could build a second bridge somewhere else. As for the size, a warship needs to look imposing, the Defiant, although powerful doesn't look scary. I think that the Vengeance is the flagship of the dreadnought fleet but more a command ship than an warship but it also has to be effective in combat. As another commenter as already stated, you could use it as a transport ship as it's massive, like a starship carrier or dropship, we already know it's twice the size of the Enterprise and three times as fast so it could be used to deploy smaller, slower starships into battle before warping away again.
The "Vengence" was not a Federation Vessel per se... It was a fully automated Military Dreadnought Warship, designed and built in secret... Hence, no Naval Construction Contract (NCC) designation...It was built to run on a scant crew, so that the majority of it could be devoted to designing and launching destructive weaponry of all types in order to completely vanquish an advisery, and then (and only then) dictate the terms of the victor, which would translate to enslavement, according to its initial designer, Khan Noonian Singh, whose real intent was to build it for his own use, once his people were returned to him... Remember from the original Star Trek series episode, "Space Seed" that Khan offered ORDER, not FREEDOM!
Thoughts on your video, regarding the name of ship 0:20, it’s clear that Marcus himself was anti federation himself so having a warship named vengeance for his “war” is actually apt. Remember the vengeance was built in secret meaning that the rest of star fleet and the federation most likely didn’t know of his plots. As for the model on his desk showing the evolution of spacecraft 2:00 and shown at 2:30,that was most likely the enterprise being the first of its class and the most advanced ship thus far when pike introduced it in the fist movie. The vengeance itself is based off of the enterprise design wise. As for weapons, remember the advanced long ranged torpedos that Marcus wanted Kirk to fire at the Klingons? That was most likely the torpedo armament for the vengeance. It’s probably why the vengeance was most likely designed for a skeleton crew, so that the radiation could be dispersed safely and securely without damaging the ship. As for primary weapons it was mostly an advanced phaser. All this coupled with the fact that the vengeance had advanced warp capabilities means that yes given the full armament of its weapons, the vengeance is a very fearsome warship indeed. Given its capabilities, its role on a battlefield would be a supporting ship with frontline power. Mainly having frontline ships draw enemy fire while it bombards the enemy into oblivion. Given its hangar I wouldn’t be surprised to see it transport potential troop to the battlefield covertly as the enemy engages with the fleet. It’s pretty obvious that Marcus had plans to make more ships of differing capabilities. Khan just went rogue and shot those plans into hell.
It was actually explained in TNG that [most] Federation ships were named after naval vessels. There is, in fact, a modern day ship named USS Vengeance. As far as the design being impractical, it is likely that the main bridge being attached to the aft section is more practical than the Excelsior Class vessels, which have the bridge atop the ship. From a tactical standpoint, the saucer section could be placed in a geo-sync orbit, and commence with personnel deployment, while the real muscle can remain mobile and combat ready. I have not looked at schematics, but it is likely that the saucer section now carries the Battle Bridge, where a secondary crew would come running during Red Alert. As far as the pivoting torpedo launchers, remember, the Vengeance is designed to fight other warships. The defiant was meant to take on The Borg. Larger launcher, larger torpedoes. It may be designed to fire at ground-based targets as well. Just the same, it may have also been designed to be self-contained. I wonder if it has its own propulsion systems?
Maybe as you say it was an exploration ship, designed as the next step up, similarly to the Excelsior compare to the Prime Constitution, then that project was scrapped and the left over hull was used to make the dreadnought. Also, villains often like to show off with their weapons, even if it makes no sense, and this ship is the ultimate in showing off.
There were six versions of the HMS Vengeance in the British Navy, and there was a USS Vengeance in the American Navy in the First Barbary Coast War. The U. S. Ship was meant to inspire fear and awe among the Barbary Coast pirates, and it did its job so well that it was never fired upon and was broken up 13 years after its introduction in the New York shipyards. Was captained by Lieutenant William Lewis. The French also had a frigate, La Vengeance. So it's not uncommon.
Gotta love RU-vid feeding you random Star Trek content when you never asked it to. 4:10 Buzzard collectors? It's bussard collectors (boo-sard) named after the famous astrophysicist Robert Bussard. Pretty sure he'd take issue with people naming him after a scavenging bird.
Interesting detail: It has (huge!) escape pods, very much reminiscent of the Enterprise-E escape pods. ...And no way to get to them quickly from the bridge.
According to the Original Star Fleet Technical Manual, There were ships Called the USS Dominion (NCC-2115), USS Star Empire(NCC-2116), and USS Lucifer(NCC-521)... I don't see USS Vengeance being too far out of the range... Yes I know I am a couple years late to the party...
+MrAlasalle First of all, you have to get a clue regarding the 'designations' Dreadnaught is the heaviest armed and powerful vessel. Enterprise is a Heavy Cruiser which is better than the Miranda Class Light Cruiser or Loknar Class Frigate. Each is less powerful than the next. the Explorer class was the Galaxy Class Cruiser- Deep Space Explorer...Hence why it was the class which included families aboard because the vessel was not to make it back to Earth that often. The other reason why the Starbases and Deep Space stations were in existence. Frontier outpost/ repair and restocking as well as recreation.
+MrAlasalle Hate to break it to you but the constitution class IS a general purpose, exploration multi role cruiser designed to be a multi role ship and served as the backbone of Starfleet in many roles including science and exploration for several generations.
Just as a fun aside, during the development of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in the 90's, a navy enlisted man walked into an office where they had a poster of what appeared to be a new hornet design on the wall, most notably with the squared intakes of the Super Hornet. He asked if that was the super hornet and received the 3rd degree from the officer for discussing classified projects so openly. The officer was embarrassed when it was pointed out the enlisted man was simply asking about a giant ass poster on the wall behind the officer.
There's an old Star Trek novel called "Dreadnought. The ship in that book looks like an up-sized Constitution class with a third nacelle, triple shielding, and a huge number of phasers and torpedoes. It also was built on the sly for a small crew and is stolen from the Federation.
Reading to much into it, it a section 31 project for a war with the Klingon empire name purely about getting revenge on the Klingon who star fleet have engaged several times. The command at this time wanted a vessel to kick as and remove the Klingon threat. This was clearly layer out in the story line. Also star fleet is a different organisation since the loss of the Kelvin they have taken longer to develop vessels making them bigger and more robust. This vessel vengeance was a s31 war machine who primary task was to take on the enemies of the federation.
One thing to bear in mind is the enormous cannons we never saw fired. I'm doubtful that they would bed torpedo launchers, and bore more of a resemblance to gauss guns capable of eradicating large chunks of planets. Also, it probably needs a LOT of energy and processing to use weapons at warp speed. I'm pretty sure those weapons on the secondary hull were not mere phasers and photon torpedo launchers. Of course all of this is speculation, but at least somewhat reasoned.
The reason she was named “Vengeance” is that stare trek as a tv franchise has always used real and almost appropriate ship names, continuing the navel tradition of naming a ship after a decommissioned relative (be it by its role or place of origin). The writers of the shows have had some leeway in names as they have had hundreds of years to come up with some more famous people, places and events to name ships after but still they carry on the tradition including real historic ship, including The defiant, voyager and enterprise. So given the nature or the “vengeance’s” combat vessel status it is perfectly named given the ship pedigree, if not the general feel of stat fleet as an organization, although as has been stated it was constructed as a covert war ship by a militarized branch of star fleet I feel it still fits. As a navel engineer I hope this helps clear up the issue.
I actually really like the design of the Dreadnought class, other than the size (the size should have been about the size of the Kelvin, or at max as big as Enterprise). Except for the cargo bay door, that can be much, much bigger! The bridge location/ cutout i don't think is a problem because the bridge is still on top of that wedge section of the primary hull and so is occluded completely from the under side. So in that respect it is no different to any of the other ships, in fact the "exposed" location of the bridge on the alternate time line ships makes way more sense than the prime ships because the view screen is a window, albeit, augmented with screen functionality, but if the main display fails, you can always rely on the mk. 1 eyeball. The weapons locations more sense, given the ships function. Exploration ships use Phasor banks more as point defense turrets than as offensive weapons, and there is no reason to believe that the Dreadnought class doesn't also have these, but having increased forward firepower by putting additional weapons on the secondary hull makes sense. Also the cut out, more generally makes sense if you consider that the saucer section is usually the location of the crew accommodation and all the science and research labs in most star ships, but given the Vengeance's focus and small crew, much of this would be wasted. The rim is still useful to house phasor banks, shield generators, thrusters and the reduced crew quarters, but by removing the center section you're removing a bunch of dead space/weight. Relative to the saucer, the engineering hull is also over-sized to provide room for a larger power plant; though is truncated because it doesn't require such a large hanger. Also, I generally like how the design proportions reminds me of the Galaxy class, only with better proportioned warp nacelles.
It's funny, because on the last image you show of it, two panels can be seen mirrored on each side of the underside of the saucer. Considering its function, it could be assumed that these are either stowed, or as-yet uninstalled mountings for 360 degree swiveling phaser cannons, which would mean that the Vengeance actually sports a crushing 10 forward facing weapons spread, and if my suspicion is correct, and those unused mountings are for phaser cannons, then they either have a 180 or 360 degree firing arc, meaning that it does cover its rear and top just fine, and it can also be assumed that like every other federation ship with that hull pattern, the Vengeance has at least one rearward facing photon torpedo launcer, if not several.
Vengeance is outside of Starfleet norms, but so was that ship, a warship, which Starfleet didn't tend to build either. It was a secret ship built by a deranged Admiral. They named their ships all sorts of things. Starfleet had a ship named Agamemnon which I'm sure has no real meaning. There's a USS Excalibur which sounds rather more hostile than friendly. As for it's size, I can say it could be for any number of reasons, including weaponry, and shields, and the power needed to facilitate these weapons. They may have had to build around the weaponry and it ended up quite large. The more powerful vessels in Star Trek are often represented by titanic vessels outside of Defiant.
I am forest to agree with you. This is a week version of a war ship. Also it should be noted. All Dreadnought class ships should have 3 nucelles. Providing the extra power they would need for higher warp speeds.
To be fair about those torpedo turrets, torpedoes are supposed to be self guiding (homing), so they only really need to be fired in the target's general direction. Actually in theory they don't even need to be fired in the right direction as long as the target's close enough.
What we seem to have here is a popular misunderstanding of what a dreadnaught class battleship is. A dreadnaught class battleship is not a more heavily armed battleship, traditionally a dreadnaught is a more heavily armoured version of a battleship, built to take the kind of battering that would leave a normal battleship either running away or sinking, however some did have larger more powerful guns but only because the platform could take them, like the yamato during world war 2, one of the last dreadnaught ever built, but like I said they were really built to hang in a fight longer than a normal battleship, the armour was such that most shots fired at it would do minimal damage if any based on the guns currently in use at the time of the design and building. So to rip into vengeance because it's a dreadnaught and it wasn't armed to the teeth with weapons on every inch is a bit silly as that is not what a dreadnaught is. Ships that usually are armed in such a way are destroyers and cruisers, in the star trek universe that's why we get the defiant it's weaponry, which can out perform any Starfleet cruiser and as nimble as a fighter. Heavy cruisers like the enterprise e, large powerful weapons on a more heavily armoured, better protected parts of the ship that enable it to stay in a fight longer than a normal cruiser. You have to understand what the actual class of ship is before you make a pathetic video showing your lack of understanding lol
"Vengeance" was a name to impress the brass. Also, this is a JJ Abrahams mentality. Also, before I go, federation ships are ass kickers. I never got the feeling that the federation starships were technologically inferior. I thought the Vulcans were sheparding the human race with technology. The Romulans were handing tech to the Klingons.
Look up the book Dreadnaught! by Diane Carey. It came out in May of 1986.There is also a sequal book called Battlestations. Dreadnaught has a ship called the Star Empire in it. It is larger than a Constitution class ship, and has 3 warp nacells, along with several other top secret innovations. The Dreadnaught class is also listed in the old Star Trek book that I think is called the Star Trek Technical Manual. It has 'blueprints' of EVERY class of vessel in the Original Series included in it. The two books introduce several new characters, including a young Vulcan, who has a penchant for developing new weapons, to his despair. Also introduced is Piper, a red headed female younger version of Kirk in his younger days. Look them up. All of this and more came from Star Trek: The Original Series books. A vastly expanded universe that is just there for you to experience! I have about 30 or so of the ST books myself, including a series that includes ALL of the series from ST to Voyager. It is a series that has one book for each series, but covers all of the timelines dealing with the same problem. Very good! But this ship is very good, though I also question the open space around the bridge area. Strange. Look up the books that I mentioned, if you haven't read them. I think that you will enjoy them! And the design is not new. It was around in the 1970's.
Euhm... You have not seen other movies either did you? There are multiple dreadnoughts on the federation side, all were created in secret by Section 31. Yes, even the Galaxy X is a example of that. I own the STO version of this ship, really love it. I however did notice a lot of details that you missed to mention, or likely even knew about. - The deflector has 2 large armored doors that can close in combat mode. - The ship has combat attack drones, in the game a total of 6 can be launched. I however believe that this ship may also partially serve as carrier being able to launch a lot more in the actual movies. - The ship is so heavily armored that it would be hard for even a Galaxy class ship to penetrate the hull. - Just like in STO, the ship is able to cloak - The ship has fast firing boardside torpedo launchers, similar to the Thunderchild's Point Defense System yet a lot more powerful. - The main weapons are Phaser Emitter Arrays and work similar to cannons, but are actually beam weapons instead that shoot short bursts instead of the long regular phaser array systems - There are doors on the backside of the saucer, which basically is the top side (rear) of the neck. All similar style ships including the connie have this - On the top and bottom of the saucer are 2 red dots behind the bridge section (4 in total). These serve as mining beams and tractor beams depending on what you need them for. (Echoes of light mission will show this clearly) - This dreadnought is so huge that it dwarfs even well known ship classes, such as the Galaxy, Borg Sphere, and even command battlecruisers. It is in the same size range as Herald cruisers and dreadnoughts.
For the name, actually it is not much different from actual names used in Star Trek. Many ships are named after water bound navy ships from the past or city names, countries, etc. This also applies to the Vengeance class, some examples: Vengeance-class frigate 1793-1814 Operators: French and Royal Navies en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance-class_frigate HMS Vengeance (Canopus class, 1899) Royal Navy pre-dreadnought battleship en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(1899) HMS Vengeance (R71) (Colossus class WW2 carrier) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(R71) HMS Vengeance (S31) (Vanguard-class submarine) Currently in service en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(S31) Longer wikipedia list of ships classes that used this name: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance After seeing this list, you can see where I base my facts on why the ship name is NOT false or wrong for the ST universe. Also why it has the features that it does, carrier capabilities (carrier history), cloak (current submarine), frigate history (far past) and even the dreadnought part can be verified by the 1988 ship version. This meaning your rant about the name and the ship itself are very misinformed to say the least.
Where the heck to you get the notion that the Galaxy-X is a Section 31 vessel? They aren't the only people who would ever possibly develop an interest in bigger weaponry. "Needs must as the devil drives."
Austin Lassiter I can agree with you there. It'd probably come with multiple Phaser Emitter Arrays (as opposed to beam arrays, similar to the Vaadwaur Polaron counterparts) that would fire as long, red, arcing shots (longer than cannons, but not quite beams either). I can't quite imagine what it's game-play attributes would be. Though the torpedo drones that the Vengeance had are actually available on the Federation Battlecruiser (Avenger) in the C-Store. I've never tried the ship, but have contemplated getting it.
+Revkor dont worry about the gameplay.... its allready ruined with all that broken sh!t bugs useable exploits and zahl hacks...next to OP neutro and quantum phasic torps... if its the vengence or a T6 scimitar it dosnt matter
The name Vengeance sounds dark and combined with it's size and coloring is ment to be intimidating. It is loudly signaling "don't f**k with me" to any romulan, Klingon ect. that it comes across. As for weapons, the movie did not clarify weather all weapons were used. There very well could be more weapons than shown
They did have a Dreadnaught class in Star Trek TOS, exactly the same design as the Enterprise heavy cruiser but with a 3rd nacelle directly behind the saucer section.
the idea of the bridge is to maneuver the ship within good VISUAL range. Just in case the captain wants to parallel park it. However Ops or CC (Command Control) for warfare is indeed deep within the vessel. Just saying, since Lord knows what's the original startrek writers were thinking.
What if the bridge placement was for a better field of view? After all, it is a flagship. The size could have been for fighters or boarding parties and supplies. As for those big ass torpedo cannons, they could have been for planetary bombardment or for destroying ships larger than itself, its just that the enterprise was standing still for them to use it, and they wanted to decimate the enterprise really badly. They were also taking on a ship weaker than them, so they didn't need to use all their extra weapons. It was black probably to blend in with space, so enemies would have trouble tracking them. The ship is dimly lit so the crew can see space better. The satanic look is probably just extra armor designed in a way to absorb heat from lasers and to instill a sense of intimidation in the enemy.
The name Vengeance is perfect for JJ Abrahams, Star Trek. JJ changed Star Trek from it's original timeline that Gene and Eric did with ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.
On the bridge exposure: Remember, this was designed by Khan. He lacks the ability for three-dimensional thinking, so he probably thought placing the bridge inside the saucer would turn the saucer into a "shield" for the bridge.
Marcus at the time was insane, a pure psychopathic personality, so putting the model is in keep with that insane personality. Because crazy people say and do crazy things thinking they are completely sane words and action. In other words, they say and do crazy things in the open; that is the best example of what crazy is.
Forgivable elements of Vengeance's design: *name itself.* Wet-navy ships often have names that would be considered too "dark" for StarFleet. _Avenger._ (Which old-school fans will recall was the original class name given to _Reliant._ ) _Retribution._ etc. And this IS Section 31, not main-line StarFleet. *desk model vs. secrecy.* A great number of Hot Wheels toy cars are based on prototype or custom concept vehicles that get designed, maybe crafted as full size mockups, and shown at auto shows. Able to move under their own power but not much else. The desk model could be explained away as a hypothetical concept that was designed but never built. You understand that even fictional universes have their own fictions, for personal entertainment of the characters inhabiting it, within them, right? *crew.* Even back in TOS movie era it was demonstrated that five mutineers (Kirk & co.) could operate a frickin' _Connie,_ care of automation. Why would that trend not continue? Also, how many times has a hero ship been rushed out of drydock or where-ever, to face some deadly extinction-level event? Why is it so impossible to believe that the _villains_ could be likewise surprised, and be forced to launch ahead of schedule with less-than-full staffing?!
OK, I'll play along: 2 Thoughts: I definitely go with the theory that Dreadnought was Starfleet's newest design idea, akin to the Galaxy Class. Since the model was on Admiral Robocop's desk I would assume the design had in fact been green light and was possibly even a big PR deal of a project. Sort of the Titanic of it's time. As we see there was a MASSIVE shipyard with thousands of people constructing it and a huge line of shuttles delivering cargo. This was a HUGE project. I assume that everyone in Starfleet and the Federation knew this ship was under construction. One the hull, engines and basic parts were made Admiral RC basically ijacked the final stages of the project into a black budget project for reasons of security. That is when he installed all the weapons and automated control systems, and crewed the ship with black budget private security. Now the flaws in the designs from the fact that Khan, while brilliant was still 200 years behind the times in starship design.
Even though they never were seen in the show the federation did have a dreadnought class with 3 nacelles. In some of the rpg games there was even battleship class. Mars class and federation class. Look them up
i think the vengance wasnt completly finished because it started from the secret Station wherer it was Build. it even wasnt fully manned. i think the vangance is a real threat to all of its enemys but wasnt fully equipped
Remember Vengeance isn't really part of the federation, but of section 31. Even if it was part of the federation, it's not unusual to name more bad ass ships more mean names. One example would be the Defiant.
Although past TOS dreadnoughts, have had a third warp nacelle located atop the saucer section to provide additional power and should the ship separate, escape power as well.. This design kind of leaves that out..
The only way the vengeance makes sense is as an aircraft carrier. The huge engineering section would house a larger flight deck and the larger saucer could hold pilots and crew of the smaller vessels. Maybe a troop transport vessel as well that could land huge ground assault units, but with transporter technology this idea makes little sense. You don’t take your family to war with you so the enlarged saucer section doesn’t make sense otherwise like it did for the Galaxy class which was designed to explore the Galaxy as a self-contained ecosystem. This is especially true when you learn the ship can be run with so few people.
I like your analysis, and though I personally don't like the look of the Vengeance, your reasoning makes sense and your problems with it I agree with 100%. Please make more videos like this!
A Dreadnaught Class vessel is not supposed to be a fighter type of ship. It's a tanking ship, it is supposed to take a huge amount of damage and keep operating. The bridge I would assume make use of shielding and armor to protect it and most likely is placed where it is on the Vengence to distract the enemy. To be most effective a Dreadnaught would need support ships and they would distract the attacking vessel so it could use heavy weapons. And those were not torpedo launchers, those were heavy phaser cannons. Can't use torpedos at warp, and why use a torpedo when the phasers can penetrate the armor easily. And maybe it was created without torpedo launchers, which is odd, but it may have had redundant power so it can keep weapons and shields on at all times. And it would have killed the plot if the ship survived.
True, the name Dreadnought on JJ's version of ST certainly did not give it justice, Dreadnought Class are Special Battleships that are built for total war and maximum damage at the cost of speed. Dreadnoughts Class should have more arrays of smaller weapons and massive cannons for the primary main weapons with extra armor plating to reinforce the hull and rigid frame to last the battle and still operate even in gruesome situations. Aside from the heavy armor platings, the USS Vengeance's lack of primary and secondary Phaser Cannons and Pulse Emitters certainly didn't give it the meaning of an Dreadnought Battleship aside from its massive size.
On the bridges-at-the-top-of-the-ship thing, Andrew Probert gave an interview some years ago where he told a story from back in the days of working on TNG which addressed that issue. Or, rather, he _attempted_ to address the issue, back then, but was overruled by Gene Roddenberry. I find Roddenberry's reasoning to be particularly illuminating, because it shows how innately he understood the fact that production design for Star Trek really has to serve _two_ masters - the practical considerations of the fictional universe is one, of course, but there's also the viewing audience of the entertainment work in which that universe is contained. Sometimes, things that may not make perfect sense from one of those perspectives are completely logical from the other. In fact, from the right perspective, even seemingly foolish things can actually be kind of genius. For example, Probert explained: "[W]hen I presented my final design for the Enterprise [NCC-1701D], I thought that the bridge should be at the center of the saucer, because that would be the most protective part of the saucer, and it was the center of command, so it should be easily reachable from all parts of the saucer. [...Roddenberry instructed] that I put the bridge back on top of the saucer, because he felt that's where it belonged, but also because its shape and size get people understanding actually how big the ship was, in that basis comparison."
