Dune: Paul Atreides is NOT a Hero 

Agree 100%. The story of Paul Atreides is absolutely NOT a hero's journey; his story, continued through that of his son, Leto II, is a cautionary tale. Something to be avoided, not emulated. 🤷‍♂️ Both Paul and Leto II were well aware of the message their lives conveyed, but Paul did not have the courage to step fully into the role. Leto II did, knowing full well it encompassed his eventual and unavoidable destruction, in order to teach an enduring lesson to all of Humanity; one that would resonate in their DNA throughout all of Time, and in the process make it impossible to annihilate or control Mankind in its entirety ever again.

Paul's got more in common with Anakin it seems

You fell off. Just kidding. 😅😂❤

And another minor one. Luke flies with Red Squadron against the Death Star, not Rogue Squadron. The Rogues don't show up until ESB. Great video!

Brilliant. I listened to the 1969 interview of Herbert by McNelly but your explanation is much clearer. I have three questions, I hope you will give your opinion: - Don't you think that the question of Paul being a hero or not is clouded by the definition of what is a hero ? In many discussions lately after the release of Dune : part 2, I think many people are thinking : if Paul is not Superman, then he is Space Hitler. - Is there really any document where Herbert actually explains that he was disappointed with how people undesrtood Dune, thus he wrote Dune Messiah to correct things ? In all the interview I have found of him on YT, he seemed to say the opposite, that he wrote Dune and Dune Messiah (and Children) as essentially one book, with deliberately distinct tones, this corresponding to his quote "the difference between a hero and an anti-hero is where you end the story". - Do you think that the nature of the jihad as a profund species need, a primal, biological pulsion, being not easy to adapt on screen, leaves the audience with the impression that the jihad is just a "mere" holy war, and so something that can only be decided deliberately, whereas the book underlines its collecive, unconscious nature and the total futility of resisting it ? Once more thanks for the video, eager to view more !

I disagree. Paul is not an anti hero

The anti-hero is often recognized in modern media, but rarely defined. As such, the archetype must be given a proper definition in order to understand how Paul Atreides both emulates and breaks this type. The Anti-hero archetype is characterized primarily by their personal agenda, their relation to society, and of lack of guiding principles. For Paul Atreides, he is similar to the archetype due to acting on opportunity rather than morals, but unlike the archetype in his leadership role in society, and blended beliefs which are both adopted and formed by his own wit. While Frank Herbert’s character draws on many similarities to the Anti-hero, he is more closely identified with the Tyrant Hero archetype and ultimately fails to fulfill the anti-hero archetype. First, it is important to recognize how Paul Atreides is unlike the anti-hero archetype. According to the Dictionary of Literary Themes and Motifs A - J, “the anti-hero is always a displaced person and, in relation to society, infracostal. His self-centeredness makes him not only unheroic but anti-heroic.” Throughout the novel Paul is precisely the opposite of displaced, instead he frequently recognizes his position in relation to others, such as being a Ducal son, Potential Kwisatz Haderach, and Lisan al-Gaib to name a few. Although after the Harkonnen attack, Paul considers himself a freak, he soon comes to terms with the duty of being the inherited duke. Traditionally the anti-hero won’t have a role to play. Additionally, while Paul may indeed be considered self-centered, it is not without great regard for those close to him leaving little room for him to be neatly considered an anti-hero. Second, Paul’s beliefs are a combination of that which is shared with him, and through a series of quotes. The quotes in question are recorded by Princess Irulian as though Dune was written as a history and are found at the beginning of each chapter, sometimes containing relevance for the narrative at hand. Paul’s beliefs are neither exclusively his own as would be the case of a true anti-hero, instead, they are an amalgamation of his Atreides, Bene Gesserit, and Fremen cultural ideals. This can be seen in his recantation of the Bene-Gesserit fear liturgy, following the Fremen's desert life, and respecting his father’s legacy. It would be more appropriate to say that Paul used these beliefs to coerce these factions to his own agenda. So, while he does not neatly fit into the standard depiction of an anti-hero, his more unique ideology can be considered comparable. Lastly, the strongest point of similarity between Paul and the anti-hero archetype is his disregard for principles. Unlike a traditional hero which would adhere to a set of cultural beliefs, Paul constantly operates on the basis of opportunity and the needs of the situation. The greatest example of this can be found in Paul’s seizing the Emperor’s throne. Early on, Paul suggests the potential reality that he marries the princess in order to enter the royal line. By the end, when Paul has the Emperor and Harkonnens at his mercy, he seizes this chance and becomes Emperor. There is no indication that this is an Atreides principle that he is abiding by, but is at best atoning for the wrath of his enemies by taking utter revenge by usurping the throne. For further consideration, Paul quickly adopts the title of Muad’dib to gain status among the Fremen, and by the end completely succumbs to the jihad he by principle had intended to stop. By seizing power and choosing opportunities over principle, Paul’s decision-making can indeed be likened to that of the anti-hero. So, while previously established, Paul Atreides neatly follows the Hero’s Journey archetype, it is also often that he could be misunderstood as an anti-hero. This is largely due to his lack of principles, and opportunistic outlook on life which led to his eventual ascension to Emperor of the galaxy. Paul is not an anti-hero due to his belief system, which is both personal yet influenced heavily by his Bene-Gesserit and Atreides upbringing. Finally, he may be misunderstood as an anti-hero archetype due to his somewhat unique position in relation to society, but he, unlike a true anti-hero, is not anti-social. Rather, Paul utilizes his status and social sway for the furthering of his gains rather than retaining isolation.

@@colbyentzminger217 why do you say "his lack of principles" in the same breath as "his belief system", so which is it? BTW, what gain did he have as Emperor? Paul did NOT want to lose his humanity as the Worm Emperor, as his son eventually did... So was Paul a success or failure

@@chasx7062 I am saying his belief systems to not make him an anti-hero. His beliefs were an amalgamation of the Fremen, Bene-Gesserit, and Atreides beliefs along with his own opportunistic personality. What did he gain as emperor? I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here, classifying him as exclusively a success or failure seems limiting and would strip the nuance of his fate.

@@colbyentzminger217 well what further wealth, prestige, women, slaves did he gain by becoming emperor? Or did he lose 3 x children to the fate that he did not even want? Paul is the tragic hero, eodipus like, something like Tolkien's Hurin and his children.

This guy and Disparu have some of the best one-liners. "Are you thirsty? Here's a Red Bull, it'll give you wings so you can piss off."

I'll have to mod it a bit... "Since you like getting around, in more ways than one, can you just... FUCK. RIGHT. *OFF?!"* I'm willing to donate for your bicycle wheel replacement! She: I don't have a bicycle! Don't explain the joke, just take the currency and run like the gag you are...

​@@AJadedLizardI remember that one! And HOW he almost died to the Robyn Hood CONDOM JAR REVEAL... XD

Veep has the best insults

13:49 XD

Excellently put.

Yeah. He's a tragic hero in that regard. Trying to avoid a horrific fate

"I don't care what you believe, I beleive!" Villeneuve's script captures it well with this line from Stilgar. The people want a messiah to lead them in a "holy" war in something simple and straightforward like" killing the bad people". They don't want a messiah to lead them in a holy war against the evil of the heart by doing something complicated like internal discipline, compassion and mercy. In the end Paul had no choice because the evil in people's hearts will the destiny to be.

4000 years worth of atrocities

Thinking upon Leto II..."No. There is another."

Yeah also consider the sand, its rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere

@@piotr78Hahahaha… what an original joke. Comedy king! Do you guys have a compulsion to quote the same lines over and over whenever you see a prequel reference? SO not funny after seeing this for the 2 millionth time. 😒

@@LilacSreyaLet people have fun please.

@@LilacSreya It's my first time ever quoting the lines AND I think it was actually pretty well implemented here with dune being all sandy and all that!

@@piotr78It was funny don’t worry

There's 2 things. First, Herbert himself recognised there was a problem with his depiction of Paul in the first book when he learned most people considered Paul the hero and were siding with him (thus he made it way clearer in the following books that he's not the hero). Secondly, when you are watching 6h of movie, you need to be somewhat on the side of the main character, or on the side of someone close to him, otherwise it will make for a shitty quarter of a day watching only people you don't side with (you need someone to side with to be interested by the stakes of the story, if nobody in the story feels appealing to you then why care about whatever happens to anyone if the story ?).

@@dearcastiel4667 Completely agreed. I've never needed a character to be the hero in order to side with them, but I understand that many people do. In fact, I think it's more the promotion for this film that tries to sell the hero trope, precisely because it's something so well known that always attracts an audience. The film itself is IMO a very good adaptation, but the promotion seems slightly misleading in that sense.

Except he is a Hero in the First book. Heerbert had to Write messiah because he had cocked up.

​@@devildolphin2102Please actually read the book.

​@@devildolphin2102way to miss the entire point 💀

Atreides literally means, "of the line of Agamemnon".

Paul and the bad guy (forgot his name) are direct cousins. Bene Gesserit forces intermarriage and ince** in the bloodline in theie Kwisatz Haderach project.

Feyd Rautha and Paul are cousins.

Idk ask the Bene Gezzerit lol

Pretty common with aristocracy

Yep yep. Before taking the Water of Life, he was scared of the jihad and hoped to avoid it. After taking the Water and glimpsing the Golden Path, he understands the necessity of the jihad.

You would think that The Golden Path would have made a far more interesting route for humanity rather than a SECOND Jihad. We already were crippled by AI. Now we have a group of cultists killing us with guns and steel, with the expressed purpose of glorious revolution. Change sure is good!

No, Paul walks away from the Golden path you're mixing him up with Leto. Paul was not guided by this goddess, Herbert never mentions this at all. Paul makes the death of humanity more likely, its his son that goes on the golden path. And Leto's golden path involves teaching humanity to never trust leaders like Paul or Leto again.

So why continue the empire which must always be doomed since nobody can control an entire Galaxy. Especially when you have no computers and rely on space junkies eating giant worm shite for transport.

One could even argue that Paul tried to be as heroic as he could, and though he failed, set his son, Leto II, up to become the true hero of the Golden Path. Since Paul couldn't go through with the necessary steps toward the Golden Path that he forsaw because he felt they would be too monstrous, and he knew his son (having been born of exceedingly strange circumstance) could.

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In the movie, he said that he saw different paths.

in the book doesn't he also see a future with no jihad but he'd have to make peace with the barron and he wants to avenge his father instead

Doesn't he not see the "horrific alternative" until after the book? Fairly certain that in Messiah he's thinking about his visions and says he's since seen worse things than the jihad after becoming Emperor.

...and ironically, he still becomes the leader of a devastating holy war and founds the most tyrannical dynasty in history anyway.

The first Dune novel is one big extended call to action. The emperor's summons to arrakis is NOT the call. Paul's prescient vision of what would later be known as the Golden Path is the call to action. We never get to know thst vision until much later in the series, but THAT is the call to which Paul says NO.

It’s in the pinned comment.

Forgive me, but it's "scot-free". Lowercase "s", one "t" and a hyphen.

Yes, the memories of Paul and Chani protect Leto II and Ghanima.

Alia really got it the worst, she was a proper tragic tale.

A 6 to 7 and 8-hour review would suffice

Given this is just 1/3rd of the introduction, I’d say 5 hours is probably about right.

@@LostChord Not enough

@@LostChord God bless the long Great work!

​@@LostChordI'm really glad to hear this. Love your videos

yet you’d be surprised how so many still don’t understand this today due to a lack of media literacy.

Remember the uproar about Paul being yet another white savior? 50 years ain’t been long enough.

Dune 1 and Dune 2 show him being a hero, but very quietly tell you he is a villain. His big "evil" moment was yelling at the fremen and claiming to be the chosen one before leading them to victory over clearly evil enemies.

I don't understand this take. Paul is literally hero by almost every definition of the word. He is noble, courageous, he's admired by trillions of people, worshipped even. If fate had offered him better choices, we have no reason to think he wouldn't have taken those better options. His only failings are deeply human ones, like not being willing to sacrifice himself and his loved ones to avoid the deaths of others, or shying away from hard decisions to give himself more time with his spouse. Hes a shitty father and brother, and a bit of a coward in some hyper trolley problem existential fate of mankind type decision making, and ultimately that foists the sacrifice and work of finishing the job of saving humanity itself on to his children. Do you people just think "hero" is synonymous with "black and white morality good guy?"@@thomasnelon5422

Paul is The Hero, on crack and steroids. But in the real world there never was a good hero. It's not that Paul isn't a hero - he's the best hero ever - it's that the whole concept is fucked up, myths and fantasy are for morons and babies. It's a mockery, a parody of childish worldviews and cloistered naivete.

He didn't restore his family's dynasty, he fucked over humanity and his son had the balls to do what his revenge drunken father couldn't do, and that was to ensure humanity prevails. Paul was a failed hero, his son finished what he ran from

@@athenaxbut his son wouldn’t of existed if Paul didn’t follow his own path.

Even so it's more compelling than *anything* Tinseltown produced churned out for the last 5 years.

No, your getting the message wrong, Paul is the hero in every classical sense of the word, however the book makes it clear that this is the most dangerous kind of person, as their actions become magnified by the movement that pops up around them and as they are simultaneously deified and dehumanised, the movement inevitably falls out of their hands, no longer able to steer the movement it rapidly transforms into the worst form of it’s self. Dune is a hero’s story, but one that looks at the reality of heroes, and criticises our worship of heroes.

Well she is a "Skywalker" now, and she'll be starting up the old Moisture Farm too I bet.

If you don’t count Andor. And Prey (mid). And House of the Dragon. And The Batman (also mid).

​@@LostChordIn his (somewhat lackadaisical) defense, your verbal takedowns are absolutely legendary. I intentionally stay sober for those; videos like these, I can comfortably relax amid the dying screams of my few remaining brain cells. 🥲

But honestly, how much in the past decade has actually been GOOD? The opportunities to break down a great piece of work are not frequent.

@@Kyle-sr6jm Prey got a 94% / 77% from critics (DEI) and audiences but he considers it mid. The Batman receive 85% / 87% but he also considers it mid. Perhaps he's using a different definition of mid than most people.

You do know he's talking about Dune, which is not now, and will never be, by any measure, good?

But My Media literacy! Lol

Hercules does many heroic things. However, he does them to atone for murdering his wife and children. And after he does those heroic things, he murders his next wife and children - a fact the myths often gloss over. A heroic action doesn’t make you a heroic person.

@@FortheSakeoftheComments If people see you as the hero, you are a hero. It is what it is. That is the major takeaway from Dune that Paul is a hero, the people have decided. No amount of attempts to circumvent this by media and or alleged claims of writers will change anything. The writer going "well actually" and trying to undo what cannot be done is an exercise in failure.... For the father, nothing!

@@spencerwilliams461 I never saw him as a hero. Why is your impression more valid than mine? Especially since the FREAKING AUTHOR agrees with me? I can’t believe this is even an argument.

@@FortheSakeoftheCommentshow is he not a hero? By Dune alone, imagine not having access to Dune messiah and everything after just like when it came out in 1965, what speaks that he isn’t one? He’s the product of hundreds of years of forced breeding to make the ultimate being, his family gets killed by the emperor- whom saw his family getting too strong- and a traitorous cousin. He unlocks his ability to see the future and realizes the least worst future to not only get revenge for his destroyed people and empire, but to also free and liberate the Fremen whose planet was stolen and oppressed from them by the harkonnen. He actively avoids the worst possible future because he doesn’t want to see innocent people killed. He even secures his place among the Fremen, falls in love and becomes a great leader as both husband, brother, son, and Fremen that helps actively kill oppressive and torturous Harkonnen/Sardaukar. Then to finally take the throne to secure his place to stop the Bene Gesserit and House treachery/corruption in the galaxy, all while sparing the emperor mercy and still keeping his wife. ALSO all in the name of him and his family name: Atreides. And even memorializes his dad that he looked up to, loved, and did all these actions almost as a way to honor his premature death to villains. Is it the revenge? Is it because he followed the prescience? Is it because he led the Fremen as a Messiah? Is it the possibility of Jihad? The story doesn’t give much options for him to not follow his destiny, and implies that he should’ve died in the Jamis fight to prevent the Jihad. But then the Harkonnens would’ve still oppressed and tortured the millions of Fremen that lived there so…? I’m genuinely curious and want to see/hear a different perspective. There’s also no mention of the golden path in Dune, having just read it two weeks ago, so I don’t expect to see that as an answer since it doesn’t get mentioned until Children of Dune.

The way you phrase it makes it seem like Hitler did something good. And I don't mean that his actions lead to people being better, by realising how evil he was.

You clearly took the wrong lesson from Dune then.

​@@Gustav_Kuriga You clearly don't have a counterargument to make, otherwise you'd explain why my post is wrong instead of merely stating that it is.

He didn't want people to hate Paul. That's not the point. The point of Paul Atreides is tragedy. He's supposed to be more like Oedipus rather than either Antigone or Faust. He sees the future and becomes caught up in it despite his foreknowledge. He sees the great evil that will be done, but tries to guide it to at least achieve a longer lasting good that no one living will see.

Meanwhile the most known characters on earth Jeus Christ ,Santa Cluas and Mario are all perfect beings that people try to write flaws into... Kinda comes off as fan fiction and I "fixed your stuff" when they do. So yes I and a few can it's just stupid hard to.

@@GreenBlueWalkthroughWhat flaws can Mario have without reducing him to Luigi?

Villain protagonists are a thing. Protagonist is just the viewpoint of the story. That's all it is.

Sargon of Applebee’s? What’s that lolcow up to these days?

@@biospark4758Redemption.

@@MidlifeCrisisJoe did he ever apologize for calling Metokur a groomer or destroying UKIP for a grift?

@@biospark4758No, but Gamergate 2.0 is apparently happening like he predicted, and if things keep going the way they're going, Trump might actually tweet about it. Which, if he does, I do believe Jim will have to eat some of his merchandise for failing to get behind his 10-year plan when he was offered seats to the ground floor.

Funny I'm actually writing a novel about this concept, a prophesied messiah of a downtrodden people is also the prophesied apocalypse of the ruling civilization

@@ToriHiraganaYou could compare and contrast how the protagonist is viewed by the different sides. If he is bad, start him off in the viewpoint of his people, to make him look good, then show the other point of view how he is a villain. Or visa versa.

​@@ToriHiraganaI always think both Messiah and Anti-Christ is the same person or idea. A protector for their own side, destroyer of all other opposition.

@@zogwort1522 we can't pretend or not pretend on this one without more data. But since he did write more books, I don't have to pretend anything. I can quote more of his writing.

Yeah, false dichotomy in this case. Paul is more a victim of fate with the curse of seeing the cage unlike the average Joe. And primarily a cautionary tale against the dangers of blindly following charismatic leaders as the result can be horrifying despite their best intentions. Frank Herbert openly stated that and doubled down on this message in Dune Messiah as many clearly missed the memo in the first book casually considering him just a hero.

@@janosd4nukehow many more times are y’all gonna post this “cautionary tale” copypaste? Y’all sound like npcs 🥱

@@illyrianaa trivia do be like that. Still better than throwing a temper tantrum over it LMAO

I think he is in category fallen hero

I would agree if most of her actions were justified by the outcome. Paul saw all of humanity go extinct because of stagnation and followed a very narrow path to prevent it, but he couldn't go through with it. But daenerys only became a tyrant because she thought her way was better than everyone else. We are only told she want to break the wheel, but never told what to replace it with. She ends up replacing it with her own wheel.

I havent read any of the books but what youre saying was my takeaway from the films as well. To me it definitely comes off as a "does the end justify the means" kind of dilemma for Paul and eventually he decides that the holy war would be justified. Maybe I'm just a dumbdumb though, who knows!

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That logic is atrocious. Staring with the fact that I think the author gets some say in whether or not his characters are heroes or not.

@@FortheSakeoftheComments Not at all, the author is merely the vehicle the story takes to get to an audience. How they react to the characters is entirely up to them.

​@@FortheSakeoftheCommentsI suggest you look at some of Terrible Writing Advice's videos, especially about villains. Just because author says the character is bad, doesn't mean the character is bad when looked at the piece. It is up to the author to make it so.

Denis, not Denny. And he clearly is not a straight-up villain in the movies either. Did you watch them?

@@jcore0981 Did you?

@@TheTrueRandomGamer Yup. It's pretty evident if you didn't jack the book off. He makes several mistakes and certainly chooses a destructive course. But he also avenged his father and killed a house of horrendously evil people. As well as give power to a group of people who were oppressed.

@@jcore0981 This doesn't address the jihad or his reaction to it, which are the things that actually matter but okay. It's pretty evident if you make direct comparisons to the more nuanced and well presented source material.

@TheTrueRandomGamer I'm sorry. Does he or does he not also commit mass genocide in the books? Or I'm sorry, is it too "nuanced" for my brain to process, Mr pretentious.

It's a bit extreme to call Herbert "simplistic." A successful series of novels that revolutionize science fiction while holding onto a mythic structure is hardly simple. But I suppose you could be truly galaxy-brained, and smarter than everyone on Earth who ever lived, or will live.

It's only depressing if you believe history is progressive, not cyclical. Technology improves, human nature can never change. Dune represents a repudiation of technophile utopianism. Technology became too powerful and was destroyed. Humanity embraces its baser, feudalistic tendencies. Only children and people who refuse to grow up believe in the endless march of progress.

Did we read the same novel? The bleakness doesn't even come until several novels in. At that point it's just a sci-fi setting with a lot of depth, but nothing that makes it especially bleak. You've clearly never read any of the Xeelee Sequence.

You're saying Jung was simplistic? 😂😂😂😂

Hes a megalomaniacal cult leader

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The movies focus on the events, while generally ignoring the consequences and implications of the events.

Precisely. Campbell even has variant archetypes for various heroes, one of which is the Tyrant Hero. I believe Paul fits both archetypes very well, the Hero and the Mythological figure. Herbert writes Paul as a 'hero,' in order to force the audience to redefine 'hero.' To be wary every time we use the word. Otherwise, Paul is simply a villain.

People are quite simple, and the best way to convey ideas to them is to use basic, traditional archetypes, stereotypes etc. about the same types of people we have told stories about for hundreds of thousands of years, doing deeply human relatable stuff. Artists are often a bit too clever for their own good, and spend their lives going deeper than the average person, get a bit bored with the standard types of stories and story telling, want to subvert or deconstruct it a bit, maybe critique humanity or society a bit, and shocker, it doesn't land that well with the general populace. Herbert realized and accepted his failing in this regard, and worked to change it up some for later books. Moore doubled down and refused to accept his failing to communicate, and blamed consumers for not meeting him where his head was at. The consumers of art are never "wrong" with their take on art. Artists only fail to communicate what they intended to.

Also I appreciate your kinda wholesome pro human take about this being a credit to them. I don't know exactly what you mean, but its admirable to try to put a positive spin on it rather than a more doomer take.

I think I would agree with your take on this. I also agree it is a credit to people, not a deficiency.

Or the can't write for toffee?

Yes. Society and humanity only thrive when people can appreciate life. With all its ups *and* downs. Rejecting the doomer's intended message of pessimism and just filtering it enough that you get most of it but choose to see it optimistically instead? It's cope, but it's the cope that keeps humanity alive and appreciating life.

Yeah in the crecent flims how the shots are done are very biblical and epic... Which is funny becuase star wars is not that yet meant to be something like that.

That is exactly my view of Paul's ark. He doesn't really turn "evil" or to the "dark side". I think comparisons with SW (which was already borrowing from Dune) leads to loss of complexity. Paul is attractive and sympathetic because he has a moral compass that doesn't dissapear throughout the story line, but he is from the get go trapped by destiny so to speak. He is too human to do what Leto II did (e.g. he loved Chani too much to leave her). Arguably Leto II can because with pre-born they are no longer fully human.

A formula, done well to reject as it encapsulates only one type of storytelling.

Fair enough

@@colbyentzminger217 While I can write and FPS style story structure where it's just a rise from the top... Not many else can and most people when asked what kind of story they like will point to one type... the "Hero's" jorney and Hollywood and amedia school know this too... So the hero's jorney is the standard type for everything... Which how can anyone disagree all of the high grossing media products of all time have it as their strucher so if you want the most apple write your media as the heros jorney.

​@@colbyentzminger217Wrong! A story without a beginning, middle and end isn't a story at all.

@@APsychicMonkey Lol. Naturally, but the idea of rising action being a single point, like a single large hill just isn't the case. That really only refers to Greek tragedies, in which the highest point of success is at the middle, before everything falls down.

Oh bugger, yes it is. Not sure how that one slipped in there. I’ll get that amended in the full video!

@@LostChord Looking forward to it 👍

It doesn’t matter his personal traits that are noble and admirable. He’s gunna kill billions of people. Heroes don’t kill billions lol

Yeah. It's almost like people are stupid and are prone to follow and invest in charismatic leaders regardless of their actual morality 💀

​​@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 this is not necessarily true. World War 2 resulted in 10 million dead axis soldiers; yet, we wouldn't say the allied forces are the villains of history when they fought na zis. With Dune Messiah. The billions die against Paul's wishes. He lost control of his own movement.

Almost all of history's heroes killed. In Paul's case, he is both heroic for being a lightning rod for war, revolution, etc, and he is a hero for doing his best to avoid those billions of deaths. The responsibility for those deaths lay firmly at the feet of the bene gesserit, the landsraad, and pardot kynes, for creating the role fate forced Paul to fill. He always tried to avoid the jihad.@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116

​@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 The only qualifications for becoming a hero are the observers think you are one. Nothing else.

Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune. Honestly you can pretty much stop there. But if you do continue, it’s then God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, etc. The publication date is a reliable guide until you get to the books his son wrote.

@@LostChord God Emperor of Dune is an amzing book in its own right. Also I do think that the last 2 books are important as a finally to some of the concepts Herbert was talking about.

God emperor is the best book in the series.@@LostChord

Throughout Frank Herbert’s Dune, Paul Atreides follows the major arc of a mythological hero as detailed in chapter 3 of Hero With a Thousand Faces; separation-initiation-return. Dune is separated into three separate parts: Dune, Maud’dib, and The Prophet. The first section details the separation portion of the journey in the form of the Atreides’ migration to Arrakis. It begins with the call to adventure on Caladan, and crossing the first threshold on Arrakis. By the end of the first initiation, the characters find themselves in the Belly of the Whale of the story with the betrayal by Dr. Yueh. This summons the attack by the Harkonnens which culminates in the death of Duke Leto, and the scattering of Gurney, Thifur Hawat, and Paul with his mother Rebecca. By the last paragraph, Paul has begun to realize his power and laments the tragedy that has befallen them.’ Second, Paul and his mother undergo the Initiation phase with the Fremen. They make their way through the road of trials in the desert with the help of Dr. Liet Kynes and Duncan Idaho until they eventually come in contact with the Fremen. There, Paul kills one of their members and takes his place in the Sietch. Both Paul and his Mother encounter a “Goddess' ' respectively; Paul meets with Chani, and Rebecca comes in contact with the Fremen Reverend Mother. By the end of this second section, Paul embraces his role as the Lisan al-gaib, the Muad’dib with prophetic foresight which would lead them to victory. In terms of the hero’s journey, this is considered the Ultimate Boon.’ The third and final aspect of the Hero’s Journey is the Return. Taking place nearly two years after the events in the first and second parts, Paul has now established himself within the Fremen as a formidable warrior hero. Although his ambition to destroy the Harkonnens remain, he has become accustomed to the desert life, though another trial remains. In the Hero’s journey, this is known as the Magic Flight, a supernatural form of transport that aids them in victory. In Dune, this takes form in Paul learning how to wrangle and ride the sandworms. By the end, the Harkonnens return to Arrakis to ensure control, but this proves to be their downfall. Seizing the opportunity, Paul leads the Fremen to destroy the Harkonnens and Paul seizes the Imperial throne for himself through force. In this, he simultaneously becomes Master of the Two Worlds and offers Freedom to live.’ Dune is organized as a traditional Hero’s journey, striking many of the key chords that are found in timeless myths including those mentioned above, and to a lesser extent an argument could be made for those tropes left unmentioned. This is due to Paul’s separation, initiation, and return throughout the duration of the book. Although Frank Herbert challenges convention with his interpretation of messianic prophecy and the tyrant hero, it must not be mistaken that Paul Atreides was written as a heroic archetype and that this is necessary in order for the author to properly offer criticism for the archetype itself.

I mean, does the author get a say?

@@FortheSakeoftheComments Sort of. The author got a say when he wrote the book. Beyond that, it is in the hands of the audience. Take a look at "The Author is Dead" theory.

@@WarGamerGirl You mean the theory that has been criticized for ignoring the importance of context, denying the writer agency in their own work, eroding literary criticism and causes aspects of the story to loose meaning? It's a theory. That's it.

@@FortheSakeoftheCommentsnope 😊