E60 M5 S85 Rod Bearing Issues | WHY The V10's Really Fail 

Mark, In 2017 I had an E92 M3 6spd with 26k miles and always worried about premature bearing failure due to 10w60 spec'd molasses. After a lot of research at the time, I found info from a couple sources that BMW had followed Porsche's lead and unofficially approved the use of a thinner oil for non-track usage vehicles. Obviously, officially approving would have been a financial disaster. It seems that the heavier viscosity oil is always spec'd in anticipation of track usage and since most of these cars rarely see track duty, the ensuing bearing failure from DD usage was the end result. I was reluctant to go to the supposedly 'approved' 5w30 option and instead went 0w40 without any issues. I've read the comments below insinuating that 'how dare you question engineering' but let's be honest, everyone's usage is going to vary and a race spec viscosity isn't going to fare well in a DD sedan. Keep up the good work! It's from video's like yours and Timm's in the UK that allows me to entertain vehicles I would've previously stayed away from and missed the enjoyment. Just sold my 2019 M4 and bought a very low mileage E64 650i Sport and currently looking at a 29k miles E64 M6 cuz the wife likes the 650i so much. The new cars are great, don't get me wrong, but they don't have the same character or appeal to me or my wife.

I don't own an M5 but find this series very interesting. You have a Gallardo in the garage, but rave about the E60! A true enthusiast , keep these videos coming..

Oil need to get to a certain temp before you get 100% protection but boys get in and start up and foot on floor do not wait for engine to warm up !!

Exoticcar great video! I really appreciate the time you took to explain all this and it makes perfect sense. Please keep up the good work.

That was some really good information! Thank you for that. Sounds like you’ve done quiet a bit of research on the matter and it made a tone of sense. Again thank you

You do a great job of explaining this. I'm now a subscriber.

Despite the e60 m5 problems, one day im going to be an owner of this beast. Great video by the way!

Still buying one lol

Great video. I have been running 0w40 in my S65 for almost 100k Miles. Recently replaced the valve cover gasket so I got a peak inside the heads as well as the underside of the covers and they look brand new. Religious changes every 5k or sooner and stay on top of all fluid changes and maintenance like plugs and coils. Car runs better today than ever. Primary decat delete, BPM tune and she is a monster that will last many many more exciting miles. I can not wait to add a manual E60 M5 with the goal of eventually having the highest mile car of each in great working order. Keep up the great content, if only you were remotely local, would love to meet up and let you test my M3 for review.

I like seeing ur channel grow Mark!

VERY informative, thanks!

What great content; thank you very much for taking the time to offer such great tips.

We have a 2009 Interlagos Blue M5 and are at about 80K miles. Car has been damn near flawless but looking to do bearings soon. Great content thanks for posting.

Great detailed video love it

Great guy, thanks for sharing 👏🏻👍

Thanks for the information it was very informative. I’ve never been a fan of the v10 engine but always been under the impression that the v8 was a bulletproof lump,anyway you live and learn

Thanks for this video. I'm planning on eventually getting an E60 so it's good to know the specific reason for failure. However, since I live in winter for 8 months of the year, would this be a car I would have to keep in the garage most of the time?

Considering the RPM's, if you frame that as Revolutions Per *Mile*, Considering the power and displacement. 50-80K miles on rod bearing = 75-100k relative.

I had an E60 and with that weight of oil 10w60 I thought the motors where built loose from the factory with that weight required. Good info 👍

Dear Sir,I soo appreciate and thank you for such a fair and very clear explanation of this issue.Now, I just retired and have always owned and driven pretty hard my BMW's. Now as a retirement gifts I am getting myself a low-mileage 2008 e60 stick and also a low-mileage e92 which I plan on tricking-out( body-kits and all ).Now, my question and I more or less understand how engines work.What I need to know from you is, after what you've explained.....would it make sense to once purchased I should start using 0 -40 oil?Please ket me know soonest.Thank you,Roland D

It is a shame, it is such a beauty. I wish they had come with a dual clutch. The only buy one with a manual. 10w60 is what they have always spec with m cars. I would recommend a 0w40 Castrol , Penzoil, or Amsoil.

I live in Canada so what type of oil should I use the 10w60 might be to thick during the winter months.

Hallo this information is so helpful for me thank you so much sir !!!

Super vid, bro.... thanks,... I still want an m5

I agree with most of what you said but I find myself having to constantly add oil, almost weekly to my M5 as it stands with 10W 60. If we go lighter with the oil, wouldn't the car be burning that up in a heat beat? How could that be good for the engine? Let's not forget that the "10" number is just for cold starts depending on outside temp, you could drop that to 5 or 0 in the winter. But the 60 number may indeed be too thick in the long run but dropping all the way down to 30 is insane. How could you possibly think that this high revving 500 hp race car would take the same oil as a 530i? With proper warm up (10 full minutes) with the gauge red line getting down to 9,000 BEFORE you drive off away from your home, then bringing oil temp to norm, constant maintenance and oil changes, the engine will last forever!

well explained. Good video！

Wonder if the oil recommendation with 5w-40 or 5w-50 oil is also applicable for the M3 E46 where BMW recommend 10w-60 witch is a very heavy and thick oil , if you do not track your car ? What do the rest think or what is your thoughts / experience ?

I love the e60 5 series well I dont own a m5 but I own a e60 05 530d and it's a wonderful car lots of tourq and reliability and an absolute joy to drive

Thank you for this.. I'm shopping and being a mustang Cobra guy I'm new to bmw and want the luxury and performance . And agree all day w the oil issue

Great video!

Hi so i’m torn on wondering if i should continue a search for a 2007-2010 M5 which is also an E60 i guess? should i go for it and make sure that all the work has been handled and if not get it done? or should i look for a different car without a S85 engine? also love the videos!!!

On your e60 m5, did you do the 5w-40 engine oil swap over? ive been thinking about using 5w40 over 10w60.

just got a m5 v10 103k miles for 20k$$ flat so thx so much for the info

Question, what type oil would you recommend me using for my 550i 2007?

This video is good for the culture.

Mark , have you already replaced your rod bearing? And are you currently using 5w 40 oil ? If yes are you gonna make a video if further in the future you’d not replace that part ? That was a great video honestly

Hi Mark, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but my concern is that the s85 may run hotter at the crank than the new bmw's and maybe the other v10's which would explain why bmw use a thicker oil. I will be sticking with the 10w 60 in my E63 M6 for the moment

Hi Mark, what oil do you use for the beast? Castrol has discontinued the 10W60 TWS oil and I'm looking for an alternative. Some people recommend the Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W60, but it has no M-approval, the Castrol 10W60 Supercar does.

Saw the video and read most of the comments...10-60...I leave in Greece where the temperatures are higher than most places and that viscosity is perfect for such a climate as ours. In colder places it might be "heavy" as the OP says, so go with 5-40 or even 5-30, fully synthetic of course. The climate is vital for the viscosity you use. Do REGULAR oil changes at 5000kms and check your oil level regularly to top it up. Bad mentainance from bad owners destroys the reputation of such high performance automobiles. Buy a good one and enjoy it!!!

Hey, what oil do u use in the beast?

It make sense now, 10W-60 is ridiculous for a car with tight clearances such as this. I totally agree with you and would run an 0W-XX... 0W-40 sounds good. Most 0W oils seem to be very good. I run 0W-20 in my Type R (actually the factory recommendation) and I refuse to run 5W-30 or anything heavier even with my upgraded Turbo I will still be running 0W-20 specifically Motul 300V. I would plan to run Motul stuff in a BMW as well... I am looking at getting an E60 someday for myself, I won't let these reliability issues deter me from experiencing that wonderful V10 with a 6speed. The new BMW turbo engines are cool, but they don't stir my soul like this high revving V10 does. Whatever my next vehicle is needs to be something high revving and aural... it won't be an S2000 because I had that already. Whenever I get an E60 before I really drive it it's going straight to the shop to get the bearings replaced... so I just have to factor in repairs into the purchase price of the car.

I find it very hard to take reliable information from a Porsche guy about BMWs. Also you yourself had made a distinct point in another video to use the 10w60 as it also is a necessity for the vanos system to run as intended without risk of failure

bro what oil should i use if i dont drive very hard

5w30 for the break-in period(2k km) and 10w60 after that.Only those are allowed for the S85

so what weight are you running in your M5 now?

Mark! Question for you. Will you be testing a thinner oil on your M5? I'm curious how the car will react to it. I'm thinking of trying it out myself in future. Thanks for great content:) 👍

Hey Mark. What the heck are we suppose to do? I have a e46 m3 and the e60 m5 and they are both using 10w60 and have been solid so far! Do you have any experience with the thinner oil? Thanks

Bmw should of at the least, addressed this serious issue, at the most build a high revving engine, with absolute precision. However, these cars are for the elite who lease these cars for the 3 year mark, then they hit the used market, it, s everybody else issues. Not good bmw. I have to stay away, due to the issues. Buy these cars, they are great cars, performance is stellar, but be prepared for these issues. Im glad this video exist, the public needs to learn the truth.

Wait so, I was about to do rod bearings and I’m using 10w60. But.. what if I change to 0W40 and let’s suppose the rod bearings have some wear… Will I still have to change the stock rod bearings? Cuz I changed the oil, what’s the point of changing then if 0w40 is gonna protect catastrophic engine failure? Rod bearing change isn’t cheap you know

I think if you live in colder climates you are going to have rod bearing issues using the 10w 60. Mine has been in Arizona it’s whole life and had 10w 60 used every time and the blackstone labs report showed universal average of 7 for copper. Mine was at 6. Get your oil tested it is worth it. I have 114000 miles on mine.

There are so many issues that can and will come at you; all costing thousands. SMG pump, clutch, every part of vanos, throttle actuators, bearings. Then you get to the every day car stuff like suffering 10-15 MPG, insurance. Then, you are paying the premiu///M for tires, brakes, bushings... For a 10+ year old car! I love the e60, everything about it! I have wanted one for years, been on test drives, searched and researched... Contemplated and decided I NEED one. But have not been able to pull the trigger, it's just is too risky. A literal game of Russian roulette. Buying it could be super rewarding, or it could be financial suicide. You might buy one and not have any issues, or you might buy one and have to spend 15,000 in maintenance in a single year in a car that looks new and has been meticulously maintained... At that rate, you would be better off buying a Lambo or Ferrari. It's to the point now where a 2015 M4 would cost about the same as an e60 M5 when you look at total cost of ownership on a yearly basis. I'm looking for a car with a budget of around $50,000, not a daily, just a toy. And I always come back to the M5/M6 with that v10, even though they're much less than that. But can't justify actually buying one.

What oil are you using?

Ive been trying to figure out if the rod bearing is a one time fix issue or a reoccurring problem which would make it a official default

whats the typical cost to have a shop do the rod bearings on a M5 ?

yea i want to change mine also befor some thing . big happens sooner

Thanks

dude thats suck because that cars is a hell of a ride when driving on the limit

Still going to buy one, is there any early signs of failure?? Is this in all e60 an issue?? I have heard of m5 with 270k on original bearings.

Can anyone recommend a good BMW machanic in Charlotte NC?

Wat oil do u say 2 use

Very simple. The same happened on those 2.7 dodge intrepid s. The solution was to grind or polish little more than specs the journals but of course eveybody at the end junk those cars since it was not worth a rebuilt.

Love this guy, grow the David Lynch haircut!!! 😊

So what oil do you run in your E60 M5? I just picked up one and running motul in it.

I've ran 10w60 in both my s54s since new. No issues. Replaced bearings at 65k on both as well. I'm just about to dig into my s63 in about 2 months once it ticks over 65k. Let just be honest either do the maintenance or buy a less performance oriented engine rather than complain about what someone should have could have but didn't..... I've watched brand new engines detonate on first start/break in. Did I mention a Latvian tech who assembled s54s in the plant gave me a tip..... Let your lubricants warm up not much but not cold before you give it the beans otherwise premature wear will occur in every BMW engine. Think not ....? I've owned a dozen and all still ran perfectly or within spec tolerance so.....

Mark, i have a 2008 Lci now on 60K , ill be having the bearings replaced next month by a guy who does around 15 x S85 a year (bearings) he has done 44 x S85 bearing jobs.. 122 x S62 and 89 X S54 bearing jobs and he says 10W60 , the new M5 is not a high rpm car and there is no need for the 10w60 oil..

The S65 may be a bit more reliable, since it lasts a little longer the S85. Rod bearing failure happens on the S54 as well, but not so much. For rod bearings to be replaced on the S65, it should be done after 100k miles.

What about main rod bearings, I just changed rod bearings although I still hear a metalic sound on the bottom of the engine. Do main bearings also part of the issue, people are starting to mention that they also fail.

Is this the same for a 2007 M6?

I just took my pan off leaky oil line, my first middle bearing looks new? I'll check other tomorrow. I got ACL performance bearings. Car has 243,000Km

How many km on your car?

Heat is killing Rod bearings two for sure I have a2003 bmw 540i and every time I did oil change in my car I saw a tiny copper pieces in my oil filter after I modified thermostat for a lower temperature problem solved before temperature was 110C and after modification in very hot condition hits 90C . So I was lucky to figure out this and save my engine .

We still ALLLLL want one…!!

brilliant

I like the fact that most of BMW drivers are engineers. I also hope that real motorization not die for the next 25 years.

I reckon the use of lighter oil in f10 m5 engine is not because oil tech moved on or bmw learnt something In my opinion it is definitely more to do with the fitment of turbos

Probably a measure to aid the emissions system function. Slack NA engines are inherently less predictable per given ignition timing and that is partially critical to a cleaner burn.

5w40 is a good balance..

Doug brought me here :)

It's the clearance, Clarence.

Plastigauge my friend. The engine oil for what you're talking clearance wise is 0W to 5W. Schaeffers or Lubrication Engineers oil is incredible. Either oil manufacturer has a lubricant cure for your vehicle. Not cheap but worth it.

Switch to Motul ester 5w 50.. Been running for 20000 miles yet

What do you think about using 5w50 Mobile1?

Plastigage is not accurate enough to distinguish .0002 or 2 ten thousands of an inch. I do agree there is obviously a known issue with BMW motors, and many point at bearing tolerances, it there are many factors. Obviously a high performance motor with an expectation of lasting as long as a normal sedan, may be a challenge for any engineer. my 2 cents anyhow.

I have a theory that the clearance is too tight for the oil viscosity and apart from that people don’t warm up their engine

I just bought a M5 with a blown motor.. and it's still reading like the oil is filled.. I can tell the design of the oil pan is bad. The front pick up most likely starves out causing the rod issues.. when I Finnish my motor I will keep just a little extra oil in it..

Very informative video on the rod bearing issue mark! No engine is perfect, i still think the V10 in the M5 is a piece of modern engineering. currently there's a class action lawsuit on the bearing issue against BMW on both the M3 and the M5. luckily now there is an updated rod bearing part that meets the new clearance requirements. The kit is about $800 not including installation from a specialist. I do agree on the oil though the 60 grade is too heavy for this engine. now if you wanna know if you have rod bearing problems i suggest you get your engine oil analyzed and see if you have traces of copper, if you do, i would drive the car normally and don't be aggressive with the revs. And always, always wait until the the engine oil heats up to proper temperature before you press the pedal all the way down. likns down below www.turnermotorsport.com/p-340428-e60-m5-e63-m6-rod-bearing-overhaul-kit/?pdk=AQEBAQEB www.ecstuning.com/b-be-bearings-parts/performance-connecting-rod-bearing-set/sp1527hkstds85~b/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1q3VBRCFARIsAPHJXrGna5ZB8oYQrCpuTjkOcaaEvMeFmz8sVkqyt2zzn11kIVoCXvGTV_4aAh9NEALw_wcB Now if you want to do it yourself here's a very good detailed walk through on changing the rod bearings. and i only recommend it if you really really really know your way around an engine and have lots of experience. www.germanautosolutions.com/diy_tech/m5_rod_bearings/s85_rod_bearing_change_diy.php

Good works, rod bearings tolerances are too tight. Need a low viscosity oil for proper lubrication.

Pretty sure race engines have tighter clearances not bigger. A high clearance leads to Rod slap and crappy lubrication. Race engines have tighter clearances everywhere. In order to keep the engine from wearing quickly most high performance engines have their oil warmed through a machine before starting and the engine is started with oil that’s up to temperature. The reason bmw hasn’t came up with a solution is because there’s nothing wrong with the engine. The s85 has tight bearing clearances because it gets its genes from the bmw formula 1 v10 engines from the early 2000s. The reason rod bearings are going bad is because people buy the car to be cool and don’t understand that’s it’s a special car, it’s not a civic you can’t just get in it and hit the rev limit all day long without letting the engine get up to temperature. Letting this engine warm up is so important. Even when the rev limit reaches its max as it’s warming up, the oil is still not at operating temperature. I don’t know who you’re engine builders are but if they tell you that high performance engines have high clearances, I wouldn’t let them work on your engine. If bmw increased the clearances the s85 would not survive the rpm that it goes through and performance would be effected. It’s as simple as driving like a senior on the way to church on a Sunday morning for 15-20 mins to let the engine reach normal operating temperature before driving like a teenager in a civic screaming VTEC out the window. Also last thing I’m gonna stick the the oil grade bmw recommends, because after all they were the ones that designed and built this engine so I think what they tell us is important. One more thing, if you didn’t know the s65 came from the s85. Therefore same goes for e9x m3 owners. E46 m3 owners, you’re engine came from a different race engine so same goes for you. All the race engines that these amazing M engines come from are started with the oil already at operating temperature. So think about that. And last thing please do more research than this video, DO NOT stop your research here.

Seems like just putting a thinner oil will solve all the engine reliability issues...

Stellar money pit .😁

Mark perhaps we should round up as many E60/61 owners & email the ceo of bmw, if no reply can we do a class action movement / lawsuit ?

17:00 Lamborghini is so much smarter, they also have the vast experience of VAG to draw from. This should not be underestimated, VAG probably sells 5x the cars as BMW. The degree of parts commonality is huge, imagine VAG building Jettas or Golfs that blew up at 60-80k. My S8 HAS OVER 200K IT NEEDS VALVE COVER GASKETS 😭.

The F10 M5 has bearing failures as well.

My dad’s Chevy Silverado takes 0-W20

BMW designed to only last during the lease period. They are disposable cars.

Is it the fact that the crankshaft wears egg shaped and this is the problem ,!!!!

Is motorkote good?

If I bought M5 or M6 with 1 or 2 owners And I'm not shore how they took care of it I would change them 100% and also change all oil in this car. I want fresh start with my Baby:)

I've got an 06 with like 112,000 miles on it. I've read on the boards (so grain of salt) that these bearing failures tend to happen in the 50-70 k mile ranges as you said and if you get past that you may be okay. Like maybe some of the engines had bearings closer to the ideal 1.5 thou tolerances rather than the 1.3 that's killing engines? I don't know. Wishful thinking. I've considered replacing mine but I'm not sure if I'd trust a disinterested independent shop to really do the job right.

So Get a E60 M5 with 60, 70, 80,000 miles for $30,000 and do a rebuild and fluid flush for 10-15k. use lighter oil, warm the engine properly and change the oil every 4,000 miles and you have yourself a V10 monster for 40-$45,000