Hey Jesse, I've been a beer brewer for nearly 15 years and a lot of the concepts of distilling are the same right up until distillation. Another way to do this to maintain more control is to boil your wash to sanitize it, ferment with your yeast of choice, and when you want to start the "souring" process throw some (a handful?) malted barley into the fermented wash. Barley naturally has tons of lactobacillus on the husk and you will get a lacto fermentation that you can then control with temperature and time.
Howdy Jesse! Marco here from South Africa. I love your show and never miss any. So. The lockdown caused a Life turn for me ,because i started cleaning my garage out and my Nonno's Copper grappa still (150Lt copper pot still) appeared in front of my eyes. The last time we used it was 35years ago.. ... Things have not been the same again. I have a permanent fermentation going on in my head since (By the way, I hardly drink). But boy o boy . Grain whiskeys ! Single malts! Treacle 3 Rums! Dunder bucket! . Sugar water by the gallons! etc etc Limoncello . Every weekend , she runs. The UJSSM was started at the beginning of September and I Had a 5Lt bucket with the grains and corn from the first whiskeys which i let go rotten and nurtured since May the 3 this year i did add a bit of water , fresh uncooked cracked corn and other odds and ends. I was added to the second ferment of the sour mash saga . I gotta say its the best tasting spirit I've ever had and am super chuffed about it . Im at Generation 5 this weekend and the tastes keep getting better , So a thank you for the inspiration . regards. -- pictures & notes available if wanted. Marco
Same here Marco. Nothing on any shelf at the store can match the smooth flavorful taste of a later gen true sour mash ms. Glad you’ve resurrected the old girl !!! Cheers mate 🍻 !!
Marco I have done the same as you! Modified the recipe a bit, but kept the process. Was able to keep 6 gallons, and put it on oak, the first year it wasn't so great, but every year after that it gets better and better! 4 Years aged now and I still have about a gallon left.
This is really interesting. Brewers who add hops to their wort are going to inhibit souring as the hops seem to protect the beer - which is one reason IPA was developed to enable the beer to be shipped across the world without spoiling. Historically, ale tended to sour very soon after fermentation in part, I think, because of the lacto-bacteria in the grain were not protected by hops and in part because if the ales were stored in wooden casks or barrels, often the wood was infected with Brett and other bacteria. But my wash is always soured and soured very deliberately and in a controlled manner. When I make hard cheese I ripen the milk for fixed lengths of time at fixed temperatures with yeast and bacteria from kefir I grow and often ferment the soured leftover whey into a wine that now contains lactic acid produced by the lactic bacteria that have transformed some of the milk sugars (lactose). I boil the whey to kill the bacteria and add lactase before I pitch the yeast. Lactase transforms the remaining lactose into simple fermentable sugars that wine or bread yeast can ferment. I add about 2 lbs of sugar/ gallon of whey to hit an ABV of about 12 - 13% and then distill that wine into a spirit. After a month of oaking this tastes incredible.
After having made a 7th or 8th generation of rum with dunder... with no sanitising of anything....I find, leaving every wash, to settle & "grow" is the key, to a great end product. It works for me, no matter the wash.
Exactly. There is no point for a craft distiller to rush the distillation. Things keep happening even when primary fermentation stops. It's not only alcohol % we are interested in.
Just finished a long standing project. Had a very dark all grain mash with lots of chocolate and dark Munich plus some dark crystal malts. Mostly flaked corn. Fermented in a 20 gallon bucket on grain. Waited for fermentation to stop and siphoned off about 9 clear gallons. I let that sit for about 5-7 days. It got a nice pellicle starting and then performed a stripping run. But while that happened I topped up that 20 gallon fermenter with 9 gallons of sugar water at a gravity of 1.100. Once it was done fermenting, siphoned off about 12 gallons of clear wash and then sparged the grains placing the sparge water back into the fermenter to the 20 gallon mark and added another 25lb of sugar. The second siphon had a stripping by run done immediately because it was already quite sour. The PH got so low in the 3rd ferment I had to add nearly a whole box of baking soda because the fermentation stalled. After the PH correction it finished nicely. Another several stripping runs and I had 10 gallons of about 39% ABV low wines. Now we have our cuts and 2.5 gallons at about 78% ABV. All that souring really brought out some light fruity notes. Banana was very strong. Lots of light peachy and stone fruit notes that melded well with the chocolate and coffee notes. Also was able to capture 100ml of pure diacetyl it seemed. The tiniest taste coated your whole mouth in pure popcorn butter. It was a very small fraction but was so strong. That went into the blend for sure.
Another method is to let the mash rest for a few days before pitching your yeast. You can put a large brew bag over the brew kettle and cover it with the lid and leave it for 3-5 days or until your mash gets bubbly then add your yeast and yeast nutrient.
Patience.. AWESOME... As my wife says, "I have plenty of patience... I haven't used any yet!" Jess, you are indeed the BEST!! Thanks for another AWESOME and INFORMATIVE video!!!
Here in the States we call it an infection. As long as it's not a black mold or "Hairy " I will run it. The flavors are wonderful and the smell is awesome too . Thanks Jessie.
I malt my own grain outside and off the ground. The sour smell is amazing. Let the sun do it’s thing when sprouts show. Grind and add to mash. It will take a day or two to start working. Be patient. Of course a lot of other factors are left out. No yeast added!!!!!
Fun fact - souring the peated wash (by souring I mean forgetting about a half of your ready fermented wash and remembering about it a week later when it's all the way down to 2,9 pH - tasted like kvas almost :)) actually reduces the peated smell, but you get really nice prunes (smoked dried plums) smell after maturation. I guess those were the newly created esters :) Really no problem with sour mash and it will happen by itself if you are not 100% on top of your fermentation schedule.
It's funny because because I have a kombucha company and I've fermented my "beer" there and for too long and I had a 1 inch thinck pellicule on to of my fermentation. "Beer" was very lactic and acetic, but it made a SUPER good whisky. I'm planing then to pitch some kombucha culture right at start of fermentation.
AWESOME video again dude, I have an all-grain Bourbon going ATM and it has been standing 3 days now after finished, did not boil so I am really hoping for the funk, will be filming it this weekend, awesome, Have a lekker one
Thank you for this! It’s super timely for me as well. I’ve got a batch of whiskey fermenting right now. Corn, barley, and oats, converted with amylase powder. After watching this video, I’m going to let it go for a few days extra and see what happens.
Right on Jesse! Black licorice RULES!!! But it's very divisive: you either love it or HATE it. We have funny conversations debating which side you're on at work (or...we used to before the pandemic...)
One edge case where we do boil all of our grain is 100% corn mashes converted with enzymes. That usually gets boiled for a long time too. This is where throwing in a little bit of uncooked grain on your ferment or bringing over bacteria from a previous sour ferment could come in handy.
My 1st UJSM that I emailed you about a year or so ago had rouge yeast in it, off grain, super sour, one of the best I’ve done. Same with my molasses, it’s already got Funk in it before it gets to the fermenter! Love your work 👍
time for pasteurization at 145F (63C) is 30 minutes, at 160F (72C) its 15 seconds. It's why you don't have to boil beer to have it keep (as long as everything else is clean). Boiling is mostly done to concentrate the wort, coagulate/precipitate protiens, add bitterness, and add color/flavor. Any souring you are getting is due to prolonged open fermentation and/or "dirty" (by beer standards) equipment. I run a Belgian Diastaticus var. Yeast, so there's not much for other bugs to work with (but it kicks out so many esters and phenols that I don't worry about it lol). Max attenuation on a measure of grain= profit (since residual sugars don't really make it over in the distillate) lol I suppose if i wanted to sour it, I could pitch mother in for a few days
a lot of traditional brewers here in norway don't boil the wort, and it lasts for years and tastes perfectly fine, the beer i sent to the competition at the kornølfestival this saturday is a raw ale
Good advice. We let the mash "age" for several days after fermentation has ended. Like you, I use my nose and finger taste it till there is that obvious sour smell and taste to the mash. When it's present, off to the still it goes.
with a long souring process, make sure you have an air tigh vessel (with an air lock), there are bacteria that are going to oxidate alcohol and make acetic acid from it, to do that they need oxygen, if you dont wanna lose alcohol dont give it to them :)
I had a malted barley wash run and ferment with the barley still in it for 2-3 weeks. Easily the funkiest smell I've ever had, but also the highest alcohol content for me and some of the best flavors I've had yet.
Hey Jesse, I let one batch of peat whisky go for a month in the fermenter... now I know why it smelt different :) thanks heaps. Its now in the barrel ageing.
My apologies if this has already been mentioned, but there's a thread on the HD forum that outlines a good procedure for creating a "sour corn starter" that can be added to a ferment to create a sour mash. I think the author is Brandon, but the original idea belongs to Pintoshine. Haven't tried it myself (yet).
Technically the wild bacteria/fungi or added ones like Brett or lacto that gets into a mash after the pitched yeast will increase the ABV by eating even more of the sugars so you should se a gravity drop below the expected outcome from the pitched yeast.
The original sour mash process was done by putting 10 or 15% of the last run spent mash into the new batch . Then, just let it ferment. Cooked yeast is a good yeast nutrient.
Interesting info. I've saved and reused grains and back-set a cpl of times. Added some fresh corn and barley and a bunch of sugar, but had many pounds of used grain and maybe 3 gallons of back-set liquid, topped up to a 6 or 7 gallon wash with fresh water. It wasn't really a true sour mash, but did have an interesting and different flavor. Once I get my new still going I'll be trying an Uncle Jim's type just for the sake of something new. Good upload Jess, Thanks and keep 'em coming 👍
Thanks Jesse, great tutorial. I love your channel and appreciate your efforts in product knowledge, video recording, video editing & still having time for your wonderful family.
My strike is 63 and sparge at 70 so some bacteria from the malt survives so my wash is pretty funky. My new make smells of baked apple , cinnamon , biscuits . I use both beer yeast and bread yeast to ferment afew distillerys round here use bread yeast beer yeast combinations and its really fruity. Not washing the brewing vats works aswell
Thank you very much. This helps me a lot. I was wondering why my sugar wash had stopped and I had a reading of 1.000 and a day later I see new type of foaming bubbles. I guess this was the wild bacteria taking over at the end. I didn't let it go very long because it worried me. It will not worry me now. Thank you again and cheers mate
As long as there is not enough bacteria or whatever to prevent fermentation from occurring in the first place, your throwing it in a still and boiling the crap out of it anyway, and anything that manages to survive and somehow find it's way out with the vapour will find itself in a high ABV distilite (Sanitiser). Gotta luv distilling.
Well, not exactly what you are talking about but...I am also a Winemaker. I use a variety of fruits from grapes to a few things I won't disclose because I might be starting my own Distillery using this stuff. Anyway, I have Muscadines out back. Last year I made 4 Gallons of Wine with them, however, no matter where I put my jugs to keep them out of the light and out of sight they kept getting knocked over, the airlocks knocked off or broken. [[Thanks D'Argo-my big Pit/Boxer/Bulldozer mix of a beast]] Totally lost one by getting knocked over. The other three sat for over a year in various stages of being covered or simply open to the air, dust, dog hair and so forth. They were cloudy-smelled a bit like Wine with moldy carpet stuck in it. Anyway-got myself a Chinese stovetop Still, tossed all of it in there along with four bottles of stuff I had not labelled, ran it and the Alc came out fruity and sweet. Tastes like Dog Feet on the end. Just kidding.
I accidentally let a corn and barley mash sit for three weeks after fermentation. I was going to dump it but decided not to and I'm sure glad I didn't.
YO!..... Regarding a Bourbon mash....Would you say you get more flavor from a cooked corn sugar mash or more flavor from a converted starch mash? love the channel...keep it up
After making a simple mash of water, corn, sugar, raisins and yeast, straining off the first mash, what do you think of using that same corn to make another mash? Adding more sugar, water, raisins, yeast and water? Do you think there would be more of a sour note in the second mash on the same corn?
I'd be more interested in letting it sour before pitching yeast. Reason being, 'bugs' need the sugar also, thats where the competition comes from. I've done some sour ales, and the bugs always get first choice on the sugar before the yeast dominate. I'll have to do a side by side to see how it goes.
Love your videos and learned loads, I’m now ready to dip a toe and would like to try to emulate your set up. Any chance you could post a list of parts that your ccvm is made up of and an idea of the type of store to get them . I’m in the uk and it’s not easy finding the gear. Thanks v much.
Found you via Bearded and Bored and have loved your videos. I haven’t had time to watch them all so forgive me if these questions have been answered already. Have you ever tried souring with something like Good Belly? Have you ever used old bread from a bakery for a mash? This might give you a cheap or even free ingredient that many of us newbies could have access to. Plus It could give some interesting flavors by using different types like sour dough, rye, pumpernickel, etc.
So the corollary, if you want a "clean" wash, make sure to at least strip it within the first day or so after you reach terminal gravity or risk going into sour territory?
i know this vid is almost 2 years old but lets say i do something like the uncle jessies sour thing would i need to add yeast the 2nd mash? ill be suprised if this gets a respond but thank you for your time if you know and can help please and thank you!!!
I'm surprised you did let a small batch go extra funky just for the video. Idea for another, seeing how funky you're comfortable letting one go, then letting another go a bit longer???
One potential problem, it seems like if you fermented to a high enough ABV (like 15%) the alcohol would kill off the native microbes. But a lower ABV wash wouldn't matter.
Hi Jesse, I appreciate that this is an old video, but I have bought a 30L oak barrel which I would like to put a sour mash in. I prefer sour mash to drink, but never took the plunge to actually make it. Can I confirm one point from the video. Are you saying that after your mash you wait to put yeast in, or that you put the yeast in right away. It feels like the former makes sense to me, but would appreciate if you can clarify
Great topic Jess. My temp controller stopped working . Just got a replacement part yesterday and have a mash that’s been in the fermenter for 3m. Should I dump it?
Thanks for your insight on this topic. I live in the San Francisco Bay area which is a great environment for sour dough bread. Would introducing sourdough starter at some point (if so when?) be an advantage for a sour mash? Much thanks!
Yup, you totally could. That would give you a little more benefit in terms of consistency too. You would likely want to do it the other way around though. Get primary done first. Then pitch bugs.
I got 16lbs corn 4lbs barley and 8 gallon pot to make the mash, so my plan is I have two 8 gallon pots so going to heat two mashes at once to fill two 5 gallon pales...I just don’t know what my ratio should be as in how much grain vs water in a 8 gallon pot?
I'm going to go ahead and assume that this doesn't happen when you do sugar washes and only happens for grain washes? Because I got sugar washes that have been sitting for a couple weeks since fermentation stopped and i don't really smell or taste any different to normal.
I've opted for a pure corn wash with enzymes for saccarification and possibly some oats (i haven't decided yet) and was thinking of running it in the new year, if I set it up now and pitch do you think that would give me a similar style to a sour mash?
my grandfather said and i QUOTE if you can can scorch corn starch with out burning it you can do this.. gd way to learn is cast iron frying pan and learn to do that youll be fine .. he is 89
No harm in open fermenting, the co2 blankets the wash during fermentation anyway. it shouldn't matter either way though lactobacillus doesn't need oxygen to grow. Just don't sanitize.
With respect to souring with wild yeast and bacteria, I’d agree with Jessie - doesn’t matter. However in my opinion you get a different body and flavour when you mash on the grain. I’d love to see Jessie test my theory- his ability to taste and feel the subtle differences is amazing!
First off...your mash must SOUR before you pitch yet yeast...for example add boiling water to your mash by the gallon..adding another boiling gallon every time the water temp goes below 140 degrees...do this until you hit your water mark...THEN CAP IT...and let it sit capped until reaches room temp..THEN pitch your yeast...this can take 24-48 hours.
i used to let my sweet feed mash with cant sugar and my honeyshine mash sour for 3 weeks after letting normal fermentation with Redstar 18% champaign yeast. would take about 6 to 9 days and then id crack the lid open on the fermenter for 3 weeks and it was amazing
Think UJSSM, a single batch is pretty crappy, but once you've gone several generations down the 'sour mash' style road, the flavors start jumping out at you. Is weird to think that sour mash = good flavors in the spirit, but it does.
