Roger is not the reason for Pink Floyd's success; neither is David. The band succeeded due to David's ability to pour his soul into his music and Roger doing likewise into the lyrics. All the members of that band are brilliant musicians because they understand that music is alive. Their connection and passion for their music giving it an awe-inspiring emotional impact that no band has rivalled since.
BrodyJayHart totally agree with you! without waters there weren't all the genious lyrics without gilmour no guitar solos and no powerfull singing and just imagine shine on or echoes without rick! nick was the perfect drummer for this band. his drumming is so soft and he really has such a good feel for the music...
Nah bro actually both are equally as good. David's music is shit without Roger's ingenious songwriting, and Roger's music is shit without David's guitar. They both NEED each other to function as songwriters cause on their own both are shit.
I would highly recommend for anyone interested in the similarities between these pieces to check out _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ by Claude Debussy. The opening melody is pretty much identical to these and it debuted in 1894.
I discussed this with my music teacher last week. He said the Prelude differs from the Phantom/Echoes in that it is not clearly in key. It floats around the tonic but never confirms. Echoes/Phantom clearly moves from I to VI and back.
@@peterfitton4529 please, can you tell me where exactly its the similarity? i've listened to the entire firebird for 3 times already and i just cannot hear it. not only that, but i researched about the conection between these two works and in relation to the chords and i found nothing
@@lacanni it first occurs at around 35 seconds into the 2nd piece of The Firebird, ie ,"Night: Kastchei's Enchanted Garden". It's not "chords" and neither are the two passages in Echoes and Phantom. It's a motif thatI includes a 5 note sequence descending the chromatic scale and then ascending the chromatic scale. The harmony is not exactly the same, neither is the attack but anyone with a functioning pair of ears can discern that it is essentially the same musical idea as used in the Floyd and Webber pieces. It also occurs a handful of other times later on in the piece. There are references to it elsewhere in RU-vid, for a start, including a lengthy discussion on one video about the fact that Echoes was released around the time of Stravinsky's death. Again, NOT the Firebird Suite (of which Stravinsky compiled 3), but the full 47 minute iteration of The Firebird, from 1910.
Roger Waters is a better musician than David Gilmour? Are you drunk? Arguably a better songwriter, definitely a better lyricist but as musician or a singer, not even close.
I don't agree here I think it's the opposite, imo the ultimate proof of that is the acoustic version of Shine on you Crazy Diamond in 2002, he made it his own thing that Roger couldn't do in a 1000 years. David was also to go to guy when bass lines were too complicated for Roger (Pigs, Sheep, Hey You) I don't deny Roger's skill for composing and lyrics but he is mainly a folk artist and have little to do with the progressive rock/blues/jazz flavor of Pink Floyd that's pretty much all Dave and Rick.
Shawn Bloe Do you mean seriously Momentary Lapse of Reason is good music? Oh my God ... Listen to it right after a PF-record from the 70's and compare. And wake up a little bit. Compare it then with Waters Amused to Death. There is at least some really good music there, and not superficial junk with lyrics on a child's level.
Biggest problem with AMLOR is the production... The band wasn't in a good state at that time both Dave and Rick had serious drug problem... But I take The Division Bell over anything by solo Waters, anytime of the day. I guess it comes down to musical taste I prefer the emotional mellow rock stuff over the G,C,D progression on several guitar and piano tracks.
Every time Echoes gets to the chorus, I now find myself doing the Christine Daae riff every time the guitar solo does the Phantom of the Opera overture. Example: "But something stirs and something tries, and starts to climb towards the lii-ii-iiiii-i-i-i-iii-i-iii-i-iii-iiiiight!" And I do the "sing for me" riff.
I've known about the whole Echoes/Phantom thing for ages. When I tell Phantom fans that, they throw a hissy fit. I just laugh because I know Floyd owns Webber's music any day.
Not real _Phantom_ fans. Gaston Leroux’s original novel is one of my very favorite books, so I utterly *despise* what Andrew Lloyd Webber did with the characters that Leroux created and am glad of any chance to tear Webber down.
There's a Procol Harum song called Conquistador from 1967 that uses a similar descending riff around the chorus part. I always thought Pink Floyd took it from that (possibly subconsciously) since the two bands toured together.
In the past 2 years I have written close to 200 individual songs myself, and I will say this, sometimes things end up sounding quite a bit like something that was done. Within western music we are quite limited in our note choice, and i myself will admit to having written multiple songs, played them for a few friends, then realizing that the chord structure or melody are quite similar to something else. For all we know Andrew Lloyd Webber may not have even listen to echoes. Coincidences happen.
The Floyd probably took it from The Firebird by Stravinsky, which he composed in 1910. It occurs, albeit briefly, quite early on in the piece. It may also occur in the shorter "Firebird suite" version from 1919 (although there are a couple of other Firebird Suites), but it is certainly in the full length version. In fact, Lloyd Webber probably took it from there, too. In any case, it's basically just going 5 notes down the chromatic scale and then back up again, probably goes all the way back to Bach or similar.
I'm so glad I'm not a fucking musician so I can say that indeed the intro to The Phantom sounds EXACTLY the same as one of the bridges in Echoes, without having to go thecnichal. Most people are not musicians and I think that, if they'd listen to the two bits, they'd agree that they sound exactly the same. If they don't agree to that, they're just Pink Floyd haters and Webber fans. I love both Pink Floyd and Webber and it doesn't bother me at all that he would steal from Pink Floyd, as long as he holds a candle to the original composition, which, in my opinion, The Phantom does beautifully.
This kind of thing though makes me so glad I'm more of a visual artist than a musician. Generally speaking, in the visual arts, as long as the overall *effect* of a piece is much different, visual artists seem to be pretty chill about borrowing "themes" from each other. This type of similarity in the arts would be like, "Oh yeah, they've used a similar theme but to achieve a totally different effect. Neat." I'm familiar with both of these pieces, and, since in my opinion they achieve different effects (and obviously attract different audiences) I'm glad they both exist.
1:57 Musical correction. In the context of the key is C#minor and the chords are: Verse: C#m G#m F#m G#, Chorus: C# G# F#m G#, Riff: C#m A C#m A C#m A E B C. Build up: B5 F#m D5 E (I think), Arpeggio Riff: C#m G#m E F#m Diatonics: C#m D#dim E F#m G#m A B, Non diatonics used: C# G# C D5. Webbers version is clearly Dm.
Stolen or not, The Phantom of the Opera is one of the greatest musical work ever. Waters should be honored. I honestly listen to the soundtrack every fuckn day. Theater + Music is so much more orgasmic than songs, even from a group like Pink Floyd.
"This is Roger Waters. He is the greatest musician of all time." that cracks me up (Im not saying hes not, I love him) Just funny the way you worded it. Good vid.
It is possible that Webber heard Echoes, forgot about it, years later the tune popped in his head, not recalling that it was from anything he had ever heard, he assumed he came up with it and used it. I'm not saying that makes it right (someone should have pointed it out to him at some point while writing Phantom), just saying that I doubt it was as nefarious as him just out right going, "That Pink Floyd riff is catchy. I think I'll use it in my work and hope nobody notices."
Definitely not. One of the top but greatest? That's why only 6 people gave you a thumbs up. It's like saying Roger Waters is the greatest musician. Hes a great song writer and a middle of the road bass player. I wouldn't put Gilmour in the top ten and i dont think to many others would either.
There's a similarity, but the pieces are clearly different. This is a coincidence or fair use. Imagine if artists weren't allowed to borrow from each other or modify a theme. Both musicians produced incredible music.
Both parts in question are a simple chromatic scale. Roger Waters did not write the chromatic scale, so there is no plagiarism. Waters is a intelligent musician and knows this, and that is why he never sued. Also, if you still consider this plagiarism, it should be noted that Waters is far from the first to use the chromatic scale in this fashion, so he'd be just as guilty of plagiarism as Webber is.
Waters asserted that Andrew Lloyd Webber had plagiarized themes from "Echoes" for sections of the musical Yeah, the beginning of that bloody Phantom song is from Echoes. *DAAAA-da-da-da-da-da* . I couldn't believe it when I heard it. It's the same time signature - it's 12/8 - and it's the same structure and it's the same notes and it's the same everything. Bastard. It probably is actionable. It really is! But I think that life's too long to bother with suing Andrew fucking Lloyd Webber
I fully support Floyd in it's various permutations and bodacious performances, Webber in his moving (and yes, bodacous) productions, music in all of its soul-lifting glory, and this wet-behind-the-ears (albeit maybe over-earnest) punk's allegations not atall. Perhaps while in still in high school, you can pay attention to the "statistical analysis" portion of math class and calculate the sheer high probability of a few chords appearing similarly in different musical pieces. It's almost like chefs riffing each other for using salt, pepper and oregano in their recipes. And parsley - don't forget that the parsley was also ued! For funzies, mine modern music for bars which are part of the "Hallelujah Chorus" in Handel's "Messiah". You could even do your Senior Year Thesis on the topic! Meanwhile, try to enjoy good music without digging so deeply for imagined embedded sinister plots. And, ya, oregano and parsley are both great in many versions of spaghetti sauce.
Webber responded to Waters an issue or two later (I'm going off memory, this was twenty years ago; Q apologized profusely to Webber, who sounded like he threatened libel), and Webber said he took the riff from the movie Gumshoe, which he scored and came out in December 1971. Problem is, Meddle had been out for over a month, and Webber may well have heard "Echoes" on the John Peel Show that broadcast in early October.
Not sure what to make of the fact that Roger got the time signature wrong (it's 4/4, and incidentally, Floyd played the theme in semiquavers whilst in Phantom it's in quavers), but the similarity is undeniable.
There's a Procol Harum song called Conquistador from 1967 that uses a similar descending riff around the chorus part. I always thought Pink Floyd took it from that (possibly subconsciously) since the two bands toured together.
My bad, I misunderstod your comment. I just bought a fender stratocaster due to my admiration for Gilmour. It has always been a dream of mine to purchase one and finally I did it. He's an incredible genius.
I did my research and I knew that Kubrik wanted him to do the soundtrack. I was just pointing out that sometimes coincidences can happen. Kubrik didn't steal the soundtrack from Floyd, and maybe it was the same with Webber.
:) "We cower in our shelters with our hands over our ears Lloyd Webber's awful stuff runs for years and years and years. An earthquake hits the theatre but the operetta lingers Then the piano lid comes down and breaks his f**king fingers It's a miracle"
Btw, Steven Schwartz admitted taking 7 notes from the Wizard of Oz and using it for his production of Wicked. It's the "Unlimited, together we're" . They are the same notes as "Somewhere over the rainbow." And Schwartz said that there's a rule that you can't take over 7 notes. So he stuck to 7. ALW, if he took those notes (which are just ascending descending scales) only uses 5. I guess he's legally saved.
Lol as much as I love pink floyd, and I'm a HUGE fan, I don't think Webber stole this chromatic run that pink floyd used. Coincidental things like this can just happen. Whats more interesting is the red hot chili peppers' "dani california" and tom pettys "mary jane" similarities. I will say that vanilla ice ripped off queen with ice ice baby tho lol. Sounds way too much like under pressure
No, Webber is a thief. He's known for shameless plagiarizing other stuff too. His most famous song in Cats sounds Identical to Bolero. No credit given. Also the lyric melody to The Phantom theme is also stolen. It's almost Identical to 'Till you' by Ray Repp, he even sued over it but lost the case because Lloyd could afford better lawyers with money he fucking stole from his music. With both blatant cases of plagiarism in the exact same song, you can't say it's just a coincidence.
I have to admit that the riff is very similar. I don't know if he definitely stole it, but even if he did, it's still a pretty amazing feat to take a simple riff and make what he did out of it. Honestly, if Roger himself didn't see the need to press charges, I don't see reason to make a big fuss. I say just take Webber's music with a grain of salt, and leave it at that.
Hey Everyone, just reading all the comments and thought I would share this book and website with you. Its all about this guy who is a massive Floyd and Roger Waters Fan and he reflects your passion throughout his entire book. May be worth a look. Its by Harry Bell and is available in the states and the uk i think. The book is 'Pink Floyd and Roger Waters Blew my mind' Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. x
@terryfink I work with a lot of rock bands and let me tell you, MOST of them have no idea about music theory. It would not surprise me if Pink Floyd didn't have a clue to what a 3rd, 5th, etc was. Have you ever checked out any videos by Slash or some of those 80s guys? No grasp of how scales/chords work. And they all tell explain with fret names, not note names. You can have a good ear and write music without knowing the first thing about how it works.
In interviews promoting Amused to Death, Waters claimed that Andrew Lloyd Webber had plagiarized the refrain ("riff") from Echoes for sections of the musical The Phantom of the Opera; nevertheless, he decided not to file a lawsuit regarding the matter. He said: Yeah, the beginning of that bloody Phantom song is from Echoes. *DAAAA-da-da-da-da-da*. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. It's the same time signature--it's 12/8--and it's the same structure and it's the same notes and it's the same everything. Bastard. It probably is actionable. It really is! But I think that life's too long to bother with suing Andrew fucking Lloyd Webber.
Its a chromatic five-note scale. While they are similar, ITS A FIVE-NOTE CHROMATIC. If Floyd had created some crazy scale, then it would be workable. But again: Five. Notes. Chromatic Scale. The timeing is similar, I will state that, but Its not anything you could really "rip off" because it is a scale, commonly accepted as such and taught in most music classes. Ask not if they ripped off: ask instead if it was unique enough in the first place. I don't think its a difficult concept.
See the thing is, the word "Stealing" is what bothers me the most about the vid and about the whole accusation. Pink Floyd did not invent that chromatic riff. Its such a simplistic thing to do that its most likely anyone who has played a piano or keyboard has already played it. Plus they are 2 completely different classifications of music. It makes no sense to call webber a theif for a similar intro. A half step makes a difference.
Ok, I def hear it -- it's 5 notes, down and up, up and down. Same rhythm. But there are many times I hear songs that have the same notes. It's the rhythm that usually doesn't match up. I you listen to Mariah Carey's "My All", it starts out the same notes as "In Sleep In Sang To Me". Also same five notes, slightly different rhythm. But the first time I heard it, it bugged the HELL out of me. Whether it's consciously copied, we'll never know.
I agree with StrangeJames85. As a guitar player I've sometimes come up with things while jamming that I then recognized as "hey, that kind of sounds like x song that's awesome".It's possible that I've come up with things that I don't recognize but that sound similar to songs other people might know.It happens all the time as there is only a finite way notes can be constructed. It is similar enough that perhaps Webber should give a cut of the proceeds to Pink Floyd but not necessarily malicious.
This dude is totally right. Roger waters WAS the genius in pink floyd, just do some research folks and see for yourself. It's evident once waters left the music went sour with no more creativity or edge that waters gave us, apart from a handfull of songs like high hopes were really good songs. Granted all 4 members were massively talented and it's hard to find a band who comes even close to there 70s and early 80s stuff.
@Macconator2010 Also after the albums Pink Floyd had a very successful tour of the world in '88 and then the tour of Europe and America in '94. Roger may have been responsible for the wall but did you notice that the two best songs on the Wall, Comfortably Numb (the solo mainly!) and Run Like Hell are co-written by dave gilmour. What does that say? And Roger fired Rick for the Wall which would have sounded so much better if Rick was involved.
Webber won the law suit filed by Ray Repp and was cleared. The lawsuit actually proved that Lloyd Webber DID in fact borrow music for "The Phantom Of The Opera"; he borrowed from himself and from a musical Webber composed in 1967/68; "Joseph and the Amazing Techni-colored Dreamcoat". Doesn't that mean then that Pink Floyd plagiarized Webber since "Echoes" (the song they accuse Webber of plagiarizing) wasn't released until 1971, a full 4 years after Webber composed the songs for "Joseph"?
the problem is that these days a lot of people who try to actively participate in these discussions have no concept of music and therefore think that a scale can be copyrighted. Next thing I sue someoen for copying my c major chord....
Roger could have, would have, should have. and he could easily win the case. But let's not ever forget that Rogers has a BIG HEART and certainly didn't want to bother.
Well done, I'm glad you made this video. If I had tried I would have just compared the tracks and not gone into the actual notes, or chords etc. I've told people time and time again, but until I get them to my record player they remain skeptical. Again, I'm glad you made this video so that I can quickly reference folks to it in the future who question me. I do support the Pink Floyd sound. But honestly I don't think they need additional support, nor have they since Atom Heart Mother.
honestly i'm like one of the worlds most obsessed pink floyd fans, love them, but this is not exactly suprising i very much doubt this is plagerism, it's a very strong rhythm for a start, very obvious and potent then it's also in a chromatic run to, so if you start on the same root, and u've got that rhythm in my head, there's a high probabality you'll hit the same or similar notes imo the same rhythmic patterns get used over and over by all musians, such is music
@Macconator2010 So I rest my case that Roger is not the greatest musician of all time. He may have been clever enough to come up with the Wall, I'll admit that however Pink Floyd went on without Roger writting the great songs: Signs of Life, Learning To Fly, One Slip, On The Turning Away, Sorrow, Cluster One, Poles Apart, Marooned, A Great Day For Freedom, Wearing The Inside Out, Take It Back, Coming Back To Life, Lost For Words and High Hopes.
@terryfink What bugs me about the bands I work with is that they feel that because Slash or Jimi or whoever didn't know anything about music and happened to get famous, then they shouldn't have to learn/understand theory. It's ridiculous.
Awesome video. I was looking for something just like this after a conversation I had with a partner at work regarding some different "musicians" ripping off Marvin Gaye. Long live PF!
Pink Floyd didn't find the chromatic scale, you can find many examples of those. ALW also uses chords all through the scale while Pink Floyd only uses the notes. Moreover if you listen through any ALW musical you'll feel stuff you couldn't even think to feel while listening to Pink Floyd.
Um 🧐 echoes music & most of the music from Pink Floyd was created by David Gilmour & Richard Wright, not roger waters 🤔 he wrote the lyrics usually AFTER the music was created 🤷♂️
How do you know this? How do you know exactly how they wrote music when they were in the studio??? Because from my research in an interview from Wright, he composed the piano Intro and main chord progression while Waters wrote the lyrics. Roger Waters wrote more songs than any of the other members as well was the chief architect to the structure of the album's. Do some research and stop talking out of your ass.
Andrew Lloyd Weber clearly did not copy Echoes. Having a similar note structure in one part of a song does not constitute plagiarism. This happens in a lot of music, because all music is built off of the same principles.
Actually, being one who's studied my scales, I know that a C# and a D flat are the same note, just differently marked on the chromatic scale. Seriously, play both on the guitar. They're exactly the same.
I am a Floydian as well, and as soon as I saw Phantom I knew there was a connection. This video proves (at least in my opinion) beyond a doubt that there is a connection between the two. We may never know what happened. I would like to point out one thing missing from this video, though. Waters brought up this in the 90s…when he was promoting his newest solo album, Amused to Death. Draw your own conclusions.
You need all of them. Roger Waters heavy Pink Floyd (I say this as Wall and Final Cut) and David Gilmour heavy Pink Floyd are both not as good as other works. I find it funny that Syd leaving is never mentioned in this debate. I mean I love Syd but I also love the path Floyd went without him. Just a thought
Gilmour is a master musician and a legend. Waters is too but you just can't compare the two. Pink Floyd was at it's best when they all worked together period. Neither Roger nor Gilmour made Pink Floyd what it was, Pink Floyd made Pink Floyd which included Mason and Wright.
@Macconator2010 I also remind you that the only thing Roger contributed to the song Echoes was the base guitar, CHECK ITUNES. And also David Gilmour is a master musician more than Roger ever will be. Listen to Momentary Lapse and especally Division Bell and you will see that Dave is so much more musically tallented than Roger. Roger is more of a visionary, An Idealist. Echoes being one of the greatest Pink Floyd songs leading into the hit album Dark Side of The Moon NEVER had imput from Roger.
My understand that Roger did write, but most of the time he wrote the lyrics, which were fantastic don't get me wrong. But as a band with a larger focus on music rather than lyric, the music has to count more. I am especially fond of Meddle, Dark Side and Wish You Were Here which all had fantastic music. As a musician as well, I have to say the music is more important in this band. That is not to say lyrics aren't important but in this band they are an addition to the music, not the focus.
i love webber, i love pink floyd.... just thought i'd get that out beforehand..... weirdly enuf, i thought the same thing .......when i lisened to echoes for the first time i was sure i heard that main, riff, if you will, before..... i'm glad i've lisened to this its made me think more about it......... BUT......... what the "riff" is.... is a scale.... it may be just an accident
First of all, hat's just a skeletal note structure, there is a possibility he took it from Pink Floyd, but that's assuming Webber even listen to Pink Floyd. I am a metalhead myself, doesn't mean I know all about metal, and I like rock n roll, doesn't mean I know all rock n roll. That said, I do find Pink Floyd boring myself. No hatred towards them, but songs that are 23 fucking minutes is something I can't really get into. Same thing goes for most prog rock bands. Not my cup of tea, but hey, if you like it, you like it, power to you. Anyways, I personally think that since Webber actually like rock n roll, and these two riffs sounds so alike, then yes, the probability says he did copy it, but we can't really know.
The Wall can hardly be considered a band effort. It's a Roger solo piece with the band's name. But in the time period giggan is talking about; Meddle, Obscured, Dark Side, these were all very collaborative and democratic processes during recording. And I think it really shows in terms of quality. It has a very distinctive soundscape you don't find anywhere else.
In my opinion, there was no copying. I fucking love echoes and pink floyd, but i also think the phantom of the opera is great too. The thing is, the 'copyed' section is basically a musical scale. Theres no telling how many songs have used it, but only these two were large scale. I'm pointing out that there is a gray area here, not just webber is a jerk or pink floyd is a jerk. Sorry for such a long comment, but i had to make this point.
In that case, I plagiarised Floyd when I was a four year old, too. Who hasn't ever run their hand up and down the strings as a kid? You can get the same notes sliding your finger up and down any one of the strings if you pace it right- easy on a ukulele.
All of this because both songs play a couple same chords? This happens in many songs. These two songs' riffs go onto different rhythms as well. And to complain about this decades after each songs release is clearly looking for attention. Sue or don't talk.
Anytime Floyd wants the litigate this, it's an open and shut case. It's so obvious that the two are so similar that a dog could recognize this! Easy money for Floyd!
You will have to double check your info my friend... Water IS the main writer in Pink Floyd (after Syd era) not Gilmour. Gilmour did participate to a lot of music writing though ! And they're both awesome musician.
Not trying to start a feud here but Waters was not the front man and certainly wasn't very responsible for the musical component of Floyd. You can thank David and Rick for that.
