A chief engineer worth his salt would have flunked the old design before it ever went into production. The bearing area in the connection simply doesn't pass the sniff test. The round pin bearing on a flat surface of the mating part has virtually no bearing area until material starts to deform elastically. Then you have the corner radius of the pin to further reduce the bearing area, leaving 1 square "blonde one" of material supporting the entire load of spinning the camshaft. As a bonus, the corner radius of the pin will act like it's own cam for disengaging the pin once the mating part permanently deforms (due to the insufficient bearing area). No wonder so many folks have issues with the old design. It is amazing they worked in the first place.
You are correct about the pin jumping out of the notch. The problem is the spring! Look at the spring on the side. They have lost about 30% of their strength and now they let the pin float and make a ramp so they move out.
I think you are absolutely correct on the spring. Some of these fail at such low mileage it still makes you wonder? It could simply be they just have to soft a spring from the get go and they can't force the oil back out of the hole and thus only engage partially even when brand new. But any way you slice it, the noise is from the pin not locking. 🙂
Currently own a ‘13 and ‘17 f-150 eco boosts. The rattle on the 17 is noticeable but nothing compared to my 13. I just bought the ‘13 but it’s pretty atrocious on cold starts since I don’t always want to do the delayed start (letting it roll over to build oil pressure)
Great video. That was the best explanation I've seen on RU-vid not only explaining, but physically showing what the issue is. I'm trading in my 2018 3.5 EcoBoost tomorrow for a 2022 5.0. My Eco has both the phaser rattle and the turbo rattle. I'm done with it. I'm not going to drive it just waiting for a code to pop or for it to throw time on an interference engine.
Drove a 22 platinum with 5.0 a couple weeks ago. Really nice pickup & seemed to have a bunch more power then previous years. Good luck to you with your new ride!
Jason the 5.0l also has cam phasers problems. It's both 3.5l eco boost and 5.0l up to 2020. 2021 Ford corrected the problems with their phasers. 5.0l does last longer but will get a cold start rattle . Biggest issues with all of them is not changing oil within 5000 miles or less. People are waiting till the light on dash to tell them to change the oil. Those " recommend " service intervals is correct. Oil breaks down period....
When was the last time this part was redesigned? People with 2022 Expeditions are having to have their cam phasers replaced, and May owners on 18-21’s have had to do it more than once. I am sold on the Expedition as long as I know the issue is fully resolved. GM has lifter issues they can’t seem to figure out. The Armada is very uncomfortable with a small third row. The Sequoia is ugly and the new one has no third row or rear cargo practicality. I really am hoping it is worked out. People are also citing transmission failures with the 10 speed, even around as early as 15k - 20k.
I thought the latest design was introduced in fall of 2021 but not sure. My coworker is doing phasers on a 19 raptor right now. Both intake vct units are toast & they are the old style. I have not done phasers on a 3.5 newer than 2020 yet. Has Ford still been installing the old design phasers into 2022 production? I just don't know. I'm skeptical that Ford has completely resolved this problem with the 3.5L. Unfortunately they don't offer the 2.7l in the Expedition.
I'm on my second go round with the phaser replacement on my 17 f150. They used the old phasers apparently when I had the repair about 7 months ago. The sound came back in about a month and was worse. I took it back in last week (just inside my 5 year warranty) and am supposedly getting the new part. I'm hopeful this will actually fix the problem this time!
I just took in my 2018 that I bought new in jan 2019. never had any phaser issue before this but never received any kind of letter about the software upgrades or any extended warranty. Service Mgr just said there are no longer any extended warranties available to me, standard drive train warranty expired January this year and that it sucks to be me. So I will be starting the customer support process by meeting with local dealership guy. Who knows, in the past he has worked with me(especially when i asked why his tech replaced a $500 part first ,which didn't fix the issue, instead of the $50 part which DID fix the issue.). then I will climb the corporate ladder.
Just got my 2019 F150 back today from getting these new phasers installed. I am praying I don’t get another check engine light or rattle. Before my truck would get the check engine codes p0021 and p0018 and go into almost a limo mode. It was really frustrating.
@@raincitywrench117my phasers are also rattling and I’m getting a code for exhaust cam position being over advanced. Feels very low on power. Trying to get the truck in to the shop to have it fixed soon, but it’s my only vehicle.
Why they didn’t just use a stronger spring is beyond me. Wouldn’t solve the issue completely but they wouldn’t have had all these recalls and issues to deal with.
23-2143 Bulletin shows HL3Z-6256-CD INT HL3Z-6C525-CD EXH but think the new numbers are: ML3Z-6256-A Intake ML3Z-6C525-A Exhaust. Just make sure the units have the metal cage over the spring and they will be the newest version.
I have a 2017 Ford Raptor 3.5 ECO…. Truck rattles every cold start . Once the engine settles down to operating tem. The truck rattled a little still if you press the gas and hold it between 1,500 and 2,000 RPM TRUCK HAS 93,000 miles 😢 Sucks that ford has to do this to all the eco engines with these cam phaser problems… im a ford guy but I honestly hate ford for this… I don’t recommend anyone buying a ECO ENGINE! Unless you want to have problems like this ….
Hey Guys Im looking at getting a 2017 Ecoboost Limited its got 64,000 Miles on it and I'm getting a really good deal if I pull the trigger, When I went to look at it and started it when it was cold the truck had a rattle for 2-3 second and then it went away, Im assuming its the phasers So I wanted to ask how is this new style phaser? Has it solved the problem or is it still something we have to fix 30-40,000 miles in. Also is their anything else I should be aware at or get looked at before I pull the trigger on this truck?
Are the intake and exhaust phasers (new) have the housing or just the intake ? I ordered all four and they sent me the intake with new housings but the exhaust are the old design. Should I return the exhaust and replace with newer design if available ?
Hey Mathew what does a cam phaser replacement job cost? Im local and my truck has this issue, and recently threw p0012 and p0024 codes when I was driving on the freeway, trying to decide if it’s worth it to get it towed and repaired or to cut my losses
Sorry about the delay. I can't say what the parts cost but the labor is almost ten hours with labor rates around $200 per hour. Wouldn't surprised with a repair quote over $3000
Have not seen one single pickup return after installing the third design. Ford just may have fixed it. The latest version is completely different and the locking mechanism looks much better. I caught a lot of flack couple years back when these engines were coming in left and right and stuck to my guns stating it's the locking pin design causing problem. Some said it's the oil pump, pickup screen, camshafts, mega caps, etc. Time will tell but still think I'm correct LOL 🤞
Hopefully! I just bought an 18 not realizing this issue was so prominent. It has the rattle. Working with dealership to have it fixed. Once it’s fixed I’m worried it will happen again
@@raincitywrench117 Thanks for sharing knowledge. When I tried to order that part# it shows that this will not fits with 2018 expedition, so sir have you installed it on that 2018 expedition? Does it work as the original one? Should I just ignore the fit warning that appears about the compatibility? Thanks in advance
@@zainalsalimi8948 If you have a 2nd Gen 3.5 ecoboost, the part numbers are HL3Z-6256-CD and HL3Z-6C525-CD, OR the newer 2020 part numbers ML3Z-6256-A / ML3Z-6C525-A. I would just try to get the newest ML3Z. You can read plenty more including all of the parts required for the job in the official doc here static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10204046-0001.pdf
They will never make a permanent solution, so the economy will revolve around us eventually and come back with a blown engine, 😂😂 Mine was done today, so I will find out if they put the correct part number and not the old ones that they still have in stock 🤦🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
Hello, can I ask for an honest opinion? What do you think about a 2015 Ford F-150 3.5L ecoboost with 104k miles, would it be worth buy as a long term vehicle? Are they unreliable? Is it a truck you’d recommend to someone who doesn’t really tow or haul much? Are there any big issue that can be detrimental? It’s also a 4WD.
That would be the first gen ecoboost. The second gen is much better. I would check for broken rear exhaust manifold bolts and leaking turbos. 2nd gen went with two chains and thicker side plates plus better turbos. I wouldn't say they are unreliable but over 100k is when problems start to pop up. With that mileage, the chain may be stretched and eventually throw cam/crank correlation codes. Unless it's been regularly serviced and everything looks great I would steer clear and keep looking.
Honestly, the 11-16s had less small miscellaneous issues, but the cam chain/tensioner issue can be catastrophic if left unfixed and they don’t have port injection. The 17-20s have this cam phaser issue, which won’t lead to a catastrophic failure. The new phasers also are fixed. These motors have more miscellaneous small issues and less dangerous issues. Realistically, there are over 1 MILLION 3.5 Ecoboost F150’s on the road, and out of any vehicle I’ve seen, I’ve been surprised to see how many 200,300,400, and 500k mile trucks there are out there with stock motors. I would say overall you can’t go wrong with any gen 3.5, but the 2017+ is better for sure if you can afford it. If not, the 15-16’s have a revised timing chain and tensioner, actually similar to the 17’s, so they’re considerably one of the more reliable years. If you’re okay with a 2.7(I wasn’t, I wanted to tune mine. Making 600hp now lol) they’re the most reliable by far. The 2.7’s have basically no major issues besides a few small manufacturing things that happened and were taken care of a while ago, as well as the oil pan leaks.
I can't say as I don't see the billing but the bulletin shows just under 10 hours labor so I'm going to guess around $3000 including the parts at our dealership.
@@raincitywrench117 I appreciate the reply. Love your videos. But geez that’s expensive 😵💫 One more question: will it harm the engine if the phasers aren’t replaced? (when they are making noise on cold start up)
@@13cardenk for the 2017+ motors, eventually you will start throwing codes and have a check engine light. The chance of doing catastrophic damage is low, but the chance of maybe needing a few more parts on a rebuild is reasonable. The 11-16’s also get cold start rattle but the chain and tensioners are what’s going bad, and those can fail catastrophically if not repaired.
Welp, my 2020 with 21k miles just rattled loud on a cold start today. Even slightly rattles on warm starts. What’s weird is it was quiet as a mouse yesterday. Oil changed every 3k and start stop was disabled day 1 so it’s def just a terrible design despite some guys claiming long oil change intervals causes it. Wonder if i should dump the truck once there swapped cause who knows if the new ones will last any longer then 20k. I would expect the timing system to last 150-200k on any new vehicle lol.
Well, that's a tough decision. I still have yet to hear anything though my sources if these new phasers are taking care of the rattle permanently but have not seen a return after the new design has been installed, yet.
@@raincitywrench117 well, it’s going in to have them swapped. I have a catch can installed and I’m wondering if I should take that off or do you think they won’t give me any hassle.
So I had these put in my 2020 and I now have a decel rattle in gear when it’s cold like the 5.0s have. Do you think they could have messed up a vct solenoid during the repair?
I don't think so. You don't have to remove them to do the phasers. If the noise started right after this service, unfortunately the valve covers will need to be removed and a thorough inspection done like checking to see if the guides are loose, worn or misaligned. Also check to see how far the tensioners are pushed out and for anything that looks not normal.
I can't wait to change these out in 4-5 years but when parts are harder to find and they're on their 6th revision! absolute junk products that ford makes. they couldn't pay me to take another ford product.
