This time I show the changes in power curve, from adjusting inlet and exhaust cam timing. Test subject being a 200whp NA 4age Buy merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age Insta : @garage4age @Garage4age
Greetings. Why didn't i test some combinations of Inlet and exhaust cam timing? Main reason being it would have ended up as a clusterf*&k of information. 2nd reason; I have tired different settings and at least on this engine adjusting each cam on its own will get very close, to what you are trying to achieve in the power curve/application. then just some fine tuning. Another thing to note, I have done quite a lot of changes on this engine and not revisited cam timing. Hence why i found a little power adjusting the exhaust cam, over my normal settings. Edit: Another note. reason why i only moved the cams in one direction, is my normal settings are about as far as i can go in terms of piston to valve contact. So these tests were adjusting the cams away from this
@@TurboAcki No can do sorry. cams in this engine are a mix and match of cams i've tried over the years. and aren't in there right locations, an exhaust cam in inlet side and inlet in exhaust. So I cant even tell you what the manufacturer recommended settings are. I don't bother with degree wheel as tune them for best results on dyno. but from memory its has around 5mm lift on intake, and 3-4mm exhaust at tdc.
@@twinchargedmr2 I adjusted the cam timing till the valves bent then backed it off a bit 😂. I have done some piston to valve measuring in the past. in this vid i moved the cams only in the direction that the clearance gets bigger
Very interesting. You can't imagine how lucky you are to be able to test and tune like you do. Very nice design on the t shirt,original,classy and fun.
i love your videos !!!! this is how videos have to be done... straight on the point with results clearly to see and not much blablabla about the coffee yesterday with aunti elisabeth and uncle pete and the poo size of doggy james today and more shit like many youtubers do in their videos
can do at some stage. had a few requests to do something with ignition timing. what would you like to see, just range of ignition timing and how it effects power?
@@Garage4age Timing and how much it changes Power, maybe different Plugs (Hotter/colder), Different Coils if possible (More or less kV). Thanks for the reply =)
One thing i'm curious on is where we can set the max/best timing, rather than 3k rpm like the olden days, 6k? 7k rpm? The quench on the 4age is pretty good so maybe it could be even lower at 4krpm for best max timing. Or weirdly enough would it be more effective to drop a degree or two at the top end due to such high piston and air speed (curious). I noticed on my carburated 4age it seems to stop gaining power around 6k for 35* degrees. Versus years back when i had a basic MSD and it was locked out timing I had no mid range, I have currently a digital 6al2 so now i have a timing curve and gained power and response in cruise/part throttle and midrange.
@@ardisian from what ive seen a lot of people run there 4age's over advanced. This is based on what i've found on the dyno on a few different engines. but also seems to be a pretty big window where they will make the same power if not knock limited. thanks for the suggestion. i can run flat timing across the rpm range and slowly increase it to show where each rpm point makes best power. Setup in this vid is out of action for a little bit, but will add it to the list
Advancing inlet tends to bring bottom end torque up, but kills the top eventually. Judging by the graphs, it could benefit from that. All and all, nice test!
On my CA18DET in my 180SX I used my exhaust cam shaft the had a bad half moon for the CAS and put that on the inlet had a spare block used another stock exhaust cam shaft on exhaust side not sure of the adjustment made with the cam gears but got 50hp at the wheels I also had GTR 444cc Injectors and plenty of mods to allow this running a S15BB turbos 280whp.
This really great stuff. Years ago I had a hillclimb car with a SOHC engine (Isuzu G161, in a Holden Gemini) that had an adjustable cam gear installed when the engine was built. As a SOHC application I was unable to adjust inlet and exhaust independently of each other, but it was still fun to play around with. It got dyno-tuned for two different settings, one "road" and one "race", with the markings for each scribed onto the cam gear for easy setting. On the "road" setting the engine was pretty tractable and coped with regular street driving duties no problems, and on the "race" setting it transformed into a lumpy little pig that didn't produce any usable power until about 4500rpm but then took off like a 2-stroke and shot up to 8500rpm in no time, developing considerably more hp up high than the "road" setting. I actually have no idea which way the cam timing was moving, I could only presume from its behaviour that on the "race" setting it was allowing a lot more overlap. The cam was a custom grind, based on a Datsun configuration, as the guys who built the engine were Datsun specialists, my Isuzu engine was one of the first ones they ever built and they used it and the car as a bit of a learning experience. I actually narrowly beat one of their Datsuns at one event (we were in the same class) and we joked afterward that they had done their job a bit too well, lol. Those were great days. Sadly that car is long gone, as are my weekends of competition. I just enjoy spectating now. In these times of ECUs and fuel injection and turbos it's gone beyond my knowledge. I can tune a set of webers and a mechanical dizzy with the best of 'em, but it's only the historic cars that run those old school setups these days. My neighbour has a Charger with triple webers, I've helped him get them running properly a couple of times, but aside from that my knowledge is pretty useless now. It's great watching these videos. I'm learning and enjoying it at the same time. Thanks for posting!
1- This is an AMAZING channel, you have a new sub. 2- I have to ask, if youre willing to share- Can I get a quick TLDR on the mods for this engine? Ive gone through quite a few of your posts, i see youre running 13:1 compression, 10 degrees of lift, etc- but its always a specific answer to a specific question. Would you be willing to share a more indepth break down of what youre running? Cams, springs, valves, what kind of head work youve done, connecting rods, what youve done to the crank, etc. Thank you so much for your time, cant wait to see more! I saw you make mention of 20v stuff, im really looking forward to that
stock crank. toda pistons, bc rods. all balanced. head has oversized valves and ported by myself. 300deg kelford cams & springs. Its nothing too fancy, just lots of time testing and getting everything working together right.
The problem with just looking at peak numbers is that in the real world, you're trying to move a heavy weight over time and that takes torque. If you change to deeper gears and more peak HP, that's fine, but without changing gears or reducing the weight, it's just not as much fun as instant torque.
yep, thats why my "normal" settings aren't setup for peak power. if was dedicated race car and kept it above 7500rpm the whole time i would use settings to take advantage of that.
@@Garage4age I drove a guys car back in the day, we both had the same car (1st gen Toyota Celica). He had a stock 18RGU twin cam, I had an 18 RC that was very modified (cam, header, manifold, carb, porting, ign...) and I drove his car... I wasn't very impressed. It's real advantage was keeping it in the upper RPM range. Just driving around town, mine was a lot better because it got up there quicker. I bought a street fighter type motorcycle that does the same thing, makes big wide torque and tears up the street.
@@karljay7473 nice, yeah top end can be fun but not very usable on street. You can have it at both ends to a point if get setup right though. and is something most people dont notice about engine in the vid. the most a stock 4age will make is about 100kw to the wheels being a blacktop 20v, right up top of rev range. if you look at the graph on engine in vid it makes that power by 5000rpm
5 degrees exhaust advanced is the best , wonder if advancing the intake as well as the exhaust would've produced even a better powerband , by introducing more overlap .
I like your videos. Very clean car. What were the cam specs for this test and what was the compression and cylinder head flow? Was your engine the stock 1578cc or larger? This information is useful for other engines.
Very nice channel, one on my favorites so far. Can you tell us if baseline timing is near to default? (110°ex - 110°in) or it is a little bit "agressive" (for exemple, 104°ex - 104°in), Thank you very much for your content :)
It has missmatched cams in it, and haven't measured the actual numbers. but the "baseline" is quite aggressive settings. would be well down in the 90's.
Hi there! First time I see your channel. I have a question about this video. It means that if they're is a slight rotation while changing the timing belt, it won't necessarily be a problem for the correct working of the engine? I heard changing the cams by 1° could kill my engine. I was so stresses on that day
Very nice videos. I haven't gotten through a lot of them but I probably will binge some of them right now. I'm just wondering about this dyno setup of yours. Is it set up at your home shop?
Thanks for the tests! nobody else takes such a systematic approach to the tests. I have 2 questions 1. What other changes have you made to the engine (intake or exhaust ports, compression ratio, moving Parts) 2. Which camshafts are installed or do you know the approximate total timing Thanks!
pretty much everything has been played with in some way on this engine. rotating assembly is all off the shelf parts. about 13:1 compression. ports modified and bigger valves. i have a mix and match of cams in there. they are around 300degrees advertised duration. or 260deg ish at 1mm lift.
Did you tried different length velocity stacks on different cylinders? For example on Honda CBR600 velocity stacks on 1 and 4 cylinders are 5 mm shorter than on 2 and 3. In theory it should give smother power curve.
Have found using the right length runner on all 4 gives the most overall power. But yes could fill the dips using a range of runner lengths giving a smoother power curve. but since would have to choose a length that doesn't work quite as good over all. would take a little hit in over all power to do it. each cylinder would need to be tuned individually also.
shame about your piston to valve clearance limiting the tests, I'd of loved to see you find the best overlap and then advance and regard both cams together keeping the LSA the same 😁
Yeah, judging by the tests here, I think going much more would start to take too much away from the top end. although it would be nice to see what it would do, see if the bottom end comes up anymore. As i said in a few other comments I have an exhaust cam in the inlet side, so there isn't a manufacturers recommended spec to dial it in at. but for some kind of reference, the 8 deg inlet retard run is at factory timing marks.
Can you give me a break down on what you did to the engine to make that power... Is it mainly head work? stronger bottom end? Bigger valves ? I watch every video and it's really impressive. I'm just curious to what u have done. Maybe you can give a dive on a good place to start
Pretty much everything has be played with. but its nothing too fancy. rotating assembly is off the shelf parts, 13:1 compression, oversized valves and porting. a lot of why it works is getting everything working together properly with the right bolt on parts. lots of testing
Where is the video which shows how you how you got the 200ph in the first place.. i think all i can find are videos fiddling with a few HP here in there but nothing ho how you got it in the first place.. this seems amazing.
Yeah come in a bit hot with this engine. Ive slowly developed it over many years. mostly pre having the dyno and making video's like this. Its at the point where gains that dont trade power from one part of the rev range to another, are hard to come by. Im not completely out of ideas yet though!
Was the baseline runs with the cams degreed as per the cam card? Think a better test would be doing baseline with the cams gears at zero. Then degree as per cam card to show differences, as most people just fit aftermarket cams as per the factory cam gear settings.
No specs on the cams, as they are mix and match from 2 sets and are in opposite locations as what they would normally be on the card. . so unfortunately i couldn't do this
5 Degrees by cam it's a huge overkill because it's 10 degrees by crankshaft. Real perfect tune up is not exceed 4 degrees, but as usual sweet spot can be find around +/- 2 degrees over zero cam setting. Some cams need to be adjusted only with dial indicators to the cams manufacturing overlap specs due very sensitive design.
Have to disagree. maybe in some case this will be true. if the cams happen to be bang on for what you are trying to achieve and the the engine setup, on the manufacturers recommended settings. going with what the manufacturer recommends or only trying a few degrees adjustment maybe leaving a lot on the table
Hey, will do it at some stage. was going to do it on my latest vid on the turbo engine, since quite a few people asked same thing. but was already a good 20 dyno pulls in by the time got through the main part of it
So it an under bucket set up, not a mild one....hey is Kennelly cam any good compare to kelford...I got a pairs.. intake 270 odd exhaust 255 odd standard shim looking for 120kw at wheel with micro tech lt10c silver top itb...and fujitsubo jasma extractor....also you run double valve spring or kelford beehive....thanks bro
Yeah lots of times. i dont have a specific video on it, other than the turbo version of this one which has stock cams. but there are bits and pieces spread through some of my videos. generally they like a bit of intake advance over stock
Hi, thank you for sharing the test and info all about cam timing. I was driving a mirage with Mivec originally 4g92 (1.6L) but I swap to 4g93 block (1.8L) When my car run on Dyno, it show top end was dropping. This guy has 8500rpm redline, switching to high profile cam on 5,500rpm. But start 7,500rpm, the power start dropping. I changed TB from 60mm to 70mm. Cam timing was follow original 4g92 1.6L may I know how to prevent power drop at top end. Should I retard my inlet cam?
If same head as the 1.6L now on the 1.8L. power has probably just been pulled down the rev range. head will run out of flow at lower rpm with bigger capacity. retarding the intake and advancing exhaust will make it hang on longer at high rpm. but lose throughout midrange. i suggest adjusting for best compromise on dyno if possible
20v already has vvt. so win win at both ends of the curve already. vvt moves the cam timing 30degrees. with aftermarket cams that aren't desgined for vvt, the vvt on/off locations may not be ideal and/or bend some valves. so then yeh, resorting to adjustable cam gears will do very similar to whats in this vid. when my dyno is more user friendly for fwd will probably do a vid showing the vvt on my 20v
if the cams are designed to work with vvt keep the vvt. otherwise if not bit more inlet advance usually works. but it depends on the setup and where the cams are to start with. good idea to at least check the cams are in the ballpark what manufacturer recommends. then adjust cam timing from there for best power, keeping in mind piston to valve clearance
@@Garage4age Sounds about right now that I think back to the FA motors. It's a little deceiving not having the Dyno plotted against RPM. How high is it revving?
@@Garage4age Ugh, duhh. I was fixated on the uncorrected real time pulls when I brought that up. Totally ignored the RPM at the end, was just looking for the little gains and losses throughout the pulls on that bit. Sounds a lot angrier than the blacktop I had years ago!
For what its worth you need to get your trumpets away from the body work. I can guarantee that you will be getting some interference. Learned a long time ago that trumpets and tiny starlets dont go well together. Even when you think you have clearance sufficiently its actually the sound wave you are dealing with.
Hi, I have tried trumpets that aim away from everything. there is zero change in power. some of the camera angles probably make it look like they are closer than they are. Some of them are in this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nqYkmCLrlEo.html As you would expect I have tried much more than I post on youtube. a few things have matched this intake, but nothing beaten it
Bravo! We are brothers from other mothers. Very few channels with this quality. I only build inline 4 twin cam NA motors. Find it very satisfying to extract all it can give. I have alot of tricks i managed to score from Yoshimura racing. Try out this calculator. It will be love at first site. www.bgsoflex.com/roughhp.html Compression Duration Intake port approach and profile> airflow Make Exhaust ports and headers smaller than you thought. Dont believe me. Try it. And alot of times, dynos and tracks dont get along. Airbox size Port taper from bellmouth to choke point should be undisrupted at a 2° included angle. Im working on building a set of rollerbarrel individual throttlebodies. Keep it up.
My "normal" settings are pretty much maxed out in terms of valve to piston clearance. So if i leave the exhaust cam open any longer = bent valves. same deal with inlet If open any sooner piston to valve contact. hence why i only move the cams in one direction . where i started from are not the recommended settings from cam manufacturer
@@Garage4age the vvt has completely failed. All it does is make a ridiculous knocking noise. I could try these adjustment and turn by hand to ensure clearance then take it from there.
@@clemonthopkin4513 you'll have to compromise top end or midrange. Or bit of both without the vvt. If try match the midrange power "vvt on" with fixed timing will also run rough at idle. So yeah best option is to replace the pulley if it's stuffed.
@@Garage4age I have tried a few vvt and they were all the same. I couldn’t afford a new one and the two cam gears came at a reasonable price. I really don’t mind the rough idle and the mid range is more important to me. I don’t spend much time in the high rpm range tbh. It will be nice to have that peak power for when I decide to go on the dyno.
@@clemonthopkin4513 setting it at about 20degrees advance is probably an ok compromise. (vvt on is 30) if your on stock ecu, fueling may no be amazing. but if o2 sensor in good working condition will sort itself out in cruise conditions. otherwise, did you check the vvt solenoid was working? this is a with on/off and swtiching at 6200rpmgarage4ag.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/vvt-on-vs-off.png
adjusting cam on inlet side does exactly what you would expect ...late timing improves the top end ...lots of o/l will mess with the bottom end ...and exhaust timing, well not much happens there . thing is your monkeying around with non stock cams, of which we have NO idea where the valve timing is or CLA...I think you proved that your original set up was very good
Yeah, main point i was trying to get across was actually try adjust your cam timing. so many people buy fancy adjustable cam gears and leave them on factory marks. Even if i had all the numbers Its not going to be relevant to anyone else engine. I can do the same thing on a stock cam 4age soon, but may not be very interesting being so tiny. possibly can do the same thing with an off the shelf cam set that i have all the numbers for if any interest. would be on a different engine to the one in this vid
@@tiitsaul9036 I don't think so. The pressure inside of the header between head and turbine is bigger then boost pressure, so you don't need valve overlap to create scavaging
Agree with old mate Richard for the most part. But choosing the right cam/s for the application is the main thing. big na cam/s may work on a turbo engine. but would be something suited to drag racing or the likes. as would want to run a suitably big turbo/exhaust side with low back pressure. thing with most turbo stuff is having you cake and eating it too. have a nice running engine at low rpm's and idle and having wide powerband too. along with being easier to make work, low overlap cams are the go to. I have tried some "na" cams in my turbo engine, and come up with a combo that worked well over most of the powerband. but it ran terrible below 2000rpm's due to big plenum single throttle inlet. so went back to the factory cams. i will likely revisit this now i have changed to itb's
That was very unimpressive when i degreed my b18b with a stage 2 cam it made a wolrd of difference up top and it wasnt no 13 degrees either more like a max of 4
@@Garage4age @@Garage4age i just street tune cars ,the difference in my setup was that i advanced my intake and retard my exhuast, when u just retard your intake cam but you leave your exhuast cam you are reducing lobe seperartion angle effectively killing any big top end gains you might have recieved , lower lsa = lower na top end
How do you gauge your results on the street? I know there are ways to do it as have done a lot of street tuning. Advancing the inlet more midrange . Retarding more peak, or more so holds on longer after peak. Exhaust cam is pretty numb in most cases. I don't bother with lsa numbers as mostly irrelevant. I've tried pretty much every combo of cam timing on this engine. The way it was done in this vid was just to simplify and get the info up
WHY did you not run split overlap tests? I.E. increase the lift at overlap for both cams- decrease the lift at overlap for both cams? That is what should have made big changes???????????
They dont actually effect each other that much. each cam was done on it own to simplify test. cams were only moved in one direction due to piston to valve contact the other way
@@samstewart4807 I've tired every different combo on this engine. I know what it does. The "baseline" run is set quite aggressive overlap wise and isn't anywhere close to what cam manufacturer recommends
@@Garage4age they do not effect each other? So if you have .030 lift at TDC overlap on both cams and you move both cams to .040 lift or .020 lift there will be no change???????/ That is not what I have seen in a similar situation. However I did not move one cam. I kept the lift the same for both cams- aka split overlap. and moved both cams when the lift is increased the power curve is moved up when the lift is decreased the power curve is moved down- but I am not a famous utuber- so u must be correct
@@samstewart4807 When i said they dont effect each other much. I meant if you were to adjust the inlet cam by itself, you wouldn't necessarily need to re adjust the exhaust cam because the intake was moved, it could have already been in the right place. You can simply adjust the intake cam to where you want, be it best peak power, or best over all power. lock it in place. then adjust the exhaust cam to do the same. will get it pretty close. If you adjust both at the same time its harder to see whats doing what. I haven't had a setup that likes to run the same tdc lift on both sides. the engine in vid is running over 5mm /4mm intake /exhaust at tdc. Also not sure what being on youtube has to do with it
advancing inlet and retarding exhaust brings valves closer to pistons. it was already maxed out in those directions on the "baseline" all my adjustments were gaining more clearance
have you ever tried narrow / wider LSA? comparing to normal setup, not only one side cam adjusted? e.g : retarded ex + advanced in vs advanced ex + retarded in
it pretty much does the same. narrow lsa more midrange / more overlap = more top end. wider / less overlap more top end. but better off to adjust separate. 5-10 deg advance on inlet and 0-5 retard on exhaust usually works good on these engines.
@@Garage4age Hi. I know this is an old thread, but I'm looking to do some cam tuning on a Nissan KA24DE. The cams are chain-driven, so endless testing is time-consuming and expensive. I'm curious as to your tuning philosophy- would you always play with intake first, then clean up with exhaust? Or is that just a convenience thing for video purposes?
@@davidschneider5285 Doesn't really matter which cam you adjust first. They don't effect each other as much as you would think. get one right, then get the other right and you'll be pretty close. unless your super clinical on dyno with engine temps etc, to accurately see the changes from fine tuning further. not worth doing. exhaust cam generally has a sweet spot where it will work best across most of the power band. intake will move the power around a lot more.
