I’m a sabbatarian and really enjoyed hearing two very strong arguments from both sides. I’m in favor of sabbath keeping as I love the rhythm and flow it gives my life and it has always been a very enriching experience for me and my family. However, I am more persuaded after hearing this debate that this is a matter of personal conviction.
Blessings to you brother, great and mature perspective. Continue to enjoy the life and rhythm it has created for you and your family. Nothing is wrong with that.
@@ReverendThunder thank you sir. I appreciate your studiousness and helping us really get a grip on some of these issues. I’m SDA and recently stumbled upon Des Ford and was astounded by how easily the investigative judgment is debunked. From there I started watching a lot of content on some shortcomings in Adventist theology and ended up bumping into the answering Adventism channel. That’s where I first learned about you and your ministry. I’m not by any means ready to leave the SDA church but I am persuaded we have some very bad errors that need addressed in our doctrines. At this point I feel like I can do more good in the church than out. Thank God we can come a long ways from where we were originally. That gives me hope we can continue to shed off the rest of our errors and press on into more Bible truth in the years to come. I still feel there is a lot of good in Adventism. God Bless you.
@@blueticks8423 that's very understandable bro. I respect your position and wish you the best in your journey and quest. Keep up the open mind and keep studying SDA theology and what we point out that are wrong with it. Your journey will be very rewarding, whatever you decide to do after gaining the knowledge. All the best.
@@ReverendThunder thank you for your encouragement🙌🏼 As I’m sure you know, this is not an easy thing to go through. It can be an emotional roller coaster.
Any chance that you, brother thunder, ever debating Doug Batchelor? I love to see that happen. He would be no match for you. You are on a different level and know what you're talking about.
adrwdf I would love to debate Doug or any other Adventist leader or apologist on this issue, but sadly they purposefully avoid debating Former Adventists like myself. I've issued several calls to them and made many attempts to their pastors and leaders to do so, but they ignore and decline. They have my book but won't respond. Last I heard, a committee was in place at one of their top universities to respond to me and my book, but the person that was asked to attempt a response declined and I've heard nothing else since. But I'd be more than delighted to engage them a respectful debates and dialogues on these issues. However, it's highly unlikely that that'll ever happen because of the level of information that an Ex Adventist like myself has on the intricate but erroneous theological structure of Adventism.
adrwdf I watched the whole live debate and was refuting many of Doug points before I was booted off it. Steve did well, but the environment wasn't conducive for a good, impartial debate. Steve did well despite, but wasn't prepared for the deep assumptions and wild prooftexts of Adventism. I even did a video response to that debate.
@@ReverendThunder Hie brother. May i have the link to that debate review? I thought Steve Gregg wasn't really prepared as well for the debate since he didn't know all sda proff texts and how they butcher those scriptures. Otherwise he is a very good bible teacher.
This young man explains himself very well. In fact, I believe his argument is true. It makes much more sense to the scriptures of the New Testament and the full price Jesus paid for our salvation. He doesn't need to twist scriptures around like we SDA do.
I am Truly Truly Blessed by you Elce, to see such a Peacefully, Truthfull, Scripturaly sound and Strong, Relentless Warrior for Christ. I hope and pray for those who choose to stay and hold judgment over us, who finds All Rest in our Lord Jesus Christ, that the knowledge of the Truth from the Holy scriptures with the Holy Spirit Given, may Pierce through their lies that they were once taught to believe and may set them free from it. Amen
Perfect, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Im truly praying for those who are ignorant to the truth, that they will come to the knowledge of, what it means to rest in Christ alone.
Where will you be without a Lord Who was crucified on a Friday, and raised Himself from that death on Resurrection Morning Sunday, thereby freeing all who love Jesus from eternal separation from God and Heaven via death…. Please read Galatians, Ephesians etc again.
We as Seventh Day Adventist Christian must not be afraid of the "Thunder" storm no matter how fierce it gets.God does not give His children a spirit of fear,but of Power,and Love, and a Sound Mind! We must stand up for the Truth of God's Word! If we dont stand up for something,! We will fall for anything, or even everything!
I'm not a SDA, I do Bible study with them but GOD said he Blessed the Seventh day and set it apart( made it Holy) Revelation 20:6 says Blessed & Holy shall share in the FIRST resurrection, where the 2nd resurrection has no power. idk but keeping the Sabbath is a blessing since Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.
Soon enough, you'll be sucked into the falsehoods of SDAs. The blessing of the Sabbath under the Old Testament is irrelevant where New Covenant teaching is concerned. Absolutely, the Sabbath was indeed made for the man, and not the man for the Sabbath. But you Sabbatarians and wannabe Jews have no idea what that means.
My experience with Adventism is the law, the ten commandments is understood to be eternal. Of course that is not possible as they apply only to an earthly human context. The ten was part of a contract between 2 parties...... Israel and god. A Covenant Contract. Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. But this is challenged by adventism. This convent law had a Beginning with Moses and and end with "The seed", Christs Death. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. The law was ......ADDED.......till the seed should come.......... A finite system of law for one Nation only. The law that Adam and eve broke is not even in the ten commandments. Some thoughts........
Now I see how he schedule so he can try to fix the damage on Saturday. Hahaha. Very smart. But I believe you got schooled and haven't even completed romans
This brother has a complete misconception of Col. 2:16-17. What did Paul mean when he wrote these verses. To understand these texts there is a key word in these texts, namely “therefore”. When we use this word it means that something has happened or took place before these verses. So, we have to go back to verse 8 onward to understand verses 16 and 17. We cannot just take a text and build our believes on that. Scripture interprets scripture.
I've written a 22 page exegetical exposition of Colossians 2. Perhaps you can read and refute it. Here's where you can read or download it for free: drive.google.com/file/d/1HOL9XHXjiPgzRvEuLUmmPnX-q2t2lLyK/view
Elce needs needs mercy.let's pray for him.He's fast becoming like a loose Canon.He reminds me of Dathan and korah in the time of Moses.Humbleness is a virtue,Hope he will comeback to his senses,nevertheless we still love him.
I wished you guys had gotten into Colossians 2. When I was sda this was a thorn on my side and I see now why as Col. 2:16 is the achilles heel of sabbatarianism whether SDA or nonSDA. :-(
Colossians 2 was speaking to commandment keepers. These were people amongst heathens and hellenised people were worldly. The heathens didn't keep commandments so Paul said don't worry about what they say to you about keeping the sabbath. Keeping commandments make you set apart/holy. John 14:15
@Jack Tower Go back to chapter one it explains that his audience are the saints. Saints are commandment keepers. Col 1:2 KJV To the 👉🏾saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 14:12 [12]Here is the patience of the 👉🏾saints: here are they that 👉🏾keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.👈🏾 What's funny is you called me a liar when I posted book chapter and verse in my first comment. Are you calling the words of the Messiah a lie? You merely came with emotion. Be careful with your choice of words.
@Jack Tower Colossians 2:16 [16]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the 👉🏾new moon, or of the sabbath days: Heathens didn't keep these things. If a heathen started to keep the commandments the other heathens would give them a hard time. Like if you started keeping the new moon, sabbath, dietary law etc your family and friends would give you a hard time. This is speaking about the new heavens and earth it was a prophecy. Isa 66:22-24 KJV 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from 👉🏾one new moon to another, and from 👉🏾one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and 👉🏾look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. The way you break down paul's writing makes it seem as if you can be lawless with no order. Simply not true.
@Jack Tower please don't respond without book chapter and verse, for I care not to hear your simple opinions. Show me one place where the disciples ate unclean food or said you don't have to keep the sabbath. When did Christ say that? Can't find it anywhere!!!
@Jack Tower Wow I see now that you're a reprobate who worships Paul and you have no decorum, wisdom, decency or order. Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of 👉🏾lawlessness👈🏾. I'm not an SDA you ASSumer. I just follow the ways of the Messiah. He kept the sabbath so I do as well I have never read anything that says don't keep the fourth commandment. From your logic I should be able to break into your house take your things and you shouldn't be upset with me because from your understanding we don't have any rules or guidelines. You sound stupid by saying all the laws were a indictment. The sacrificial laws were. Laws dealing with rape, homosexuality, murder etc are very good and still are in play you have to have something to be judged by. Paul himself said romans 7:7 👉🏾What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. 👈🏾👉🏾Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”👈🏾 Romans 7:12 So that👉🏾 the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good👈🏾
When it comes down to who to listen to and what to follow God made it clear on the mount of transfiguration. Moses was there representing the law, Elijah was there representing the prophets, and Jesus was there representing His teachings and the new covenant. God could have said follow Moses law or follow Elijah. But no, God himself said specifically to listen to Jesus and spoke nothing of either of the other two.
What does there being morning and evening on each day 1-6 mean? What does it signify that there was morning and evening on those days? Whatever conclusion that you come to that there was morning and evening is, then whatever your conclusion you have for that is, that conclusion does not exist on day seven.
Brother Elce, It seems like when you were a sabbatarian that you were more reminiscent of Paul before his conversion and now you act more how Paul acted after his conversion. 💭
I am a Seventh Day Adventist Christian, and there are no arguments presented will persuade me to turn away from keeping the Sabbath.! There are so much Scriptural evidences that God required all of us to keep His Sabbath Day Holy! We cannot twist and turn the Scriptures to suit our own opinion, of how Gods written Words should be.
You're not a Christian. You're an SDA, a pseudo Christian cult that fancies itself to be special, Christian, keeping the law and Sabbath, and is God's end time remnant church. You're brainwashed and in a very anti Christian cult and refuse to investigate things for yourself. But that's your problem. Hopefully the Holy Spirit opens your eyes one day in order that you may see.
" For I am persuaded that neither death nor life,nor angels nor,principalities,nor powers,nor things present,nor things to come,nor height,nor depth,nor any other shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom.8:38-39
@@applerose5811 Christians can claim this, not Adventists, especially given your false doctrine of the Investigative Judgement and Sinless perfectionism.
Woow. Once and For all. That part got me. So the sabbath rest is what Jesus did om the cross when he said it is finished. Paying for our sins once and for all
Blessings bro, yes sir. That's why He invited all to come to him for rest, rest for their souls (Matt. 11:28-30). The Sabbath is not the real, ultimate rest of God. The Sabbath only foreshadowed it. When we come to faith in Jesus, we enter into God's rest.
If the sabbath is not important and a command, God wouldn't have created an extra day. I am very sure God was able to just make 6 days period. Those who are against the sabbath are prone to be atheists or to think that the creation week are not really 6 literal days. Therefore they mistrust God because He says:" by the word all things were created." When He gave his commandments He says:" i am the lord your God who brought you out of egyt, out of bondage, out of slavery." How can He then put them in the bondage of the ten commandments? Brothers and sisters! The 10 commandments are all about who we worship. They are the markers between Him and us. Weekly sabbath is still valid today as matthiew 24÷20 reveals that jesus expected the believers to keep it after His ascension to Heaven. The sabbaths of colossians 2÷16 are understood to be sabbaths( holidays) pertaining to the rituals of sacrificial ceremonies. These sabbaths could fall on anyday other than the 7th day command. Brothers and sisters be carefull. The law of God is not burdensome nor bondage. All these commandments are doable. Philippians 4÷13 says:" i can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me." The law of God stands as long as He requires obedience and as long as good and evil must stay distinctive. By the way read Hebrews 5÷9.
vuya ki Paul knew the Law better than you or I ever could. And he said by the Holy Spirit that the Law (all of it) was given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). ...that before faith (in Christ) came everyone was shut up under the Law (Gal 3:23) but faith coming we are no longer under the Law (Gal 3:25) ...whoever seeks to be justified by the Law they are cut off from Christ and they fall from grace (Gal 5:4) ....to the Romans he says that the Law works wrath, (Romans 4:15) and that by the deeds of the Law, no man can be justified (Romans 3:27, 28) He says that we who are in Christ are now no longer under the Law (Romans 3:19; 6:14; 6:15;
Ian read all these scriptures with no understanding of what he was ready, hence why he could not justify or support his point. If the sabbath was that final rest that God wanted us to keep it, then why did He speak of another rest that remains for his people ? Hebrews 4 vs 8 - 9.
I recently wrote this one. You can get it from Amazon: www.amazon.com/Sabbath-Propositions-Mandatory-Salvational-Sabbath-Keeping/dp/1086686004/ref=mp_s_a_1_47?dchild=1&keywords=the+Sabbath&qid=1592423124&sr=8-47
@@setapart3452 this is an exegetical exposition I wrote on Colossians 2. It's a free download. drive.google.com/file/d/1HOL9XHXjiPgzRvEuLUmmPnX-q2t2lLyK/view
And by the way! I am not a biblical scholar, Bible student or pastor, but even I ( By God's Grace) can see that Paul in Romans chapter 4 is speaking of fasting and In Colossians 2, the Ceremonial law. The phrase: "Handwriting of Ordinances" clearly points to the ceremonial law.
@@heavenlystars6533 you are Bible illiterate and a biblical fool. The entire Jewish book of the law was abrogated when a nes priest and a new covenant and a new law was established. Leviticus 23 lists the sacred Jewish feasts. Sabbaton is the first feast listed. Adventist Judaizer dogs ignorantly pontificate that the Hebrew ritual law of sabbaton was and is a moral law. Wrong, and ignorant. Jesus of Nazareth brought the weak, useless, and obsolete ministry of condemnation and death to its inevitable end. The entire Jewish system was abrogated at Calvary. Adventist demonic cultists are asinine ignorant wannabe Jews going to eternal hell with a K.J.V. in one hand and a copy of great controversy in the other. Happy sabbath heretic
Ian Boyne strayed from the original point and missed the premise of Elce's original argument which was that he disagrees with Sabbath being kept as theologically significant for salvation.
Correct. But I think he purposefully was trying to throw me off and kept talking over me because that point alone knocked the wind out of his arguments and views. At the heart of it, that's what mandatory Sabbatarianism boils down to.
Amen and amen. I do not have an issue with those who observe the Sabbath...my issue is the same as Elce...it's not a requirement for salvation.❤ One love, one true God, one people❤
Jesus was a Jew, and as such He kep the Law of Moses right up till His death. The 12 disciples of Jesus were also Jews even after His resurrection, they were still Jews. It was not until after the Holy Spirit was poured out on them that their understanding was opened up as to what Christ had achieved through His death. Paul (Saul of tarsus) remained Jewish after his conversion, so that he could win Jews to Christ. That was his choice, but he did not count it as having any value for saving faith in Christ. He counted all the things of the past as dung that He might win Christ.
@Michael Heathman The coming of Jesus Christ did not remove natural Israel or natural Jewry from the earth. Jesus was the Firstborn of a new Creation. This new creation is neither jew nor gentile in character. However, this did not remove the natural line of Jacob from the earth or the Mosaic religion that they practiced. Judaism was superceded at Calvary - not obliterated. Jesus opened the way up to come to the Father. This did not change the operation of earth or its diverse society. In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Gentile. But Jews continue to this day as do Gentiles. There is a physical reality still and it stime is not yet finished. Paul became a new creation in Christ, and he counted all his past learning and practices as dung. But he still acknowledged the reality of his human brethren. In Romans 11:1 he states that he IS (as toi his earthy heritage) an Israelite of the seed of Abraham. In Rom 9:3 he speaks of his fellow breathren according to the flesh; he does not deny his heritage as to his earthly existence. 'Judaism' to coin a phrase, even in its most purest form - strictly Mosaic, still exists, but it has no 'currency', with God. Paul tells us that Jews still existed; Luke records that fact in Acts. Presently, the temporal realm co-exists at the same time equally as the spiritual realm exists.
@Michael Heathman Do you meran Ellen G White when you say Ellen? But the issue of Judaism still exists regardless of its inability to please God now that Jesus Christ has established the way to God. God is not yet finished with the House of Israel - as a nation of Jews. As long as this material world exists God will fulfill all His promises concerning the House of Israel, and as Isaiah says - Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end." and to this Paul agrees - Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: " The wickedness we see in the land of Israel will one day cease, and they will as a nation worship the Lord of Glory in spirit and in truth. Tel Aviv will no longer be a den of iniquity. Bloodshed will cease, empty religion will cease, the tongue will no longer blaspheme nor lie nor speak deceit. Religous paraphenalia will be a forgotten thing of the past. They wil not worship God in vain any longer. You know a Christian by their love for one another, but that love for one another has to be established in the first place in loving God with all your heart, mind and soul and strength, which love requires obedience as its fruit - and thus we come back to pursuing holiness in all our conduct - Hebrews 12:14 also Romans 6:19, 22; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Epheisans 4:24; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:7; 1 Timothy 2:15; Titus 2:3.
Elce you Rock! I wish Ian wouldn't interrupt so much when you state your case extremely truthful and biblical case. God bless you Elce and may Christ continue to use you mightily. ✝️
Yeah, I thought the same thing too - about the interruptions! Elce would remain silent, listening, while he made his argument - but then he would run off as Elce presented his 😏
In Rom 14 paul is addressing matters of preference or choice not of principle.Sabbath observance is not a matter of preference that's reason it was written by God's own finger. Brother Elce please stop wasting our time.
Eric Henry Jnr correct. "Within" the gates of Israelite homes, cities, etc., is exactly right. The rest of the world (Gentiles) were not and are not "within" the gates, homes, towns, and cities of Israelites. I'm not "within" the gates or borders of America. American laws aren't binding on me as I actively live in Jamaica.
@@ReverendThunder haha .you have absolutely human wisdom. God has jurisdiction on the whole earth and on every individual on the face of the planet in time past and now. Only jews were receptive to the voice of God and God expected them to preach or to show the whole world or to be an example to the whole earth. Abraham is the father of all the believers. And these are expected to walk his godly way.
Very good point. Jesus is not our example in Old Testament law-keeping although He is our example in moral living, spirituality, ethical conduct, love, compassion, endurance amidst suffering, etc.
So good to hear some one agree. Jesus earthly ministry was as Israels Messiah and to fulfill Israels Laws and Prophets. Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We serve a risen christ and Paul is our pattern as an Apostle of the Gentiles. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Israel is now blinded and we operate in the time of the Gentiles. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. dont know if you agree? But just putting it out there.
This young man is lost,he has come up with his own interpretation of the scriptures,i think he benefits from what he is doing than when he was an SDA. He is being used to misleading others who don't know the bible and don't understand it.
If you read and study the Bible, it is perfectly clear that the Sabbath is still valid. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to keep another day holy. Isaiah 66:22,23
Thanks for your response. That passage is properly addressed in this presentation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_g5C5fZ2cps.htmlsi=fvN80y8E05_Y9kFg
Another excellent interview - I had fun and enjoyed this one as I did Part 1...but I wished Ian hadn't been interrupting so much! I'm a non-sabbatarian and his arguments would not cause me to seek a sabbatarian church. 😀.... I agree to your view that sabbath keeping is not obligatory - as Adventism teaches - but that of personal conviction, indicated in Romans 14:5-6 The Scriptures quoted by Ian - and Adventism - as "proof" for sabbath keeping, I see them as "hints and innuendos," lifeboat tactics, straw-grabbing!" It was the women who rested according to their custom, in Luke 23:56. That verse is cross-referenced with Mark 16:1. The disciples certainly would not have been "resting" after Jesus' Crucifixion! And if the literal sabbath is being advocated in Hebrews 4, as argued, then it goes against the Gospel of Salvation by Faith. What is glaring in the NT, absent in Jesus' teachings, and likewise his Apostles, is any teaching on sabbath- keeping. Jesus wouldn't have left out something so fundamental, so vital to salvation. I mean, He came to die in order to save Humanity. If one wanted to talk to a large gathering of SDA'S, when would you seek them out? On a Saturday - their sabbath day - of course; and this is why Jesus - and the Apostles, thereafter - went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath. It wasn't to rest and worship God but to teach the Jews, who were the possessors of the Mosaic Law/the Ten Commandments - (the Sabbath) - the Spirit of that Law. Hebrews 4 speaks to spiritual rest for Christians - not literal rest or else Jesus' words in Matt. 11:28-30 would be empty and pointless. I like the term, "Missional and descriptive not exemplary and prescriptive in relation to Paul's going to the synagogue on Sabbath day. 🙂 The Bible, taken in its entirety; scriptures taken in context, is clear: The Sabbath was specific to the Nation of Israel and wasn't kept by the surrounding Gentile nations. The Gentiles mocked the Jew's Sabbaths when Jerusalem fell (Lam. 1:7) Before Christ came, Gentiles who wanted to serve the God of Israel had to be circumcised and adhere to Jewish law - and known as Proselytes; (It's the reason they came out in large numbers on the Sabbath to hear Paul's preaching that they no longer had to be proselytes in order to worship God); Timothy, Paul's "son in the faith," though half Jewish, half Greek* (Gentile*) was considered a Gentile by the Jews, and not allowed to enter the Jewish Temple; Jesus, Himself, made no mention of the Sabbath when He was approached by the Jewish man, in Matt. 19:18-19, where He quoted 6 out of the Ten Commandments; Letters sent to Gentile churches, after the Council in Jerusalem, made no mention of the Sabbath (Acts 15:23-31); All of 9 out of the Ten Commandments are referred to, in various ways in the NT, with the exception of the Sabbath Commandment. In conclusion, the Book of Revelations, which speaks of Christ's second coming, the New Heaven and New Earth, and the sort of people, who will not inherit God's Kingdom, cannot be in error, or an accidental oversight, when it made no mention of Sabbath keeping, or the fate of non Sabbath keepers. The God of mercy would have surely given final warnings to "Sabbath breakers" ....and so I choose to remain a non-sabbatarian. Oh, I almost forgot! In today's modern Jewish community, if a Jew wants to marry a Jewish woman, he has to be circumcised and follow the Jewish laws and customs - becoming a Judaizer! Generally, a Gentile can enter a synagogue on the Sabbath Day but is not allowed to take part in certain ceremonies relating to the Sabbath as any research, on Jewish websites, will show that the Mosaic Law/Ten Commandments - and especially the Sabbath were specific to the Nation of Israel, the Jews - Alone! Blessings, Thunder! 🙏🏾
Many Christians were martyred for Jesus Christ, and they gathered as a church on Sunday to worship the Lord. I'm sure their salvation was secure. They died not for worshiping on a certain day, but for Who they worshiped in Spirit and Truth. Jesus directly gave the gospel to Paul, and we cannot disassociate the Gospel that Paul preached from the four Gospels. They support each other.
I imagine that Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, Swendenborgist, and others like them say the same when a member discovers the errors of their positions and leave. Rather than resort to unthinking platitudes and jargons of your particular sect or prophet, why not critically and biblically respond to the arguments I proffer? That would do much good.
That was epic! Very composed and intelligently executed pastor Lauriston. Contrasting with Mr Boyne who interrupted constantly and got very emotional at times. Why did he constantly try to define you by who you are not ( former SDA firebrand) rather try than who you ARE (born again believer firebrand) when he introduced you? Hmm... I never considered the point that circumcision was a requirement to qualify a man to keep the Sabbath, so therefore, if that prequsite is moot, then it's conclusion must be as well. That is a powerful argument that seals it for me. Keep being blessed bro!
Blessings bro, thank you. Some people are settled in their ways and approach things a particular way. Mr Boyne was one of those. Yes, that argument is biblically and historically incontrovertible. I thoroughly prove this in the books I've written. You can check them out on Amazon. blessings to you.
The Acts 16 is completly breaking sabbath and setting it aside. No Jew in the Law would ever begain a jorney on the sabbath. The scrpture says the meet her by her by the river and continued on to her home in Thyatira. Verse 16 is her conversion of her and her family after hearing the gospel.
People who was associated with you are the worst ones when they turned against you,just like how Judas was one of Jesus's disciples,who eventuality betrayed Him with a kiss.
I would like to learn about your convictions now, because you have not said anything yet. Only explaining your problem with the teachings and beliefs of the SDA church.. So what is your truth?
Christian of Seventh Day Adventist woship on the Sabbath is simply follow what Christ said He is the Lord also for the Sabbath. Jesus is surly come very soon because follingaway will come first
Is the rest Jesus offers in Matthew 11 talking about a weekly Sabbath? Because the root of the Greek word for rest in Matthew 11 is the same Greek root word used for rest in Hebrews used like 8 or 9 times. If it's not a weekly Sabbath rest in Matthew 11 then would it be one in Hebrews? Also Hebrews says Joshua ( who was a seventh day observer) never gave the Israelites rest! So if Joshua a seventh day observer straight outta Egypt, Moses successor, one of the only first generation Jews who directly received the Mt Sinai covenant could not give the Jews rest what make Sabbatarian think that they will enter God's rest by keeping the Sabbath. Sabbath Keeping is not sabbattismos nor is it keeping God's rest. That is why Hebrews refers to "another rest" (i.e. one that is other than the seventh day Sabbath).
The word of God clearly stated that ,If we break one of the least of His Commandments,and shall teach men so,he shall be called least in the kingdom. Show me one text in the Scriptures where it is said that the Sabbath was especially designed for the Jews! and the Gentiles were not required to keep the Ssbbath ?
God has given his church a guideline .aka the ten commandment . God's guideline is perfect , holy , just, pure, and good . The seventh day weekly sabbath is part of God's law .. You have a problem with that ... Please accept my condolences.
@@anokye83 the Sabbath is relevant to those who consider it relevant. It's not a requirement for salvation. It's not mandatory to be kept by every Christian or all humanity. It will not affect one's standing with God one bit. It's not an integral part of the Gospel nor New Covenant faith. I hope that's clear to you. Now, what's your actual point regarding the Sabbath?
@@ReverendThunder I'm wondering why God will bless and sanctify a day and make that day holy only to abolish it without scriptural reference, what's the purpose of the Sabbath?
I honestly don't even see how the sabbath rest is eschatological in Hebrews 4. We rest as God rest when we believe. This was not a physical rest. Hence Jesus saying "my Father is working" on the sabbath. The other day Hebrews talks about is Today. The Sabbath rest that remains therefore has to be entering into the gospel and nothing else. Christ was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world and God's work has been finished since creation.
These assumptions and arguments are addressed and refuted in this presentation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bEybcPPXC6c.htmlsi=wR2oM4MbI0U6LUzh
Jubilees regarding the Sabbath. Brother Elce needs to read what it says about the origin of the Sabbath and to whom it was given: "And to this (JACOB AND HIS SEED) it was granted that they should always be the blessed and holy ones of the first testimony and law, even as He HAD SANCTIFIED and blessed the Sabbath day ON THE SEVENTH DAY. He created heaven and earth and everything that He created in six days, and God made the seventh day holy, for all His works; therefore He commanded on its behalf that, whoever does any work thereon shall die, and that he who defiles it shall surely die. Wherefore do thou command the children of Israel to observe this day that they may keep it holy and not do thereon any work, and not to defile it, as it is holier than all other days." Furthermore, the statement using "alone" does not say that the Sabbath is for Israel alone, but that Israel alone as a nation was sanctified to keep the Sabbath. And the Creator of all things blessed it, but HE DID NOT SANCTIFY ALL PEOPLES and nations to keep Sabbath thereon, but Israel ALONE: them alone he permitted to eat and drink and to keep Sabbath thereon on the earth."
@@elijahcunninghamofficial7379 there were so many things I couldn't get to because Ian wouldn't give me a chance to properly defend my points, explain, respond to questions, and his constant veering into other things.
@@ReverendThunder ok...I understand....it was a good debate though...I am a young preacher whose desire is to be a certify pastor. I don't like the way Christianity is going on in Jamaica...Jamaica has adopt a lot of America Christianity...I think my calling is to defend the Christian faith by preaching the true Gospel.
Bad choice of verse to make point by Boice with Romans 14 :17 to prove everything being talked about is about food. The verse says the Kingdom of God is NOT about eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace. This verse talk about what the Kingdom of God should be about and what it should not be about and what it's not about is eating and drinking and what the Kingdom of God is about is righteousness and peace. Here is a question which is more like God's rest? Righteousness and peace or eating and drinking. I think that righteousness and peace represents the type of rest that God is looking for us to have and represents the state of being we should be in for the type of day or days that one observes as in verse 14:5-6. But in defense of everyone in these type of apologetics I think that during the first century food and circumcision were more critical hot button issues than Sabbath keeping. In the first 20 yrs of the church I think the focus was way more on converting jews than on winning Gentiles especially with Peter and James the Just. Even Paul "the Apostle to the Gentiles" started by going to the Jews first. And even later the Jews were still a big part of Paul's ministry. Paul never only allocated himself to only going after Gentiles. My point is that early on with more converted Jews in the church than gentiles and with the Apostles being Jews who catered to other Jews, the Sabbath was probably not as elevated an issue until the number of Gentiles grew.
Our salvation hinges on keeping the commandments of God, categorized under these two principles: "Love God with all our hearts, soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourselves" Said God: "If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15...."He who says "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him" 1 John 2:4
@@heavenlystars6533 yes. But that text doesn't say faith without "the works of the Law is dead." Plus we are not saved by "faith plus the works of the law." If that's how you're trying to be saved, you're wasting your time trying to attach yourself to Jesus.
I don't want any of my days less Holy or less sacred or less set apart than any other days. I want all of my days, each and every one to be set apart to the utmost.
Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Sabbath keeping is part of New Covenant. Salvation does not hang on the Sabbath alone as you suggested, but those who are saved keep the whole law including the Sabbath not Sunday. Do not try to reinterpret Hebrews 4 because it speaks of the Sabbath rest and the place of rest. You are distorting this chapter.
Sabbath keeping is not part of the New Covenant. For SDAs, salvation does hang on the Sabbath, especially for the last days. The New Covenant doesn't require Christians to keep the Law nor the Sabbath as you are saying. In fact, it clearly teaches that we are dead to the Law, released from it, are not under it, etc. Who says I keep Sunday? Why are you trying to create this strawman argument? I don't keep any day nor care for any day because they do not matter. If you believe that I've distorted Hebrews 4, prove it. If you believe that Hebrews 4 is mandating Sabbath keeping, prove it from chapter 3- chapter 4 (the entire context).
God is my religion. Man created religion. Religion creates the most division in the world especially Christianity. I’ll continue to make God my religion. This constant bickering is annoying.
If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and the Pope is Lord of Sunday. When the Sunday law comes in which of these two will celebrate. Eric thunder can I ask you a question from scripture how do you know when to repent without philosophy and without assumptions just scripture
When did Jesus relinquish His Lordship over Sunday and gave it to the Pope? Mark 2:28 is clear that Jesus is "Lord ALSO of the Sabbath," which means that He Lord of EVERYDAY, including the Sabbath, and not EXCLUSIVELY Lord of the Sabbath. Maybe you need to sort out this confusion of yours before you ask me about repentance.
Nowhere in scripture does it mention the Sunday law. It's a lie Ellen G White, she didn't make it up, propagated it. . Read Hebrews 1 . In these last days God has SPOKEN to us through His Son. That means that there was nothing else to say concerning the gospel. That was given in the New testament is a final word.
@@reidveryan9414 in the book of Daniel it clearly states but in the book of Revelation which is the last book in the Bible clearly states that the man of sin will think to change gods law which is his 10 commandments and the component in his 10 commandments that is mentioned in time is the sabbath. So according to scripture someone is going to think that they can change gods law and time. And in the 1940 catholic catechism clearly states and I quote we have change the day from the sabbath to Sunday without any Scriptural evidence through our ecclesiastic supremacy". And also a magnificent document written by the Catholic Church it is called Rome's challenge. And it is definitely written to the Protestant church as an amazing challenge. Yes the Bible warns us very clearly that the synagogue of Satan mentioned in Revelation will think to change gods law and Time also mentioned in the book of Daniel. God bless to you and your family from Brian
The fact that you are not quoting your points from the Bible but rather twisting the explanation is not just adding up... How about the Text in Revelation 14:12? Which states. Here is the patience of the Saints, Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.. Your points are not valid enough because they don't have scripture support..
Challenge yourself to watch my videos about the Sabbath, the Law, the Ten Commandments, etc, and have your ignorance disabused and prooftexts address. I did plenty videos addressing just about everyone of them. Your comment also shows that you are clueless about the nature and structure of debates or discussions of this nature too.
@@mirriamlwanda6859 Ok. I guess your empty accusations and ad hominem attacks are actual evidence then. 🤷🏾♂️ How about you PROVE your accusations by showing that my convictions can't be seen and also that I'm twisting Scripture? Do videos of your own and show us your contextual exposition of those Scriptures.
Please Reverend stop being emotional.The bible is very clear that that the Law of God is holy and the commandment holy and just and good.Rom 7v12.what do u say about this.
Paul: Hey Peter! This is Paul here, I have a question for ya. Peter: Sure Paul go ahead shoot! Paul: ..."If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" ~ Galatians 2:14 NASB
Focus what God says fist then you will understand Paul. Nun of guys understand Paul. Paul was a Seventh day Adventist, until the end of his life. So was all the rest of the Desiples . Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath wich the seventh day Adventist are keeping please cat's a wake up brother's.
And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. ChS 158.1
In one presentation, you were making yourself to be ignorant and need help with Ellen White statements and basics of the Bible, as if you are clueless. Yet here you are proving yourself to be snaky, conniving Ellenist and devote. You'll really can't hide your true colors no matter how deceptive you are at first.
The host is extremely rude by not allowing Elce equal time to speak. He needs a muzzle and a moderator, his continuous interruptions makes his position weak.
Blessings to you bro William. Correct analysis. Nonetheless, I had to do my best to maintain my composure and try to get some points across. I think he had underestimated me, given that I was a novice (freshly out of Sabbatarianism) and he having been a feared Sabbatarian debater for decades locally. He was greatly flummoxed by my arguments and did his best to prevent me from presenting much of my arguments and responding to his. Nevertheless, it was a great experience and person can always watch the discussions and draw their own conclusions.
@@ReverendThunder the word of God speaks for itself when permitted. You did a great job and maintaining your composure while not allowing emotions to come through is a testament to your trust in what God’s word actually says. I was once challenged with a simple question, where does it say Adam and Eve rested with the Lord? We arrive to those extra biblical statements by EGW and not scripture. When we test her visions we find that not everything she said came to be. If we are honest with ourselves, then we must accept what the Bible tells us about visions and dreams that don’t come to pass, they are not from God. The more rooted in faith with EGW the harder it is to let go. Romans 14 teaches us that there really is no health msg, God is able to make both stand and it is God that does the work, not us. We cannot eat our way into the kingdom. It wasn’t until I started looking at verses verse by verse in the Greek and Hebrew that I realized there’s a problem with how I was taught to understand scripture. The word rest at creation is Shabath and there are 7 root words for rest. This word literally means to cease just as scripture says, God ceased from the work of creation because it was complete. Similarly in Heb 10:14 the Lords work of atonement in the Greek tells us his work was perfectly complete and we are “continuously” being sanctified. The completed work is “eternal” performed once. Just that one verse alone destroys the investigative judgement as taught by Adventism. Does God investigate? My thoughts, yes, when the sins of mankind reach unto heaven he sees, Just like when the Lord went to see Saddam and asked the Angels, shall I tell Abraham what I am about to do? The hour of God’s judgement has come, the sins of Babylon have reached Heaven and God is about to pour out his wrath after all have had the opportunity to hear the gospel and make a decision in the frontal lobe. It is appointed fir man to die once then the judgement. The condemned are judged during the millennium and blessed is he who takes part in 1st resurrection for there is no escape from the second death. After death your decision is complete, final not able to be changed. The Lord brings his reward with him and the children of God will be revealed. That’s how I see the judgement hour just like the judgement hour of Saddam.
You are a falls Host, don't take out of scripture and don't add to scripture. Sabbath belongs to God, we must obey it as it is. God is in charge not us, don't mess with God please. You guys playing with fire.
@@rayray4192 if he has quit the church let him let the church be.... Deuteronomy 29:29 says let whatever revealed to us remain open but whatever is not revealed will be done so by God in Hi second advent... Let him leave the church alone. The Bible says let's be united in love not dismantle each other... When you say he dismantled everything... That's not love.. I rest my case
@Kyle Tyrone your case is unbiblical. Your post is moronic. Elce Thunder Lauristan did not quit the church as you ignorantly state. He left a non Christian demonic cult. God has instructed the real church to expose frauds who proclaim they speak for God. “ Watch out for the dogs, the evil doers, the mutilators of the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh- The apostle Paul proving you are Bible illiterate and a biblical fool in Philippians 3:2-3. Life is not always rainbows and puppies kissing your face. At times the truth needs to be stated and it’s not always pleasant. Your perception love is childish and ignorant. Love is a choice. Adventist demonic cultists have chosen to separate themselves from God, grace, and the body of Christ. Adventists have chosen to attack the body of Christ. Adventists have chosen to exalt themselves as God’s only last days remnant church. Their sense of superiority is sickening. This is not a matter of unity in the body of Christ; it’s a matter of calling out heretics and blasphemers who seek to capture innocent and naive souls into their demonic cult and place them in bondage, and eternal hell. That’s not love.
it is a SING BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOREVER,,,,,,,,FOREVER IS finish NOW,,,,ROMA,,9,20,,BUT INDEED,O MAN,WHO ARE YOU TO REPLY AGAINST GOD,WILL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM WHO FORMED IT,WHY HVE YOU MADE ME LIKE THIS',,
Praise God for brother Boyne. The Holy Spirit has used him to bring out the truth in regard to the True and Bilblical Holy Sabbath day and why it still remains significant.
So Mr. Boyce is saying that Romans 14:5 applies to fasting days eating or not eat. Is he saying then that it's acceptable to fast every day continously forever? Moses nor Jesus nor Brother Hun even pulled that one off.
See Johnston's article at adventistdigitallibrary.org/adl-404982/andrews-university-seminary-studies-july-1-1974 regarding the Jewish view that the Sabbath is indeed universal even though third century (AD) rabbis later decided that it was only for Israel.
I am now going to download your video, because other things were more important. I am also going to download the others also that I didn't hear theirs either Wait till you'll find out that evil doesn't exist...what we think is evil is only some evil angels trying to establish evil into existence. But they had to fool themselves to be trying to bring on some thing whose definition is :nobody wants to experience it. The only way we can know something that feels "evil" is whe we lose our good. ONLY GOOD EXISTS. EVIL IS JUST THE LOST OF OUR GOOD. God only made good. Everything a person could want to experience. Even that it never ends. The devil tried to make it hard to understand, because he wants to adverse God. It wouldn't be hard to create all things good, because the definition of evil is: what you dont want or can't want. Things like Sorrow, sad tears, pain, death. No one has to be told that. But of course the devil would try to confuse that to get started in his new fantasies. So he started trying to establish evil. We are going to lose him and anyone who wants to keep trying, to establish evil, while we go back to only good because that stuff makes no sense. Any one who wants more knowledge about what's really going on. Find a way to ask me your questions, Without trying to harm me
Lol, I was impressed that most of this video Mr Boyne remained calm and allowed you to speak but at the end that ellen spirit started rising in him as he started to try to dominate the conversation🤣
WAR READY,,,GODS PEOPLE WORSHIP ON SABBATH,,,,,,VS,,,,,DRAGON PEOPLE WORSHIP ON SUNDAY,,,SABBATH the Mark of God PEOPLE,,,,,,,SUNDAY THE MARK OF THE PEAST,,,
Adam and Eve had only been on the planet for one day... They could not have kept the work part of the entire command. The 7th day that God rested does not have any time constraints on it at all.. every other day had time parameter... and there was evening and morning, a day... Is this a mistake by God to overlook such a thing? This purposeful lack of time is prophetic insight to perpetual rest given by Christ. How is man to enter into HIS rest? It is no longer merely about resting from our own work on ONE day. We rest in all of His work of creation, , redemption, and daily life PERPETUALLY. Only HIS work is Holy... the old covenant aimed toward mans work. in order to magnify sin. Man can do nothing that is not wretched. Yet that old Covenant was the very means that redemption was given through Christ fully God and fully human, It was given through that particular bloodline for the purpose of a legal record to abolish the laws given to servant Levitical priests to uphold. These laws given to magnify the works of man as sin. It is the human element that allows the Holy Spirit to write HIS righteousness and highest moral standard on hearts of flesh. . We are born into HIS righteousness, nothing is our own. . Christ, by His offer of redemption returns us to HIS work alone. perpetually. We rest from our works by His work within us... We are covered whether we are at work or at rest. All things we do are to glorify Him once His love is on our hearts. The vanishing of the old Covenant law for a New Covenant Christian does NOT mean lawlessness. it is the highest moral standard by which the underlying laws are innumerable. But they are HIS work. We cannot turn from His grace again as Eve did. Eve had not earned her right in the garden… she was placed there by Gods grace.. She turned from all that he offered freely by His grace to seek her own way. This is the mother of all sin. She did not rest in HIS work.
It is true that the beginning of a day is normally defined by "evening," as we see on each day previous to the seventh. However, the seventh does not have the formula "and there was evening and there was morning" attached to it. This absence refutes the argument that one can only rest on the seventh day in the world where there is a clearly defined sunset to mark the evening. Furthermore, a person can only argue that that which is described in Genesis is a perpetual rest if that person is unaware of the Hebrew, which is punctiliar. "God rested" is a completed action--not an ongoing one. Exodus 31 says, "He rested and was refreshed."
Elce-Junior Lauriston , What seems to give proof to this is that non-sabbatarians are willing to bear with Sabbatarians, BUT Sabbatarians seem very unwilling to bear with non-sabbatarians.
What double talk was that mr. Boyne? The Jews held the Sabbath as pride? There go the SDA! They are as guilty of this pride as were those jews you spoke of. As I have always say until the Lord returns, you cannot change the sda on this matter or the investigative judgement. Don't waste the spit in your mouth!
@@ReverendThunder here's the issue with the rebuttal you gave when Mr. Boyne brought up Hebrews 4. You said one of the Greek words showed that we'd have to enter into the rest EXACTLY as God did, in that he only rested once. Now the fact that the 4th commandment references the same creation account makes your point moot already but I'll take it further. If I have to consider your very rigid interpretation of "exactly as He did", I would have to conclude that we are all doomed. You see, God didn't enter that rest until He worked for 6 days. More specifically, He carried out the work of creating the world. If I truly have to do rigidly consider doing it exactly as He did, I'd have to create a heavens and Earth for six days too! None of us can do that so none of us have truly entered the rest. We're all doomed then.
@@tubeloobs you are actually proving my point why Hebrews 3-4 is not mandating literal Sabbath-keeping for Christians. God does NOT keep a literal Sabbath, but the author is telling us to enter this rest, just as GOD DID. Obviously, it can't be the keeping of 24 hrs by abstaining from work. The author is talking about a rest of faith by the very fact that he says it's when we believed we HAVE ENTERED this rest. In the Old Covenant, one need not believe in God to rest. As long as one was within Jewish precincts, one HAD TO REST as the Jews did. The author presents God's rest as unceasing from Gen. 2, not cyclical. However, the Jewish Sabbath was cyclical and not unceasing. Not to mention the problem of the author telling them to keep the weekly Sabbath but give no specific instructions how to correctly or better do so. But he does give instructions as to how to enter and remain in this rest of faith though. There are so many reasons I can point out why he's NOT calling for a cyclical Sabbath keeping. But you are free to hold to that position if you desire.
@@ReverendThunder there's no way on earth I'm proving your point bro. I'm just showing you that it was well understood what was meant by entering the rest exactly as God did. God already gave that instruction in the 4th commandment when he calls back to creation week. I have seen you flat out deny the existence of the Sabbath in the garden of Eden and it is messing up your theology. As Mr. Boyne told you, the Sabbath rest remains because it encompasses the past, present and future! Shadows of Christ pointed forward. You cannot deny the fact that the Sabbath was a memorial of creation!
@@tubeloobs The Sabbath remains as something to be practiced or kept based on personal conviction, not as something that's mandatory and salvational for believers today. I concede that point. That's the major crux of my thesis against Sabbatarianism, but Sabbatarians aren't willing to accept this NT teaching and concept. As for the Sabbath existing in Eden, that's something you and other Sabbatarians have to PROVE beyond a shadow of doubt. Exodus 20 does not teach that the Sabbath is a "memorial of creation." That passage is merely showing and mandating a PATTERN for Israel to follow and the authority that undergirds this pattern, God Himself. Nevertheless, they can only miniaturize God's pattern of 6 days work and one day rest, and cyclically repeat this. Whereas, God's work was 6 days then rest ONCE AND FOR ALL.
