ELDEN RING: Shadow of the Erdtree | Messmer is NOT Miquella, probably 

I wish I could go into a coma and wake up the day before the dlc comes out 😢

Think of it this way: we’re already over 1/10 of the way there 🫡

I've learned to enjoy the wait. The thrill of anticipation is a very special thing.

@@NickCombs na fuck that I want it now

@@NickCombs definitely, all the speculations and analysis are a part of the game for me on some level. Still, I'm extremely excited for the release, so seeing it getting closer is just too good

I like this idea. It would tie Melina into the SOTE very nicely. Maybe a credible side story with or without her depending on how far into the main game you are.

Pepsi was illegal in tlb till they incorporated liurnia

Thy pepsi befits a crown

​@@armandaneshjooevidence?

@@javiersoto5223there isn’t any lol they’ve confused head canon with reality

Im also under the impression that Messmer is the first child of Marika with Radagon and was exiled to shadow lands. Now what i want to know is if he was cursed (like his siblings Miquella and Malenia) at birth with these blasphemous characteristics and tendencies and was therefore exiled or if he obtained them later as he became older and was able to start studying and incorporating these more rebellious ideologies that have come to show themselves via his appearance. Also did his blasphemous nature somehow bring on the curse that afflicts both Miquella and Malenia. Did he……idk…….call upon some gods for some reason that lead to either accidentally or deliberately cursing his younger siblings. Maybe he did something heinous while Marika was pregnant that lead to the cursed nature of his siblings and his own exile. Maybe Miquella knew Messmer’s ways and knew he was the answer to ridding himself of his own curse. Maybe he thinks Messmer holds the answer or secrets.

lol what? Stupid argument.

Meaning like who was married to him

Maybe the vessel of the dragon lord's god was the great tree itself? Stone and tree combined in a timeless realm. Just speculation :)

@@ETERNALXGAMEPLAYso Mesmer was boning a dragon 😟

@@NickCombs interesting theory

It's likely the Greater will. The pose of Dragonlord is identical to the two fingers communicating with the greater will. Also the beast man serves the dragons, and they have five fingers that are bestowed by the greater will, symbolising the wisdoms they were granted. The dagger of maliketh( first phase) mentions this. Not to mention the Dragonlord's golden fire attack is identical to the elden beast attack. Also, they have ancient elden ring displayed at maliketh boss room Hope this help! I was confused for a while too.

damn Radahn could honestly be a player in this event too, mohgwyn mausoleum is rite under where you get eternal darkness, which is close to a battle that was fought with Radahn. Maybe his gravity caused something unexpected or something mohg knew would happen

maybe corruption from mohg

A lot of people are for… some reason…

Confirmation bias lol they want him to be what they’ve imagined so they can feel validated about their head canon

ER has an extremely complicated lore to interpret, so it's easy for people to get confused on the details. I think we've all been there.

@@NickCombs The lore is complicated, but a lot of people warp or ignore lore so it can fit their preconceived notions. Another thing is I have found is that a lot of people just believe and repeat what the wider community says without reading item descriptions. Edit: This is mostly what I have seen on Reddit and other forum sites.

What are you smoking?

Those stripped of grace perishing in his flame does have hell/devil vibes

He is. The snakes make it pretty obvious.

There is no vessel for a god in Christianity and Elden Ring seems more pagan than anything, unless you mean Catholicism specifically. Marika was made a god, not manifested from godhood to man, also is a woman. Crucifixion makes up powerful imagery in Western minds and aesthetically, so using it is likely that reference point. He also seems to be another of her children acting as a guard or buffer to the Tarnished and Miquella (possibly).

I suspect there are some Elden Ring videos in our future that reference how Eve was coerced to sin by a serpent thing; a sin that involves a big central tree.

​​@@blumiu2426you know a reference or an influence doesn't have to shape a story into 1:1 copy of the reference/influence, right? Also "paganism" IS a Christian concept

It’s out June 21st, and today at the time of this comment that is 97 days away where I am

@@LoreHunter oh never mind then

lmao stop

I don't think that's likely to work with the timeline since the shadow lands are pretty old, being where Marika first set foot on the lands between. She would probably have needed to hide what's going on there in order to ascend to godhood. But I'm really excited to see how they explore Miquella's alter ego St. Trina. Wielding sleep as a weapon gives me Inception vibes. I also hope we can glimpse what his desecrated form was going to metamorphose into from the cocoon. I bet it would be terrifying.

@@NickCombs From the lore, it seems more that people mistook Miquella for a woman when they saw him in the dreamworld, not that it actually said he took another form. Those that saw such called him that, but it was never something acknowledged or credited alongside Miquella himself. It's also forgotten that if people really did believe Marika took another form, so would the other Empyrian, not just Miquella, but that doesn't make sense as Marika was mortal and would only be able to after becoming a god. Miquella isn't a god, so he shouldn't be able to, thus a big misconception held by people's theory.

@@blumiu2426 We have a depiction of St. Trina on the torch, and they do look very different from what we've seen of Miquella. Particularly the central eye and wild, floating hair/tentacles.

@@NickCombs I know the depiction and that is either a creative depiction, I'd imagine. Remember they repurpose things in that game that weren't originally created to be used that way. That may not be the case here, but people forget From Software does this all the time and people attach meaning to everything when there is none. It would be a contradiction for that monstrous depiction as it looks nothing like Miquella/long haired boy or adult effeminate looking man (as it seems he's an adult in dreams or that land). What we do see of Miquella he does look himself, not a woman unless that is the most manly looking hand I've seen on one of From Software's characters.

​@@blumiu2426 The difference in appearances seems intentional to me rather than a leftover asset. Miquella is partially metamorphosed in the cocoon and has been bathed in accursed blood by Mohg and his followers.. That's going to mess with anyone's appearance.

You can actually look up images of "Miquella without cocoon" and he doesn't have long arms like Messmer does.

With this logic you might as well say Morgott and Miquella (or Morgott and Mesmer) are the same people

I thnk if messmer is the alter-ego of anyone, it's Godwyn, and the Godwyn story in the base game is a cover up to obscure what really happened; that he was banished

I have a crackpot theory that Messer is what became of Godwyn after the nobk. His soul didn’t pass on and he ended up in the realm if shadow. He saw the things his mother did and started engaging in blasphemy and dyed his hair as a way to reject the golden order and oppose her Basically Godwyn went thru is rebel phase after he died

I thought it was confirmed in an interview that the content in the DLC & Messmer was part of the original story Martin created for them?

@@autieglow That I'm not sure of or can remember, so it may have been said in videos. One would think if it was content removed and used now, though again, how much it was altered from Martin's original lore may be said well later or not at all.

@@blumiu2426 it was confirmed in every interview that asked of Martin that Shadow of The Erdtree is a part of the story that Martin had penned for them (Check preferably IGN, 2024). Meaning, it is simply GRRM content that Miyazaki and Team thought would better fit as an expansion than being incorporated into the story of the Lands Between Messmer is a pre-existing GRRM character, and Miyazaki says that it will be explained why he wasn’t featured in “The Legends of the Erdtree, The Lands Between” Also, going by your “self contained DLC” logic, then the Old Hunters DLC was an afterthought and doesn’t have any significance to the lore because it doesn’t add any endings. You see how stupid that sounds? lol

@@Oracle_Orhyn You seem stupid considering nothing I said was for fact, if you read closely. People are so eager to prove someone wrong or be right, they don't read word for word. Martin gave a blueprint for the team to mix, sort and take away from just like they did with the rest of what he wrote. We are never getting exactly what he wrote because it was never intended to be that way to begin with. I've no doubt Messmer was a pre-existing character. It wasn't logic, it was an assumption on how they could have used it. You are under the assumption they put everything together first and then they start development. We know that is not the case from how many videos that datamined the games and characters they add later or mix-n-match? Please read critically. I said it wouldn't effect the ending of games as self contained, meaning it doesn't effect the base game. You seem confused on this point. It is even referred to by Miyazaki as self-contained, if you understand what that means. It would be part of the lore, as if that even would need to be said when self evident.

Me too- they are opposites in the same way Miquella and Malenia are. Both have closed eyes and a shrouded past, as well as seeming to be secret children of Marika.

Either he is Melina's other half or he's who burnt her in a faraway land as the gloam eyed queen

Marika was a Nueman, not a god in the first. It would be a power she was granted after serving the greater will, but there is not explanation what purpose that power would serve as it seemed to work against her. Ranni is an Empyrean, not a god, so why would she have that ability and seem to be in a place closed off from access? It just falls apart.

@@armandaneshjoo The Numen are considered a race all their own, whether mysterious origins or not. You can play as one. There is only one god in the Lands Between, and that one was a mortal made divine by the Greater Will. I'm not sure if you are trying to say their name denotes true or actual divinity against what we know of the lore. There are being that come from space one could try and refer alike, yet they die all the same, too. "It means full demigod". No it doesn't. Empyrean is a title, a title given to one chosen by the Greater Will's Two Fingers to become the next god, nothing special in and of themselves. The Gloam-Eyed Queen was selected, what god existed to birth her? I think you are making up your own lore, not what is actually said in-game. Radagon had an Emyrean child and Rinnala isn't a god, Marika had two likely before she and Radagon became one. The only ones we know of aside from the one Placidusax served. These are not concepts unique to Shintoism nor are they taken exactly in the same manner. I read books on the matter studying Japanese mythology, so I'm aware of these things and I've seen part of that video. Remember that part of the story comes from Martin and reconstructed by Miyazaki. Not all of it will be as Miyazaki conceived on his own, but had other influences like Norse/pagan in mind.

@@blumiu2426 I like to see this as a paralel to Bloodbornes lore. A human could ascend to godhood and become a Great One. It happens to the player character of you go for the ending where you kill the Moon Presence. Marika was a Numen, a mortal. Ascended to godhood through the Elden Ring.

@@armandaneshjoo You're talking about something that didn't make it into the game as a concept and something that did. I think that answers itself. You're not educating me on Shintoism when I explained to you I know what it is. However, these are not Shinto gods even if they are based on that concept, if they are, because we don't fully know. Shintoism makes gods out of animate and inanimate objects, closely entwined with yokai. The Nueman come from another land from what's stated in game, they aren't gods. The gods in the Lands Between are relatives to Marika in some way, the game never states how or who beyond her children and Rinnala's. What we can agree on is that gods in Shintoism have tiers and aren't immortal. One could surmise these were akin to special humans as they all were killed by the Godskin Apostles. Not just Shintoism, there are tiers in pagan religions. You have gods, demi gods, low-tier gods. You can see this in Norse mythology. We are talking about the game lore, not Shintoism. Empyrean is a title in the game granted to those chosen to become a god. You are seriously conflating the two to an extreme degree. You can reference something without it being the exact same thing. Miyazaki didn't work with Martin directly, Martin wrote his part and changes were made by the dev team. Whether late or early, they are what made it into the lore and canon. I have no idea what you are trying to say other than argue against the lore? You definitely made that up lol! That's your personal theory, not ever said in game. Nowhere does it say Marika was a child of Placidusax with his god. You also seem to think a god and Elden Lord need to bare children, when that was never stated. Marika did what she did, it has no bearing on the function of a god ruling the land to bring order as directed by the Greater Will. I think it would be all over lore channels Marika and the Gloam-Eyed Queen were sisters and stated when speaking of her, we don't even know what race she belonged to. Marika captured Radagon? They were never fighting against one another, so where did you get that from? Also, no. The Gloam-Eyed Queen was not one of his children. No qualification states an Emyrean has to be a child of a god in the lore. Now you want to make a differentiation? If we are dealing with the game's mythology then clearly it would be Shintoism filtering the Japanese mythos. If pure Shintoism, it wouldn't be possible. Nothing we have talked about is unique to Shintoism. I wouldn't be able to draw comparisons or parallels if so. Yet you stated something incorrect prior with him working with Miyazaki directly. If Miyazaki and writers went about crafting what they were given to fit how they wanted, of course it wouldn't all be from Martin. It wouldn't have many fingerprints of Miyazaki if so. That doesn't change the underlying basis Martin shaped the lore with even if they added Japanese concepts. That just means it would not be easy to tell in some places and distinguishing in others. Shintoism isn't some unique creation that can't be compared with other pagan religions of the world; it most certainly can as it draw from nature, the observable and spiritualism. It does more so when it ties in Japanese mythology. It carries all the hallmarks of a man-made belief system from the Eastern World.

@@ricklubbers1526 I think it would qualify as a trope, narrative device in fiction and an ancient desire of man. It's in all of Miyazaki's games starting from Demon's Souls.