Uhh Strong Belwas is NOT selmy. He’s an entirely different character- who used to fight in the slave pits. Are you thinking of Arstan or did you not read the books?
Road 35 nobody questions how selfish their decisions were either. “Rhaegar didn’t rape Lyanna, they were in love. Isn’t that nice? Rhaegar left his wife and kids, who ended up getting murdered, and Lyanna left her betrothed Robert” 🤷🏻♂️
Rhaegar was a real selfish guy. Lyanna was selfish too. Lyanna was betrothed, but I feel like what Rhaegar did was worse, because he was already married and had two kids. A war started because these two weren’t open about their love
Yup. Rhaegar's an ass. But I gotta say, Lyanna was like 14. She probably didn't know any better. (Think book 1/season 1 Sansa) I don't think I can lay the blame on a girl just barely in her teens. Rather, the blame goes to the grown ass man who abandoned his wife and kids AND his duty to the realm's peace.
Jason Todd still, a 14 year old girl should at-least be smart enough to tell somebody about their love. Maybe could’ve saved Rhaegars life, and possibly ended the war.
@@Lord_Of_Night nopeee even at 14 I wouldn't fall for a guy with kids and a wife nor would I be able to keep it a secret. She was selfish. Complained about how Robert can't keep to one bed but then decides to run off with a married man.
@@akshayapradeep9793 You were more knowledgeable than Lyanna. Not all children are equally intelligent. Lyanna did not have the education that you have. She grew up in a totally different world. Not to mention, at that age, her brain wasn't even fully developed yet. I just prefer blaming the adult instead of the child. It was Rhaegar's decision to manipulate a little girl and he got her killed. Just like it was his decision to abandon Elia and their children to the Mad King's clutches.
@@Lord_Of_Night I think we can agree to disagree on this one. Of course I think rhaegar was the worst person in this situation but Lyanna isn't far behind in my opinion. She made a foolish decision and I believe she knew it was a foolish decision. Otherwise she wouldn't have kept it a secret. Nor would she have run off with him. Her desires won over her moral conscience. And in the end cost countless lives. Also lyanna was quite intelligent for her time and considering how early on Mothers teach their kids about these things. She must know about a women's position and her duty. She said she didnt want Robert because he would cheat, she understood the concept of cheating and how it would feel for her if Robert did it so I'm more than certain she understood the Elia - Rhaegar situation and how wrongly she acted.
her story is so dumb which is why i can't take that portion of robert's rebellion seriously. unfortunately, many think her love story is a shining altar to beheld when in reality they caused so much suffering. imagine my disgust.
To be fair we don’t know the whole story yet. Was Rhaegar’s marriage to Ellia tragic? Did he actually kidnap Lyanna? I kinda think Ellia and Rhaegar had an understanding and Lyanna did too. Rhaegar probably probably followed in the footsteps of Aegon The Conquerer and practiced polygamy. Robert on the other hand was just a straight up scumbag. He was essentially a man whore till his dying day. I don’t a marriage to Lyanna would have changed that. He had Cersei Lannister as his wife. Who by all accounts was the most beautiful woman in the kingdom and she actually loved him at first. But he was such a dick to her that he turned her into a spiteful woman. He would’ve done the same to Lyanna.
Miguel Sandoval, if they had an understanding, then it was a stupid plan or both Rhargar and Ellia were oblivious to what would happen. If we went by your theory, first off, why would Ellia stay on Dragonstone instead of going back to Dorne? Why not inform her brother? Her closest “ally” and friend, the only person she could actually trust Cersei is a horrible person so her beauty means jack to people with some level of perception or who were madly in love with someone else (Robert). Cersei was always spiteful. Dont kid yourself that her deamonor and actions were Robert’s fault. Last I checked, Tywin arranged the marriage and Tyrion “killed” her mother. We do not know if Robert would act differently with a woman he actually loved. And every man whoring, you are speaking of 99% of men in Westeros. Ned Stark is an exception to the rule, not the other way around. And unlike Sam, Ned was attractive to a degree. So you have incel vs someone who iss just shy and has honor.
Lyanna wanted her husband to be loyal to her. Elia was basically forced on Rhaegar. I'm not excusing his behavior. Elia was treated horribly. And her end was the fault in part of her husband.
Ellia Martell and her children deserved so much better. Rhaegar was a selfish piece of crap. People view Rhaegar as some nice guy because he was loved by people but they don't think too deeply about what he did. He crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty in front of his pregnant wife. She almost died giving birth to their son Aegon and she was bed ridden for 6 months after she gave birth to Rhaenys. Rhaegar being obsessed with prophecy decided that he needed a 3rd head of the dragon and that's why he left her and chose Lyanna to have a child with so they he could create a promised prince. As a result a war got started, Rhaegar didn't bother sending a raven to anyone saying he and Lyanna got married but instead he was with her at the TOJ knowing people were fighting for months and then finally he decides to join the fight at the trident and then he loses. Rhaegar was a mad man but in a different way he just wasn't a pshizophrenic like Aerys. He definitely loved to come off as perfect as well, people who tend to want to come off like that is because they're wearing a mask sort of like Amy from Gone Girl.
Rhaegar is fucking stupid. He wanted the "The dragon must have 3 heads" prophecy so bad but he got 2 of his children dead. Well in the books it's hinted that Elia's son might be alive. But still, Rhaegar is an idiot for that.
I think what your thinking of is Narcissism. When someone wants to be viewed as the perfect human, but is actually just a selfish piece of crap who only thinks about what benefits them and to hell with everyone else.
GoT fans went from loving the Rheagar and Lyanna love story line to basically almost despising it and realizing that not only how dumb it was but how much of a victim Elia was. The fandom development!! I love it!!!
@@adw6894 ikr that was so fucked up :/ And if the show is actually right and Jon's "real name" is supposed to be Aegon, wtf is that supposed to mean? Was Rhaegar discarding Ellia and their trueborn kids and trying to start over with his "the dragon must have 3 heads" shit with Lyanna? Because I cannot imagine why he would name his new kid Aegon when he already had a kid named Aegon. And no matter what what happening if had an understanding with Ellia or not, if he knew the Mad King was paranoid thinking he was plotting to overthrow him and Rhaegar knew he wouldn't be around to protect them, the first thing he should have done was send Ellia, Rhaenys and Aegon to Dorne where they'd be the safest, especially if he knew a war could ensue. He literally left his wife and their two kids to be hostage of a mad man while he ran with a teenager, Rhaegar is such a piece of shit.
@@sorensorensen9567 Your comment is really interesting and sent me on a spiralling google search to figure out why Rhaegar named both his sons Aegon. I no longer think he did. One person said that Rhaegar would have already been dead by the time Lyanna gave birth, and that she herself named the baby. They were speculating that Rhaegar might even have been expecting a baby girl to name Visenya, completing the 3 headed dragon and naming them after the original 3 Targaryens landing in Westeros. To me this makes more sense. It doesn't explain why he left his family in the first place though, and I guess it just comes down to an unhappy arranged marriage.
@@tasneemedwards2574 he wanted the mountain to confess in front of everyone because their the story that written by a maester from the citadel who a Lannister supporter and a diehard fan of Tywin that spread conspiracies and rumor that it was ELIA that kills her children or that know one knows who kill her and the children. The mountain outright confess when he was killing oberyn in front of the court, the city, and especially all those noblemen from dorne he brought to the wedding witness and heard what he said making the Lannister worst.
Violet Ice Rhaegar always showed love to everyone he definitely love her he wanted a 3 child and decided fell in love with Lyanna and we all know what happen next
@Violet Ice Yeah, I'm fully supportive of the theory that Elia and Rhaegar discussed the prophecy, the finding of another young woman (highborn or not; I don't think it would have mattered had Rhaegar laid eyes on a young tavern maid had he thought she could be the "one"), and needing the "Third head of the Dragon". I believe Elia, however much she really believed of the prophecy (and look, with Rhaegar being as charismatic, intense and learned as he was, she could very well have believed the prophecy...OR, she could have thought it was just another one of Rhaegar's weird f*cking ideas, but being so fond of him, and understanding her fragile health and the unlikelihood of her giving him another child, or even living very long, went along with it, for him) would have been far more okay with it all than many people think. She *was* Dornish. Having said all this, I highly doubt she knew (or wanted, obviously) she was going to die and have her children "die" as they did. I feel wholeheartedly sorry for her and what happened, and she definitely did not deserve it. If I were her, I would have been majorly pissed at the turn of events, and at Rhaegar himself for how it all unfolded, but...she was not just a "wallflower" in this whole affair. She knew.
@@KOCChristian He didn't love Lyanna he was just using her as a means to an end. Rhaegar only cared about completing the prophecy of the three headed dragon
When Oberyn was forcing the Mountain to say Elia's name, I felt how sad and angry Oberyn was. It was a brother's revenge. Pedro Pascal gave justice to Oberyn's character really well imho.
And yet many fans were upset at him for being "stubborn" and not killing the Mountain directly, because all that mattered to them was Tyrion's safety. Don't get me wrong, I also wanted Tyrion alive and in part I was sensing something bad was about to happen to Oberyn but specially as a sibling myself, I understand his suffering, and wish more people would emphatize for his situation.
But he didn’t he should have just killed the mountain and kept it moving he wanna scream and do extra shit knowing he fighting a grisly bear and just wounded him
Never understood the crazy fans that defended Lyanna for her hypocrisy or Rhaegar for being Noble and a nice guy. Rhaegar just didn't give two shits about his children or Elia which got them killed, Lyanna kinda forgot about her own family and the consequences which got her father and brother murdered and lets not forget the thousands that ended up dead because of them. But crazy R+L fans call it beautiful, cuz they were in love, OK! Always got the impression that Rhaegar was not an intelligent person.
R+L fans are most likely just some naive teenage girls who see R+L as a handsome prince and beautiful maiden forbidden love story. Even though I'm a Targaryen supporter but still, Rhaegar really sucks. A cheater whose affair starts a war and has thousands of people killed, including his wife and children and forcing his siblings live in a life of exile in fear of assassins. Very beautiful indeed.
@@DragonKnight999 Thanks for acknowledging it. There are still plenty of great Targaryens (Aegon V, Jaehaerys, Daeron, Baelor Breakspear, Maekar, Aegon V etc.). Rhaegar and Aerys boroughs about the destruction of their House.
Does anyone else think it weird that Rhaegar would have his best guards to guard Lyanna and a baby,yet not place any guards to guard his wife Elia,his daughter, and his newborn son? Did he even think of them when war broke out?
It is implied that Rhaegor told Jamie to protect his wife and chidren but Jamie after killing his King was filled with madness that he was just sitting there in the iron throne with king's blood and wasn't able to save Elia and her children. and Verys says something about Elia calling out for someone's name which we can assume is probably jamie's when the mountain entered the room
@Drift Alfs Still, taking three of the best fighters to protect his mistress and leaving one greenboy to protect his lawful wife and children, that is just madness.
I somehow doubt they would have been able to follow that command to protect Elia if they were stationed in capital Kingsguard is not what it was meant in the beginning when Visenya made it When she made the order most important thing she looked for was talent and loyalty to House Targaryen it didn't matter if you were a bastard or follower of Old Gods as long as you fit those two criteria she also personally trained them and during those times those in Kingsguard would have executed their own families without hesitation if House Targaryen given the command with how loyal they were and it was going that way untill Dance of Dragons when they started participating in politics they were meant to protect every member even from each other even it it meant death for them but by the time of Aerys they only protected those that wear the crown and sit on Iron Throne Thus Aerys would have dismissed Rhaegar's command the moment they set foot in capital because he thought that Rhaegar wants to overthrow him which i think the Tourney at Harrenhal was about i think Rhaegar had a chance there for Great Council but what is suspicious is why did Aerys go there when he never gave a shit about Tourney's before his madness he was like Rhaegar a scholar and after what happened with Darklyn's he never left Red Keep why then suddenly leave all the way to Riverlands my suspicion is on Varys i think he even fed him smaller doses of Basilisk Blood during and after the capture i don't think its coincidence that Lord Darklyn's wife is also from Three Daughters as Varys then there are Maesters who i think are responsible for so many miscarriages how come it was low during Aegon the Unworthy i doubt it's punishment of the Seven bringing strife to House Targaryen as i doubt they even exist Then there is why Elia and her children were still at capital when Aerys evacuated Rhaella and Viserys i think she was there as a hostage not only as a threat to Dorne but also Rhaegar who he thought was going to betray him and when the word came of his death mourned him and snaped even more by wanting to burn the Kings Landing with wildfire i get this feeling that all of this was staged and that there is conspiracy and no matter how much Varys hates magic he must have got some benefits during that blood ritual I also think it was Baelish who spread rumors about Lyanna's kidnapping and rape to create the chaos as he loves to say "Chaos is the ladder" and as a revenge to Brandon who he challenged for Catelyn's hand and got heavily wounded for it and humiliated by Cat's constant rejection
I'd like to add a point about Elia and her children that I feel a lot of people often completely miss. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna were hypocrites and incredibly reckless with their actions and didn't seem to care or didn't consider the repercussions of simultaneously pissing of THREE major houses (Starks, Baratheons, Martells) plus possibly the crown (Aerys wasn't likely to support their fling, was he?) in the realm?!? Incredible. BUT! Aside from that, everybody always talks about Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecies. Namely two. "The dragon has three heads" and "The prince that was promised". As if that sort of justifies him. Rhaegar already had two children out of the supposedly needed three. Sooooo to get the third child that his wife might not be able to bear what does he do? Well, abandon his wife and existing two children in the name of the potential third child of course! And cause the death of the first two, making the whole point of the "third" totally worthless and unnecessary. Also, he already had a son, a potential PTWP. Also killed because of him. In other words, he UNDID his own prophecies with the little Lyanna fling. So, ignoring every other messed up thing he did, Rhaegar’s actions made absolutely no sense even from the perspective of his own crazy obsessions. The show made this even worse with the annulment plot, which is even more ludicrous because it meant that he willingly renounced two of his legal children, undoing the “three heads” prophecy even before his kids were murdered, making the Lyanna marriage completely useless from the get go. What kind of father or person does that?!? Not even “crazy” excuses that.
The annulment was a joke and ps just because that a man setside his wife it doesn't means that he could setside his children also. They never address this the show version, I believe if the children were still alive that would be STILL in the line of succession.
@@sophiawilson8696 PERIODT people don't talk about this enough! Why would he make his son Aegon a bastard by annulling his marriage to Elia when the sole reason he ran away with Lyanna was to have "three heads of the dragon" like it makes ZERO sense, even from Rhaegar's fucked up perspective.
I thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna as a hopeless romantic people. I mean he's a bard prince who likes stories and prophecies...throughout history many people do stupid things for love. The famous love story Romeo and Juliet commit suicides because of misunderstandings. It's stupid but so human that many people love it, so much so it turned cliche because authors wrote so many variations of it. But you get the gist, people are not perfect. One mistake is not the whole of a person. And I'm kind of bias because I'm obsessed with the lives of people real or fictional. I think stupid mistakes are what makes a character unique and their reactions towards the consequences of their decisions make them great or break them... that's the moment whether they became lovable or hateable or boring 😁
@@SnowSNS11 Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna, he only did his duty thinking he was "the chosen one". He wanted a fertile woman to bear the "third head of the dragon". He went to the tourney looking for the youngest maid aka Lyanna (She was 15 and he was 24, nearly 10 years older than her). A girl like her age doesn't think twice, so basically he manipulated her and put his seed inside her. That's why in her last moments of life, she realized how wrong were her actions. Alone with her crown of roses stained with blood and she didn't even know her father and brother were dead because no one told her so she wouldn't escape from the tower. That isn't love.
Maybe people disagree but I think that the show butchered the Greyjoy storyline at least as badly if not worse than the Dorne one, compared to the books.
I Do disagree. The Greyjoy storyline is one of MJ favorites from the whole show. I learned at age six that television/film adaptations are different. My mama used to read sleeping beauty to me almost every night out of this old fairytale book she had. The animated version was completely different from the real story.
Have you read the books though? I'm not sure how anyone could read book Euron (especially in light of the chapters read by George from WoW) and be happy with what we got in the show. Same with omitting Victarion and Damphair. Don't get me wrong I actually think that the show especially in the earlier seasons did things differently that I even liked more than the books, but these two instances were definitely not some of those cases...
Justice for Princess Elia, Rhaegar didn't deserve her. There was no excuse for the horrible way Rhaegar treated Princess Elia. Many argued that it was because he didn't love her or he was driven by a prophecy to save the world but to me, it cannot be used as an excuse to publicly humiliated your wife. He disrespected her. I'm sure Rhaegar and Lyanna could have had their romance somewhere else, far away from Princess Elia's presence. Even Lady Catelyn once thought she would look away even if Lord Eddard Stark had had dozen of bastards as long as the Lord kept his bastards away. But Jon was never away, lord Eddard kept him close and Lady Catelyn saw Jon as her disgrace, the proof of Lord Eddard's infidelity to her. The Dorn was furious by the way the princess was treated because Rhaegar made sure everyone knows that he was not happy in his marriage. He could have charmed Lyanna in the wood but no, he chose to disgrace his wife in front of the biggest crowd in the Seven Kingdom at that time. My heart aches for Princess Elia even though she was dead a long time ago and only seldomly mentioned by 2-3 lines in the books. Princess Elia's reaction in Harrenhal was not known, but when prince Aegon was born (after the incident of her husband disgraced her publicly), she seemed nature and did not hold a grudge against Rhaegar when she asked if he was going to write a song for Aegon. This, to me, is the saddest part. It proves that Princess Elia was indeed gentle and smart and kind and brave (they said she fought like a tigress for her children's lives), yet her husband abandoned her for a teenager and her life met the most tragic end.
I hate it when people assume that just because Elia Martell is Dornish that she would consent to Rhaegar running away/abducting/having a second wife. Yes, Elia is Dornish. Their customs(according to Non-Dornish characters) are lewd and promiscuous, but not all of them have that same mindset. One example of contradicting behaviors are the Martell brothers: Doran and Oberyn. Doran was the ruling Prince of Dorne. His relationship with Mellario of Norvos was strained and they did not even live together. But even if he had the availability to take on a paramour of his own. He did not. Duty to his realm was paramount. Oberyn on the other hand, may be the "Dornishman" but he is neither married nor engaged to others of his ranks. Yes, he had several bastards, but there would be no one for them to contest since Oberyn does not have a lady wife nor children of legitimacy. Elia, having married a Targaryen, is most likely to follow the customs that is outside of Dorne since she is to be Queen one day. She is not in Dorne, but in King's Landing. She cannot integrate her customs there. And as a wife and mother and FUTURE QUEEN, you would not want to CONSENT your husband to have an AFFAIR with a DAUGHTER OF A LORD PARAMOUNT, that can result to A CHALLENGE OF SUCCESSION and ANOTHER BLACKFYRE REBELLION. Gods, I can imaging Aegon the Unworthy laughing in his grave if that were to happen.
Thank you! I'm sick of people constantly trying to justify what Lyanna and Rhaegar did, Rhaegar was mad and no one can change my mind. He was mad and selfish and thrusted that awful fate on his children and wife because he had to have another child because of some ridiculous prophecy. Everyone looks down on characters being promiscuous and praise Ned for his loyalty but see no problem with what Rhaegar did. Elia deserved better. Lyanna is a selfish and hypocritical bitch, claiming she won't have Robert for him not staying to one bed but she runs off with someone else's husband. She already knew running off with Rhaegar would cause problems considering how angry the eldest brother was when Rhaegar proclaimed her queen of love and beauty. She knew what she was doing. And Rhaegar was just as mad as his father, only he didn't have the bloodlust. I'm sick of people thinking they're perfect and justified, but their selfishness caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people including their family. I hate D&D for chalking them up to some perfect Disney fairytale and that love prevails over all, and I hate it even more that people just take it at face value. They're not good people.
@@fawnieee I agree with you. Some will say that Rhaegar was the greatest king that never was. WRONG! We could look into modern monarchy(British) that even they say that LOVE IS THE DEATH OF DUTY. You will be the king, in the means that your duty is to your people not love, lust, war or the prophecy which may not even stem from Rhaegar's line(really though, it clearly states that the prophecy would be from Aerys II and Rhaella's line, not Rhaegar's. Viserys was already born before the war and he didn't even consider that his brother might be the PTWP). And yet, he tore the whole of Westeros apart and erased his dynasty in the plights of fancy.
@@fawnieee Also, I think Ned Stark turned a blind eye on honour when it came to his sister and her actions. Whilst, the Former Ruling Princess of Dorne exiled her own son for sleeping with a paramour. Now tell me which one is more honourable?
You have some good points not all Dornishs people are lewd and promiscuous. The point is that their marriage was based friendship and respect, I believe that Rhaegar would have explain that he wanted a third child and that if the succession order still stand that their son Aegon will be sitting on the throne. Not the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. ps if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna and keep Elia Martell as wives there be NOOOO!!! need for a rebellion. (The child will be a TRUE BORN also ) The point is Elia's children were born first there MIGHT be an argument if any thing happen to Aegon if they would allow Rhanya the girl would put on thorne. or the son? of Lyanna and Rhaegar?
This is why I refuse to romanticize Rhaegar and Lyanna. If Lyanna eloped by her will in the books as well, then she's guilty too. Rhaegar is a douchebag regardless. #justiceforEliaMartell
Maestarr: Your wife Elia can never give birth again without putting herself in danger Rhaegar: Aight, I'm out. Im sorry for all those who love Rhaegar but that Targaryen was a selfish cheater with no sense of honour or duty to his wife or the realm which he abandoned to war till The white bull dragged him by the ear and threw him to the trident. Despicable bastard. You aint happy in a relationship? You wanna fulfil prophecy? Okay. But dont try using that as a justification for cheating
Tbh, a lot of people seem to despise Rhaegar. I barely saw anyone who actually liked Rhaegar. Why would they do that anyway? From all the information we got, he was the reason for Roberts Rebellion. He couldn't keep it in his pants, although he was married and had kids, because he "loved" her. As Walder Frey said in the show, Rhaegar betrayed his wife for a pretty face with firm tits and a tight fit. Countless people had to die, because Rhaegar was a horny cheater, and Lyanna a lustful slut with no respect for the sacred matrimony.
yep Martin better find really good reason for this in future books, otherwise Raegar will be forever remebered as asshole who drown country in blood and made his House near extinct.
@@Alvaro89Rus It seems pretty clear to me that he only seduced Lyanna because she fit his version of the Ice and Fire prophecy. He probably expected her child to be a daughter to fit the theme of Three Heads Of Dragon along with Rheanys, Aegon and Visenya. Lyanna made it easy for him. She was a sheltered highborn teenager who was unhappy about her engagement to Robert and thus comes Rheagar sweeping of her feet and promising to give her the freedom she thought she wouldn't get with Robert.
The show did Elia and her kids dirty. And than the crazy R+L fans will always try to say that Elia would be fine with a three way marriage/affair because she was Dornish. So what? Just because her home is more accepting of things like that, does not mean Elia herself would be. And what about Lyanna? She was raised to accept the fact she'd marry a man of high standing despite his bastards or lack of love, as numerous other women did. Why would Elia have to embrace what her home did while Lyanna could reject hers? Honestly the whole situation just ticks me off and I wish more people would acknowledge what Lyanna and Rhaegar's love cost people. I don't blame Lyanna as she was a child and Rhaegar was an adult who took advantage of a young teen who was in a situation she did not want to be in.
Also I get not wanting to be forced to marry someone, but Robert had one bastard at that time as a young unmarried man in the Vale, she says Robert will never keep to one bed, and yet she runs off with a married man with a wife and two children. Lyanna is a hypocrite plain and simple. What she did is far worse than Robert having one bastard whilst being unmarried.
@@temptationofmemories There is theory that Lyanna send a letter to her to explain everything, but the Maestor at there hold the letter from the Lord of Winterfell he and the Citadel wanted the Mad King Out!!!
Not to mention that assuming Elia would be okay with it is stereotyping Dornish people. Not every Dornish person would have the exact same personality.
@@Lord_Of_Night exactly for all we know Elia was super against this and hated Lyanna but we'll never know unless someone says so in the book or we get a Robert's Rebellion prequel with Elia's POV
I don't believe the idea Elia was okay with that. Not all Dornish people are into open relationships. Elia doesn't appear to have been anything like sex mad Oberyn even though he cherished his sister a lot.
The actor whom played Doran was a very strong actor, he play it well with the little material he got audience wanted more but D+D had different ideas. I believe it more to plot with Doran but with uproar of the Sand Snakes it cut short.
Lyanna was using Robert's infidelity as an _excuse_ to reject Robert. She actually *_just didn't like him._* She liked Rhaegar, and so the infidelity didn't matter to her.
That’s a theory. Its not really backed up by the story, of course. It’s implied that she didn’t love him, but Robert was similar to her brother and she got along well with Brandon. He was also a long time friend of the family. It’s still incredibly selfish, stupid and irresponsible and Robert was 100% justified in burying his warhammer in Rhaegars chest.
@@MusaMansu They were both in arranged marriages, in a sexist world where fierce women like Arya Stark & Lyanna Mormont would be asked to submit to bloodthirsty savages like Robert Baratheon. Generally, both romanticism and modern standards would favor Lyanna & Rhaegar's relationship, while only mindless obedience could justify keeping the betrothals as they'd been arranged.
@@horsegirlb7120 1) It’s not about sexism. Men have to get arranged marriages too. 2) Roberts not a bloodthirsty savage. He literally did nothing wrong before the arebellion. 3) Modern standards would consider Lyanna a home wrecker and Rhaegar a rapist that abandoned his wife and kids for a 14 year old child. Do we really want to look at this from a modern lense?
@@MusaMansu It's not _always_ about sexism, but in this case we're talking about a strong woman and a stupid man. Robert himself admits that Jon Arryn tried to discipline & guide him to be a good & wise person, but all he wanted to do was fight & fuck. Call it what you want.
@@horsegirlb7120 He couldn’t have been that stupid. He won almost every battle that he fought and the only one he lost was indecisive, because he retreated in good order. He seemed to be an able commander, charismatic, sociable and capable of winning people over to his cause. He also delivered a crushing defeat to Rhaegar Targaryen at the Trident even though his forces were outnumbered and battle weary, while Rhaegars were fresh. Stannis mentions Robert winning battles at odds worse than 5 to 1. Surely, you’d admit that to be a successful general, you generally need to be intelligent. Right?
THIS is why Oberyn was so deadset on getting the Mountain's confession. At the end of the day, even if most people knew about it, no one could prove that the Mountain killed Ellia and her kids or that Tywin ordered it. And the confession that Oberyn wanted wasn't to incriminate the Mountain, it was to incriminate Tywin. He could kill the Mountain and no one would care, because he's just a knight and from a minor house. However, if he's gonna kill Tywin Lannister, he needs a damn good reason to do so, and a confession that Tywin ordered the murder of the crown princess and her children would definitely do it.
Lyanna Stark : I won't marry a guy that will be unfaithful, no matter how noble he is Also Lyanna Stark : Take me with you Rheagar and ditch your dornish princess !
I really like Tywin but what he ordered the mountain to do was so terrible. I get that it was for the "ptotection" of his family but damn, they were just babes.
that's not true he did order the mountain to kill the children not Elia but that's not any better in the books he even says he didn't know he needed to be specific.
@@AyelMathias You are right course but would Dorne given them if they didn't kill Elia Martell?. The fact is that two children are dead and they were half Dormish.
Tywin is a good character but the children didn't need to die just to secure Roberts throne. Even if the mountain didn't kill Ellia she would want revenge for her children and so would Dorne. Those kids were half Martell and they weren't to blame for Rhaegar's stupidity.
"And go back to baby making " The only thing Rhaegar wanted all the time that's why he left Elia the moment he learned that she could not bare more children 😂😂😂
"B-b-but Rhaegar LOVED LYANNA THATS WHY!!" No Rhaegar was mad and wanted to fill a ridiculous prophecy. And Lyanna was selfish and stupid enough to go through with it. I'm sick of this Disney pro romance D&D gave us and people lap it up. Rhaegar was mad and Lyanna was a selfish hypocrite. No one can convince me otherwise.
@@fawnieee Rhaegar's an asshole, no doubt, but let's not blame a 14-year old girl. Lyanna was naive, but she probably didn't know any better (think book/season 1 Sansa) and got manipulated by an older man.
@@fawnieee why does everyone call it a ridiculous prophecy? There is ample evidence that rhaegar was right about the prophecy and that Jon is of a major importance against the others, you can call rhaegar a dick if you want but he was probably right about the prophecy
Ik this is fictional but the way the children and Elia died was so brutal, it's just overwhelming. The fight between Oberyn and the Mountain was so gruesome, and to think that's exactly how Mountain killed Elia? It's too much.
I hope at some point in the books GRRM will give us more information about Elia. I can't believe Rhaegar didn't even try to get her and the children somewhere safe knowing how crazy his dad was.
Aerys kept her and her children captive, don't forget that after Rhaegar and Elia married they lived on Dragonstone exactly because of his father, but unfortunately they couldn't stay there forever
You, AltShiftX and IdeasOfIceAndFire are by far the best youtubers who talk about anything related to GoT/ASOIAF. Your opinions and insights are the only ones that matter.
I know the mountain was ultimately responsible for her horrific death but the Targaryen’s had a huge part to play in it. She and her children were practically kept prisoner by Aerys towards the end of the war and Rhaegar abandoned her and their own children while chasing after Lyanna and having a child with and marrying her instead.
Elia and her children were the biggest victims in Robert’s Rebellion. I understand why Rhaegar took Lyanna to have another child, but that doesn’t justify it. Many monarchs had a mistress, so why couldn’t he? You may argue that he wouldn’t have considered it “honorable,” but abandoning your wife and children for a girl that’s practically a child isn’t any more honorable. Did he ever consider that the three heads of the dragon would be him and his two siblings? Through the incest, they were all part Blackwood, so they had the blood of the First Men and the Valyrians.
Keep in mind that after him Rhaella had many miscarriages and many of the children died at infancy, so he couldn't be very sure when Viserys was born and Dany was born very late.
Why would Lyanna name her son Aegon, when Rhaegar already had a son by that name? And even if he was already dead by the time her baby was born, what a thoughtless (and unlucky) thing to do.
D&D stupid writing . Aegon(elia's son) is probably alive in the books and nicknamed as young griiff and since they did not include him in the show they gave jon his name
I hate how some people say that because Elia was from Dorne, she gave consent for Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna. Just because she came from a place where they were looser about their marriage vows doesn't mean she'd be fine with her HUSBAND dishonoring her!
Knowing how elia & her children suffered in their last moments, I never understood how the starks were still considered a 'noble' house. not when ned enabled robert in killing them
@@batman-gu7pm yeah...wait what? The other Aegon got smashed in the Sack of Kings Landing which had already happened during the Battle at the Tower of Joy
I can forgive Rhaegar for marrying and having a child with Lyanna, because he thought that's what the prophecy demanded. I even give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he explained these things to Elia. HOWEVER, he didn't have to shame Elia in front of everyone by not crowing her, his pregnant wife, the queen of love and beauty. That was beyond rude. No prince charming would do that.....
YOU CAN FORGIVE HIM FOR CHEATING???? man... are u ok Rhaegar Targaryen is a RAT, selfish, and pedophile. His obsession with the prophecy doesn't justified for what he did. Lyanna Stark is a CHILD and Rhaegar is a grown ass man with a wife and 2 children. HE CHEATS ON HIS WIFE AND ABANDONED THEIR KIDS.
@@ara-vf2gz B Peoples just said that Rhaegar what he did because of the prophecy. Say what you will that he may have just made it up but it'd be a huge coincidence that he was actually right. The Others are coming. What's the point of morality if the alternative is the doom of the world?
@@ara-vf2gz I am very ok, thank you for asking. I assume that the Rhaegar described in the books would have told Elia about the prophecy and not simply run off with Lyanna hence the "give him the benefit of the doubt" comment. I believe his intentions were honest. However, his shaming her at the tourney was in no way excusable. So, we have different interpretations of some of the book's unstated events.
@@jkasdhn99 Except Rhaegar wasn't sure that the doom of the world was coming. The only major hints we got are from a decade and a half after he died. The fact that he might have been correct is only proven to the audience years later. He didn't know for sure that the world was being threatened and basically caused all this chaos on a hunch, out of something he read in a book.
I really wish they would do a prequel for Game of Thrones that takes place just before Robert's Rebellion this is such a good story and could've added more depth to what happens in Game of Thrones had they not fucked up so bad.
I refused to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were some careless hypocritical twats. From the description of their characters and what people have said about them I don’t want to believe that they just abandoned their lovers for absolutely no reason I want an explanation for this.
I just want to put this out there because I love seeing the reactions of R+L=J supporters: George RR Martin said Jon is about 8 or 9 months older then Daenerys which means he was born during or a little bit after the Sacking Of King’s Landing and that had to have been weeks maybe even a month before Ned arrived at the Tower Of Joy just as Lyanna was giving birth which makes it literally impossible for it to have been Jon Snow being born there and personally I’m completely ok with that because I do not want what is arguably the most Altruistic character in the books to be the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna after what they did, I hope George RR Martin goes with N+A=J because it is more complex and bittersweet and it makes Ned Stark’s character more tragic because he got screwed over by Lyanna’s selfishness and Rhaegar’s own brand of madness. *leans back in chair and grabs popcorn* and now for the fireworks :)
@@buddyfats4768 Does anyone still think the show to be canon? The show also said Cold hands is Benjen, but GRRM came out and said in person that they are different entities.
@@whuizz6923 I don't treat anything after season 4 in the show canon. But there is an overwhelming amount of reasons to believe R+L=J will happen in the books, most people who deny it are just contrarians who got bored of R+L=J that are just looking for another answer that is more fun to them
Elia is so pure and good that people ruin her character when they say she might have known of Rhaegar's affair and allowed it. If Oberyn of all people was pissed, how do you think Elia his wife, felt?
Yes. But you got to think of the times they were based on. Women of their age often turned a blind eye to their husband's affairs and bit their tongues. However, some.did bid their times in real life and got revenge. Elenore of Aquitaine did.
@@v.9964 You think that makes Elia's fate okay? Or that it justifies Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark's deaths? The war that followed? None of what Rhaegar did was okay!
seriously, hate rhaegar and lyanna elia and her children deserved so much better and honestly cannot understand how can people believe that lyanna's and rhaegar's story is a romantic tale I like jon snow and even after season 8 but heir of the seven kingdoms my ass because of his dad and mom elia and her children are death eventhough the lannisters gave the orders he is better off as being Ned's child hopefully in the BOOKs young griff can kill the mountain or aatleast danenerys burn them so they can be avenge.
I feel like I always enjoy the story of what happened in the past before the series started bad opposed to the actual series. But I guess that’s to be expected. Everyone loves a good legend and lore.
Everyone says they feel bas for Rhaegar and Lyanna and their love story. Lyanna was a homewrecker. Because of her actions, so much suffering is caused.
Wait wait wait WAIT wayminnit!!!! So you’re telling me that not only did Lyanna take Elia’s man….but she also named her son the same and Elia’s as well?! What a total douche move!
First, she was screwed over by her unfaithful pedophile husband who ran away with that hypocrite thot Lyanna Stark, and secondly she was screwed over by Aerys, when he didn't allow her to leave for Dragonstone with Viserys and Rhaella, an action that eventually lead to her rape, murder and death of her children. We can talk about how the Starks and the Baratheons have been dishonored and wronged by the Targaryens, but in my opinion the one who was screwed over the most was Elia.
Lyanna and Raegar were the real villains. His wife and kids got slaughtered whilst he was away on his honeymoon. And THEY ended up having one the most noble characters as their child, i.e. Jon Snow. Mind boggles.
Rhaegar died before the Lannisters reached King's Landing. Rhaegar led the royal army against Robet's rebels and he was killed one on one by Robert. It was only after Rhaegar died and his army defeated that Tywin marched on KL to kill all the Targaryens
I really wonder what was in Raegar head. Crown prince can not just throw away his marriage and children like that. But, geeeez, dis is so romantic. Pff.
Elia Martell was the most tragic character in GOT!! She suffered so much for no fault of hers and died a horrible death!! Fuck both Rhaegar and Lyanna, I have no sympathy for them, they destroyed that poor girl's life along with her children's!! 💔 The Martell house had every right to completely wipe out the asses of the Lannisters for what they did to sweet and lovely Elia!!
@Fedor Silva rhaella was married to a mad man.aerys loved tywin lannister "s wife.his marriage to his sister rhaella was loveless.aerys would rape her,she used to shout ,Jaime Lannister said after aerys raped her the queen had injuries as though a cat had attacked the queen.both Elia and rhaella suffered but Elia"s death was more gruesome.
I don't hate Rhaegar, but stuff like this gets me kind of close. The best thing Robert ever did might have been when he buried his warhammer in Rhaegars chest.
Elia seems like a beautiful woman and have vicious heart. But truth is she faced the betrayal from her husband, and still protecting her children at the end of her life. Lyanna just like a innocent girl who never hurt anyone, but she said King Robert will not loyal to her forever, then she choose the guy have marriage and children, lyanna is the scheming and selfish girl, she probably didn’t know her family will Die for her, and Robert will start a war for her finally
The last part is important, both Rahella and Elia were the wives of two Targaryen husbands, and they were such bad husbands. We don't know if Lyanna would have been happy with him, they barely knew each other. He might have loved her, but we don't really know how he would had been as a husband. So poor. Rahella, poor Elia and poor Lyanna. Looks like it's not such a good idea to marry a Targaryen lol
I used to think Rhaegar and Lyanna were like the Romeo and Juliet of Westeros but they were just terrible people to begin with. Team Elia Martell all the way 🙌🏼
Considering that Lyanna was in the ToJ, a place in DORNE, and Dayne was all "My master, right or wrong" in regards to Rhaegar, I can definitely believe it.
irondragonmaiden but seems people also forget the dornish folks didn’t take relationships that serious they are known to bed multiple people at once I can’t see her growing up around that and then being taken aback when her husband beds another
@@ronshaywalker3918 Dornish don't take relationships seriously?! Really? Then Ellaria didn't make a big speech about how Oberyn won't be there for her to hug, talk to, or be with her in old age because he's dead in her speech against the cycle of revenge? Yeah, totes didn't take that relationship seriously! Then Doran wasn't brokenhearted when Mellario left him because she couldn't adapt to the Westerosi custom of sending your kid to grow up as a ward in order to foster political allies? Yeah, that relationship totes wasn't taken seriously! If anything, these are some of the most serious relationships PRECISELY because you don't need a piece of paper saying they are married for their feelings to be real. What they are is PRACTICAL. Marriages are meant to be business mergers wherein a child is part of the merger through having both Houses inherit something. The impractical part about Andal and Northern Westeros is that they expect both parties, or at least the woman, to be faithful and fall in love. The Dornish, on the other hand, are more practical. Marry and have children as the merger and duty demands, sure, but if you don't fall in love, then both sides get to have lovers on the side. That's called being practical, not that they don't care about their real romantic relationships. Hell, if anything, that's why Ellaria and Oberyn weren't married. As a bastard, Ellaria can't inherit or push her family forward politically in a marriage. She's not treated badly like in Andal or Northern Westeros, but she also doesn't have the same power and rights to land/titles as a legitimate noble. This, again, means that the Dornish are PRACTICAL when it comes to marriage and love and sex, three things that are NOT necessarily the same thing. Who you marry isn't who you necessarily love romantically. So, again, while I can see Elia being alright with Lyanna being the UNMARRIED MISTRESS (and that's if she's a huge saint and forgets about how Rhaegar insulted her in public according to HIS culture!), she sure as fuck wouldn't be OK with her marrying Rhaegar and so set to steal HER SON'S inheritance. But yeah, do tell how many other ways L/R fans want to let Lyanna and Rhaegar off the hook for doing Elia dirty.
Lords Paramount with exception of House Tyrell are descendants of the kings of their respective regions. The Principality of Dorne was never completely conquered so they kept their titles and styles of Prince/Princess of Dorne.
Everyone here is shitting on Lyanna, but don't forget she was only sixteen (not an age for brilliant decisions). Rhaegar is the adult married man who ran off with her, probably for no other reason than to have a prophesied third child (and possibly try to pull an Aegon I polygamy gambit). Sure, he and Elia were likely just an arranged marriage where both got along at best (typical for Westeros). But even if Martin would later make clear that she was on board with Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar didn't do even half the things he could to keep his wife and mother of his children safe. Elia is the wronged party in all of this and never did anything to deserve her fate.
Queen Rhaella was named the Queen of love and beauty by a landed knight name Sir Bonifer from the Stormlands. Isn’t it possible that these two had a love affair just before Rhaella married the mad king and Bonifer is really Rhaegar’s true father! Evidence of this is 1. Rhaegar was born “soon after” they were married. 2. Mad king had a lot of difficulty having healthy children with Rhaella but Rhaegar was easy and healthy because he had a different father. 3. After the marriage Sir Bonifer became super pious, very similar to what happened with Lancel after what he did with Cersei. 4. Ironically Rhaegar names Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty because tragically his real father did the same thing for a love that he could never have.
Was it Elias death that inspired Oberyn to become one of the greatest fighters in Westeros? I'm sure he was well trained as a child but he really excelled going so far as to become a mercenary.
No, Oberyn honed his skills as a warrior when he was exiled by his own mother because he slept with Lord Yronwood's paramour, resulting to a match with the said lord and his death. He then went on to study at the Citadel, and later on, joined the Second Sons in Essos and even formed his own company. The former princess of Dorne exiled her own son because of his foolishness. The above statement somehow contradicts the argument of "Elia would have been fine with Rhaegar taking on another wife because she's DORNISH". If their own mother can exile her brother, because of rashness and foolishness of only sleeping with a Lord's paramour, then that speaks more than what people perceive Dornish Culture. They may be somewhat called lewd and wanton, but duty to them is Paramount. They would pass on judgement even to their own, for the sake of peace.
I think the main reason Rhaegar was so eager to marry and have a child with Lyanna was bcs he had a dragon dream about this child being the prince that was promised, not bcs he loved Lyanna so much. However that doesnt excuse how selfish this was towards Ellia, by both Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Honestly people dont talk enough about how Lyanna was villainous and almost as bad as Rhaegar in her own right. She KNEW full well that Rhaegar was married with two kids, she knew that marrying Rhaegar would be dangerous for Elia and would turn her children into bastards. As a woman in her time, she knew how difficult life would become for Elia as an unmarried woman with two bastard children and she still chose to run away with Rhaegar. Even after the revelation characters only ever blame Rhaegar and not Lyanna and nobody besides the Martells gave a fuck about Elia.
You deserve a standing ovation for this comment, mate. If i have to imagine an afterlife, i like to imagine Rhaegar getting his ass impaled by Oberyn's poisoned spear and his chest broken by Robert's war hammer again, while Elia and her children watch with immense satisfation, and Lyanna getting slapped and called a slut by her father and older brother.
I guess to some extent this was based on the story of Mary the Scots, she was not stupid, she was a queen, but she could not rule her feelings, let her lover arrange the murder of her husband and then tried to get married to him, it was also not clear if she was kidnapped or if they conspired to make it look like kidnapping, anyways, she lost her head because of that. I don't really understand why Mad King made him marry a Dornish girl if he hated Martell's?
I am starting to think it wasnt Rhaegar who won the tourney and Harrenhall. Maybe he was, but there was definitely some magic involved. He unhorsed Barristan the Bold and the Sword of the Morning? I say there were rubies, so there was glamour and even blood magic involved.
That is the reason Aegon should survive!! I really want Young Griff to be real Aegon because that would be justice for her and Rhaenys. At last Tywin failed, Aegon should surely avenge his sister and mother, and Tywin's got his whole legacy killed. Plus I read it they Aegon can fulfill Cersei's prophecy, he is younger and beautiful, can take the throne and power from Cersei, plus he is little brother of Rhaenys the valnoquar as it wasn't specified wheteher the little brother would be of cersie's own or someone else's.
I believe it has to do with his theory/fascination with the Prince that was promised prophesy… he deeply believed that out of him the promised prince would be born and “his is the song of ice and fire”. The Targaryen being fire. So my theory is that he thought that Lyanna Stark would be the ice, hence his protectiveness.
Love how the picture of Rhaenys, who allegedly died at about five years of age, shows a woman who has got to be between the ages of....I'm going to be diplomatic and say *sixteen* here...and 30. It's not whycreate's fault, as this picture is used a lot. It's just a little hilarious
