As an atheist, I tend to take the view that people like Barton were sincere in their belief that they were experiencing some sort of genuinely supernatural manifestation of their intense faith. However, my take on it is what they were in fact experiencing was some sort of physical illness or mental disorder, or some combination of the two.
It's interesting that though you mentioned no evidence of sexual imorality, that was a charge brought against her. This seems to be the fall back accusation for women who threaten the power of men.
Didn't they do that to Joan of Arc as well? Betraying her, berating her, her guards raping her before the church and her "allies" turned against her and burned her for being a wanton heretic/apostate.
I would love to see a program about Margery Kempe, a medieval woman who left her home, husband & family, and took pilgrimage to the Holy Land, all while having visions and "fits". She was considered either a saint or pain in the butt by those who knew her, and was one of the very few common people who have had their life recorded. The Book of Margery Kempe is a lively read, and gives a good account of the interlocking businesses of moving pilgrims from Europe to the Middle East and back again - it was a regular tourist route. I've read her story more than once; it's quite a lively document, and gives insight into life in the late 15th century. It's also the oldest autobiography in English we have.
Hi Dr. Kat, I was reading a book that reminded me that Queen Anne had 18 pregnancies, including a number of miscarriages and stillbirths, and only 1 child who survived past age 2. Her sister Mary II had 3 miscarriages. Catherine of Braganza also had 3 miscarriages. Meanwhile Charles II had at least about a dozen illegitimate children who survived to adulthood. Can you talk about reasons why these women had so much trouble producing an heir. Why the wide difference in survival between colonists and royalty? How do the royal survival rates compare to those of nobility during the same period? I'm into family history and I had quite a few ancestors living in Plymouth Colony who had 10 or more children survive to adulthood in the 1600s.
IMO, unless it's going to make someone feel bad, it's always better to laugh than cry if you can. Henry VIII labeling ANYONE else as a sexually immoral hypocrite is beyond ironic...
Exactly! The entire Church of England was created because Henry VIII had an itch and chose to have it scratched even if it meant divorcing (no pun intended) England from Rome. Had Anne Boleyn NOT stood her ground that she was not going to be another one of the King's mistresses (as her sister had been), things might have been different. But Henry could not/would not be denied even if he had to set fire to everything around him. So I just think it's comical for him and his court to damn any woman who stood in his way as "wonton, sexually immoral" and basically whores when he was tapping more than any wanton drunk at a pub.
@@creativewriter3887 Absolutely agree about the CofE. I tend to think Anne was an opportunist but her ending was still horrid and a set up! Henry was an absolute first class psycopath and a pathetic unhinged individual with little regard for anyone who stood in his way.
I saw this video and went “ooooOOoooooohhhh!” I’ve been reading some historical fiction and it brought back up the Nun of Kent, so I’m thrilled to dive more into her history. 🤗
I can't imagine what torments she was put through in order for her to retract everything she said, and they did so knowing her weakness in her health. I believe her to be a good and holy maid who's predictions did come true but in a round about way. Henry was excommunicated from the church.
Looking at the basic facts, it feels like Barton really did believe that the things she saw were visions. It's likely that she saw weird things due to some circumstances (mental health issues, schizophrenia or some external source?) and chose to interpret them in a way that just happened to align with the beliefs of the pro-Catholic faction, flying in the face of Henry VIII's plans. I highly doubt she was guilty of any of the crimes she was accused of and then beheaded for. From where I stand, Barton was an honest young woman who wanted nothing more than the integrity of the church she grew up worshipping in and the queen she grew up admiring (given that she reportedly was a close associate of Wolsey after she started having visions, it's likely she would have known what was going on in the royal household even before the push for annulment became public). Henry couldn't have anyone running around opposing his God-given authority, so first he humiliated her with false rumours and then murdered her on false charges. Very interesting case.
I've gotten hallucinations from migraine aura, from lack of sleep, from fevers, & from the manic phases of bipolar disorder. If I was alive in Medieval Europe, I'd be thinking I was experiencing things that were possibly prophetic & miraculous, or possibly sent by Satan to tempt me!
@@ReadingthePast A number of years ago I read a book by Margaret George: "The Autobiography of Henry VII: With Notes by His Fool, Will Sommers: A Novel". I'd love to see how you would present Will Sommers.
If history has taught us anything, it's that history is written by the Victor, and Elizabeth Barton wasn't a Victor. Personally, I feel as though she genuinely believed she had visions from God, with how religious people had to be back then and zero knowledge of brain trauma or mental illness other than the extreme, I feel it's very likely she whole heartedly believed she was a prophetess. Love your videos so much!
I don't believe she initially had the intent to deceive. I think she was caught up in events that made her a player in important matters, which she had the unlikely ability to influence, through her circumstances. She was known to have visions. At a time when people saw visions as either from God, or from the devil, it would have been dangerous to deny they were heavenly inspired. Once she accepted that these visions were from God, she herself became convinced. Why else would important members of clergy and court be bothered with her, unless she was divinely inspired? To an ignorant peasant girl, it must have seemed entirely reasonable to accept this "gift." We can see a similar situation in the present day with Greta Thunberg. Powerful people using well meaning, naive young people to influence great matters of government is nothing new.
Whatever caused her visions, I think Elizabeth Barton must have genuinely believed that her prophetic announcements were divinely inspired; how else could she have been so foolish? Predicting the downfall and death of a King, especially this King, was incredibly dangerous. It was, by definition treason. Elizabeth Barton must have had some idea of the danger but she chose to speak out anyway. That’s why I think Barton was for real. If you truly think God is on your side, speaking truth to power is a moral obligation. So she spoke out until they came for her.
That was another good one. Sadly, not much has changed insofar as misogynistic and sexualized slurs getting thrown at high profile women. Back then it was "harlot". Now...
@@GTMemes2 You can call out women for being incompetent, liars, frauds, hypocrites or just generally terrible people without using sexist or sexualized language.
So true! I've experienced being sexualized at work, all of which came from the minds of those who those who made implications. At least they didn't execute me.
Im not, in any way trying to throw stones from within my American glass house. However, after watching a fair number of your videos about people running afoul of Hank VIII, it seems that a lot of faith is placed in the confessions of people subjected to torture. In modern times we know that people being tortured will say anything to make it stop so I'm curious why so many of these stories seem to end with "they confessed to treason" and it goes without a lot of scrutiny. This isn't a criticism because I know there are many valid reasons why you might choose to skip a deeper dive on it. I'm mostly just curious if modern historians actually do accept confessions obtained through torture or threat of execution at face value or do they only accept such testimony when backed up with further evidence? I mean, I I'd confess that aliens abducted the Lindbergh Baby if I thought doing so would prevent me from becoming a toasted marshmallow, you know?
Investigation included torture, that makes any confession suspect. Her crime was to cause Henry upset. That was the crime of all the people that died in connection with his quest to have a son.
I think the idea that she was tortured is a Netflix/The Tudors invention. Reputable online sources like Encyclopedia Britannica say there is no evidence to support the idea.
You mentioned that she had seisures & trance-like catatonia; that sounds like epilepsy to me. It's not unusual for epileptics to have "altered states" that can seem like religious visions. So, she could have been having legitimate experiences that she believed were religious or she could have been a fraud. It just wasn't a good thing to be on Henry the 8ths radar for any reason it seems.
Enjoyed the video. Certainly, Barton was an enigma, who could've been sincere in her philosophy, as a result perhaps of her illness. Her downfall came when her "fraudulent" prophecies were exposed, combined with not heeding More's warnings(of course More was beheaded in 1535), not to meddle in state and Church affairs. In 1534, Henry became Supreme Head of the English Church, and it's no surprise, that the likes of Barton, More, Fisher, and many others, were executed. It is also possible that she was used, and/or allowed herself to be used, by those opposed to Henry's religious reforms. Henry certainly did not countenance criticism against him of any kind, and many paid the ultimate penalty.
*sigh* across all time, it seems like the go to way to discredit any woman is to accuse her of "sexual immorality" (regardless how probable it actually is)
Indeed very "Old Testament", as the famous Profet Elijah treated Queen Jezebel & King Ahah of Israel, in the 9th century BC, of the very same. And it indeed happened: Queen Jezebel was thrown from a high window into the street, were dogs devoured her unattended body. ✌🏻
I don't know if I think she was a scheming con artist or just an unfortunate deluded tool of powerful men who used her condition for their own ends, but I do know one thing: I have some reading to do! (an additional motivation for me is that there's a good chance I'm distantly related to her. )
Dear Dr.Kat I have discovered your videos by accident. I have alway been interested in history an have seen many videos but your way of narration (t is very cler that you are academic just by the way how you speak) is amazing. I have been watching all your videos one after another lately. Thank you very much for your work. I would be very happy if you had some videos on war of roses (very confusing o me) or a reaction on the Tudors series. HOwever since I have seen all your videos, it is alo possible, that you you have produced such videos. In that case I apologise. Greetings from Slovakia/ Germany.
Maybe like the Salem witchcraft girls. Women were so marginalized and so maligned many times, that this gave her power and fame, which she really could not have gotten any other way. I don’t know. Great video! Very interesting. Maybe I’ll write about her in my English class. Thanks!
Even if Elizabeth Barton were possessed of the power to heal the sick and raise the dead; in that day and time, speaking publicly against Henry Tudor's Great Matter, of G-D's wrath toward him, and of the shortening of his reign as a result of his current path was - quite literally - putting a noose around her own neck.
We'll never know if Elizabeth Barton had a connection with God. What matters is that she was a young woman, who thought she had a connection to God, wanted to serve her church and help people serve God. She had other ways to make money off the great & powerful, mainly by becoming someone's mistress. In the end she became a tool of the great men of her time & ended the way so many others ended once they were no longer useful. Whatever her true beliefs and calling in life, she did not deserve a rough wooden scaffold & her head on a pike.
It's interesting to think how possible mental illness or ideations brought by religious zelousy of one woman and subsequent mass delusion prompted by religious receptivness unfolded in such a way we still learn or it today. Elizabeth could've very well believed what she preached as the times made prophetic dreams a believable thing. It kind of reminds me of the Fatima children who dreamt up Virgin Mary, and it became a thing, thought in Catholic religion classes. And that was so much later. It only shows that it's the right audience that makes the show.
really interesting. Personally I think that she had visions, and that ignorance meant that they could only be interpreted by diving intervention. She was just too much of a sensation not to be ignored by the church and she was manipulated - I would bet that if Wolsley could have used her for his own ends, he would have. She was just on the wrong side. Interesting that they paid attention to a woman in this matter, I wonder how many other women got the same respect.
For her health problems to be so serious and then to be healed was probably seen by many to be miraculous. That severe illness probably tipped the balance of her mental health in terms of her gratefulness to God for the cure,and possibly convincing her she was special and had an extra obligation and duty to God. Nevertheless I dont see the long term of prophesying as real or truthful because ultimately she did confess to fabrications especially against Henry. I think she was first a religious then a political pawn from some point after her becoming a nun, and she was used, guided, or outright part of a plan to keep Henry in the Catholic church and under church authority. I think she was convinced either by her own hubris, illness, or by others, that she had enough God given power to influence the Kings future, and the kingdoms, too. When she confessed to fabrications I think her mental state was such that she was trying to resist being further used. According to the law of the time Elizabeth Barton was guilty of treason. We see her as someone who should not have been put to death for mere words, but to encourage instability in the Kings rule was quite against the law, and her interference in the Kings personal life was actually an affront to him on multiple levels. She did not hold status or office enough to make any judgements whatsoever when it was found she had lied and fabricated prophecy and I am sure Henry was highly offended by her daring, and angry at her presumption. I see her fate as set from the time she was led or was convinced she could go against the King, and the religious authorities who surrounded her must have been aware of it but hoped all focus would be on her... but why they wanted to continue to be associated with her must have been that they needed to stay close to know what else she might say about THEM... I figure that the men didnt get away with anything since they too were hanged... someone must have known Elizabeth had become a mouthpeice for the church and decided they all needed to be punished.
It sounded to me like she was genuine. I imagine that she got too comfortable with her position though - speculating about the king's death was so dangerous, even before Anne Boleyn's trial. Much too high vis for such a charged situation
Considering Her illness, it was not uncommon for people to have religious visions often from fevers from battle wounds, & coma. St Francis Assisi, St Francis Xavier etc. Thank Elizabeth Barton was genuine but eventually manipulated by people with anterior motives.
If she had somehow received "visions" that supported Henry viii in his Great Matter, we know without a doubt that she would have been favored and believed by the king. She simply had a different view point, so he wanted to get rid of her.
Imo Barton was "a true believer", but someone who "enjoyed the attention". Who would not? Certainly a minimally educated lower class girl//woman of the period must have revelled in the respect, notority and benefits she gained. However I believe she probably suffered from a schitzoid affective disorder, perhaps combined with epilepsy. If so, compared to others suffering from the "falling sickness" she must have been relieved to be not just tolerated but acclaimed for her malady. Of course those in better circumstances took advantage of her, but many of them probably believed her to be genuine too. The religious unease caused by the King's Great Matter exacerbated fears and doubts. Basically wrong place, wrong time, wrong ruler.
Holy maid of Kent Long ago in England there lived a maid in Kent a pious daughter of the Church to a convent she was sent. From dreams and holy visions Elizabeth prophesied To the gentry in the country she was known both far and wide. Princes sought her council, Bishops, Priests, and Kings The monarch of all England came and she kissed his golden ring. She warned Him of the danger she saw from in her dream. "Weddest not wench Anne Boleyn and put away the Queen." The king flew into a tirade He insulted her and cursed "I am the King of England and I'll rule the English Church. My minions shall obey me and if any man objects I'll deem him to be treasonous and he'll lose his bloody head." The nun was soon arrested and tortured for her faith murdered in the morning and her head hung on a gate. Many martyrs followed her on the way to Calvary Sir Thomas More, and Fisher too left this world in poverty. England became mercantile with the loot she'd confiscate England became the harlot drunk on the blood of saints. Still England is the dowry, of Mary Queen of Grace Five hundred years of heresy can never this erase.
Reminds me of some of the 'oracles' in ancient Greece, who often worked in caves that had bad air, causing them to have seizures and such, so they genuinely believed they were having visions and many of those around them also truly believed. Makes me wonder if she had something of that ilk going on with her visions/lack of eating/etc. and was tortured into a confession of crimes against the crown.
Hi Kat Eleanor asking for more books/chronicals Love real history 1000 pages ok More of Europe/1200-1400 Germany, Catholics empires and especially queens consorts and history of the females in royalty in history
Is it cynical to say that Elizabeth's first prophesy wasn't actually anything miraculous? That a child of the time, already sick enough to be segregated in a "sick room" would be likely to die?
considering the cast of Characters assailing the maid, most noteworthy Tomas Cromwell "the dockside bully" of Bolts play, that serial letcher killer Henry, and Tomas Crammner who abolished the holy mass. I'd suspect that this maid was worthy of praise not deserving of having her head chopped off and hung up to frighten the public into submission. she may not have been holy but her martyrdom washed her in the blood of Christ himself and that is what makes us holy.
Do I believe she had divine visions? No. Do I believe she thought she did? Maybe - at some point, yes, I think she had visions and if you are a devout person, you have to fit these things into your existing belief structure or define a new one. Do I think there came a point at which she realized she had power in this situation and began manipulating it? Probably, yeah. Consciously or unconsciously? I couldn't say.
Old Henry had all the impulse control of the cocaine bear - Ms Baron never stood a chance in becoming a Catholic Christian Prophet at the time he was getting ready to cut off England from the Rome and suchlike. She was in the wrong place at exactly the wrong time.
There are very few issues with whlich I actual grew with Henry VIII, but this is one. As a nurse, I do not believe that there was a medical problem with Barton's stomach that made her unable to eat. I think she was clearly eating and drinking while she told others to fast almost to the point of death. She committed treason by foretell ing the death of the king. I do not like that law, but it was the law the time. She ultimately confessed because she knew she had been found out. I think it all started because, after becoming a servant, she realized that wasn't the life she wanted. I believe she enjoyed the fame,the money that came with it, but also the fact that rich and powerful people were seeking her out and listening to her. I find her orders to people to fast to the point of starvation to be reprehensible. She is probably one of the very few executions ordered by Henry that I don't particularly feel bad about.
I am inclined to believe that Barton was truthful and sincere in her beliefs, but I don't know if that precludes her or others from recognising the benefits they brought her.
I think its a little of all three. I think she truly believed what she saw and i think she enjoyed the attention just like most people would. I also believe that those who found out about her decided to take advantage of the situation and use her for their own political/ecclesiastical agendas. History has a sad way of twisting our perception of what really happened in the past. So anything is possible.
Dr.Kat, I love your voice! When I want to be soothed before bed, I watch one of your videos. I learn and relax all at the same time! Absolutely lovely.🥰
Another superbly informative video, I'd read about Elizabeth Barton before but you really give an excellent detailed account... By the way, do take care, you're repeating an easily-made error that I noticed in a previous video: the word is "misprision", not "misprison" - it's pronounced mis-pri-zhin, with the 'zh' like the 's' in "pleasure" (: Keep up the fantastic work, Dr Kat.
Thank you for letting me know how to correctly pronounce “misprision” - I use that word at least once a week - and have been doing so incorrectly… until now that is. I’m grateful that you took the time and told me so kindly 😊
Always enjoy your content!!! Thanks for sharing!!! And for my 2 cents... or bits... or pents... or whatever yall call it across the pond there lol... But it seems to me if this woman was JUST a schemer who wanted to be famous and get rich, she would've said nicer things about the literal king, who was decidedly the most famous person in the country, had access to the wealthiest people in the country and beyond, including other royals, had oddles of money himself & absolutely no hesitation in loppin off folks noggins to then stick up as yard ornaments... Im just saying that seems like an uber poorly planned get rich quick scheme... it would've been a good plan had her end goal been to be tortured and publicly executed...
The “get rich quick”scheme does not fit with the fact that she took the vows of Poverty, Chastity ad Obedience as she entered convent and became a NUN. Nuns do not own anything at all, even the most insignficant item. Any wealth a woman owns, is given as a Dowry to her Order of Nuns when she enters the convent.. Because she had visions, she belonged in a convent where she could be cared for and protected from the world. Her visions even directed her tto become a Nun. The Church had the responsibility to protect her Perhaps the Princes of the Church, were blindsided by the measures Henry VIII took to silence all who pointed out that divorce and re-marriage while the ex spouse still lives was Adultery. a mortal sin. He really got his feeings hurt and got revenge on all of them including a Nun.
My "knowledge" of Elizabeth Barton was previously confined to "Wolf Hall", so thank you for this. Whatever her mental and physical disposition actually was, she was certainly attention-seeking, and taking on Henry VIII's regime definitely wasn't wise.
Is there a clear line between mental illness and prophetess? I have spent time with people who today are labelled mentally ill and they sometimes see things more clearly than those who have "normal" mental perceptions. I am willing to accept that Elizabeth Barton was a prophetess. Those who were her spiritual leaders maybe should of cautioned her to keep some of her prophesies private. However dying for you religious and suffering for your strongly held beliefs, is a sure way into heaven, if that is what you believe.
I expect Elizabeth Barton truly believed in her visions, at least originally, since religious fervor was a frequent characteristic of medieval through renaissance time. At that time (and probably earlier and later) humans needed the belief system the church and other ‘organized religions’ provided as an antidote to the fear of not understanding the natural/physical sciences at work in the world. As time passed, she probably did fall victim to what everyone around her was telling her. I think the original priest that started all the kerfuffle about her was more to blame for starting the ‘media’ storm that she fell victim to. Just an opinion.
Gosh, it is hard to judge someone, especially someone who lived centuries past. My opinion is that she is not someone I find interesting or worth pursuing further study, but I do consider her extremely brave for "seeing" King Henry's death.
She was a pawn in men's games, as women were treated in those times, with no voice of their own so definitely feel she was used as such. Poor lady, bless her soul ❤❤
I'm not sure what I think, to be honest, after all, Joan of arc and Bernadette Suberou made declarations of hearing voices, and seeing the Virgin Mary, Joan died in the most horrific manner..I think it's safest to keep an open mind
The patriarchy of the times and the Catholic Church make women out to be the heavy. Therefore it's difficult to tell what her actual intentions were. It's a posture the Church has perpetuated to this day. Woe be to the people who challenge authority of men. Either the King's or the Roman Catholic Church's.
Barton shows us that today's schemes and griftings are more of the same old same old. Her activities remind me so much of trump especially of his carrying on of the last couple of weeks.
When learning of Barton I began seeing her as an attention seeker that was addicted to being the focus of so many people. Good or negative didn’t matter just that she kept all eyes on her and was the center of attention all the time. I was reminded of the girls that were involved in the Salem Witch Trials. If they saw that they weren’t the sole focus of attention they would start throwing themselves down on the ground screaming and writhing saying that they were being tortured by invisible apparitions called upon by the accused. I think Barton was the same. She never mattered before her “gift” was noticed by someone prepared to gain from using her. She was addicted to all of the attention from the upper echelons of society. They were giving her a better life than she could ever dream of and she would do what ever she could to keep the focus on her.
