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Endnotes Spelling Bee: I Before E 

Alliterative
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This is the first in a series of short episodes about individual problematic spellings in English, responding to comments from our Spelling video • Why is English spellin... . This one covers the "I before E" rule.
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Transcript:
Welcome to the Endnotes Spelling Bee! In this miniseries I’m following up on the question I asked in my video about Spelling: what are your spelling pet peeves? First up, I tackle the dreaded I before E rule.
Viewers RMoribyashi and Silkwesir brought this one up. So, the main problem with the I before E except after C rule is that it isn’t actually a rule. It’s just a mnemonic invented in the 19th century. It doesn’t reflect any reality about the phonological histories or etymologies of the words, it’s just meant to work in many but not all circumstances. And the common formulation of the mnemonic isn’t complete anyway, as it should have in its full form some sort of restriction as in “I before E except after C or when sounded as A as in neighbour and weigh” or “I before E except after C when the sound is E”. These fuller forms catch some of the exceptions, but not all, such as sufficient and plurals of words that end in cy like frequencies (with a c followed by an i), and seize (with an ei pronounced /i/ not /eɪ). The underlying problem here is that a number of different vowel sounds are represented by these two letter combinations, vowel sounds that changed in different ways over time and came from a number of different source languages. This is in part a function of the English language having contained, over its long history, far more distinct vowel sounds than vowel letters to represent them, so that the same couple of vowel combinations were introduced again and again in different contexts as the sounds changed. For instance the word eight comes from Old English eahte or æhta, which became ehte in Early Middle English, diphthongized to eighte in later Middle English because it was followed by a guttural sound, which was then dropped to leave us with Modern English eight. The commonly cited exceptions neighbour and weigh followed similar paths. A number of words with the ei and ie spellings come from Old French ultimately from Latin with a number of different vowel sounds: Latin vena with an e becomes Old French veine and English vein with an /eɪ pronunciation, while Latin brevis becomes bref in Old French and Middle English and brief in Modern English. Latin decipere (a prefixed form of capere) becomes Old French decevoir and English deceive with an /i/ pronunciation. Latin licere becomes Old French and Middle English leisir and Modern English leisure. Latin sufficiens with two distinct vowel sounds keeps the same ie as it goes from Old French to Modern English sufficient. And finally the Latin adverb foris produced the Medieval Latin adjective foraneus which becomes Old French forain and has a number of Middle English forms such as ferren, foran, foreyne before settling down as Modern English foreign. And that still doesn’t cover it all. As viewer The Hard Problem2 quipped, "'I' before 'E', except after 'C', and when sounding like 'A' as in 'neighbor' and 'weigh' and all throughout August and the month of May and you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!"
I’ll be continuing to respond to your comments and suggestions in more Spelling Bee videos intermittently for the next while, in between other main videos. Thanks for all the responses, you've given me lots to work with! As always, you can hear even more etymology and history, as well as interviews with a wide range of fascinating people, on the Endless Knot Podcast, available on all the major podcast platforms as well as our other RU-vid channel. Thanks for watching!

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9 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 34   
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
Thanks to RMoribyashi and Silkwesir for suggesting this topic, and TheHardProblem2 for the 'poem' at the end! I'll be working my way through other questions intermittently for a while.
@RMoribayashi
@RMoribayashi 6 лет назад
I before E always reminds me of an exchange between Host Stephen Fry and Lee Mack who seemingly can't get the rule right, much to Stephen's consternation. And yes, that's Daniel Radcliff and Graham Norton on the right side. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3vOi5M6GP_Q.html
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
Always love a bit of QI!
@Aleph_Null_Audio
@Aleph_Null_Audio 6 лет назад
To give credit where credit is due: the poem is a paraphrase of the comedian Brian Reagan. He does a great bit on spelling.
@silkwesir1444
@silkwesir1444 6 лет назад
Thanks!
@ErikHolten
@ErikHolten 6 лет назад
The Hard Problem You made me look it up! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QWzYaZDK6Is.html
@MaraK_dialmformara
@MaraK_dialmformara 6 лет назад
Or the Tumblr formulation: I before E except after C, unless you’re running a feisty heist on a weird beige neighbor
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
Heh!
@screamtoasigh9984
@screamtoasigh9984 6 лет назад
I'd buy that on a v-neck t-shirt if you're looking for channel ideas!
@Theraot
@Theraot 6 лет назад
... Except when you are wearing red socks, on a sunday and during a solar eclipse, and your name is quintavious. Then everything you say is correct.
@CraftQueenJr
@CraftQueenJr 5 лет назад
Alfonso J. Ramos umm... what rule is relevant here.
@joebykaeby
@joebykaeby 6 лет назад
It’s i before e, except after c, and when sounding like a as in neighbor and weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May, and you’ll always be wrong no matter what you say. -Brian Reagan
@KateGladstone
@KateGladstone 6 лет назад
Please look into the weird spellings of COLONEL (in which OLO stands for “urr”) and IRON (whose pronunciation suggests that a better spelling would be IORN). Also, please find out why MARGARINE isn’t spelled MARJARIN: why does GA in that word sound like “juh” instead, and why the E on the end?
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
I'll put those on the list!
@zyaicob
@zyaicob 6 лет назад
Colonel comes from the word 'colonello'. Google the etymology it's really interesting.
@KateGladstone
@KateGladstone 6 лет назад
erm4gundr So, where does the *_pronunciation_* of COLONEL come from?
@exazapperNy2853
@exazapperNy2853 6 лет назад
Awesome series, looking forward to the next episodes. Would love it if you could look into s/c and a/e.
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
Thanks! I'll put those on the list...
@KateGladstone
@KateGladstone 6 лет назад
Because our speech changes faster than our spelling, I’m wondering if we’ll someday end up with a written language that is SO different from our speech that it’ll no longer be possible to relate the spellings AT ALL to the sounds in the spoken words: so that learning to read English will have to be done by rote-memorizing thousands of words as pictures. I’m worried about this because of what has happened (I’m told) to the Tibetan language, over the past 1600 years since they first decided to spell their language with an alphabet. What would have happened, I wonder, if *_English_* spelling had remained exactly the same for the past 1600 years? Would we, today, be saying the word “daily” but still spelling it “gedæghwamlic” because that’s how it was originally spelled and pronounced? What kind of spelling rules and mnemonics would THAT require for education? “Remember, children, in the word ‘daily’ the silent letters are G, E, the other G, H, W, A, M, and C. To remember that, simply memorize this little poem ...” If our spelling, as we have it today, goes without a major upgrade for, oh, the NEXT 1600 years, let’s say, will we eventually slide into such a situation (in which the alphabet no longer does its job, not even partway)?
@KateGladstone
@KateGladstone 6 лет назад
Is there any chance at all that we will eventually want to (or HAVE TO) give English spelling a major upgrade to avoid all those messes that it has gotten itself into? Or are we doomed forever to spell in a way that, gradually over the centuries, is inevitably getting further and further out of sync with the actual speech-sounds?
@ErikNilsen1337
@ErikNilsen1337 6 лет назад
God bless Brian Regn.
@hcesarcastro
@hcesarcastro 5 лет назад
I still can't figure out how the word "friend" got that "i" before the "e".
@screamtoasigh9984
@screamtoasigh9984 6 лет назад
About the accent eh? Wonder what that's aboot!
@thegoodlydragon7452
@thegoodlydragon7452 6 лет назад
I could take 20 minutes to develop a really simple spelling system that would be sufficient to be used for all English words, but the only problem is that it wouldn't be adopted. I think the English spelling system just restricts literacy from being as widespread and universal as it should be. You could also use the time to you save on educating kids to have them read more in the same time frame.
@daveharrison84
@daveharrison84 6 лет назад
What is the deal with the English spelling of the common Vietnamese surname Nguyen (pronounced Win)?
@okovermekeamglight4563
@okovermekeamglight4563 6 лет назад
Why do you say the endless knot in your videos but your channel name is alliterative?
@CraftQueenJr
@CraftQueenJr 5 лет назад
Okovermeke Amglight I want to know too.
@christopherlawley1842
@christopherlawley1842 4 года назад
Kinda sounds like "The Endless Nod" but then I'm not Canadian
@Majoofi
@Majoofi 6 лет назад
Licorice?
@behnam_es
@behnam_es 6 лет назад
Great videos! Would appreciate it more if there was no music in the background all the time!
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
Thanks for the feedback.
@Kalleosini
@Kalleosini 6 лет назад
Why do we sometimes have several letters for the same sound? actually I wanna change my question to; why do we need C when we have K and Z?
@Alliterative
@Alliterative 6 лет назад
I covered some of that in my Spelling video, but I’m intending to do a fuller treatment of the letter C soonish.
@screamtoasigh9984
@screamtoasigh9984 6 лет назад
Some guy was obsessed with C. I saw that on the Latin video by nativlang. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_enn7NIo-S0.html
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