Engine Failure After Takeoff How do You Practice That 

Scott and I briefed and flew this exercise in an A36 a couple of weeks ago--with no intention of carrying the exercise below 300 AGL. We climbed at Vcruise climb and simulated engine failure at 1000 AGL, trying the 45-degree bank turnback at both Best Glide and Landing Without Power speeds, which is a Beech-published speed near Minimum Sink but with enough airflow for control authority sufficient to flare out of the descent. We never got close to our 300 AGL go-around altitude because in each case as soon as we had the runway in sight it was obvious there was no way we could make it to the runway. Further, Gunny and others have shown previously that even with the propeller control pulled to low RPM (which we did in my exercises), there is enough residual thrust that an actual engine failure glide is even steeper than in this exercise. The AOPA video, Gunny's excellent depiction, and my recent exercise confirms once again that what I've taught for over 30 years--that the turnback is indeed "impossible" in Beech Bonanzas--means we might demonstrate this as a "convincer" to skeptics, but there is no amount of training that makes turning back to land wheels down on the runway a viable option in this particular type of airplane. As Gunny's video shows, however, there may sometimes be other options, such as keeping the gear up and aiming for the big helicopter pad at this former US Army training facility, as long as the pilot maintains control and accepts what's within glide range of the airplane. - Thomas P. Turner

Thanks for the presentation. I watched the Oshkosh presentation video, and the takeaway I got from McSpadden, Hirschman, and Schiff was that the maneuver is definitely aircraft dependent. They also emphasized that if the turn back isn't trained to proficiency, it adds risk.

For heavier or 6 cylinder engines, my 4 kinds of EFATO CFI 2 decades ago, he had an easy acronym he created and demo it too on Cherokee 6's he flew charters on in the 1980's. This is for total engine off. THE 999 If you expect to climb at 900 feet or over, and winds are 9knots or more, then he marked the alltimeter marker to 900 feet agl. The 999 NO POWER TURNBACK RULE. Yes he demo it for us to runway of 4, 600 feet long and stopped it in less than 3,k runway only. He didnt believe in BS talking only. That was in 1995.

Thank you, Scott. I'm a pre-solo student pilot (retiree) and your videos are very helpful.

This is very smart. There is a substantial difference between dead stick and the engine at idle. Stay safe. Practice safe.

Scott, thank you. Can always count on being informed after your vids.

@9:14 That's what I call coordinated. I thought the ball was broke for as second..

About AOPA video of June 4, 2021 named "The Runway Behind You' The Bonanza i noticed was using too much IAS and less banking on the turnback. Went too far wide and could not reach the runway from 1,000 agl. Some flaps can be pop out too to use minimum sink speed instead of the Vglide. Minimum sink is Just around the Vfinal speed with some flaps for most airplanes. I suggest not to use the electric trim at all. Too easy to overpull with it. This is a Hook Turn or Question Mark Turnback shape. They are used on EFATO, GRM Flyovers and Box Canyon Turnbacks. 3 places to use them. Good to learn that Hook Turnback maneuver well. I taught them to many in my cfi years. You start doing them on GRM, level with some flaps, bit under the Vglide speed, then Box Canyon Turnback style, and EFATO partial power kind, THEN no power kind. EFATO turnbacks at airport at end always. Not power all off at beginning like i seen some and not working due pilot errors on it. I have many Hook Turnback videos on my channel playlist.

Thanks Scott, this is something we don't like to think about because it's not going to happen to me at that altitude. We fool ourselves into a false sense of security.

Good stuff Scott! I wish I could have you as a flight instructor.

Breaking the turnback out as a separate step is a really smart, safe, thing to do. You mentioned not trying it at all at Vx. That makes sense, too, unless some extra care is taken. I've practiced Vx simulated engine outs, landing straight ahead, and would suggest to anyone doing that a) don't count to 3 seconds. You probably don't have 3 seconds. Get the nose down quickly. b) don't even think about turning until you have the nose down, and the speed back up to somewhere between Vx and Vy. To me, trying to directly turn out of an engine out at Vx is looking for a stall/spin, more or less as you said.

Thank you Scott. Pre-solo PPL student here too. Logging this in for discussion with my CFI.

Thanks Scott, love the training methodology you described and I'll make it a point to get out there and practice with my CFI.

Some nice radio calls from the Cirrus. Nice video, Mr FlyWire!

Absolutely right-on Scott about being airplane specific (in My opinion). As Chuck Yeager mentioned to me many years ago in a chance encounter in Alaska, when I asked him for one best tip, he replied: "Don't trust everything any one person tells ya about how to fly an airplane, get in there (the cockpit) learn and understand it fer ya-self" Having been taught and practiced the principles you cover here in a V35B and an A36, I was able to successfully execute a 180 back to a downwind landing from about 500ft from the start of a crosswind turn on a long runway after an actual complete power loss, in of all aircraft, a Cessna U206 on Amfib floats when I had no viable options for landing straight ahead. In that case, due to it being a test flight after a fuel system issue was supposedly resolved, I had done a max angle of climb, and due to the aircraft being light and departing into a stiff headwind my climb angle in that very draggy floatplane exceeded the glide angle by a margin. When the engine abruptly quit I was mentally prepared for an engine failure and had enough situational awareness to at that moment deem I might just make it back to at least the airport premier and if not a controlled crash into hospital parking lot next to an emergency room just off the end of the runway. When the engine quit I immediately lowered the nose to maintain best glide speed and did fast, low-G pivot back to the runway, I tried the boost pump briefly and when power was not restored I reduced pitch on the prop and ended up having to slip a bit to touch down 1/3 down the runway. From that and a couple of other actual engine outs landings my take is that it's not only aircraft specific but situation and condition specific. If conditions in the floatplane return had been different, say higher altitude, higher weight or different wind conditions had prevailed I would likely have ended-up well short of the runway. and when I later practiced (demonstrated) the same maneuver in the same aircraft with a CFI and FAA examiner as casual "research exercise" Without the 15 kts of headwind and the prop pitch not reduced the return to the runway ended twice with us having to add power to make the runway. Other considerations my former Air Force Academy instructor conveyed to me during RTLS (Return to Landing Site) practice as he called it was to be aware of all the factors involved in an 'RTLS' and that is required to complete it and what is required to avoid a stall. He also said that in some situations a safe return may not be possible and that it's essential to realize that and plan accordingly, and to consider if a controlled crash on or near an airport with emergency services would be preferable to off airport in a densely developed area, an area of rough terrain or where emergency services might have difficulty finding or reaching you.

Very helpful Scott, thanks!

Great demonstration, food for thought.

Great job. I need to practice this in my 172.

Scott, great informative video and tips. Thanks for sharing...!!

Thanks Scott!

Shared Thx. Mr. Scott Perdue & Crew!

Enjoyed the video very much. It is always good to be prepared. Thanks , Love your display set up.

The other day I was watching a Premier One RU-vid channel video. He was flying from Colorado into Dallas. On the tower radio communications in the video, You could be be heard communicating in a couple of brief exchanges with the Dallas FAA controllers. Small world.

This was a very well made and informative video. If more people had the time to practice "the impossible turn" in this very safe manor. Well done Sir.

Excellent video! Very impressive, sir!

Good stuff. I like the dual cue and sky pointer.👍🏻

Another great video. Thanks for making it. One more thing, Id love to see what your spinner looks like with the engine running. Cheers

Very interesting video. Great shots of that beautiful Bonanza. Really like the sunburst.

Thanks for sharing. Good lesson. Nice to see your video as it's been pretty chaotic with all the fires. Now I'm going to have to check all my pockets! 😮

"Nickle on grass?" looks like you had plenty of room in each case to make the field if not the runway. But in the best one you had the energy to make the runway. I like keeping min sink after the wings level after you have it made. This is also a good illustration of why I don't go to cruise climb until 1,000 ft.. Below 600, it's land straight ahead somewhere - and have a place in mind. Maybe your airplane needs to be higher....?

Well done Scott.

Brilliant thanks. It is good to know that from take off until about 1200 feet in a heavier type (52 knots + stall speed), forget all thoughts of turning back. In lighter types in the 1970s we were simply trained to never even consider it. Who wants to land down wind in any case? If the runway has no upwind bug out fields or lakes, then in theory one should refuse to ever land there in the first place. On my first solo in 1975, while downwind at 800 feet agl, I checked for carb iceing by yanking back the mixture knob, kept that one quiet.

Love this video Scott. What a great thing to stay engaged with practice after we have our license. I have LOVED doing a great deal of trips with friends but also loved the "just me" time to work on scenarios that help us to know where our personal limits are centering around. Good planning and establishing safety buffers for practice helps us to improve and scout out how things look in the airplanes we fly.

Good stuff Scott

Excellent presentation of a hard maneuver. Really good. Thanks for sharing. Saludos !!!

Extend the glide? What about adding fins on top of airfoil; Stol wingtips; Leading edge slats? And how much would those reduce top speed/ economy? Or are they even feasible on the A/G 36? Are they worth the safety investment to get real controllable air speeds down? Speed kills. Search me out I would take a private conversation.......

Great Demonstration of the thought process to stay safe! Thank you Scott!

I helped recover a very nice A36 from Castle Merced. We got a call for a flat tire and showed up to fix a flat. Well we start going over the plane and talking with the two very high time pilots who were doing simulated engine out on a very long runway during a “clinic “. Well when they got to the part that both of their headsets flew off during the hard landing I knew we had more than a flat tire. The left strut was stuck in the collapsed position and with 400 psi added it wouldn’t budge. I looked at the left main spar had paint cracks all the way down the left wing. The fuselage had wrinkles around the cargo door and at that point we called it a crashed airplane and we were not going to aid in getting it airborne until a further inspection was needed. They needlessly wrecked a BORROWED airplane doing questionable training. It was really sad because it was a well equipped A36 that looked beautiful. They got lucky that they didn’t hurt themselves when the elevator lost effect and they landed hard. I’m sure it didn’t end up being an official crash either.

Training is key....emergencies are always a surprise! Had my share of them

👍☑️Very informative, tks Scott.

How much fuel did you have on board? Excellent video. Thanks!

Another excellent video Scott! It's definitely better to count potatoes while you're flying than it is to count sheep. :)

Scott, THIS one, is akin to sitting behind von Karajan at Bayreuth for Götterdämmerung. Thank you, for all you do for us. If anyone cares to pay attention, watch this again and again... Priceless.

Scott, it looks like the first turn back was at 900’ AGL, vs 800’ AGL, see @9:12, 1820’ power pull, 920’ was MSL on takeoff. So for your testing purposes you would’ve been 100’ lower after the turn. The big concrete pad looked like a good option!

Excellent demo Scott. Seems like cruise climb takes you further from the airport for a given Alt(time). Best angle of climb gets you higher/ closer. Airspeed goes away faster the faster you are going, altitude equals time. Fly the airplane to the arrival ( crash). An old guy told me once that the glide ratio of a Piper tripacer could be approximated by throwing a cook stove out the door and following it down. In an F111 once I lost one engine and the other one rolled back to idle at fl200. I rolled out of the tight turn and dumped the nose about 15 degrees and lost 200 knots real fast. Got one going in burner and it all worked out but I was following the cook stove down till I got a relight.

Thanks for making this. People are going to die practicing this the way OTHERS advocate. Awesome.

Wow she is shinning like a star.

Hello Scott from Quarantine house lockdown (exception: essential goods and services and (1) hr exercise per day) Sydney Australia. Armchair pilot's react. The (3) P's *Practice Produces Proficiency. ALTITUDE ENERGY. However- the time taken to analyse the options of straight and level landing v turn back to runway is impossible to simulate. Best wishes 🌏🇦🇺

Interesting note: In a Schweitzer 2-33 sailplane the turnback minimum is 200 feet AGL so there you go for comparison, I agree in a bonanza and many others 1,000 feet is a hard number. Now in my case an exploding engine shakes and rattles like you wont believe! Just another component you might consider is the huge distraction factor with that! You must stay focused and training helps with that, saved my life and two others with me that day. And some luck too!

Like the spinner color

Great demo, on my PPL checkride my DPE slapped my hand off the throttle and pulled power after takeoff and asked where would I go, that got my attention real quick!!!

I just don't think people really think much about this until they face it in real life. Thanks for trying to keep people alive.

One thing I picked on was your take off. I did not see an aggressive pitch attitude during your takeoff. Makes me wonder about accidents in which bonanzas crashed during this critical phase of flight.🛩🛩🛩🛩🛩.

Practicing this on a dry lake bed would be ideal because you could always safely land provided you don't stall. Not so practical tho.

I'll tell you what I did. I got a glider rating. I learned to fly at north perry in Florida

I love these demonstration videos you do!

Off to the side what about that wingless F15. Like to hear your thoughts on the A10.

Sad to see where Richard McSpadden was killed today in a turn back accident.

Scott, thx for this video. Going to practice this in my F33A. Vx is 77, Vy 95. Thought the C was the same. You used 85. Was that speed picked as a “middle of the road” thing?

I earned my private license at an airport in dense suburbs with no good options to put the airplane down without endangering others. I know every pilot should evaluate risk for themselves, but how do you plan for this? All the cornfields have become homes. Avoiding the Andy's Frozen Custard to come down atop the cars in the Home Depot lot isn't great. Should I pick a different home airport?

I see a lot of wide open flat fields nearby to you! We have trees everywhere here in central Alabama!

Your ADI has a sky pointer and a ground pointer? I have never seen that before.

Another point is many times if the engine lets go your windshield may be obscured by oil.

Great training, Scott, really appreciate Your videos! Just one question not pertaining to this particular training, but related to the general operation of Your F33C. In this video I noticed that on Takeoff and establishing a 'Positive Rate' You practically immediately 'Raised the Gear.' Having attended the Army IERW WOFT program over at Ft. Wolters in '68 I'm kind of familiar with the area. I believe RWY 13 at 'MWL' is 5996 ft. long and the Beech F33's T.O. is approx. 1225 ft. to clear a 50 ft. obstacle. I realize Your video is about power failures after takeoff during the climb, but that aside, speaking of the initial takeoff, as it pertains to 'Gear Retraction,' My Instructor, back in '64 after He had cut Me loose in His E35 Bonanza a few days after My 17th. Birthday and having received My Private Pilot Certificate, a few days later happened to notice Me 'Snatching the Gear out from under Her' within seconds on a 5,000 ft. RWY at 'SFQ' with My High School Girlfriend on board because I thought it was 'Cool!' Later He would stress on Me, in no uncertain terms, that I was gonna look pretty silly to My Girlfriend one day, when ole N3250C desides to 'Cough' with Me having the Gear 'Up & Locked' Sliding down that concrete runway on My Belly with the remainder of that 5,000 ft. of perfectly good concrete still out in front of Me! Anyway, Scott, it was just an observation. Thanks again for all the great training and information, Sir! Sincerely, David Nichols ATP F/W R/W CE550 CL601

You actually don’t practice the engine failure itself but the emergency action that follows...

Well done. Excellent tutorial. I am forwarding this to my local CFI friend. Would a Husky perform like the Carbon or Super Cubs you mentioned?🤔

"To be prepared against surprise is to be trained. To be prepared for surprise is to be educated." - James Carse

Another great and very informative video from @flywire, thx Scott!

I've been trying to figure out what it is about what you do and how you do your vids, that makes them so useful, relevant and educational...how you take concepts from the theoretical to the practical. My opinion is it's because you think like a test pilot (which makes sense since you are a test pilot). Flight testing is all about data...how theory correlates to real world interpretation...the scientific method. You see a problem, theorize a possible solution and perform safe, smart, relatable, repeatable, practical, experiments...not to prove or disprove a preconceived bias or notion...but to collect data which proves or disproves the hypothesis, or maybe neither. You explain what you're doing, how you do it and the results you got. Just the facts, ma'am...just the facts. Separating the turn back from the landing is a fantastic way to declutter the experiment and make practice by non flight test pilots, infinitely safer. I'm really trying to seem like I'm not kissing your butt (Sorry amigo...you're not that cute but you do have a very pretty spinner). Just saying you're doing excellent work on this stuff and I believe it's helping...a lot. Thanks.

I had a "Impossible turn" demonstrated at 500ft, where upon detecting engine failure he dumped the nose to yellow arc and then pulled a hard turn back. We made it back onto runway heading with alt to spare, in a -172, do you have an opinion on this technique? I know in unpowered aircraft with a line break on tow (surface or aerotow) this is something that we're used to, but not so much in powered aviation.

I'm not a pilot, but wouldn't the length of the runway be another consideration assuming your using the total length for takeoff. I may of missed it, but on a shorter runway would you not be further from the airport by the time you reach 1,000 feet. The shorter the runway the greater the distance traveled and I would assume you would need to increase your minimum altitude for a turn back. Just asking.

Concerning the parachutes available now for the aircraft do you know the Minimum altitude for these things? I would assume it is very weight and balance related.

I did a lot of Corporate flying a Navajo. Most IMC as I flew in the Great Lakes area. A lot of IMC in that country and icing. As pilots have done if they tell U the truth have done dumb stuff over their career. I did a zero zero T.O. in fog and clear about 400 AGL. NOT SAFE! Whats a pilot to do when a CEO is screaming I gotta get there.

Wise words, save yourself and the passengers, buy a new airplane.

I like most here have been flying for many years. If I thought it (engine out on take off) was going to happen to me I’d wear a aerobic shoulder harness and helmet - because I would no doubt crash - somewhere. “But it’ll never happen me.” It’s this attitude that gets people killed not just in GA aircraft but many things in life.

Instead doing a straight out departure before turning would a cross wind turn at say 500 feet and then power loss at say 1000 feet allow you to return to the airport. 90 degrees of the turn is already complete also, you might be closer to the airport. This would require a change in the way we do traffic patterns. Just spit balling.

Most engine failures are partial power, not total. cylinder fails mostly. You have 4 to 6 cylinders that can fail due air cooled cylinders fail 30 times more than liquid cooled. I learned in 1996 to do turnbacks from 400 agl similating a cylinder failure. Cherokee. Drop power to 1,700 rpm, drop nose and drop some flaps because it is like a slow flight turnback at around Vfinal speed and 45 banking. You wont stall with power at Vfinal with some flaps. My CFI had a blue line at the Vglide speed, under it, we needed flaps for safety. Better to practice EFATO turnbacks at partial power first. Lower the nose, lower flaps, troubleshoot, then call traffic, turnback after calling. Great exercise to practice all the basics of flying and Emergency Low Maneuvering combined. Hard maneuvering makes hard to knock down pilots like my cfi used to say. He called EFATO in 1996 as Emergency Low Maneuvering.

That's all good and safe but if you went IMC at 300' then what

Thanks for the video. Do you think integrating AOA if available is useful to determine speed and altitude gates for aircraft?

If you turn back or not should depend on the conditions, if you take off with a very strong head wind and have to turn down wind you will have less momentum in the turn because your ground speed is lower, this is a situation that could result in a stall spin event, but in saying that if you are looking at your airspeed your turn will be appropriate for the conditions.

The Vglide 45 Turnback. Use real Vglide speed, not like AOPA video on Bonanza were the guy used an over Vglide speed and the coward only banked 30-35 bank only and declared it is impossible to do that turn. The coward did it wrong. Thats why. A pilot that cant turn 45 degrees? LOL..

I am concerned there is something wrong with your balance ball system.... During all the manoeuvers you did, it stayed in the middle.... I am not sure it's supposed to do that?

Only standard rate turns? I fly a light sport. If I loose an engine on takeoff I’m putting in full flaps stalling it in the treetops (38mph) or slipping it into a clearing. This turning back business under 1000 feet agl seems dicey to me. AOPA got some heat on their series. Someone may f up and stall it in trying to practice.

With all due respect, the embedded commercials are REALLY distracting and probably not worth the few pennies they pay you. Otherwise, an interesting look at the turnback from a highly experienced pilot.