The worst loss EVER at Twickenham. What happened to England in the penultimate game of the 2023 Six Nations?! 0:00 Just Blame Borthwick 8:10 Forward Dominance 12:24 Best Player on the Planet
France was a machine on the field. They played to absolute perfection. Watching them, it almost seemed that everything on the field was choreographed for a Hollywood fireworks finish. Bravo to France. You crushed it in legendary fashion.
@@faranglao8006 If it could be of any consolation, France isn't better... corruption in a poorly elected governement, laws for the richest, inflation, massive des-industrialization for 40 years thanks to right wing leaders, People having bought into the hatred of mobilisation, of unions, of numbers are our strength, blind to the fact they could be stronger together.... Sports are the modern opium of the People...
If the only english gameplan was "France didn't win in twickenham since 2007" well, i'm worried for England future... In fact, this defeat should have happened 3 years ago when England had lucky wins vs a 3rd string France in Nations Cup 2020 and in 6N 2021. These 2 matchs prevented England from being lucid about their true level. They logically declined when Ireland and France worked.
Here's a couple of thoughts. I'm an England fan. Watching this French team on Saturday, was otherworldly. They had a score and they were all playing to the same conductor. Even the bloody ball was playing their tune. The England team are not bad players, and man for man, I doubt there is that much between them. They were utterly helpless in the face of the French tsunami. England were attempting to play rugby, the French were composing rugby. It was fantastic. Those fans that left early, shame on you. You should have stayed to applaud a once in a lifetime performance. Clive Woodward recently described Twickenham as the world's biggest pub, and it strikes me that anyone who didn't enjoy that game is just a piss-head with too much money. Finally, regarding Goode's disparaging mickey-take of Steve Borthwick: maybe he should keep in mind that Steve Borthwick is a multi-capped ex-England player and captain, and a long standing club and international coach. Thanks to Wikipedia, it seems that Marcus Smith already has more international caps than Goode, who evidently was an extremely successful club player, but unable to command a regular international place. I remember people used to say that 'those who can, do. Those who can't, teach'. I think that might be more applicable to disgruntled pundits. By all means criticise Steve Borthwick's selections and methods if you must, but if you have to descend to personal attacks, perhaps you need to consider another occupation. Sorry about all that, but needed to vent. No offence intended!
Am a French fan..Good analysis…England will go through turbulence for some time, and that’s understandable, but they ll bounce back…great teams always bounce back…France had a decade of misery, and they came back..England has a pretty easy group in the coming WC2023, and I guess they ll reach at least the quarters, if not the semis…That said, They need to reinvent the way they play…what Galthie did for France…bonne chance!
It was a similar game and outcome to England vs France U20 on Friday night. Got muscled off the ball and in the scrum, played with flair and made England make silly mistakes. Same thing seemed to happen on Saturday unfortunately. Sad times but kudos to the French
There was not one England player out of 22 that I would have swapped into that French team, which feels rare. There's usually a couple, even on a bad day.
Taking it a bit too far there we had a terrible day no doubt about it but we will be back sometimes you need a massive humbling to come back stronger and I think that is what will happen starting at the World Cup I wouldn’t be surprised to see us on the final
@Alex Hiscock NZ world cup coaches: who know how this works, have said that you know you're best 22 a year out from a World Cup. England are clueless at the moment!
French here, love your show. Mind you even before last saturday. Top blocks and cool talk. We were at the pub and the game felt like so easy. Miles away from the more grindy game in Paris. Must be hard to take indeed, France went on a great day and England collapsed mentally + situational replacement context. My favorite moment of the game was when NTamack, whom I'm happy to share the same name, bossed / fended out Farell before casually passing the ball to Ramos for The Fickou kick and chase by Penaud. I personnally believe Romain has permafrost cold bollocks.
What did Eddy say about English rugby. The problem is the public schools and the middle class privilege . Only 6% of the population go to public schools. I played rugby at my comprehensive school for 5 years and never got any proper coaching, i played at my local club and never got any proper coaching. In reality rugby is not a fully inclusive sport in England. I remember as a colt playing for the county being drop in favour of a public school boy who was nowhere near as good as me. I obviously wasn't in their middle class click. The 57 old farts that Will Carlin referred to, are retarding English elite rugby through their innate biases. There seems to be a lack honor and respect in this sport that is run by greedy middle class people. Money comes before national pride, just look at the England jersey for instance. Also there are to many Over seas players in top flight rugby in England. This is reducing the opportunities of home grown players to get experience at top level.
I like the lads and have enjoyed the pod for a while. That being said, what really frustrates me with this England talk is that 6 months or so ago, everyone or the majority of people generally speaking, were piling in on Eddie Jones and solely blaming him for our decline. I'm admittedly a little bit bitter, because I was in the minority camp of not wanting to replace Jones before the World Cup. To this day, I still believe he had a few tricks up his sleeve and England would have done well at the WC. We will never know, although one thing I do know is that England were never taken to pieces in the way we were vs France. Prior to his departure, the narrative was very much along the lines of "We have the best league in the world, a bunch of world class players and we are underachieving." Sadly, this is certainly not the case. As it stands, we have essentially wasted 3 years by consigning EJ's efforts to the bin. Borthwick has come in with this downbeat attitude which I don't think is really helping to install the right mentality into the players. As you say, the emotional energy for the France game was not right and we got pulverised up front. The recent Smith vs Farrell debate is and was utterly irrelevant when your forwards are taken to the cleaners like they were on the weekend. Smith is not to blame, but he also had a poor game with several errors. Going forward, I think that Borthwick actually needs to shut off from all the media talk and stick to his principles. He says he does, but I'm not seeing it. As you say Goody, It was the most un Steve Borthwick team I've ever seen. A total 180. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I suspect the game-plan for the France game was heavily influenced by the media and this just can't happen. Fair play and praise to France though. They were a joy to watch and played an incredible game. A masterclass in: Power. Speed. Accuracy. What a team and performance.
I completely agree, the criticism of EJ was ridiculous to be honest. He is a top class coach and I'm sure he will do well for Australia. His squad of players is Borthwicks squad of players and we see a consistent issue, we are not dominant anywhere on the pitch. Our 2019 WC squad, many of whom were playing this weekend have got worse not better. And worryingly there isn't depth of talent to replace them. England are going to struggle for the foreseeable future unless they can find some form, a style that makes the most of their abilities and some pride. I'm extremely disappointed but now fully aware of how delusional the media and fans are about England. We are in a massive hole and realising that is the 1st step to fixing it, I think the whole of English rugby has just had a massive wake up call.
Agree with almost everything you say Jack - you are absolutely right that the result clearly illustrates that Eddie was not the problem... but where I disagree is that I can't see Steve Borthwick being influenced by the media... I don't have any inside track, but he doesn't come across to me as a very media-influenced person (seems confident in his selections and process even if it's not popular [eg moving Farrell to bench to me seems quite balls-y] - and doesn't seem to care much about media perception/engagement).
@@shonunezekiel I hope you’re right Tom. Moving Farrell to the bench was a ballsy move. I actually thought him releasing Smith for the Quinns game Vs Chiefs was a shrewd move too. Smith tore us to shreds (Chiefs fan). Whilst I can understand the logic in then going with Smith, it was a far cry from how we have played under SB so far. That combined with the constant barrage for hate for Farrell may have swayed his decision making in that instance, if only a fraction. To reiterate, I hope that is not the case. From my point of view, it seemed a bit of an out of character move from SB. On the one hand, says we are awful and the worst tier 1 nation across all the KPI’s (not wrong), on the other, thought we could go toe to toe with France up front and give Smith the type of game where he excels. Actions not matching the words at the moment. All that being said, have immense faith and belief in Borthwick, although I’m not quite sure he knew what he was getting himself into.
@@jackbennett5391 let's see how he goes - he is in quite a difficult situation at the moment based on when he took over - but maybe the expectations are therefore lower... I can see the logic in trying to run the big French pack around the park with Smith's wider game, but yes, that assumed our forwards would produce a reasonable amount of quality fast ball - they didn't need to dominate, just not capitulate! 🙈
Dan Carter at 10 in his prime would have looked crap behind that England forward display. They lacked physicality and intensity and looked timid and asleep compared to the French forwards
Listening to Jim talking up how great Maro is hahaha. The media in England is an empire of lies Look at this - Saffers and Proudfoot being straight - English Pack are no good. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-S785BTTcYLo.html
Yep not only the media the comments from club fans england must have dozens of so called world class players, but they seriously are not anywhere near world class.
First, England tried to play a faster game on a wet ball day, then dropped and made poor passes. Tactics needed to be adjusted. France played very well in conditions, and overall are not bigger, just executed very well. Which team in world rugby last beat the AB’s away, in Auckland , the hardest place to win away. It was France! (Australian).
Hello, like many people here I have played rugby and we all have those match days where everything is perfect, everything works, the planets are in alignment, even mistakes are made up for and are nothing. Saturday was a day like that for the French team and exactly the opposite for the English team. These are things that happen. Not enough to trigger national mourning, the king reigns, the crown jewels are in their place.
If Marcus Smith had been the French flyhalf and England had Romain Ntamack, we still would have lost heavily and Marcus Smith would have looked like one of world's best players
@@mcmustangno1567 Perhaps not, but he would have looked like a great player behind the French pack receiving quick ball from DuPont and with Danty and Fickou outside him
Not English but felt England were the team to beat going into the last world cup, were the team of the tournament but are way off now. England might stumble into another final while Ireland, NZ and the Boks are on the flight home but it'll be just papering over cracks.
It's very hard to know how to describe what we can do following that sort of hammering. The incomparable Bill McLaren would have said we were beaten out of sight - apt. Huge congratulations to France - what a truly off-the-scale incredibly superb performance. Some of our previously 'good' players are now poor - Itoje is just one example. He is a shadow of the player he was - and should be dropped immediately - he needs time out to re-find himself. I suggest that the team write off the game with Ireland - be bold with selection - pick the hungriest players available, never mind if they're unknown. Play the game with abandon, no game plan, just play it as you see it and disregard the score - see which players stand up and which ones stand back
Of the nations that Ireland and France have played so far in this competition Ireland have outscored France in each of those games. Ireland beat France by 13 points. Ireland beat Italy by 14 points against France's 5. Ireland beat Scotland by 15 points against France's 13. If this trend continues I don't fancy England's chances in Dublin. I notice too that the English media are saying that England has nothing to lose and all the pressure will be on Ireland. I think that's nonsense. England will be under great pressure not to repeat what happened to them against France and Ireland only need to win by 1 point to secure the Grand Slam.
I'm Welsh and I have a lot of sympathy for the English coaching setup and fans at the moment. Results like this really really really hurts and obviously been feeling it myself recently. On another note, I don't understand the RFU's decision making. I feel like they've thrown a hospital pass to Borthwick by dropping him in unexpectedly. Yeah he's a great coach but is he actually ready for one of the biggest jobs in the game? Maybe would have been better off as a second for a cycle till he was ready to take over?
England are miles away from the top teams, as evidenced as not even being in touch with the chasing pack eg. Scotland. Goody’s prediction was delusional. I fear a similar score is coming this weekend for us.
I’m an Irish fan and I’m not so sure, injuries to some key players for us and with the beating you guys took against France I feel like there’s some redemption coming for you guys, maybe not stopping our slam but definitely putting it up to us, you’re behind the main teams in world rugby yes, but you still have some scary names in there that could give Ireland a big fright on paddy’s day weekend
You should possibly pray for a similar score. It could potentially be even worse. Ireland put France away and you are travelling to Dublin after getting spit-roasted by the French.
That French performance was sublime. England were awful but in that kind of form, nobody could have lived with France. They would have beaten the ABs, SA, Ireland, anyone if they played like that. However... if they were playing Ireland, the ABs or SA, these teams would not have allowed the French to play like that and France wouldn't have felt as confident as they did against a mediocre English team. England are not as bad as they looked in this game. The game in Dublin next weekend could be a crucial game for England. If they are hammered like most people think then it will be very hard to pick themselves up for the WC. But.... with Ireland having so many injuries and a grand slam on the line, maybe, just maybe they can upset Ireland. Even if they come close, I think that it will set them up nicely for the WC. They have such an easy run to the Semi's, they don't have to be world beaters. Its bonkers that Ireland, SA and Scotland are in the same group. France are simmering away nicely, with a home WC coming up they have to be favourites to get to the final. The ABs and SA have the pedigree so I expect one of them to be in the final. Ireland could once again go out in the Qtrs, or even not get out of the group. Great video guys.
Goodie and Jim were talking about Genge being the best LH in the world...? I cannot understand why they'd think that - he is a quality player - absolutely, but he's not the best LH in England, never mind the world. If you want an English LH to scrummage for your life - your pick Marler. If you want your LH to run in open play giving and receiving passes, those are Genge's strengths - dominant scrummaging, breakdown craft and ball carrying aren't.
What are you on about? He didn't run over anyone. He ran past lawrence, who had a grab at his shirt and missed, he then ran between ludlam and slade. Ludlam managed to get him around the ankles but it wasn't enough to stop him crossing the line. He didn't run over slade He simply took him over the line with him. And Willis was only involved after the ball had been grounded. You really should not accuse people of being wrong when you obviously haven't got a clue as to what did actually happen. Maybe in your dreams flament bulldozed his way over the top of 4 defenders but the reality is He didn't . I beg you , go watch the try and come back and tell me why I'm wrong.
And while you're at it, go and watch the TASanalytic channel (south african) and see why four french tries should not have stood because of infringements in the build up. Including a knock on by dupont in the ruck prior to the flaments try.
@@simonjeffs75 Yeah right And while you're at it check Steward's try and what Farrell does to François Cros to prevent him from tackling Steward earlier (he gets there too late because Faz pins him down away from the ball and out of sight)
There was maybe overtraining prior to the game…i watched a video on RU-vid where the England forwards are literally crawling up a flight of stairs after a massive leg day or huge scrummaging session. I have memories of going to the gym to train legs on a Thursday before a weekend match and during the game having my thighs seize up and all the zest was gone. I saw this in the Englsnd team on Saturday. There was too much difference in everything during the game. OR… it was the perfect storm. France just played a belter and when that happens you better go to the atomic shelters
One needs to keep in mind 9 and 10 for France have played there 9 and 10 together for the last 4 years Steve Bortheick has change he's ten every game besides Marcus Smith as much as I see him play IAM not convinced that he is a ten on the international stage
As a Scotsman, I’m sad we got beat by Ireland but I’m now recovered and invigorated by thinking back about England getting gubbed completely by France. It’s better than a joint
Look its not the coaches fault the reality is the standard of players England have are simply not at international level. The English prem is down right brutal in standard . They can't complete at European level against the French, south african and irish sides . You need too sort your club game first .
It's not about EJ or Borthwick it's our Premiership and age group development, we dont have a world class 23. That has been cruelly exposed in the last 2 years. Doesnt matter who plays 10, it's about 1 to 8 and they are not world class. Some of them had potential in 2019 but it's never matured. We are poor and will be for some time. Hate to say it but I can't see a way out at this point.
Oh come on how can you not see a way out? Maybe they needed this loss… Just look at the thrashings England took before the 2003 World Cup… Or in 2015. Then look what happened in 2019. Sure it’ll take time, but it’s not the end of the damn world.
@@joeboonmusic4004 in your example that took 4 years but I wasn't saying it will NEVER happen but I wouldn't expect a big change next week or in the world cup. The RFU has to look at how the international team is supplied by the age groups and the Premiership and compare and contrast with France and Ireland. It's not just us Wales are in a similar if not worse position. But it will take significant change to make England perform at its required level. Does the RFU have the insight to fix it? That's my concern is that they will ditch Borthwick after the world cup without making systemic changes to the feeder system.
@@mattp7828 I really hope they don't ditch Borthwick after the WC. That would be a repeat of the sacking of Farrell and Lancaster and look at them now! I totally agree that we're probably not going to see drastic changes until after the WC... But this is why I think the French thrashing may be a blessing in disguise. Hopefully it'll cause some heads to roll in the RFU and they'll actually start getting their act together, including allowing English players to play for their country whilst also playing for an overseas club.
@@mattp7828 I'm sure we will! Just remember how dejected everyone was after we got knocked out in the group stages of our own World Cup... This isn't as low as that! And we bounced back and got to the final in 2019.
Fair play France but what I will say, is that it is a national disgrace and a huge failure on the RFU that the best defence coach in the world (Shaun Edwards) a proud Englishmen, has been at Wales and now France who he has had immense successes with. What on earth is going on to let one of our own go to rivals like that. You can’t be the best if you don’t have the best in class in their departments.
Edwards is an assistant coach - you REALLY think Edwards would have lasted long as Eddie Jones's dogsbody assistant? Theres only one window there... post-2019. And Eddie didnt want him whereas France did. So what can the RFU do? Edwards will never head a coaching ticket. He was supposed to in 2020 but thats why he backed out of his Wigan appt, tore up the contract and went to France - because he didnt want the responsibility. So how are the RFU meant to poach him when Eddie Jones was the head coach .. or now when Borthwick is head coach?
The Frenchs did to England what the england did to them twenty years ago - despite their courage and beautiful style. They rolled over them. That's all. Galthié does suffer from no memory loss syndrom. And he was there too in 1999 for the wrc 1/2final against NZ, he was the master of the game and the master of their victory. He knows about twickenham.
English ruck speed unbelievably slow 25% of English ruck ball speed was 6 plus seconds. Take Ireland on Sunday 5% at 6 plus seconds That’s some difference Can’t win games with stats like that
Everyone has such short memories. 4 years ago Wales won the 6N and England made the final of a WC. No one stays on top. Enjoy your time there, but don't pretend like you've always been there. No one stays on the bottom. Be frustrated, but don't pretend like you've always been there.
Absolutely spot on 4 years ago we smashed Ireland in a warm up looked like the best team in the world beat New Zealand in the semis and then got humbled in the final England will have there time again
And in those 4 years , You now have 2 less English premiership teams , how financially sound the rest are time will tell .. English clubs no longer a force in Europe and the saracens team was there because it broke the wage structure ?? Wales is in another mess , talks of one less region ? Another financial crisis in the future .. if these things are not addressed, the good days be gone for a long while ..
@Mark C who knows. It's easy when you're on top though. Just keep doing the same thing. An international team is normally a reflection of the domestic game beneath it, and you're right to highlight that. I'm sure something will change within the next few years for the English game as it isn't sustainable. Maybe the poor results from this current side will bring about that change sooner rather than later. Like I say, enjoy your time on top. It'll soon be gone! PS. Saracens broke the premiership salary cap, not a European one. Apart from Leinster every other team they beat in a final was French, so would be surprised if they had a larger wage bill than them. PPS I'm not a saracens fan!
@@rob.1 yet to meet a saracens fan tbh 😂😂 do they exist? English clubs in Europe where dominant.. miss that because less tough games now . Made the group stages much better for fans also .. we are not on top .. I will only say that we are or have been if we ever can win a World Cup .. getting past the QF has gone beyond a joke at this point . I’m running out of time lad to see it . Enjoy the game Saturday
As an Englishman fair play to the French. However, when you are in the gutter looking at the stars, the only way is up! I think it is Ireland's world cup to lose, fair play to them, they've been building for the last four plus years and the results are there for all to see.
I'm VERY excited for Ireland to face SA. Couldn't get 2 more conflicting styles but if there's a defence in the world which can compete against Ireland's attack it's SA
@@Gilescowdemdem Against a full strength Bok team, France would not have had it so easy, by a long shot! But I reckon France would have beaten SA and Ireland on Saturday!
oh nice quote from the great Oscar Wilde ! I leave in Paris close to where he's burried (Pere Lachaise cemetary) though actually could well be that it's just a memorium and he's not really "there".
@Old ManWillyBoy for once we agree 100%. That French performance was out of the top draw .That said England were poor, as poor as I have seen them, ever.
@@oldmanwillyboy2786 agree, nowhere near as easy but SA defence and physicality is about the only other nation who can compete at the level with France and Ireland at the moment. I'm not sure where NZ are at the moment but excited to see!
Because they are. The Saffa press was saying this before.. Genge Sinkler and Itoje in particular are small and weak compared to their pack. But the media insist that they are "world class". The media, especally people like RugbyPass, GBR and their mates RocNation, made those three 'undroppable' and now.. England have a rubbish pack and noone even knows how it even happened.
The English club game and grass route setup is the route cause, where to national team performance is a symptom. A head coach can impact team performance and setup, but there seems to be a Huge issue not being addressed. If you look at FR and Irl, there club teams are dominate in Europe.
agreed , they lost to Ireland and looked average at best against Italy , that team that walked out for Le Crunch had a fire in their belly and would most likely beat ANYONE on that form , but that`s the French for you , you watch them look shite against Wales next weekend
this wasnt a surprise really... the loss to Scotland followed by the "false hope" of the win over Italy.... we are nowhere near good enough atm.. and Ireland next weekend,,hurrah
When Borthwick was appointed manager I thought: 'What are they thinking?' He was dull as England captain, pretty much delusional in his aftermatch interviews, insisting on positives when there were none and playing in the least creative position on a rugby pitch. What did they really expect from him as England head coach? What had they seen to give him the job? And here we are, after a total thrashing by France, hearing the same old platitudes, how players are 'world class'. Farrell once again comes on at 12??? How many times do you need to see this to know it doesn't work? I looked away from that game for a couple of minutes and when I looked back Dan Coles and Mako were on the field. It's just an absolute abuse of resources, player and finances and a total show of incompetence from the RFU.
I can’t blame Eddie or Steve, I don’t think either has performed that well but this is an RFU/ Prem Rugby problem. The system is not fit for purpose. If we need more money in the English game then you better start winning stuff. Look at the fan numbers after 2003, Euros, Lionesses etc.
England have hardly any player I would call world class. France and Ireland have around 13-14 in their starting XV. The second and third french scrumhalf would be a nailed on starter for England. That's a development issue no head coach can fix.
@@GRB-tj6uj definitely. Last Saturday no English players rated better than a 5/10. No French player was less than a 7/10. We were behind in every area of the game
There are some people that , try as they might international duties is just another level above Another thing as a new team and new members tackling should have been a priority to establish some commadery within team And another thing being English they are in utter shock how dare you beat
Even after the evidence of this game most English can't accept & admit that England simply are very average, not in same league as France & Ireland. they beat a very poor Wales & an average Italy. Think they are going to beat #in world, France, laughable. England skill level 2nd division, commitment poor. Arrogance 1st class.
Players need calling out. The pack were terrible. Dombrandt isn't an international No.8, the front row are poor and Maro Itoje is missing in action. It's terrible to see. This England team hasn't fired properly since the world cup semi final against NZ in 2019. That said the blame lies squarely with the RFU. It's high time it was reformed.
The RFU are running scared of the private finance who own the rugby media. The Saffa press was saying this before.. Genge Sinkler and Itoje in particular are small and weak compared to the SA pack. But the finance owned media insist that they are "world class". The media, especally people like Big Jim, RugbyPass, GBR and their mates RocNation, made those three 'undroppable' and now.. England have a rubbish pack and no-one even knows how it happened. And that media are in your ear saying "reform the RFU!" ha ha ha.. they've won already, and because theyve won.. England are now sh**.
@@powerbite92 I agree that the influx of private equity cash into the sport probably won't end well for anyone and that individual players are being built up by the media - to a level they can't back on the pitch. The RFU is still the wealthiest union in the world though and results across the board are dire at the moment - just look at how the Under 20 England team has performed recently.
100%. People are too hesitant to call out players because they don’t wanna hurt anyones feelings when in reality they’re getting paid 200 grand a year to play like shit it’s not on
Goode believes that all English players (minus ones he has a personal vendetta against) are world class and it's only a matter of England picking the coach HE thinks they should pick, and the team HE thinks they should pick with the tactics HE thinks they should play. And then depending on the result changes his tune.
@@mattwells3818 Look at Hask - the GBR are run by pretty much the same crew that run the Rugby Pod, Rugby Pass and Dodge Woodall, etc now... these daft law changes? Hask is VP of an NGO that answers to no-one.but which has access to everyone; used to be called "progressive rugby" now its been re-named "restart rugby" and its all about 'change'! 'systemic change!' 'problematic!' 're-thinking!' So their puppet Hask is up all night trying to type the minutes of the meeting, right? No hes just a front saying now that "Swing Low" should be banned from stadiums and thru their reach we have these daft hip tackling rule changes and now Big Jim is campaigning to get rid of the scrum...
don`t agree with everything , but pretty much YES!! , i`d definitely have Arundell in there as he hasn`t really been given enough of a chance and his pace is lightning . As an Exeter fan i`d also have Josh Hodge in there as an apprentice to Steward , he`s going to be there in a couple of years anyway
@waynus I'd happily have Arundell in and am sure Hodge will continue to develop and get in contention. The back 3 is an area of relative strength. Centre is a real problem.
It's the prem fans/pundits fantasy xv, but whether all those players have the ability to thrive at international is another matter and if they would tell. Cohesion and combinations is a big factor in selection
@Iluvmusicqwe it's a fair point but I don't think the team has the dynamism required and if you're getting spanked by 50 points at home, where else do you go, and what justification do you have for not giving the players a chance? This France result feels like rock bottom but we've been in the hole for a few years since the NZ result. I don't believe all of the England coaches we've had have been bad but it's now time to look at some of the players, their form and reputations. It's also very worrying how poor the u20s are. England are the biggest underachievers in world rugby of the last 2 decades.
If England go back to basics for the World Cup I guarantee they make the semi-finals because of how kind the draw is. Sort these 6 areas: 1- Solid set pieces. Missed Lawes/Hill who are huge at both line out & scrum. They also take pressure of Itoje. 2- Better discipline. England concede far too many penalties and at international level if you win the penalty count you normally win the game. Players like Itoje, Sinkler and Genge all play on the edge- but they need to harness it slightly. 3. Breakdown. Against Ireland England showed for 60 minutes exactly how to compete at the breakdown- loud, clear communication saying when to leave and when to commit. We aren’t blessed with the flair of other nations so we must be smarter. 4- Strong 10/12/13. Smith proved he’s not good enough defensively for international rugby and Farrell give us better shape and management. Tuilagi changes the game for us and if we pick Marchant outside him who is quick, strong and excellent defensively we could put muscle these smaller midfields. 5- Back 3. With a strong midfield we need a quick back who aren’t afraid to come look for the ball now and again. Watson & Steward are nailed on at 11 & 15 and I would like to see Daly at 14 as he kicks well for territory, offers a goal threat from distance and because of playing at centre comes looking for the ball and has a connection with Faz. 6- Take the points. Remember when Owen Farrell was the best goal quicker in the world? Before the media got on Jones back for boring rugby? Yes we were winning championships. Let us keep adding pressure to the board whenever we get a chance.
I find this result hilarious! A lot of English punters were beating on their chests last week, actually thinking that England would win this. Have they even watched how England played lately? Ireland is next and I'm afraid there's just more pain ahead. Firing EJ was a massive mistake.
Anyone who points to the individual failings of players like Marcus Smith is totally missing the bigger picture, namely the lack of any discernible system for either defense or attack, and the the lack of hunger and workrate of the forwards who didn't seem to have any sense of urgency...
A little bit unfair on Eddie Jones to blame him for for the horror show against France. It’s a bit like absolving the new chancellor for refusing to stimulate the economy because the previous one didn’t spend a lot either.
From an exterior view point, the problem actualy on England is the system and probably hiden conflict inside your fédération. That defeat is a humiliation right but honnestly it will probably serve you in a long term way, nothing better than an slap or two or a water of bucket to woke up after all. Look from were France were coming just a decade ago? Make that defeat the begining of something, it will hurt for sure specialy in the begining but it will pay of in time. Focus on 2022 and already for 2027 and the next WC , collect data, analyses them, go inside your country and test players unkwown ! Drive the will and motivation of your's country men. Now go beat Ireland, and take note of the match.
Totally different though. The French team in 2015 had zero morale, the Top 14 was full of foreigners, World Rugby had a big argument in private with France because so few French players even had French passports, outside of the squad there were something like 4 French qualified second rows in the entire Top 14 and the best of those were not very good and South African, Saint Andre had them playing terrible rugby. The whole thing was a disaster. Immediately Guy Noves was hired France started playing so much better, then immediately they put JIF in place so the players were there in future and when Lombard took over, he and Galthie worked on very simple French qualities like commit and pass. 2019 WC in Japan, France were actually very good. They turned it round very fast just with a few changes. But the English league and English team is already full of English players - the real problem is the people who own the media, the media dictates who is a good player or not.. and who should be picked. They have all the power. Have ever heard of a country taking down the people who own the media? Wont happen. There is no way out for England right now.
I think that England were scared, they went into the game thinking they would not win against France and how well they are set up. So they were already beaten and France took advantage of it. England were well beaten and the arrogance that the RFU still seems to have shows with the "shell-shock" of just being outclassed on the day.
Does Andy Goode never have anything constructive to say? He complained about Eddie Jones, then Eddie Jones gets sacked, so he complains about Borthwick. No wonder the team play like they did on Saturday, when the media have the likes of him looking to exact revenge for their mediocre careers, on the current set of players and staff.
I've said this a hundred times the reality is England are far and away from the top tiers nations a good aggressive mobile fit forwards is needed changes in the backs also its a dark place for English rugby 🏉
You can have the best 10 in the world but it still doesn't matter if you don't have a pack. If we're being brutally honest the Eng pack is not a world beating unit. SA proved that in November. Ireland showed it a few weeks ago. If I'm honest I think England Rugby is lacking in world quality players at the moment.
This is the stark reality. The likes of Ludlum, Dombrandt, JVP are good players who can play internationals and have good games against Wales, Australia, Japan and others who are in the lower class of the Tier 1 nations. Sadly, when the level goes up a notch vs the world class sides; Ireland, France, NZ and South Africa, they are found wanting. I’m hoping to be proved wrong, but this seems to be the case based on their first 10-12 caps.
Looking at the recent U20 World Cup, all of those French players play senior club rugby, some have even played in the Champions Cup. Youngsters in England don’t seem to get the same opportunities. Likewise in Ireland the international players don’t play every club match, they’re rested every other week, the academy players play regular senior club rugby. I don’t know what the solution is for England but something has to change at the youth level.
That loss wasn’t Borthwicks fault, it’s been coming for a long time. The South Africans did us a favour in the Autumn. The props need to be props , not pseudo centres. The wings need to be dynamite and actually get the ball in space. Mitchell HAS to start.
People are so quick to point out both Smith and Farrell's faults/mistakes but never mention a lot of other players. It's like people think the only player on a rugby pitch that matters is the fly half. Why aren't people as quick to point out Itoje's penalty count and lack of dominant carries? Or the lack of physicality from the front row that "picks itself" apparently, or the fact that Ludlum and Willis were made to look like a couple of under 18's up against the French back row and Dombrandt struggling massively with test match intensity. Goode is right, the forwards got absolutely destroyed on the weekend and everyone is on about who played at 10?! We could've had Dan Carter in his prime at 10 and it wouldn't have changed the outcome
What went wrong, simple they got the wrong person for head coach. Too inexperienced as a coach. Should have picked someone like Steve Diamond or Rob Baxter.
