As a South African, I think this was a good thing to happen to England, albeit painful. In professional rugby, when things go wrong they go very wrong. Get yourselves sorted and organized, and you will be a force at the WC. Despite everything, if one goes into a test match against England underestimating them you do so at your peril. We look forward to a marked improvement in your side.
France were great and England (my boys) were not. A fair result. Your boys are still my favourites for the Word Cup. Experience, ability, power and big game winners.
France, Ireland, South Africa and New Zealand are the only favourites to win the 2023 RWC! Talk about England being competitive with only five games left after yesterday's drubbing is not sustainable. Thank you for your words!😆😆
If it was 12-18 months out from the World Cup, I'd share your optimism (at least in part). That said, Wilkinson mentioned that England got hammered in Bloemfontein in 2007, and 3 months later were playing a World Cup final. So who knows.
I think we have bigger problems. More clubs to go under, the clubs have no interest in feeding the England team. I read that 60% of players in the premiership are not available for England. I am not just talking about the oversea players but the homegrown players who have gone to Scotland or Wales. Many English accents in both teams. Dont get me wrong many have Scottish or Welsh relatives so it is correct that this happens but it does not help England. We have to sort out our club issues.
Van Poortvliet was painfully slow with his distribution. Dombrandt seemed out of his depth. These 2 specially stood out for me against France as not being international level players.
JVP is a frustrating one. I realise he's playing to the coaches' instructions, but instead of playing the way that helped him displace Youngs from both the Tigers and England teams, he's now playing like Youngs did in his worst performances for England 🤷🏻♂️
In Smiths' defence, his stats from this game speak for themselves....2nd most carries, 2nd most metres made, 10x tackles made than anyone else, 0x tackles missed, guess getting run over by Olivant doesn't count for some reason.
Yeah but I think the problem is people keep commenting on Smith assuming a 10's job is to carry when it's not (albeit it is a nice to have). France almost seemed to deliberately shut off his passing options and then leave enough of a gap for him to do a short carry, beating the first man but then either being isolated or leaving no one to co-ordinate the attack. Thats why suddenly, albeit briefly, with Farrell there too and a quicker 9 the pace picked up. So I think the stats are a bit misleading.
@@jamies1332 I agree, but he's also known for his attacking line breaks, that's his style so his carry stats won't be that different from what he'd do in a good game. The point they do make is how terrible his support was and the fact a 10 is making 10x the number of tackles as anyone else on the field is absolutely insane.
I've been watching the Five/Six Nations since about 1972 (black and white TV then) and I've seen just about every nation fall down the rankings from a position of superiority when older players retire or get injured. It seems to be an almost inevitable cycle. England are a team in transition, and I suspect it could take quite a while before they start to climb the rankings again. Both Wales and Scotland had long periods of difficulty, and you don't have to look back very far to a time when France were in all sorts of trouble. Same with Ireland, who were given a bad time just before the last world cup. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm kind of resigned to England not being very good for a couple of years, perhaps longer. A lot will depend on the players who come through in the next couple of seasons, I believe. But that is just a guess from someone who is no sort of expert, just an interested viewer.
Team sport - I think its the camp, hard to play with guys you play against every week, to make a national side. Time together and time to know each other, trust and know - I think Ireland have done a good job of making national an aspiration and with small population, know each other. NZ always had a small population that knew each other in the nationals side. France have rebuilt their schools to club feeder system to make the national side the most presdigious side to be on. Not sure if Welsh or English schools to national side is where players are focsed , the players will make monsy where they can while they can. But winning on ones national side gives fame and more monsy in a possible club also. The complexity is off the chart!
I though allowing Ireland to field provinces against clubs was fair, then I thought its unfair, but it seems its still fair considering catachment areas and populations. But there is a smaller community advantage in a team, they know and play togethger, hard to ballance all. And ebbs and flows, in old and new gens. But , hey, what a game we have in rigby!
I played against Alex Dombrandt at university and he was a beast. I’ve always backed him when watching England with mates, but I think you’re right and EJ was right about test animals. He can look class against some has beens in the Prem but he’s not a test animal. My other pick out might be less popular but Ollie Lawrence, I think people were getting carried away with this guy because he ran through Tomato Allen (which anybody can). He’s not a genuine 12 and he’s not big, yes he’s quite compact but he’s literally almost as short as Smith. He’s not a line breaker against proper defences. Dante and Fickou made Laurence and Slade look like they were turning out for a schoolboys team. We need a genuine 12, Laurence isn’t the answer. I’m a big slade fan but I think the playmaker at 13 is no longer a reliable test option, maybe slade or Malins as versatile 23 on the bench, I’d like to see Marchant at 13 and Arundell on the wing. WC is too soon so why not try and blood players who are coming through. Mitchell deserves a start at 9
glad someone else has said something about lawrence, he looks big becuase he is short and when you watch him hit the gain line it inst comparable to when dante makes a big carry, let alone manu at his best. He is our best option for that crash ball but it still isnt good enough
Can’t argue with your midfield assessment. Slade was so poor, specially for a man with more than 50 caps, and Lawrence showed us nothing yesterday. I also felt Watson is just prone to too many errors. He does something brilliant then gives away the ball. He’s hardly a Chessum Kolbe is he? The same goes for Dombrandt. He really has to work on his power, aggression and handling skills. The two flankers were lightweight against France too. They’ve had a decent run and can be put out to pasture now as not international class.
My biggest disappointment has been Dombrandt I have been a loud supporter and defended him through this 6 nations. I'm a Quins fan so naturally a huge fan of his, but he looked like he was back to being a uni student against France. Bullied, exhausted, physically he isn't ready for that level. Gutted tbh.
Yes, but now he knows. He is a very skillful player with a good rugby brain. He can work on physical conditioning and if he gets a run next week I think his mindset will be very different. He is worth persevering with.
Love Dommers for quins but compare him to Doris or Aldrit and I’m not convinced his technical skills are enough of a point of difference against the best. Think Mercer walks into that 8 jersey by the end of this year
@@grahamriley8124 His body composition is weird. He looks like he's caught between bulking up and being a blockbusting 8 or slimming down to be more mobile and elusive. Right now, he's neither at this level.His cardio fitness is also way off.
I’m in agreement with Jonny Wilkinson. A few relatively minor improvements and better familiarity amongst the team has snowballing effects that make huge differences on match day.
Honestly think one of the biggest differences between England and other teams is our conditioning and athleticism. Our forwards pack are massively unfit and even “small” compared to other teams. Same in the back line where you’ve got JVP, Smith, Slade, Mitchell, who are all physically way off. The French players were just better athletes and seemed more professional.
@@michaeltrumper Weight alone means nothing. France are on a different planet when it come to explosive power, stamina, decision making, athleticism. Ask yourself this; could you see Chessum scoring two opportunistic, dynamic tries like Flament ? Im not picking on Chessum, he's been one of the few England players who has stood to be counted and taken the fight to the opposition in this 6n. I'm simply highlighting that there is far more to Int'l rugby fitness than weighing 118Kg.
As a Scotland fan I think this has been coming for a while now, Changes should've been made months ago. Bit of a rebuild needed but not as bad as people think.
TBH i think the thing that struck me was that we were too slow. We came to every breakdown second to France. even VP gesturing to the backs that he wanted them to his left not right when we were perilously close to our try line. Some of this may be that they haven't played with each other but mostly just too tentative 😞
I honestly think our pack is too undersized and unfit. Compare the most abrasive forwards (Etzebeth, Savea, Willemse etc) against our dad bods. Size and condition does still matter. We were bullied
Yep. Dombrandt, Willis and Ludlum all look a bit fat in comparison to their opposite numbers. Hard to consider them elite athletes when they are carrying timber around. Need a big old fashioned lock at 5.
I don't know, I quite like your tight 5. They're good players, and all outside of Chessum have shown they're more than capable of competing with the best. The loose forwards though, yeah, they got badly bullied. However, I think putting that down to size and conditioning exclusively may be a little short sighted, it's not as if they're notably smaller than the Irish, Scottish or Italian loose forwards. I understand coming down harshly on the English team after yesterdays performance, but I think the French deserve a lot of credit. Really can't see any test team being able to live with them if they play like that!
I think the Premiership needs a long hard look at itself. It’s easy to look World class against poor defences, but as Smith, Simmonds and Dombrant have proved, when you mix at the top level, you can’t do the things you can in the Premiership. Our players just don’t look good enough at this level (with one or two exceptions).
Did you even watch the game?. Smith didn’t put a foot wrong. The fact that we got torn apart at the breakdown and we couldn’t get any front foot ball was nothing to do with Smith.
Smith might have been one of the few good players in the backline, given the poor quality of ball. He overhit one penalty, but other than that, this was largely lost at breakdown, outside channel diefences, and forwards unable to execute close in.
Look at the stats and how the rugby player base has dropped over the last few years… its just a sign of what’s to come with English rugby (down the shitter)
Agree with just about everything you said. The theme for me is a lack of power and dynamism. It was especially lacking at 8. I’ve said it before, Dombrandt goes missing in big games. He is the epitome of a good premiership player who lacks the dynamism and mental toughness to compete at the highest level. I am desperate to see Earl given a shot at 8. He has the dynamic, athletic profile we should be looking to give opportunities to.
One of the things that stood out for me, both in the forwards and the centres particularly, was that when taking the ball into contact, the French continued the leg drive, rather than just flopping to the deck, presumably thanks to Mr. Edwards. This gave real momentum to the supporting players and resulted in a lot more retained possession, and the odd penalty too when England butchered it. The passing was cleaner, crisper, and the kicks were rarely the aimless ones that seem to have become a feature of England's game. I would tend to agree with the 'yes' list, but I would like to see more options against the positions of those in the 'maybes'. Under no circumstances should we use Cole and Vunipola again, they are both well past their best.
Freddie did look up for it and I’m not sure there’s any other full backs in the world that can take a crash ball over the try line like he does. BUT… his lack of pace really showed yesterday. Done on the outside with ease. Maybe he can afford to lose 3-5kg to help with his speed.
Totally agree. He seems exempt from criticism but he was painfully slow and flat footed on the drift or chase in defence. Their first try he was no where
Agree Steward is almost deceptively not good enough but he is in the ? to be fairer. There is a ranking you miss which is good but not great (world class = great right?). Even the best teams will have a few good not great players and Steward is one of those.
Yeah I think ironically just biggest stength is also his biggest weakness his size and heft , there was a play last year against keenan where Stewart may aswell not have been there , really made me change my mind about Stewart , he's a good player but needs to work on the engine
The premiership is one of the main issues with the England national team. Whilst the games are generally entertaining, the standard is not what it was in my opinion. The clubs are not geared towards aiding the national team at all with the way the game is set up in England. Also, we as fans are guilty of building players up as world class after watching a 5 minute RU-vid highlights video. Yesterday’s game showed where we really are. A very average team who are realistically competing with Wales and Italy at the moment. Cast your minds back to 2012 England vs Ireland at twickenham. England monstered a makeshift Ireland scrum. The powers that be in Ireland saw this as rock bottom and vowed to sort it out. They decided to change the way that props were developed in the country to make sure they had depth for the future. Now it’s been a long road and Ireland haven’t gone beyond the quarter finals of the World Cup, but they now boast huge strength in depth at prop and in many other positions. They’ve planned meticulously to give the team the best chance of winning consistently. Now any team can lose on any given day, but they’ve reduced the odds of them losing dramatically.
As someone who was there last night it was a disgraceful performance, I hadn’t been to a England game in a few years and watching our fans leaving before the final whistle in utter disappointment. It was sad to watch.
Agree on all but Marcus Smith, would still be in maybe's for me. It was his first chance to play with a decent 12 outside him and the team ran into an oncoming train. I would probably tell him to go away and bulk up and improve his skills in terms of game management. However I just dont see what he was supposed to do yesterday when our forwards were so badly beasted.
Think you’ve hit the nail on the head with those selections. A few a bit harsh such as Hassell Collins as think he deserves a bit more time. Jack Willis is a class act but had a dreadful game and I’m sure he would admit that himself. With the pack it is all about how the unit performs and aside from Itoje they were well off it. Miles behind looked like a semi pro side v a professional side yesterday. Was scary.
Do you think Willis was essentially a bit flat thanks to last week's club game? Or is there a possibility he just doesn't have the physical presence against a big opposition back row? I tend to agree with you on form he looks world class
Disagree with your take on Marcus Smith. It's still a question mark for me. He got absolutely no service vs France because the forwards were completely useless, Genge even said it himself. And when he did get service, JVP was getting it there about 5 seconds too late. Smith made loads of metres, a few breaks and even created a 'try' from completely nowhere that was dropped over the line by Malins. His performance was reminiscent of a Garbisi performance from 2020/2021, and everyone was praising him back then for doing cool stuff in a crap Italian team
Slade has been disappointing me for a while. He seems to be an 'undroppable' but he's been really poor as of late. His defence is completely dreadful and his attack is blunt now. He used to carve it up in the Prem with his running game but he seems to make so many errors with ball in hand now and has lost his turn of pace. He seems to resort to kicking it when we have overlaps in the wide channels, maybe a lack of confidence in his own ability? He's a stark contrast against some of the world's elite 13s; Gael Fickou, Garry Ringrose, Huw Jones, Lukhanyo Am... I think it's time for some new blood at 13, although I suppose they'd need to be a distributor if we play Lawrence & Steward and they're pretty much nailed on starters now. Anyone got any suggestions? Which good Prem 13s are there who can distribute well?
Can I ask a question from France ..don't really know all your players in premier league but where are Ford Daly and May Why Rendall is not your 9 ?he is a really speed Why Mercer is not your 8 I think with those guys it will be better in my opinion . And I would like to see Arundel starting player too?
Agree with most of your rankings, but Steward isn't quick enough to be a world class full back, watch the two Penaud tries and Ramos just ran away from him.
It starts in the forwards. Lawes and Ribbands must be in the mix to start, if and when Lawes gets back to fitness. We need Lawes's abrasive tackling and Ribband's bulk. Equally Ruskin must, must come in to bolster our scrum. I don't think Walker looked bad when he came on but I'd like to have another look at Blamire and McGuigan when they are fit. Equally with the defensive frailties of Slade, Tuliagi, if he can find form needs to be considered. A combo of Tuilagi and Lawrence would stand-up to a rugged French midlfield and any midfield frankly. I predict Tuilagi might find himself on the bench against Ireland...so we don't have a No.8 playing 13 against Ireland! If and it's a big 'if' we can find our intensity and fitness up front (hopefully Aled Walthers will have something to say about that), our backs will look leagues better. We can't right off players like Smith or Hassell Collins as we haven't seen them on the front foot. We were monstered by France upfront and at the breakdown. If we can somehow turn that around, the selection of our backs can look very different. Steward is our talisman now in the backs and I hope his performance is highlighted in analysis next week in camp.
I was just thinking that if you'd to pick a Lions team at this moment, it would be an all Irish/Scottish affair for the starting team. And maybe just 1-2 Welsh/English players on the bench. A weird time to be alive.
@@dazeng4633 that was really funny. 😂 Maybe replace the Scottish element with the Irish - with Gibson Park, Lowe, Aki, Hansen. What you don’t like is a Scottish team beating your team (yet again). England are admittedly the most boring, talentless team in the top 8. Living in the pst.
Freddy Stewart the only England player that could match his opponent on the day and stood out. The rest was very average to even absolutely nowhere. England had a very bad day more than France being brilliant. France did the basics very well and at pace that translates into momentum.
Nailed it, England were so bad they made France look fantastic, France made lots of errors , Ntamack kicked away several try winning chances and was far from his best. The score should have been a lot worse for England.
Structural problems. Too many foreign players in the Premiership. France limits the number not eligible to play for France in the top league. What goes around comes around. There are periods when a country simply does not produce enough talented players. We did in the build up to 2003 World Cup and Wales before that. Now is the turn of Ireland and France. This has been coming for some time really since the last 2 years of Jones time as head coach.
I think you have been very generous to many players, it seems to me that this group of players are very limited and recently England have only defeated bad teams. The discipline of the team is terrible, sinckler and itoje are walking penalties. The pack isn’t dominant and the backs have little flair, the best attacking weapons england have they refuse to play, and this has happened for many years. If Arundell for example is as talented as he seems then he must start. Lastly I didn’t know Henry slade played yesterday where was he?
We need athletic players in all positions, props and second row players who can run ! play for 80 minutes and are strong mentally. What players can add speed and size to England ? answers on a post card or maybe on the back of a stamp lol 🤪
I thought our back row was absolutely outclassed. Compare Aldrit with Dombrant for instance. Different class entirely. Ben Curry looked good as soon as he came on, as did Mtchell at 9 and I thought Watson and in particular Steward were solid. Itoje was solid too but the rest were pretty abject
England have the worst 8 (Dadbodbrandt) ; 9 (Youngs's understudy/slow ball twin) and 13 (Slade missed important tackles on the first french 2 tries and ruined the defence by trying crappy intercepts) in the 6 Nations.
I think England need to commit to a philosophy, they pick some world class potential modern attacking players but then still try and play a bully ball style game. Play the X factors like Hassell Collins, Roebuck on wings with arundall at 15 commit to smith with centres who aren’t fly halves (Farrell and slade) and bring in mobile forwards it’ll take time but look at Ireland they committed to a philosophy and after a few years of pain they’re now number 1. England are too focused on tradition, get rid of the old private school bully ball nonsense
It's hard for the backs when the forwards were smashed off the park. The 9 appeared slow. But it must be coaches instructions because they are still kicking precious possession away, when on attack. Brainless. Not a single player would make a world 15. None of them are world class. Maro used to be, Genge might be. That's it. Stop deluding yourselves
The name not on there where you need to start is Borthwick. He worked for Eddie Jones as the forward coach. If the forwards under Jones were not good enough then that’s on Borthwick. So.. how has Borthwick changed? What new ideas/ strategies/ vision does he have that he didn’t have back then? How is he learning? Who from? What’s different about training? Which new staff members has he brought in? Why? What are they bringing to the table? My big worry is that before the French game the England management were saying that England were fitter than the French ( wishful thinking) and the bigger French pack would fall away. Instead the bigger French players were more dynamic, more athletic, more powerful and more aware so before looking at which players are world class you need to ask Is the England set up world class ? The answer is absolutely not at this point and I’d like to see the management / coaching staff rated- because on the evidence they’re a long way from understanding how to get better.
Players who should never touch an England Shirt again: 1) Dombrandt 2) Hassell Collins 3) Max Malins Also Dan Cole and Mako V far too old and slow now.
Your criteria is hard to follow. Lawes is injured and hasn’t played for ages but you’ve seen him be world class before. Ok, so then surely by that logic Farrell is world class because he has done it in the past?
I am not entirely sure what your definition of world class is? Bottom line is none of your world class players would get in the Ireland or French teams. England have a headstart over almost every nation in the world with their resources in terms of money and player numbers and they are judged to a higher standard because of it. Beating Italy and Wales is fine but you can't ship 50 points at home to anyone.
I'm new to this channel, so forgive my ignorance, but don't be so hard on England hah (I don't know if they are your team). Very very good France side vs a newly developing England side. We see freak results, time to time (NZ v France in England World Cup). Be patient. Although I deeply suspect that Borthwick won't be around too long (sadly - England have had some amazing coaches, who seem to get treated VERY hard). Andy Farrell as your coach within 12 months I'm predicting. I can see England running Ireland close, if not winning, this weekend also
He’s so poor in defence it’s embarrassing and I’m not sure what he offers in attack but the odd crash ball. I’m not convinced he’s made a single pass the whole tournament
Great topic to encourage positive and open analysis as always 👏 .. personally think difficult to analyse the potential of any players after a harsh defeat. England had no platform for large parts of game.. France executed their plan and looked amazing (first 10mins second half Eng showed something can work) unfortunately collisions lost all over the park and no incisive gameplan during rest of game.. scrum and breakdown issues exposed, forward packs ball handling skill, speed and management of creating go forward not consistent.. no doubting that England have players who have played, can or will soon arrive at a world class level in their respective postion but plain to see way behind France first of all as a team! very difficult for any player in any team game to perform or rapidly improve if the fundamental platform and structures are not cohesive, possibly not understood and not executed precisely at test level. Personally prefer not to single out anyone as i think issues are larger than any one individual.. not even messi could always help Argentina win every game! in Italy team invested in keeping mentally strong and believing in process (slow process 🤪 ) Team for years striving to execute more consistently at test level. A fundamental part of Italys puzzle was always not enough world class players, (every team needs at least 5/6) skill level, execution commitment to game plan. now its changing. Italian team steadily increasing potential! Italy will soon Win but above all is consistently playing better and enjoyable to watch and support. No one can convince me that England have a limited playing pool of potentially world class players and resources. England have been a world class team will find their way back..its a cycle! ! A humbling can be beneficial in order to reboot if there is open and honest analysis of whats necessary in order to rebuild. Who is selected to proudly represent the team will naturally come clear, as if management has right gameplan, the players that can demonstrate to consistently execute that game plan rise above, both in training and match day. Win or lose! #Rugby community 🇮🇹 #italianrugby
Some changes needed especially at 8,9,13 and either Ford or Farrell at 10 (and I’m a Smith fan). Arundell needs to start with Malins moving into the 23 shirt. Any chance of a video of what players would come in and out if Borthwick gets free range on squad changes
Which players would get in any of the the top four sides - maybe Itoje and Steward. And we have 3 decent enough FHs. The rest are just also rans. This isn't really a coach, selection or tactics issue; we have plenty of players, but they're all pretty average. Roll on RWC27 or maybe 31.
Agree with all of these. Our back row in particular was exposed by the French - in attack and defence - too slow, not dynamic enough, rarely challenging at the breakdown. On our own ball we didn't recycle quickly enough - we finally wrestled the ball back to JVP who threw an average pass to Smith who was immediately swamped by a well-set French defence. Quick ball = fragmented defences. We saw that briefly when Mitchell came on but we couldn't sustain it. I think we need a much more mobile and fitter back row plus some genuine pace in the back three.
I'm thinking the dry patch is the best analogy - Players who are past the peak of their ability and youngsters who are yet to develop sufficiently to be considered British lions quality yet alone world class. For me it is time to experiment a little. Quickly establish the wheat from the chaff. For example, it would now make sense to see ted Hill at 6. We clearly have a problem finding a ball carrier at 8 so he could certainly provide some extra ballast. Likewise Arundell he just has to start, let's understand if his speed and power can make an impact. Props, mako and cole have to go... Let's see the next generation even if it does feel like we are pushing them in the deep end
Tricky! It's surprising how the native English game doesn't have as much depth of choice as you'd think. Jones had no illusions but Borthwick is perhaps learning painfully and quickly how foreign player contracts and success fit easier together.
I don't think I could blame Willis too much for not showing up at the break down given how badly we did in the tackle area If you don't bring down the carrier quickly you can't bring your back row into the game You are being too harsh on Smith. He didn't have anything to work with. Most of the time he was in the frame when France scored because he actually worked to cover half way across the pitch He maintained a work rate even when everything was against him on that day JVP is playing to the script which has been detrimental to.his game
I think back to games that England played yes ime Irish and England were powerful strong players and together as a team yesterday what i saw was a team not connected as one on the day they played crap rugby ,France on the day were red hot passion and drive and a game plan .sorry lads great one France .
Feel for smith, hard for him to do anything when the forwards were being beaten up Sinkler looked injured to me also, he's a better player than his performance yesterday Think Tom Willis or Mercer at 8 for me
It all starts with the pack, and we give away so many turnovers or penalties because players aren't getting to rucks quick enough and ball carriers are getting isolated
Not to absolve the current coaches entirely, but the problem with squad depth is largely down to Jones not developing options in certain positions over the last three years (2, 8, 9 being cases in point). At hooker for example, he stuck with George and LCD and barely gave anyone else a shot. Meaning that if either of those guys had a long-term injury or bad loss of form, as is the case right now (George has been great for England but I agree with RA that he's probably done at this level), who's next? Walker is one of several hookers with a tiny bit of experience, but it's not clear who the guys are coming through to take the 2 and 16 shirts. That's Eddie's chickens coming home to roost.
England were like headless chickens running around aimlessley because there was no leadership.Owen Farrell like Jonny sexton for Ireland is that leader, Jonny Sexton is 36 years old but his mind is still to sharp for most. Owen is the same reads the game so well can give that killer pass and is rarely beaten in the tackle, give him the 10 shirt now and let him run the show for England like he should have been doing all along he is one of the greatest players ever to put on the England shirt but the press and the trolls have tried to distroy him but just like when hes playing he never bends to presssure.Hes working class and rugby league trained which as never sat well with the establisment.
What is your definition of "World Class"? In my book there's club class, international class and then way head of that there's world class. For me, a world class player is one who would get into any team in the world. I think that the players you have cited as being world class are in fact international class (with the exception of Itoje perhaps).
And this England team could well be in a RWC semi final 🤔....2023 RWC will hopefully force a change of policy about when the draw for 2027 RWC sold be made
Firstly bravo on a good show . I listen weekly . As a neutral I have seen a real Drop off from England in the last 2/3 years in terms of size and physicality in the front row especially . Although I’m Not a big fan I think you miss Marler and his size . Englands forward / front row replacements are not good enough . Surely everyone can see that and your 8 man looks out of his depth and not strong enough . I’m Yet to see an English 9 that I rate ( maybe Care at times ) . England have loads of players but is there any depth . Basically guys England look weak up front . There is no gnawl , power , turnover , pace etc . You have good second rows and Laws is class . Genge is good . Cowan sickie good , Jack nowell v good . Farrel is good and Watson and your 15 . Centre partnership looks average . Why did you revert to farrel / Smith again ? It looks like a mess . Good luck to England btw . We need England and all the teams to be strong as possible for our sport and keep up the good work on this show
Other than wanting to be controversial, I don't understand how Marcus Smith isn't at least a maybe. There's clearly a player in there and he's certainly performed well for England at points in his short international career (Win over South Africa in 2021 for example). Then you have Malins on your maybe list? I don't get it. Tell me in what way has Malins shown he could be World Class? He's good at a lot of things but doesn't do anything that makes him exceptional, the modern day Alex Goode.
Great analysis. I think the common thread is lack of dynamism and athleticism all across the park. Too few players have a real point of difference, they move slowly and think at the same rate - that will always struggle to break down good defences. Having said that, I feel for Dombrandt - his start to international rugby has been nightmare inducing and his confidence is gone. Unfortunately none of the leadership group in the side is playing well enough to help him steady and not try too hard. The new coaches are arguably in the same boat of having to settle in themselves. Not ideal, but the Red Rose will rise again in time, they always do - hopefully not before next weekend however, haha. Cheers.
Some good comments. I disagree with your views on Smith though, like Jason Robinson I think you build a team around him not drop him. JVP too like Youngs, slows ball down. Sinkler and Willis are injured, can’t carry knocks at this level. Defensively we were weak as the back row and 12-15 just too slow and wrong footed time and again. Steward is a big lump but not a world class 15. Maybe a 12/13? He could lose some timber and work on his speed too.
England have a game in Dublin next week against the Irish and then the World Cup. (Maybe Eddie knew something and decided to bolt). The writing has ben on the wall for two years now. Relying on the 2019 team to go to the 2023 world cup was a disaster waiting to happen.....And it has
Regardless of player quality and too many basic errors under pressure, I just felt we were watching a team that has not clicked. This has been an issue for a while now and the top teams have exposed it.
As an Irish fan I have always rated curry (the good one), underhill and Earl. I'm assuming injuries are the reason they are not being selected. Aside from the terrible tactics, England's core (hooker, 8, 9, 10) is lacking quality. These are the guys who have the most ball involvements and decide how a team performs
As much as I like Dombrandt, I don’t think he is able to make the step up to international rugby. Looks like England are waiting for Mercer to be available
I must have watched a different game. Itoje? Apart from a couple of decent plays he shuffled about looking totally disinterested except for the boorish histrionics on the few occasions England got something right. I suppose if you're desperately seeking some positives and happy to ignore the negatives then you just might come to the conclusion that he is still a world class player.
We (IRE) remember 1972 when End turned up (to standing ovation) & S & W didn’t so we lost a grand slam potentially. We haven’t forgotten Eng sportsmanship then. Eng can only get better but is a LT WIP for SB. Agree many players below international standard but problem is Eng system incl. clubs not properly developing players. Press are elevating new players as world class before their time. Marcus Smith a case in point. Runs all over the place! (Imagine D Beggar & Marcus S picked by WG over JS for last Lions trip - what lunacy). The Eng system is dysfunctional & development system is broken. You will be back! Keep up the terrific analysis.
I'm getting tired of some of the rugby pundits on certain other RU-vid Rugby channels saying Marcus Smith is amazing, he is not even close to being one of the best flyhalfs in World rugby, seems like he's another club Rugby only player
I didn’t think that the pack fired yesterday and Poortvliets slow distribution made it a fairly woeful afternoon. I don’t think that Smith has what it takes.
Get in: Ruskin, Rodd, Blamire, Dunn, Davison, Stuart, Ribbans, launchbury, T Hill, Pearson, T Willis, Mercer, Quirke, Ford, Kelly, Murley, Arundell, OHC( more than 2 games), Barbeary(pray not injured too long) and Freeman Underperforming: Itoje,George, Smith, Slade Get out not top level: Vunipola, Sinkler, Ludlum, Dombrandt, Van Portvelit, Cole,
IMO the premiership is England's problem. If you selected a top 15 from it now I don't think a single English qualified player would get in apart from Arundell. If you limit clubs to 3 overseas players per game it would allow home grown talent to come through. It would take time but at present English Rugby is going backwards. Physically we looked lightweight against France in almost every position.
A lot of the English players are technically sound but when it comes to creativity, pass-catch, athletic ball carrying and line running they are shockingly average
ive heard this argument before and im starting to agree with it, happened in football when loads of cheaper foreign players came into the premiership. looks like more needs to be done to bring young players through but like everything it comes down to money, finn russel is going to break the bank at bath next year, ive an idea lots of cheaper overseas players may come in to balance the books, not against foreign players by any means they deserve to try for the teams as much as english players,france restructured and invested in their youth and its paying off big time.
I think I agree with this. Too many South Africans, Argentinians, etc etc. When the list of viable number 8's runs to three, and one of them is Billy Vunipola, it's dire straights. Props sparse, inside centers, pathetic.
Need to find another 15. A modern 15 needs flat pace. Steward doesn't have it. When was the last time he made a line break with ball in hand ? Being good under a high ball and a big boot doesn't cut it anymore. He was found out for at least 2 French tries where he could not match the pace of the opponent.
While I can agree with most of your lists, I do think there is also a potential flaw in this exercise. I guess by world class we are saying that the player would fit into any of the top sides and shine, but at the same time some of this depends on systems and combinations imho. Yes, some players look out of their depth - Dombrandt appears to lack the physicality to back up his great running lines in PR; JVP is painfully slow and predictable; same with Farrell, who is kicking too much ball away. Slade has always lacked pace too, as has Malins. Steward is a great catcher but again lacks pace and guile! None of them can consistently fully take advantage of space and opportunity. All of these have pretty good rugby brains but that isn’t enough. Why give MS a slow service and surround him with players who cannot support some guile with understanding space and backing it up with pace? Poor H-C on the wing suffered a similar fate. In addition, what we saw from the French performance was everyone knowing their role and combining well together. Remember our s-f vs the All Blacks 2019? We can do it. I still think we have enough talent in the premiership, we just need a system and tactics that suit that talent plus the realisation that certain current players are not the best in their position anymore.
I think for the final week camp u overhaul the squad as much as he’s aloud bring in Ruskin, Thacker, Randall, Thorley, Ackerman and take out mako V Dunn, JVP and Dombrandt give fringe players some game time like Rodd Ribbans Murley off the bench but personally if I was England coach my squad against Ireland would be Genge George Cole (start him or don’t play him at all to slow for the bench) Ribbans Chessum Ludlum B,Curry Ackerman Mitchell Farrell Arundell Lawrence Slade Watson Steward Thacker Ruskin or Rodd Sinckler Itoje Willis Randall Smith Murley
Any chance Borthwick can use the next fixtures as an opportunity to bring in some different faces who deserve a shot? 1 Rapa Ruskin, 2 Thacker, 3 Stuart, 4 Martin, 5 Ribbans, 6 Hill, 7 Earl 8 Mercer, 9 Quirke, 10 Ford 11 Arundel 12 Dingwall 13 Northmore, 14 Radwan 15 Freeman.
World cup XV if everyone's fit. 15 Steward (Great in the air and going forward) but, Is he fast enough at this level. 14 Watson 13 Lawrence 12 Tuilagi 11 Arundell 10 Ford 9 Mitchell 1 Genge 2 Cowen-Dickie 3 Sinckler 4 Itoje 5 Chessum 6 Lawes 7 Curry T 8 Mercer
Sometimes you have to hit the bottom before you can start to bounce back. Let’s hope this is it! Some positives: we have a second row pairing; T Curry, Cowan-Dickie and hopefully Lawes will be back for the World Cup; we have a very promising inside centre, and a world class full back. I would get Earl into the back row for Ireland, and either he or Ludlam plays 8. We have to start the search for a number 8 somewhere! Might as well get cracking. Of the current squad, Mitchell and Arundell must start, and Farrell should go back in at 10. Not sure which of Watson or Malins I’d pick. The former seems (like many England players) to not be as sharp as he was 2-3 years ago, the latter is undoubtedly skilful, but is he edgy enough for international rugby? Ditto Slade.
A much more realistic assessment than some of your glass-half-full thoughts in recent months, Rich. BUT….. Let me ask you one question - if Owen Farrell was French would you dismiss his chances of ever starting for France? - if S/African would you confidently discount him ever starting for the ‘Boks? - if Irish would he not be the automatic back up for world No1 Jonny Sexton ?? You, like so many, seem to have a fashionable “down” on Faz of late - which is frankly disappointing. Maybe he isn’t currently quite what he once was - but he’s still close to world-class in my book, and unquestionably THE stand-out England performer of the las decade. Nuff said. On other fronts, Dombrandt is as ineffectual as ANY England No8 that I’ve seen on 50 years. Should not play again. Simmonds even on an off-day always has commitment and vigour and belief. I can’t understand why all the chatterati have written him off. JVP will probably never come out of his shell - he may have the ability, but clearly will never have the temperament. Slade and Malins are classy club players - but in the world of modern high impact rugby, neither has the tools ro mix it with top international opposition. Next weeks game will be a revelation - if Borthers has learnt ANYTHING about selection and strategy from this defeat. I want to see what reaction we get from Willis and Ludlam and Lawrence and Chessum - and indeed Smith, who I still want to see from the bench. If they are as good as I believe them to be, they will rise hugely to the challenge. We will of course lose to a superb Ireland team - but the manner of that defeat will tell us a lot about who should figure in the reconstruction going forward.
Englands oldest enemies the Scots and Frence have beaten England at Twicken in 2023 you would have had good odds on England winning both these games, the excuses will be coming out 'oh were building a new team' same old England and Smith cant even tackle a bag of crisps such poor tackling.
With respect, while ‘world class’ is a subjective term, have you really applied your mind to what this means? None (as in not a SINGLE member) of this England team would get a spot in the Ireland, France, NZ or South African teams. So there is not a single contender for world class billing, not even close. The most laughable part is your continued bigging up of Genge - he is exceptionally weak in the front row. The English front row isn’t even top 8. I reckon Georgia, Uruguay and maybe Romania have better front rows.
Not bad, but……… Freddy Steward is too slow, can’t really defend and not nimble enough to be world class - compare him to the other FBs in the 6 nations, and he is maybe comes 5th, maybe 6th. Owen Farrell has had it - he is too old, too slow and lacking in guile to be a 10, and not big enough to be a 12. Courtney Lawes is too old and injury prone to be a viable prospect. To succeed at this level we need to star breading bigger, nastier forwards. You cannot persist with a trio of midgets (am I allowed to say that?) in the back row, and hope to compete with France, Ireland, SA and NZ. This whole England team is missing some aggression - other nations (even Italy) appear more passionate. A simple illustration of this is leg drive in the tackle - watch Cowan Dickie, Simmons and Nowell (and I’m not an Exeter fan; or suggesting they should be picked) and they are not passive when they are tackled. Compare this to almost everyone on display yesterday - Dombrandt in particular was a joke. This is a simple thing to coach. I’m not pretending this is the answer to all our woes, but shows the public and your team mates that you are trying.
Let’s start with world class. Itoje. Whenever other international coaches are asked, he’s the only one consistently mentioned. And yes he had a good game against France. Still needs to work on his power and speed as his carrying is not up with the Etzebeths of this world. Of the rest, the following need to go for ever. Slade- powder puff Lawrence - completely outclassed against France Sinckler - can’t seem to carry against the best and strictly a 45 minute player. Cole, Mako - dreadful as subs, offer nothing. Is this really the best England can offer? Dombrandt. I love Dombrandt but if you can’t catch the ball… not fit and powerful enough either Ben Curry - can’t hack it Earl - lightweight Lawes - too old, easily injured Farrell - his day has been and gone Van Portfliet. Never sure why he was selected. Looked so slow vs Anton Dupont George - yesterdays man Ludlam - lightweight second rated Who you can keep and hope they improve. Players like Willis have potential, but he’s clearly not fit enough for a full game. Chessum likewise, got to work on his power Arundell, increasingly concerned that he has anything to offer as an international, but has some potential. Smith - secondbest England player in terms of stats Genge - looking a bit lightweight vs the best props but at least makes an effort. Malins - only a maybe as had the skills but probably too slow to be a great Watson - prone to error. His time has probably gone. Steward - does his best within his limits, but surely just holding a place till someone with proper speed is found. Why not try him at no.6? Let’s face it, this team look unathletic and lack power in the forwards. Without any kind of ability to dominate, it wouldn’t matter if Dan Carter was fly half, they will never compete with the best. The worry is that there are so few players in the Prem who would do much better. I have not included players like Ford or Mercer as they haven’t had any game time during the autumn and 6N.
The question isn't really who is World Class but unfortunately has to be: Is this one of the best 23 players available to England? Also there is the question of: Are these the best coaches available to England? Has Borthwick given any clarity apart from clearly picking a side that wasn't good enough? Has he motivated his side? Genge said England fought for 80% of the game. Professionals should surely be fighting for 100% of the game.
Premiership rugby has become very weak in all aspects. Top4/5 International teams have a relatively small pool of players to pick from unlike England. Their players are the best for a reason. The cream always comes to the top. RFU need to cull half the Premiership.. Amalgamate teams & then build a League that will produce world class players who will compete for England against any side anywhere. The manner of the French defeat is totally unacceptable which is why radical changes must be made otherwise England will become the laughing stock of World Rugby.... Just a thought.. 🙄
Hi, I agree with all ur thumbs up, but Watson is for sure world class, Malins is nowhere at the same level as Watson. I really disagree with your opinion on Marcus Smith, again giving Malins a ? and MS a thumbs down???... MS was actually was one of the best players against France along with Itoje, Cheesum, Steward, Watson and Ben Curry. On the other hand Sinckler, Slade, Poortvliet and Dombrandt had a very very poor game.
Here's the situation the way I see it - we don't have any other options in terms of international standard players. Sure there are a few star performers in the Prem who we are yet to see, but we need Test match animals. Ultimately we are lacking World Class players. We simply don't have what it takes to beat the best teams in the world right now. Unfortunately this cannot be resolved quickly, we are just in low point of the natural cycle. It happened to France, South Africa and Ireland in relatively recent memory. The fact that we don't have a nailed-on 8/9/10 is a massive problem. This is the backbone of the team and without strength in this area you simply cannot perform at the highest level. I'm a big fan of Dombrandt but he has been given plenty of chances to prove himself and he has never taken the step up from Prem level. Simply not good enough. Same goes for JVP - I'm glad he was given a run of games over Youngs but he also doesn't cut it. I wouldn't write off Smith just yet, but our 10's going into RWC should probably be Farrell and Ford. Borthwick's job between now an RWC2023 is to galvanise this group of players into a 'whole greater than the sum of their parts'. We don't have a team full of superstars but in the right system with all players knowing their exact jobs, we can still challenge the top teams. Ultimately QF should be the aim for this world cup, then start the rebuild phase.
