@@redrowolloftnod5230 If you ignore his references of Calr Jung (I guess there's your pseudoscience) he's pretty right scientifically and rationally about most of what he says. He only has been showed in few PragerU videos where he didn't even went to their studio or anything like that. I do agree that the more you stay away from PragerU, the better. But I really think that Jordan Peterson is a very interesting and smart person to listent to. As Steven Pinker, I'm very fan of both of them.
Steven Pinker - Why is it so mysterious to you that crime in western countries have fallen? The more Freedom of Speech, the LESS VIOLENCE. Fucking easy, isn't it
AlexForSale, Denmark has tried to mimic the american constitution.' This has absolutely been beneficial to us. The founding fathers were geniouses, and not to honor them is a scandal. I PUKE, when I see football players kneel to the anthem.
AlexForSale, which dictatorship through all of history was NOT based on a huge state, censorship and extreme violence? You can list all those dictatorships and see this by just doing count of any murder.
I am Ukrainian living in Ukraine and working for the company who sells material handling equipment. Can someone explain why the hack I am so attracted to this and cannot stop watching Dr. Peterson's videos, given that a lot of problems he discusses are way below the radar in Ukraine and we not even close to the level of humanitarian culture which is in the Western countries.
What do you mean by: "a lot of problems he discusses are way below the radar in Ukraine and we not even close to the level of humanitarian culture which is in the Western countries." Can you elaborate more?
On our miscrediting of achievement, my favorite is: "Plumbers have saved far more lives that doctors have." Along with other sanitation workers and city workers that maintain the city's pipes have probably done more than anyone to reduce prevalence of disease.
Well farmers and food workers have saved more lives than both plumbers and doctors combined. the reason why a doctor gets more praise than a mcdonalds chef or a plumber is that anyone can be trained to do the latter job and they're easily replaced. Doctors and scientists, not really.
Thank you both. I, in the past two months, finished both Enlightenment Now and 12 Rules for Life, easily the top two most inspiring and influential books I have ever had the privilege of reading. I look forward to hearing more from you both and highly encourage you to continue your work because I firmly believe that the good that will come from your work is insurmountable and much needed in this age that is driven by social media and an overall focus on negativity and a cultural numbing to all, that truly hinders our ability to thrive as human beings. Thank you. A million times, thank you. Thank you for having the courage to speak with conviction. It has given me the courage to stand up strait with my shoulders back and move forward with confidence. (I'm allergic to cats and will not be petting them unfortunately). Again, thank you both. I look forward to more and more from you both
Jared Christensen this is from early April.. he mentions 7 weeks on best seller for the book released mid-February.. also, see his April Q&A - same frame and getup except a blue shirt
just read "Enlightenment now". It was given to me by my father and i cant quit get enough of this stuff. i feel like i learn more in an hour talk (one page in some books) then in 5 years of collage,
This was great. I love having a very bright person opposite Jordan who can push back intelligently when they think Jordan is wrong. I would love to see a lot more like this and longer if possible. Thank you both for doing this - it is greatly appreciated.
Thank you Dr. Pinker and Dr. Jordan. I enjoyed the video very much. Sometimes we all need to be reminded how good we actually have it and a little appreciation helps us all. So Dr. Jordan, FYI, I am a mid-fifties retired Industrial Designer now a house wife who was introduced to you by my teenage son. Your word is spreading!
Whoa talk about a meeting of minds. It always just shocks me because I get to see this FOR FREE! Thank You JP and thank you Dr. Steven Pinker for using this platform to speak. Love your work!
Back in the 1980's, at the dawn of cable news, the comic Bills Hicks had a great bit about "Have you ever watch CNN for 48 hrs straight?" "War, death, famine.!" "Then I look outside my window and the sun is shinning, the birds are chipping." "Oh well, back to CNN. War, death, AIDS, famine!"
shining - from crappy spell checking or I could have stated, "nice weather or day outside". But it's really not that difficult to understand the original statement.
Excellent point! Is our reality reflected in the dramatic abstractions of daily media or our personal work-a-day activities? From a purely pragmatic view much more contentment is found by tuning out the minute by minute news barrage. If you're really concerned about poverty, etc. volunteer at your local rescue mission.
I had a thought, I can appreciate the observations about the media's trend towards sensationalist stories and negative news and how that in general the reality is, that things are improving, the example of numbers of ppl leaving abject poverty and levels of literacy being the most impressive to me, but what if, and stay with me for a bit, but what if it's the fact that we think everything is awful is the reason things are getting better!!!!?
Robert W you might not have seen it, but many of Jordan’s critics, albeit illegitimate and barely worth their salt, have said that Jordan is too cowardly to debate anyone who has any sense. Complete fools.
he HASN'T SAID THAT HE GOT VERY DEFENSIVE AND SAID i DON'T LIKE THE FORMATION OF THE qUESTION AT MIN HE IS A GNOSTIC THEIST WITH ALL HIS DECONSTRUCTING OF THE BIBLE.
YES BUT WHAT YOU ARE HEARING IS IN THE PAST AND NO LONGER EXISTS AND NOT EVEN THAT , WE ARE, IN WATCHING THIS PROGRAM, EXPERIENCING A 2D REPRESENTATION OF A POSSIBLE REAL EVENT NOT THE EVENT ITSELF. THEREFORE IF WE CANNOT PROVE THAT THE PHONE ACTUALLY RANG( ONLY SUSPENDING DISBELIEF ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF THE 2D DOCUMENT WE ARE WATCHING) THEN WE CANNOT PROVE THAT THE PHONE RANG IN REALITY OR THAT IT EVER RANG IF NOBODY PICKED THE BLOODY THING UP ANYWAY. SORRY MY NOODLE IS STARTING TO COOK AND IT WAS PROBABLY SAM HARRIS ON THE PHONE ANYWAY AND WHO WANTS TO DEAL WITH THAT.
I was a bit upset about this at first, but it seems he did actually break the law. He wasn't arrested just for his opinions. It's illegal to film an ongoing court case in the UK. He deserves equal treatment and that's what his arrest represents, as far as I can tell.
...and that's why the system is poorly structured. It would be better to isolate jury members from media influence during the trial than silencing media and citizens.
@gggrow: he actually didn't break the law as far as I can tell. What you're talking about is contempt of court, for which he earlier has received a suspended sentence, but that wasn't the case this time. He was actually very careful not to allow for that and only gave information that was already out in public. He was actually arrested for breach of peace, for which there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever and was sentenced within 2 hours by the judge.
Watching a video of Dr. Peterson instead of cleaning up your room is like scarfing down a large burger in the sofa while watching a show about nutrition and explaining to your pals that eating right is of utter importance... It is funny, for the right crowd.
Given the cultural-intellectual contributions of each, this exchange was far more convivial than I had anticipated. Epistemology was avoided, despite the powerful positions each bring forward and which really cannot be seen as occupying anything approaching common ground. For Pinker, Jungian psychology, phenomenology, myth, mysticism and the like simply don't pass through the Enlightenment filter and, as far as I'm concerned, this is Peterson's greatness; his putting the supra-rational forward for public discussion.
Two of my favourite thinkers talking to each other! Awesome! I'd love to see you chat with Noah Harari Yuval next. Fundamentalist Evangelicalism hates the fact that humanity is improving. Their message is predicated upon the fact that things are getting worse and worse and humanity is growing more and more evil. At the same time, we have a pandemic of existential crises in the West. Suicide is up, divorce is up. Relationships and social interactions seem to be at an all time low. People in third world countries and wartorn areas have more sense of belonging and purpose than we do in our affluent societies. Peterson is addressing this but I think Pinker should focus his next book on it.
Your unidimentional views on every issue is dogma just like the thing you criticize. Pointing to anything solely as causal lacks imagination and depth. Try not demonizing entire groups of people you disagree with and you'll make progress in leaving the ideology you're trapped in. It owns you, you don't own it.
Rob Jacobs my reply was directed at the original commenter. His little condescending tone toward fundamentalist evangelicals. Pinker and Peterson have a balanced view that there are people with varied views and faiths and each has value as an individual. The folks who think non intellectual common folks are worthy of their contempt bother me. I'm neither an intellectual nor an evangelical. Elitist dogma is part of the problem on both extremes.
Marty Bugg I also believe people have value as individuals. I was a Fundamentalist Evangelical for 13 years so I am criticizig myself first. I am not an intellectual elitist. Also, it appears you are judging me in a very similar way to the way you claim I am judging Evangelical Fundamentalists. I'd be interested to know what sort of elitist dogma you think I hold to based on my OP.
Arcane Wisdom TV Your entire second paragraph grouped together a broad swath of people. Then you made a statement about what they believe as though you know each one and their views on every issue. Then on top of that came to an unflattering conclusion based on another broad generalization you personally believe about the entire group. My only point in objecting is that viewing people as some group that you name in order to dispairage one aspect of their life is the oposite of the ideas discussed in this video. If the individual is to have value, don't play the identity politics game based on their religion, race, gender, etc. It puts you on the same side of the coin with those who wish to divide us and cast aspersions at any group not "my" group. Tribalism.
Even when shows/creators manage to get top not visuals, the audio is almost always neglected. Resulting in some big channels with overall horrible audio.
How would you recommend handling audio for a streaming live conversation like this? Is it purely mic positioning? He has a Rode NT-USB though it's unclear if it's being used here or if it's used correctly.
This type of mutual discussion/conversation/debate is exactly what I love to see. I can imagine this is the same type of discussion that would occur if the two of you were meeting over lunch. I feel as if I'm the guy at the next table eavesdropping on the two of you. I believe we, as a collective, need much more of this type of learning experience. Thank you to both Doctors.
bluerays FC The guy gets $80,000+ on Patreon every single month. His fans already give him plenty of money, he could get a decent mic for less than 1% of his monthly income.
Hey, Dr. Pinker, if you're reading these comments, I'm really enjoying your book! Id bought the dystopian narrative I'd been fed in college, and had no idea that there were so many reasons to be optimistic; how humanity has so much to lose. Thanks for your work!
Funny coincidence! I've actually been reading this book lately. Fascinating in that it reveals the somewhat hidden (or not spoken about) progress we have had as a human species - pretty much all within 200-300 years. I've always been aware that life has improved, but this book really puts it into perspective. Things like child mortality (and death in general) has had a dramatic decrease. It makes me wonder how life was, back when you couldn't expect all your children to survive - what a horrible fear to live with, along with the following heart-breaking grief. It is a good read, and it makes a cynic like myself feel hopefull for humanity and our ability to overcome the challenges ahead - as well as the inherent goodness within us that gets revealed when allowed to by a prospering society with increasing security and stability.
Dear Mr. Peterson, thank you for this conversation! I really enjoyed it. Please talk more about the fact that a large part of who we are as individuals is determined by factors outside of our control. You and Dr. Pinker talked a little about this idea when you both talked about winning the lottery of high intelligence and how those with such gifts should be humble. The idea that we shouldn't be too proud about something we had no hand in determining. But further, so much more of who we are as individuals - from gender and sex to race and nationality - we have absolutely no choice in. Once we come to terms with this we can then start the hard work of determining what we do have choice in and improving ourselves for not only the betterment of the individual but society as a whole. This idea of what is and is not a choice seems to me especially important right now as we see the far right in Europe and the US doubling down on ideas surrounding race and nationalist identity and the far left continuing to beat the drum of identity politics. These extremes, which seem to me to be two sides of same coin.
Steven Pinker is very interresting. I discovered him way before Dr. J.P. What the latter do more is challenging the listener. I must watch the whole of it later.
Id like Peterson to try and get John Gray on who takes issue with much of Pinkers work. He criticizes his selected reading of the enlightenment era and how he ignores that movements like Marxisms were fundamentally enlightenment projects. Hes also a bit more philosophical about some of these issues. For example he recognizes what Dostoevsky recognized in Notes from Underground that people could very well hate utopia if it ever arrived because we weren't made to be piano keys.
NerveAMVMaker John Gray is indeed a great philosopher. I consider him a left wing version of JBP. It would be interesting to have them both talk each other.
He really changed my perception of conservatism and its relationship to the free market and individualism. Id be interested in seeing them talk about individualism and group identity as Gray makes some compelling cases that individuals are often able to do important things because they feel there a part of a group and have a whole history backing them up and guiding there actions.
How does JP know so much about everything? I’d love for him to inform us how he knows SO MUCH about EVERYTHING. It’s beyond reading a book, it’s beyond reading about things online... what is it? Where does he look to learn so deeply? How do I also retain so many facts in so many various subjects?
I'm almost done with Enlightenment Now and I just have to say more than 50% of the pages made my jaw literally drop at one point or another. It's monumentally awesome to read even if you gloss over the charts.
Austin Mann I had that experience reading The Better Angel's of our Nature - his first book on the subject of monumental human progress. First time I ever got teary-eyed looking at a graph.
GOffUnit Thanks for the comment. I've read some reviews that seem to scoff at how Pinker is merely profiting off of information everyone knows like science works, violence is bad, etc... and I'm just sitting here endlessly grateful of the data and philosophy that has enabled it all.
Social media/the internet is just amazing. Quality "entertainment" such as this is totally absent on MSM. It's a true joy listening to this, not to mention the insight one gain from listening to two very intelligent person having a talk about important topics in our time.
That was lovely. It only happens occasionally that JP listens more than he talks, but when he does it's clearly because he feels that he is in presence of a powerful intellect. I think that after the horror of the Monk debate and the recent article the prophet will take stock and think about where things might be going wrong. I am confident he will choose the right path. It would be really good if JP could talk to some economists - Yanis Varoufakis on the left perhaps and someone from the Austrian school on the right. I think he has a weakness there that could be addressed.
Thank you both, Canadian proud as their both Canadian sons. Dr. Pinker's Grapes of Wrath reference was awesome as well. Don't wait to long to get together again. Grandfather dying on the side of the road, absolutely a terrific job by a young Henry Fonda. If you've never seen it, watch it.
Society has progressed incredibly in so many areas and that is reason to be optimistic. However, we live in the time period with the most potential for complete catastrophe of any time in the past (AI, runaway climate change, nuclear war, terrorism, etc.). So incrementally we are improving tremendously but that is no reason to get complacent and overly optimistic.
It was wonderful to see two of my favourite educators in an interview on the topics of probability, rational evaluations, critiquing the news and the cognitions underlying these
It amazes me how Pinker’s thought process always seem crystal clear in just about every conversation or video I’ve watched of him. He’s always seems to be on.
Wow. Around 38:00 when Dr. Pinker corrects Dr. Peterson about the divergence of violence and creativity you just know you are learning something. Gotta love these sort of exchanges.
Peterson and Pinker are nothing alike. JBP's views on the individual, socio-economics, culture and religion are far above and beyond anything that Pinker has ever presented.
I guess you have not read Pinkers books. They are both strong proponents of enlightenment values. Pinker tends to focus on why the enlightenment is good and Peterson focuses on why the alternatives are bad. Pinker does shit all over Marxism in his books. As for religion, there is no non-metaphorical god
Dr.Ehrfurchtgebietend *"there is no non-metaphorical god"* - Irrational claim. There is no way for you to know - fact. Pinker is completely dismissive of religion. I find his views embarrassingly unsophisticated and deeply flawed. "Enlightenment values" is a misnomer, though that is one area where Peterson and Pinker's beliefs overlap. JBP and pinker are more different then they are alike, however.
His answer at the end was amazing. The Enlightenment was not a consequence of religion doctrine or religion's actions. The one thing we can thank religion for is holding the gates of chaos so that the ground for change was possible. That change was than the death of religion. And religion resisted every step of the way.
I've listened to about half of this so far, but the big, big elephant in the room here is the question of debt. Yes, hundreds of millions of people are being lifted out of poverty, but global debt is rising to devastating levels. When the bubble bursts, who knows what will happen. I certainly don't know what will happen, but the price will be paid somehow.
Also the current improvements have happened on back of Western society. Which far left social constructionists have laid an axe at the base of and started chopping. If western society and culture falls I'm very doubtful this trend will continue as we haven't as a species come up with a society/culture that works as well as western society/culture. We have had freedom of speech, economic success, wild scientific advancement, and many individual freedoms. To highlight just some of it's overwhelming success. To try to tear it down is quite simply nothing short of criminal.
What you have in mind probably is the whole world bargaining its future for its present's sake. But the world doesn't borrow from the moon: ultimately, people and governments owe money to other people and governments. As long as you do not see a rising systemic risk posed by a large passive that might not be repaid, this isn't a problem for the world as much as a problem for some people and some governments. In Canada, for example, there is a systemic risk posed by private debt levels relative to income (soaring prices in large housing markets are a big part of that story). But this is Canada: the worst case scenario is a recession only in Canada. If you have in mind governments like the one stationned physically in Washington, you can sleep tight. The only way it would default is by voluntarily refusing to pay.
For some statistics on global progress, let me recommend talks of Swedish statistician Hans Rosling who developed global data base & software called Gapminder, and explained this progress on many examples. His several talks were recorded at TED & are available on RU-vid.
Dr. Peterson, a recommendation on your sound quality. Soundproofing foam or more wall coverings will cut down on the echo of your voice around the room into your microphone. Keep up the fantastic work!
Two greatest intellectuals, ahem..... Stephen Fry makes three greatest intellectuals of our time. Harris may break us down like a boot camp reset, but you are raising us like the phoenix and stitching this polarized country back together Mr. Peterson, and all whilst crossing thresholds that which may plague the timid soul. I’m going Paleo a full week now thanks to Mikheila’s help. Bought MOM and three copies of 12 and have already given them away to friends and Fam. Sportin’ my JP T-shirt depicting the doctor riding rodeo upon a lobster on an ocean wave. From Kutztown campus, Pennsylvania. You changed my life Oh Captain, my Captain. Godspeed.
Thank you for continuing to put up great conversations for free. Keep up the good work and your health, we are going to need voices like yours and Mr. Pinker.
Its a pleasure to watch this, thanks Jordan and Steven and thanks to technology that allow me to watch this trough my computer in a small town from Argentina. What a great time for living..... I wish that more people articulate their thinking with data and not only with their own feelings and common sense
"Numerous cross-cultural studies have shown that modern society-- despite its nearly miraculous advances in medicine, science, and technology-- is afflicted with some of the highest rates of depression, schizophrenia, poor health, anxiety, and chronic loneliness in human history." - Sebastian Junger I think things are getting better materialistically, but getting worse psychologically. One has to wonder how much our perceived quality of life is tied to intangible things like ideas, values, purpose, meaning, culture, relationships, as opposed to tangible things like technology and wealth. I'm not sure exactly what this tells us about humanity and where we are ultimately headed.
I used to watch your videos and be in awe at the intellect of both of you. Now that I have read a lot more your ideas have lost their lustre; I can find holes in your arguments; make better ones myself and will not take anything you or anyone else say on face value. I have become an independent free thinker the equal of either of you and it's because of you, Thank you!
Talking about progress and the resentment of it... while youtube is recieving a lot of hate right now across the board, having the ability to listen to such an unfiltered and genuine conversation between two top intellectuals of our society is INSANE. Dont take it for granted!
I'm so glad to know the favorite linguist of my teens hasn't become unpleasant to encounter like Noam Chomsky has. Thanks for reintroducing me to his work Dr. Peterson.
I have a feeling Jordan has a really good mic, but he has plugged his headphones in and the computer is picking up the mic on that. Like so he can see ( I may be wrong). Or his mic is too far away and next to a wall.
Finally the grown-ups in the room. Let's continue this expansive dialogue so we may advance forward now with the knowledge of how each side perceives a situation. Thank you!
Mimle Bimle I agree, it's just on most of Dr. Peterson's interviews he either runs over the person he is talking to, or they but heads and never get anywhere. I found it interesting how Pinker both granted and doubted some of Petersons ideas and vice versa.
It is possible to try to prove something using: 1)reason/logic/only-reality-based analysis 2)faith, which actually means - using feelings In first situation you can use logic and empiricism to verify your prove. In second you can use ... feelings. So you prove by feelings and you verify by them - you got the loop. Everyone can has a different feeling about everything and there is no way - based on faith/feelings - to decide, which one is better.
No way?! This is Mike Dyson and I just want to say, this conversational eventuality is going to magnanimously upliftify this racistentiolous African American person of coloralitie's big black bodacious heart... ya'dig, brah?! I'm BLACK, by the way... in case y'all angry white men dint notice.
These two great people are opening my eyes to a better way of looking at the world. I am switching off the main stream media and its negative sensationalist narrative way of looking at the world and finding out whats really going on and i am not just better educated i am happier, thank you.
The fact that these two gentlemen are gaining such mainstream notoriety gives me such joy. A society that embraces people like this is one in which I want to live and learn.
