The atonement brings us back into the Father’s presence! We choose to leave….second death! Mind blowing! That gives me such different perspective on Christ’s sacrifice and his mercy.. and his role as our advocate with the Father. Amazing.! Love ❤️ this!
I know it was not intended humorously, but I actually laughed out loud at Mike's synopsis of Helaman 15 (59:10): "You guys are gonna get wrecked; we're gonna be preserved -- your shot is repentance." 😆
I love S. Michael Wilcox's teachings, and remember when he told of his own snipe hunt experience as a child. Makes me chuckle, but the principle is so true!
Another purpose of the sign of Christ’s birth was to save believers. God knew that there were believers who would be persecuted and threatened with death if the sign did not come by their deadline.
Near as I can tell people actually get to the building and join others already in the building. 1st Nephi chapter 8 verse 33: And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also.
That group was not coming from the rod. “…after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost” (1 Ne. 8:23). My premise was that Satan never allows you to actually have the thing with which he tempted you off the path. There is no question that there is a source of scorners and mockers that go straight to the building. There always will be. But Satan does not seem to care much about them. He does not taunt them; they’ve always been his. But those who once stood on the straight and narrow and were tempted off the path or shamed off the path, do not join them. They are lost (23 and 28). He seems to deliberately want to destroy them.
Love listening to your insights. A little pushback on preservation being the main miracle of the Book of Mormon. I know you mentioned deliverance briefly but I don’t think preservation and deliverance are synonymous. Preservation is to safeguard or keep safe. Deliverance is to redeem or rescue. IMO-from the very first chapter (1 Nephi 1:20)-the primary message and main miracle of the Book of Mormon is that it is the portal through which we can access the power of deliverance from ANY trial, challenge, addiction, sickness, persecution, etc. through Jesus Christ. Just a thought to clarify.
I appreciate that. But name a miracle of deliverance from the Book of Mormon; as we normally perceive miraculous events. I can name at least a half dozen miraculous events regarding preservation. But I can’t think of a miraculous event that is a deliverance. Nephi was preserved from his angry brothers. Abinadi from the priests of Noah. A passed out Ammon from someone seeking to slay him. The stripling warriors. Samuel the Lamanite. Even the Liahona was more a preservation from hunger and lost time than a deliverance from an enemy trying to destroy them. Now, I’m not saying that deliverance is not a major MESSAGE of the book of Mormon. Or a major THEME of the book of Mormon. What I’m pointing out is that the miraculous events IN the Book of Mormon are preservation; over and over again. That was not a reference to the miracles that the Book of Mormon brings into our lives. I was simply pointing out the miracles within the text.
Thanks for the feedback. I think from Lehi’s family being delivered from destruction, Nephi being delivered from his brothers multiple times, Alma and Amulek delivered from prison, Alma delivered from sin, stripling warriors delivered from death, etc. all the miracles are examples of Jesus delivering through his power. I guess you could use preserved but I just don’t think being preserved from sin, destruction, bondage, death, etc. carries the same meaning as being delivered from them. IMO, deliverance carries an element of strengthening and growth through adversity. Preservation is more safeguarding someone while they remain in bondage or suffering. Sorry so long but all my family listens to your podcast weekly. We had quite the discussion about the “returning-to-the Father’s-presence” discussion. Is it your belief that we all return to the Father’s presence pre or post resurrection? TY again for sharing your knowledge!
Rev 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. I think this points to a post resurrection appearance. Most scriptures put judgment after resurrection.
So when in the process will those under covenant be required to pass by the angels and sentinels providing the tokens, signs and names to enable them to enter the Father’s presence?
Hi...me again. I really love the podcast but I'm still having trouble connecting the idea of Jesus as advocate for all.... does that include the unrepentant? Hows that work? If the atonement brought us all back into God's presence dor the purpose of judgement....Repentance being required to remain there. How does the judgement process described work? Is Jesus only advocating for those who repented and chose to STAY in God's presence? Can we say that He absolutely does not advocate for the unrepentant at judgment? Because I assume no one is speaking on their behalf even though all are brought to stand in God's presence. I feel like there's some holes remaining here.
Bryce here. I will let Mike answer for himself. We have to stop considering the telestial kingdom as a place where unrepentant evil people go. You do not receive a kingdom of glory as a punishment for doing something bad. That would be a contradiction in terms. Those who go to the Telestial kingdom are rewarded with a kingdom of glory for having done something good. And that good is accepting the atonement. Some level of repentance. Let’s walk through the path of the unrepentant when they die. First, they go to Spirit prison to pay for their sins. The deal was simple: repent and Jesus pays for your sins or don’t repent, and you pay for your sins. Since they didn’t repent, they must pay for their own sins. “I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I” (D&C 19:16-17). But there is a door out of spirit prison. All they have to do is repent. Elder James E Talmage taught powerfully at the churches Centennial in 1930: “To hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. Hell is no place to which a vindictive judge sends prisoners to suffer and to be punished principally for his glory; but it is a place prepared for the teaching, the disciplining of those who failed to learn here upon the earth what they should have learned… but this does not mean that the individual sufferer or sinner is to be eternally and everlastingly made to endure and suffer. No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better. When he reaches that stage the prison doors will open and there will be rejoicing among the hosts who welcome him into a better state” (James E. Talmage, CR Apr. 1930, 97). Now, there will be some that still do not repent, even though they are suffering for their own sins. Those are the sons of perdition who will leave spirit prison in the spirit world and go to outer darkness for eternity. Now, we learn a great lesson about Telestial people by studying what the sons of perdition would not do when they were suffering in spirit prison. Listen carefully from D&C 88: After the celestial are resurrected in verse 29 and then terrestrial in verse 30 and then telestial in verse 31. Those who would be left in the spirit world would be the sons of perdition who came to earth and received a body and qualify for resurrection. Probably only a handful of them. Verse 32 says of them: “And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.” So what is it that they (the sons of perdition) would not receive? Well, verse 33 makes it pretty clear: “For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” Clearly, the giver is the savior and the gift is his atoning sacrifice. So the sons of perdition would not receive the savior nor his sacrifice. But what does that verse suggest of Telestial people? Doesn’t that seem clear that the Telestial people, on their way to the telestial kingdom of glory, repented of their sins; at least enough to get out of spirit prison? Therefore, the way to receive a kingdom of glory, even a telestial kingdom of glory, is to repent and accept Jesus to some degree. I don’t know what that degree is. Clearly it’s not the fullness with which celestial people repent, and accept Jesus, nor the terrestrial people. But that verse seems to suggest that the telestial people accept Jesus, repent to some degree, are freed from suffering, and are granted entrance into a kingdom of glory. That would require HIM as their advocate. He advocates for anyone who receives a kingdom of glory. Maybe that’s another interpretation of 2 Ne 9:8-9, which states that without Christ, we would all be sons of perdition. Suggesting that he redeems, even those who receive a telestial glory. That concept is confirmed in D&C 76, which talks about the degrees of glory. It says that the sons of perdition are “the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.” (D&C 76:37-38). Notice that phrase: “after the sufferings of his wrath”? That would be that spirit prison suffering that they got out of by repenting. But that phrase also suggests that telestial people were redeemed. Redeemed into a kingdom of glory by a savior. An advocate.
I don’t understand how what you’ve said about the Atonement and spiritual death could be considered false doctrine, especially since that’s what the missionaries are currently teaching. I’m a little confused!
40:58 I think what Bryce was referring to is that some people say that the wicked (or those who have not repented) will not be brought back into the presence of God. But everyone who lived on this earth WILL, according to Helaman 14:15-18. Then each person will CHOOSE whether to STAY in the presence of God. I think he wanted to point out the difference between never being brought back to the presence of God and not staying in the presence of God. At least that's how I heard/ interpreted it.
It is often taught in the church that the the atonement of Christ overcomes two obstacles: sin and death. All of us acknowledge that EVERYONE will overcome the obstacle of death and be resurrected. However, often people teach that in order to overcome spiritual death, you must repent. Suggesting that those who don’t repent, will not overcome spiritual death. That is false. Every single human being will overcome spiritual death in the sense that they are brought back into the father‘s presents. Which is the very definition of spiritual death. The atonement of Christ brings every single soul back into the presence of the father, to be judged. Thus His atonement overcomes completely and 100% spiritual death and physical death. Not everyone will STAY in the father‘s presence. But everyone will overcome spiritual death and be brought back into the father‘s presence. Therefore, when we teach that spiritual death is only overcome if we repent, we are teaching a falsehood and suggesting that the atonement was not 100% victorious.
I’m confused too. I’m trying to wrap my brain around this and also the notion that Satan was not cast out, when I clearly heard that he was “cast out for rebellion” in the temple, just today.
@@talkingscriptureMormon 9: 12-14 seems to touch on a similar theme. Can you share any other scriptures that support this train of thought? Mosiah 26:12-26 seems to suggest (vs 25-26) that there will be some who “would not be redeemed”. However, these are already standing before God, so in this cases such as this, are you suggesting that these spirits are already redeemed and have no sin, otherwise they couldn’t stand in the presence of the Father? 12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. 13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death. 14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.
I love your guys podcast, but really would like some clarification, because it sounded like you guys are reaching "borh again" Christian doctrine. Simply believe in the Savior and you are saved. We have scripture after scripture from the Old testament, New testament, book of Mormon and doctrine covenants that teaches, we must repent, that no unclean thing can stand before God, that the Angels in heaven will record our good and bad doings. We have been told about our judgment in the gospel and in the restored gospel. I don't see how there's any way the atonement can force us back into God's presence, when it says over and over and over again that nothing can stand before God that is dirty. Yes, the atonement is for all, all who accept his atonement. The atonement is a gift and if you don't want to use it, that's fine, but repentance must be done. I could list 20 Scriptures from does that say this. We are constantly told we will be cast out . I do believe that there are people who will not choose exaltation but will still be in the celestial Kingdom. Christ atonement, that is what saves us and allows us to receive a degree of Glory. But the presence of God, exaltation, that is done through our works. We get a degree of Glory because of the atonement, but what degree of Glory we receive is based on our heart, our desires, our taste, our works, and that is where we are going to get judged. I do think there may be people who are worthy to be exalted, who will not respond that responsibility, and will choose not to have it. Agency is a huge thing, God's not going to force us to be like him and have his same responsibilities if we don't want it, but no everybody is not worthy to stand before God. That's really clear in the scriptures. Moses couldn't even wear shoes when talking to a burning bush because of worthiness and sacredness. Mortals have to be transfigured to be able to stand his presence. We cannot be unclean in front of God. Thus, we have to repent . If you go anywhere on the LDS website, any manual, read the scriptures. It tells you what you need to do to truly repent. And if people have not truly repented, they are not clean before God.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to, but I think you are mistaking our comments on being brought back into the presence of the father and STAYING in the presence of the father. Those are very different. Everyone will be brought back into the presence of the father to be judged. Thus the atonement overcomes spiritual death. But not everyone will stay in the presence of the father. That is what we refer to as the second death. There is a major difference between coming back into the presence of the father to be judged and remaining in the presence of the father.
I had to go back and read verse 18 because Bryce's statement that everyone is brought back into the presence Father is misleading without mentioning repentance. Bryce said that is false doctrine. But it's right there in the scripture. Samuel says it's in condition of repentance..not just our choice to leave. Now maybe not repenting is our choice not to stay but it's not what was said. You're flat out stating that repentance is false doctrine and not required to remain in the presence of God 😢. That's a misinterpretation of verse 18. In my humble opinion.
You are combining two separate things. Repentance is required to STAY in the Father‘s presence. But all will come into the Father‘s presence. That’s what verse 17 is talking about. Verse 18 is referring to those who STAY in his presence after they have initially come into his presence. That is the great confusion. There is no question that repentance is essential. But make no mistake: all people, whether they repent or not will come into his presence to be judged. Every single one of us will come back to his presence. Whether they repented or not. They will stand in front of him to be judged. Now, will they stay in his presence? Only if they repented. And the degree to which they did repent. And that is where the kingdoms is glory come in; after judgement, after initially appearing in front of the Father to be judged. Notice the word “again,” in verse 18, “there cometh upon them AGAIN a spiritual death, yea, a second death.” Why would they die spiritually AGAIN? That’s because the first spiritual death has been overcome by coming back into his presence. Now, because of sin and transgression and lack of repentance, they die again, a second spiritual death. Timestamp: (39:51) The Atonement of Christ overcomes both death and sin. All overcome spiritual death by being brought back into the Father’s presence at the resurrection. Only those who repent and receive Christ remain in his presence.
@talkingscripture Thanks for the reply, it confirms what I thought was being conveyed. Just a few words were missing that confused not only me but others as well according to some comments here. I agree with this clarification.
