I live 55 minutes from the Oakland temple and on a Saturday morning it can take up to 2 hours. On a rainy dark winter Friday night I’ve spent 3 hours trying to take youth to the temple. I think 30 minutes isn’t a danger or a hardship.
I live in Northern Indiana. The two closest temples are in Chicago and Indianapolis. Both temples are about 2.5 hours away (without taking traffic into consideration). The good news is that I don't have to make either drive anymore since I have no desire to attend the temple. Problem solved!
Why would the church sue when it still has an option given it by the city council, i.e., they can resubmit. Until they have been turned down with prejudice the door is still open.
During the 1940's and 50's, and living in Ogden, Utah, our closest temple was Salt Lake. My parents seem ed to go to the temple infrequently, maybe once every two or three years. as far as I remember now. My parents didn't own temple clothing. Maybe that is why they rented out the clothing at the temple. Members went so infrequently that there was no reason to own the temple out fit. I left the church eight years ago, and I barely recognize it today as the one I left in 2016.
I participated in Murph's active member Fairview panel. I would like to thank Mormonish for the accurate bell tower reporting and for providing the Kolby Reddish podcast. I argued that Fairview would be discriminating against the Methodists if they approved the 173' temple. Also, I described the difficulty the church faces in meeting the 5th circuit substantiated burden precedent. I became a Fairview supporter after listening to the two town hearings because I heard both sides of the argument. The church doesn't have the right to supercede the town's values and ordinances in the name of it's far fetched 1st amendment argument. Lastly, Fairview's leaders have been respectful and fair while the LDS leaders have been disrespectful and resorting to intimidation tactics. I am a very disappointed active member.
The church needs more people just like you who are willing to hear and weigh both sides of an argument and then make their own decision and not just fall blindly in line and do what they are told without any investigation of their own! Thanks for your comment!
Except for the fact that the Fairview Municipal Council granted the Creekwood United Methodist Church a variance to construct a 154-foot steeple. Your argument fails to explain how the LDS Church is being "disrespectful" or "intimidating." True disrespect would involve breaking ground and building without obtaining the necessary permits. In this case, the Church has only petitioned the Municipal Council. If their request is denied, pursuing legal action in court would be the appropriate course, rather than commencing construction without approval. If the Fairview municipality's decisions can withstand scrutiny, where then is the injustice?
@TaiPHoo Fairview approved the conditional use permit (CUP) for the location and footprint. The approval for the 154' bell tower was contingent on meeting the conditions specified in the CUP. The Methodist Church didn't meet the conditions, so the town council didn't approve the bell tower. The Methodist have a 51' spire. Please search for the city of Fairview Memorandum August 1 2017 for proof of the denial.
@mormonishpodcast1036 The First Presidency claimed that the location and all aspects of the temple's design is a revelation from the Lord. The commitment to obedience to God and church authority became a vice in this case because of the self-centered focus on being committed to the divine despite ignoring the concerns of people who don't share the faith. The sad thing is that we would have attracted people to the temple if we worked for a common solution. Now, we repelled people because the church wants to run them over A true demonstration of blind obedience.
Mormons that I grew up among were often xenophobic and paranoid as a result of their distrust of non-Mormons. I saddens me to see that spirit among my cultural brothers and sisters is still alive.
Ridiculous. It took a day and a half to get to the temple when I was a kid. Even with the recent frenzy of temple construction, the nearest one is still 3 hours away today.
There was a time (most of the 20th century) when going to the temple was a kind of special event, like a sacred pilgrimage...just due to the fact that they weren't popping up everywhere like fast-food franchises. Nowadays, for most Mormons it's really no more special than a trip to Booger King, Pizza Butt or Taco Smell...and half as fun. Instead of heavily marketed tasty junk food, you just get heavily marketed junk rituals.
It is like a young child at dinner time, at a table full of wholesome food, screaming for a particular brand name orange popsicle--and that is all they can eats or they will starve. And when the parents rightfully do not give in to such childish demands, the child calls DCF wailing he is being abused, neglected, and starved by his cruel parents.
I think members without a temple within 20 minutes of them should start suing the Church because of the substantial burden on them to be able to practice their religion. For the Church to have means to build temples and not put them within easy reach of each member is negligent and oppressive, especially when temple attendance is so strongly encouraged, and the key to salvation for them and their dead.
If the church was planning on going the amicus curiae route they've gotta be pretty upset at this pitiful argument about distance 😂. Great work as always y'all!! :)
I live in Berlin. It takes at least 3 hours to the Freiberg Temple... next to us 😅... Thank you so much for all the work you do to keep us informed about what's going on in the Mormon Bubble! I Ieft the Church one year ago after being All in for 50 years (age 70!) and I'm so glad I made this decision and never ever want to go back to Mormonism again!! The more I actually learn from all of you guys the happier I am living here in Good Old Europe...
The town is not refusing to grant a permit to build a temple. They are simply following zoning laws in restricting the HEIGHT of the steeple of said temple. ABSURD. Entirely a red herring. No one's religious rights are being limited. Where in the LDS doctrine or scripture does it require temples to have a certain height steeple or built in a residential are? Rhetorical question. So absurd, all of it. Show me the doctrine that requires a certain height for the steeple--and then build it in the town outside the residential area! LDS church is so full of itself, wants to feel persecuted (what a joke), and with all their money is such bullies.
Keep in mind, the City of Fairview denied without prejudice. The (SC) Church can modify their plans and resubmit. A substantial burden and hardship has been placed on the City - not the church.
If the plaintiffs are complaining about a distance burden, could one find out how often they actually go to a temple... or how often they drive to Dallas v. drive to Fairview? If they drive to Dallas every day for work, it's wouldn't be a burden.
Mormon history makes it clear that an actual temple is not even required for the purpose of performing the "temple" ordinances. There were periods of time in both Nauvoo and Utah where the ordinances were performed in other buildings before the completion of the temple. There is no reason why they couldn't set aside or build an appropriate space in each Stake Center for the ordinances. All you need is a room...and possibly a dedicated baptismal font. All of the "problems" are of the Church's own creation and stubborn insistence on fraudulently making these extravagant buildings into exclusive places where exaltation and family sealings are being sold to the members.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N actually no, if one who possesses intelligence studied the history of the Church they’d quickly find that Vicarious Endowments could only be performed in the Temple. The Red Brick store and the Endowment House were only used for living endowments not proxies.
@@Kyle68655 It's an arbitrary distinction that anyone who "possesses intelligence" should be able to recognize. If the exact same ordinances can be performed for the living in a given space, why wouldn't the exact same ordinances for the dead (i.e. the "vicarious endowments" whereby living people are used as voodoo dolls to transfer ordinances to disembodied spirits) be performed in the same space? It's just more Simon Says nonsense. It's just another case of the leaders creating "problems" that can only be solved by a "solution" that otherwise would be unnecessary for anything. If next week they announced that temple ordinances for the dead can be conducted in special stake center annexes, people like you will be claiming that nothing important was changed, just the procedures and processes and policies.
@@Kyle68655 Just more hilarious "Simon Says" nonsense. It's an arbitrary distinction that anyone who "possesses intelligence" should be able to recognize. There's no reason why the exact same ordinances that can be performed for the living in a given space, cannot also be performed for the dead (i.e. the "vicarious endowments" whereby living people are used as voodoo dolls to transfer ordinances to disembodied spirits) in that space.
So ridiculous! Can't believe the reasoning in the law suit. Why doesn't the church just meet the zoning laws so they can have their temple in the place they want it? Makes me sick.
How can there be any harm at all? If the persons suing have already taken out their own endowment, then anything else is 100% voluntary and cannot cause harm.
It’s not an inconvenience to them because the temple doesn’t exist yet. It’s an ‘in theory’ convenience to have it closer than the Dallas temple. It’s not as if they have built their life around attending one down the street and now need to change their arrangements. By their logic, they should now be also suing all other towns who are located between their front door and the Dallas temple for not providing a more convenient location. 😂
For years from Louisiana we drove to Washington DC, Then to Atlanta and now from where I live in Mississippi and is almost 2 hours to the temple in Baton Rouge. So I guess I’ve been damaged also. Where do I sign on the Dotted line for my lawsuit lol.
The Texas RFRA law requires you to file the lawsuit within one year of the government action. It also requires you give 60 days notice of intent to sue before filing. The law limits financial penalty to $10,000. The city must pay reasonable attorneys fees if the plaintiff wins.
The argument about not being close to a temple is ludicrous. There are many LDS members that have been driving hours to the Dallas Temple living in small East Texas towns. And yet still no temple any closer for them. Texas has enough temples in the DFW area with Dallas and Fort Worth.
Fairview has ten thousand people including a senor community of two thousand, the average age in Heritage Ranch is 78. Their need should trump a bunch of teenagers who feel endangered driving to church. This elderly community is concerned with maneuvering to their doctors, hospitals., pharmacies. and even their groceries. because their only access to the commercial zone is on Stacy Road. The road is fifty miles an hour because there are fewer people . The state lowers the speed limit as the population increases.
If the church files for relief in Federal Court under RLUIPA they don’t have to give notice of intent to sue before filing. There is no deadline in the act for filing that I see.
1: if they win this burden argument…. What does that mean for other faiths? Do they get to claim that more than ten minutes of transportation time to their places of worship is a considerable burden? 1.5: if being time away from home/other daytime activities is the burden, then the church recently helped relieve that by shortening the temple ceremony. So, they’re good, right? 2: grew up in the salt lake valley. 15-20 minutes away from a few different temples. Still had to drive all the way downtown to the SL temple because that was our assigned temple district. Which, during busier times of day meant traffic made the trip closer to 30 minutes from front door to being parked downtown. Wouldn’t surprise me if the Fairview temple was built, that there would be members assigned to the district that now were expected to drive even further than before to get to their temple. And told it’s a worthy sacrifice.
I'm at least 2 hours from the closest temple(not that I go anymore) but for years we were minimum 3 hours from any temple. 30 minutes is nothing. Especially in the Dallas area.
You should look at LDS employment instructions for "Our Standards of Conduct" wherein you are not to do anything that can be interpreted as retaliation when someone reports a problem.
Two things: I know I’ve said this before but kids typically don’t drive themselves to the temple. It’s usually a youth activity so carpools happen with adult drivers. The other thing I want to point out is that kids will drive themselves 20-30 minutes or more to go to a youth dance or to hang out somewhere with friends. So this dangerous drive thing isn’t the gotcha they think it is
Correct. My students happily drive 45 minutes to go to Chick-Fil-A as soon as school is out for the day. Soon an In and Out Burger will be the same 45 minute drive. It’s 45 minutes to a Costco here. Their argument with this is so sad and ridiculous.
I think the church needs to show data of how many temple holders are going to this temple. I don’t get how rural Texas has enough members to even staff a temple larger than Dallas. I bet most of these members commute to Dallas daily to work, so how is something they attend once a month at the most so inconvenient. After the temple gets built then these members will complain about the substantial burden of having a temple they have to clean and staff. It seems just shortening the endowment will hurt this temple lawsuit as that should open up many slots at the temple. I think the church needs to show data of constantly overflowing temple sessions and the need to add a temple to take the overflow.
My social media is overflowing with posts about the Wichita, KS temple groundbreaking. Any news on the size? I only see 9000 sq ft one story. But if one story is 120 ft tall . . . that's quite misleading. There are two other large churches on the same road, but they are stake center size, not Washington monument size.
I want to add, based on the discussion 40 minutes in about how far and if its a violation of their religious freedom. The articles have specifically said poor WIchita is 180 miles from the Kansas City, MO temple and 150 miles from the Oklahoma City Temple and there are zero temples in Kansas for the 40,000 members.
I suspect the church’s lawyers know they do not have a case here and they don’t plan to pursue it because they’ll lose (BAD for their reputation as people not to mess with). Instead this suit may be simply an attempt (orchestrated by the church’s legal team) to cut their losses in this particular instance by intimidating the town as much as possible (don’t mess with the Mormons!) before moving on to their next case until they find one they can more legitimately take all the way to the Supreme Court in the name of religious discrimination, the real end goal being to get a ruling that gives religion generally and the Mormon church specifically carte blanche to do what they want once and for all. (the SC makeup right now would suggest that the time is right!).
I really hope the city will get a hold of you and use your information. No!! I used to drive to Oakland back in the day and it took 2 hours to get there. So No, 20 minutes. In Sacramento 1 hour to get to Folsom. Ridicules!
In this area there are these stakes: Allen (includes towns of Allen and Fairview), Plano, McKinney, Prosper, and Frisco. There are also nearby stakes in Richardson, Dallas and other areas.
Thank you! You guys are great. I love your ramblings. You are exposing serious corruption. This information has helped me to develop a different lens with which to view my life. You're a great team, and I look forward to your new podcasts. Now I'm running off to subscribe.
The church is probably in the process of modifying the design of the temple right now. They will submit the new plans to the town council as soon as the lawsuit is dismissed. They just want to be able to say they sued the town.
They need to remember that what goes around comes around. They've got some nerve. Now that members are suing for their tithing and they are about to lose their tax exemption for LYING. THIS IS NOT HOW JESUS WORKS.
I think the people in fair view don't understand at all what beauty the temple will bring. There are so many positives about any temples. One day soon, we will all be humbled and be on our knees asking forgiveness because of our ignorance. Satan is good at hardening hearts through out the world. There is alot of hate in this community towards religions. It was sad to hear it. There was only one person who had respect for this church and they weren't apart of it, but they called the rest out. Unless your against peace, I don't understand why so many despise beautiful buildings. I don't care what religion you are
What amazes me is that Mormons do not do Sunday worship or weekly regular worship in the Temple. As a Catholic Sunday and daily Mass and celebrations of Sacraments i.e baptisms confirmations weddings and funerals, etc are all held in the Church and we of course have an intimate relationship with our spires because we see them daisy !!. Not!!!! As a non Morman and having watched this saga, it certainly does not do anything in making Mormanism attractive to someone who may be looking for a new religion. They come across as bullies and fantasists and far, far from the loving thy neighbour ethos. Pity they wouldn't use their vast wealth accumulated from their flock to better use in a time where families are finding it hard to just exist where there is war and poverty and real need. False gods and stubborn dictatorship tactics come to mind. Bless those people in Fairview who were willing to embrace this Temple and their Mormon friends but now are going to be crushed underfoot by a crazy and litigous entity that is far far from godly. I would think that this law suit has the full backing of the Church. CC
Will an answer to the question of how many members of the church have temple recommends be part of the evidence presented in the lawsuit? Inquiring minds want to know. During the Town Hall Meeting, they didn’t know how many members had temple recommends.
I'm wondering if all the lds wanting that temple in Fairview are having a temple recomment. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to go to the temple anyway... Maybe they could sue the church for not letting them practise their religion?
Are we supposed to believe that all the sealings and baptism of the dead and other rites and rituals performed in temples with shorter steeples are null and void, that Heavenly Father will accept only the rites and rituals in a temple with such a high steeple? Absurd. But if so, build it in the town where such a height is allowed by teh zoning laws.
No! No!!! Rebecca, don’t put a 👎🏼temple by my Buc-ee’s! I need to be able to see my big Buc-ee on the building! Their temple would be infringing on my right to worship the world’s best gas station, food ‘supplier’ & convience store. I get more out of my trip to Buc-ee’s than made up religion ‘stuff’ from a charlatan.
I know how big Dallas is, so I believe there are church members in the Dallas temple district that drive more than 1/2 an hour to get to the temple, especially in traffic.
Just like the "McKinney" temple isn't in McKinney, the Fort Worth temple will not be in Fort Worth but instead in the city of Burleson. Fort Worth is 30 miles west of Dallas and the "Burleson" temple will be just south of Fort Worth. Also, "Where the West Begins" is a slogan used by Fort Worth. It's on their police cars.
In the first few minutes of Richard Abernathy's presentation he disclosed that he represented Fairview as their attorney some years ago. He presently represents the school district Lovejoy , which is the Fairview School. He must have felt it was necessary to disclose this info because of the possibility of a conflict of Interest since he would have insider info on how the town works.
LDS certainly loves that empire-state-building-1920ies chique which is hardly surprising. i didn't expect them to show signs of taste or - just imagine - a sense of the times we live in ! placing those monstrosities into the small towns is just the proof of a complete sense of taste. the pharaohs could do that and better for f*cks sake 🙄
Mormonish Podcast: Legal filings in court cases are available and open to the public in many states. I am available to help you if you need assistance.
So these people are moaning about travelling about half an hour then they need to move over here where it takes three hours approx to get to the London temple no brainer ❤
I have to drive an hour and a half to get to our temple (DC). Philly would be about the same distance- however getting into and out of Philly can take hours and you have to pay all these toll roads etc
#triggered. Pluto IS a Planet. It is in a newer class of dwarf planets. It is not a planetoid (ie a partial planet). It is a full planet with different orbital attributes compared to “regular” planets. The solar system has like 13 known planets now!
