A podcast for post and nuanced Mormons seeking a joyful life as they navigate their faith journey outside of orthodox Mormonism. Our podcast features interviews with other post and nuanced Mormons, commentary on current events, scholarly reviews of important historical and doctrinal issues, and more. We appreciate our viewers and listeners so much and look forward to taking this journey with all of you.
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On his time chart, lots of problems. I did not use Aramaic at all, not sure where he gets that. Aramaic was spoken as somewhat of an international common language (Hezekiah is indicated to have spoken it). I don't think he understands that the paleo-Hebrew script was used in the Levant, and hieratic Egyptian is used there as well (called Palestinian hieratic). Also his time frame for Biblical Hebrew is not correct, most generally accept that Biblical Hebrew in some form was utilized for 1000 BC to 400 CE. Judah did not have their own number system pre-exile but just used Egyptian hieratic except for some calendrical numbering. Also I didn't use Olmec script, I used a few comparisons to Epi-Olmec forms (Epi-Olmec are not Olmec, I'm guessing he isn't too familiar with Mesoamerican groups and history) where the Epi-Olmec runs from 300 BCE to roughly 250 CE. There is a chart in the book that shows the time period from Egyptian where each character form is found. They are all consistent with the time period in question and the earlier records that they had available to them. As far as Demotic, it started in the Egyptian delta area, but was used all over Egypt by the 5th Century BC. Judah was allied with Egypt and there is a lot of evidence of trade between the groups. In fact, that is why Jerusalem was destroyed, it was because of alliance with neighboring Egypt. Egypt sent an army to save Jerusalem, but were defeated by the Babylonians. As the Lehites looked to be merchants, especially with regards to the trading of metals, not unusual that they had a working knowledge of Demotic. Also I don't think he understands that scripts change through time with borrowing occurring also with script being lost or shortened at times. (English has lost the letters ash, edh, thorn, ethyl, wyn, and yogh for example). The reformed Egyptian script also follows Ziph's law of linguistics which is that generally script is simplified through time (that's why thinking that it should be 100 percent exactly the same as 600 BC Egyptian would actually be a violation of rules of historic linguistics. I really don't think the expert who supposedly reviewed this has any understanding of historical linguistics and the evolution of scripts. The number system also follows all the rules seen in the historic evolution of numeric systems. Anyway, that is why I wrote the book so that people could just read it instead of me spending my time commenting on videos. All of the answers to his questions are already in the book tbh.
Thanks, my friends for such an informing presentation! You know I have read the Book of Mormon in English, Spanish, Portuguese, French, and half way in Italian. Sadly for me, the book was still poorly written. I would not recommend it to anyone for his or her reading pleasure. I have attended three community colleges, five Universities, including five graduate schools, and still the book often has left me confused. Did I mention that I know how tie my shoes, drink from a glass, write cursive, ride a bike and a horse, milk a cow and a goat, . swim on my back and side; so I have some academic and life experiences. To add to all that, I have lived in three counties, visited fifteen, and put foot down on four continents. You'd think I should have been a better reader.
Why would you expect to better understand the BoM by reading it in Romance languages? Shouldn’t you learn grammar from Semitic languages? And be studying culture? And be reading about ancient peoples?
I loved Trent’s comments about faith. Couldn’t agree more as that’s exactly what I experienced as well. It’s the reason my deconstruction involved going back to studying epistemology and critical thinking. Great episode!
I certainly would like to see the actual analysis of the Egyptologist. Since my material has already been reviewed by Egyptologists, it would be interesting to see what she says exactly. Why did she choose to remain anonymous? That is a bit strange to say the least for someone in academia. Anyway, Rebecca, if you would like to send that to me send me an email through my website and I will provide you my direct email so you can forward it to me. I accept all input and it is only academically fair to provide me to the opportunity to respond to the comments from individual.
Do I understand correctly that you have zero formal education or expertise in the translation of languages? Why does it matter what her name is--can you not simply respond to her criticism as it's been read?
@@reddish22 You are incorrect. I have worked 30 years as a translator. I have fluency in multiple languages, and studied multiple languages overseas in formal translation programs including Chinese (I was actually on the Dating Game show there speaking Chinese LOL). As far as responding to critiques of the translation, it would be helpful to see what was actually asked and what her response was. It seems a bit strange as she is apparently talking about topics that are not discussed in my book. Seems like she must be responding to a set of questions or something. Also, it doesn't seem like she is very competent in hieratic Egyptian tbh. For example she doesn't seem very knowledgeable about Egyptian as she indicates that ancient Egyptian has no logographic elements. Ancient Egyptian is considered by all competent translators as partially logographic and partially phonetic. Phonetic words can also be shortened to one glyph in context (ie nfr) essentially rendering those words logographic. My translation does have multi glyph words from Egyptian and phonetic elements which are discussed in great detail. It does appear to be more logographic than standard papyrus media Egyptian, but that may be a result of the media that was used for the script. In Mesoamerica there do appear to be scripts that are postulated as logographic (Teotihuacan) so it would make sense that a script changing over 1000 years in Mesoamerica might become more logographic. Also she only read to page 26 (that's where the translation of glyphs starts and where she stopped reading) of a book of 400 plus pages. Pretty hard to review a book that you don't read I would think. You may not be familiar with academic writing, but one can't really cite anonymous verbal comments on a podcast as a source, so makes any formal academic published response impossible.
@@jerrygrover8992 Small question. How did you get expertise in geology sufficient to make a meaningful case for a volcanic event in 3 Nephi 8 AND have 30 years of experience as a translator? Seems like very different skillsets.
Jerry can you please send us the peer reviews from the Egyptologists that you reference. I will send you our professor friends critique of your book. No she was not responding to questions I sent her a copy of your book. She wants to remain anynomous because no serious Egyptollogists dives into arguments about a language that does not exist and is not acknowledge by any scholars. It took us a long time to convince her that anyone seriously believed it was real so we would love to see what Egyptologists have peer reviewed your book.
@@perryekimae I have a BS degree in Geological Engineering and am I licensed Professional Geologist (which requires a certain number of years of work experience). I worked doing precious metals exploration as a geologist in the western United States and have owned mining properties (and still own some). After settling down with my family, my work as a geologist was limited essentially to project work from time to time as well as exploration of properties I owned (sometimes with large mining companies such as Newmont in joint ventures) and geologic work tangential to my civil engineering work (I am also a Licensed Professional Structural Civil Engineer). I started professional translating in my early 20's and it has not generally been full-time all the time. I am in my early 60's so I could technically say I have been translating for 40 years, but the translation work has come and gone so I would say that I have 30 years experience plus or minus, I also had my own international business where I did internal translation for my own company. In any event, the translation here I have rendered does not really require much experience in translation to see what is going on if one takes the time to read the whole book, as I reference all of the academic source material directly. I think part of the reason Trent is having difficulty is it is apparent he hasn't read the whole book, and his specialty is Computational Linguistics which may or may not have anything to do with foreign languages, and it looks like he has worked in web development, not translation. I'm not sure if he is fluent in any other languages, his Linked-In doesn't mention it. Many linguists do not know multiple languages, and translation doesn't necessarily have much to do with linguistics. I know he has created some fake Star Trek languages (of which I am a fan btw) , but that is quite different than being an translator of real languages. In this case, it is also helpful to be versed in historical linguistics, which explains the expected shifts over time in script as well as numerical notation. I also understand as an ex-Mormon he indicates that he did not have a good experience and can respect that. I'm not really an apologist, I don't defend every foible of the LDS Church. I am open to listening and understanding new truth from other faiths and those with no faith. I don't think the LDS Church has a license on all truth. I just like to do research on the Book of Mormon and other things in my free time, and just present my research for free for those that want to read it. If they don't like it or don't agree, I'm OK with that. I usually just ask that before critiquing my work that the person actually read all of the book and then be specific in their critique which gives me the ability to respond and explain if necessary. That's all.
@@jerrygrover8992 From her perspective, I can only imagine that the book coming to her looks like 426 pages of tin foil hat pseudoscholarship. She gave you up to 25 pages to demonstrate otherwise. Not saying you're wrong or bad or anything for putting forward your case, but asking people to engage with 426 pages of material is not an insignificant ask in this, the only life we know we've got. For what it's worth, it may be revisiting those passages that triggered the expert's dismissal of your book so that future reviewers may take it more seriously. LOLing that critique does nothing to help you.
@@reddish22 The demotic only appears to be used when the glyph form is shorter than hieratic. So it is consistent with the statement that reformed Egyptian is a compact script. This is all discussed at length in the book. You might want to take a look at it as it is free to download, and there are no ads you will be forced to look at.
Actually I paid perfect attention to the time frames. The document is primarily hieratic with some demotic. Would be helpful if he actually read the book. It is not a paper for one thing. Coe did not decipher the numerical system of the Maya, you don't know what you are talking about. That was figured out long before Coe. I'm sorry, this presentation is not well researched or thought out.
So like Scientology and LDS are both building temples (different names same idea) that they don't have the members to support to give the impression they are getting bigger while they are actually shrinking. How bizarre.
I have so many blessings from LDS/Mormon missionaries and church members that really works and come true. The blessings actually works also with faith with that person. True. I even saw spiritual beings in LDS/Mormon Temple in Manhattan. And HE healed me inside the Temple that nobody could heal me from a car accident injury. Our church is perfect. What is not perfect is human beings. Miracles work on faith also on that person. There are also archaeologist proof showing The Book of Mormon evidence is found. Check out yourself first before you criticize about LDS/Mormon. We are Christian. Our church has The Bible and The Book of Mormon. That is why our spirit is very strong. For example, you go to Yale College, then you don't have a good school grade, then you said Yale College is bad. But then there are many students who studied at the same college have good grades........
I have resources that show they had no idea I cNt believe that the prophet was totally out of touch when building the layton temple to my knowledge it still hasn't open. Because of the jet rattling the windows.
We were the only state in the west utah that slavery was legal. In Sandra Tanner book they talk about it and show references. The other mormon church believed as Joseph Smith he baptisized and gave free black men the preschool. They also reference the sources.
I hope there is a class action that includes pretty much everyone. We tithed thousands when we could have used the money for groceries, medical bills and car repairs. We thought we were helping others less fortunate than ourselves. It makes no sense that we had to go to the Bishop for help with food, yet to get help we had to continue to pay tithing when we could have used that tithe money for food.
So agree! Mormonish did an episode a few months ago with a financial planner/accountant who explained the titthing trap that leaves families devastated and church welfare is not a viable solution. It has to stop!
I had a Twinkie eater friend and they lost their teeth before they were 20, but I think that was more of their gag reflex and not being able to brush there teeth properly
So fucking proud of Makenzie Vance. Don’t let them get away with this type of behavior. And don’t let them bully you into silence. Thank you guys for the reporting. Excellent work as always
Not sure why you have this on various streams. It hurts numbers by diversifying... I always choose the Mormonish Podcast feed, though I completely respect RFM and Bill Reel.
It's tricky. We all put equal time into the broadcast which is why we stream it on both Mormonism Live and Mormonish. One thought might be to trade off but that can confuse viewers. Our monetization is based on how many people view th episode, of course, and since we all work equally on the content and presentation, this is what we came up with so far. Thanks so much for watching wherever you watch!
Thank you so much for bringing up the numbers discrepancy with the single adults topic. I feel like this is a huge cultural topic, that isn't talked about and is wreaking havoc on so many lives.
Agreed. I remember a YSA ward conference where leadership pointed out the same ratio of women to men in our wards. And basically told the women they’d have to come to terms with the fact that they’d likely stay single and had to stay faithful for their eternal marriage in the afterlife. It was not a very uplifting experience for a lot of us.
Completely agree! A few years ago the stat was reported that 51 percent of women were single in the church, widowed, divorced, never married. They need to stop pretending that the Leave it to Beaver family is reality in the church.
Born in 1951 in California. Mother the head of a high school English department. I've always heard and used foy-YAY. I giggled the first time I heard foy-yer. Re the big push on building temples. They have to show they are using a certain percentage of their income for charitable or religious purposes to maintain their IRS exemption. I think that's the real incentive -- not parking the money from lawsuits. Scientology uses the same strategy and has many vacant buildings.
this is not a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints station. these are disgruntled former members. The Church that they are condemning does not go by Mormon. Those who leave the Church for some reason can’t leave it alone. They have hit a new low by giving this foul mouth the attention sho obviously enjoys. Not saying this didn’t happen, but what does it have to do with the Church that they can’t leave alone!
It's news involving a man who is a member of a church that proclaims moral superiority. Similarly, we see news stories when a man is arrested for driving under the influence, and it turns out the alleged drunk driver is a judge. People are interested in these details.
As I discussed this story with 7 post Mormon women before the show, we all shared experiences where men touched us inappropriately at church. All of us have each been members of the church for five or six decades. It’s an important broader topic that needs more attention. Thank you for watching!
@@philclegg8169 Exactly. My great greats said Mormon. My greats said Mormon, My grands said Mormon, My parents said Mormon, I said Mormon and suddenly it is a win for Satan? Puh--leeez.
I backpacked Europe with 25 pounds on my back. that was the max I allowed myself. You can't fit much in 25 pounds, let me tell you. I was doing laundry on the road for sure. It's kind of wild I had no idea how little they were allowed to bring.
Non-Mormon here. I remember when I was 22 years old and driving down to DC from Philadelphia. This was in 1981. I was driving around the I-495 beltway and I began seeing this large bright white edifice with gold spikes "rising" out of the trees as I got closer. I had no idea what it was and just kept looking at it as much as the traffic would let me. I later found out that it was the Mormon temple. Yes, they do indeed put these temples where they want them to be seen. It's not for "the Lord" but for public relations -- and $$$$.
Haha! Sometimes we do an episode where we just chat as friends informally. Even informally, Dr. John is one of the most brilliant people I know! His Bigfoot analysis was fabulous!
Agreed! The amazing pioneers made the best of the situation they were put in by the church leaders. It's absolutely incredible what they were able to survive being put in that situation.
How funny, I just got an email complimenting us on our banter. Haha! Everyone is different, that's for sure! I'm glad there are so many options in the community for everyone's taste. I'm trying to think of channels with co hosts and guests where there is less banter. Probably try Mormon Stories, it's often more serious. Although I do banter when I'm on MS. Also Mormonism Live has banter but not all the time. I add banter when I'm on ML. Hope you can find the balance you like!
🎵"For some must push, and some must pull, As we go marching up the hill, So merrily on our way we go, Until we reach the valley-o!" 🎶 Remember that Primary song? Lol, they made it seem so enjoyable and positive. In reality, how some of them suffered! 😢I left the Church at age 22, after researching many aspects. That was decades ago. Thank heavens I never had to go on Trek! (Girls' Camp was bad enough, for me.) Trek wasn't a "thing" went I was a teenager in the Church. I'm not sure when they started that.
