Eric Higgins - Ammolytics | #81 

Wow this is such a good lesson not only for shooting but for life in general . It’s a process !

There's some interferometeric options here. Add to whether it exists, some basic CAD software simulations showed me it's pretty likely a combination of lateral and longitudinal jiggles. There's also probably harmonics on the gas column as it expands. My suspicion for optimal barrel time has more to do with the power/gas column than the barrel.

Truly a wealth of knowledge. Very interesting and well explained. 🐕

Thanks for the opportunity and thoughtful discussion, Erik. I'm very grateful!

To follow up on my previouse comment @ 1:09 Eric - you are spot on - the answer is right there in what you said By the way, have a background in Acoustics

Thank you for the knowledge

I think we can all agree that the barrel moves as a result of the explosion in the chamber. Useful information would be knowing the frequency of the barrel when achieving precision An oscilloscope seems more useful than a camera.

If the barrel is not whipping/oscillating prior to the projectile leaving the barrel then how can .on certain occasions a heavier projectile traveling much slower from one load, group significantly higher on target than a much lighter projectile moving much faster? From my experience this is more pronounced on light contour free floated barrels.

I'd be very interested to see if barrel harmonics are a real thing. I personally doubt it. Even if you did get minor vibrations in your barrel, I find the idea that changing your powder charge, seating depth, etc., would allow you to have the bullet exit "at the top of the sine wave", as it were, to be ludicrous. These vibrations (if they exist) are probably so fast there is no way the exit timing would be precise enough, especially when you consider that the muzzle velocity varies from shot to shot. I personally think that most of what is standard practice in reloading is pretty much as useful as sprinkling chicken blood on your rifle. Most people test their loads with single 3 or 5-shot groups and there's just no way that will tell you if there's a statistically significant difference between loads. You might as well pick quality bullets, brass, primers, and powder, base your powder charge on the velocity you want and shoot. The major factors will be the bullet and powder.

I figured out a while back, no matter how precise my rifle and ammo is, the variables I put into the process are far more influential than anything else.

Either "Taufledermouse" and/or "Mark and Sam After Work" have high speed video of the muzzle moving prior to the projectile exiting. You may be able to estimate a quantity from analyzing the video, but more scientific analysis of the movement would have to be done to get definitive answers.

i think all this analyzing of everything is a waste of time...way too many variables to do any sound science.... He's not even figuring for CG offset of the bullet. Way too much speculation on what caused what. you just find a load that shoots consistently good in your gun and call it a day. although I appreciate his tenacity.

Hi Erik; fascinating as always. Have you ever had John Myers on your Podcast? I could not find it. Any plans to do so? Or is he too secretive? I would think that there is a lot he could contribute in addition to the tuner tuning.

Yes, sensors are one dimensional, a camera is two dimensional, but you need three dimensional data. Perhaps two cameras (horizontal and vertical plane) will be close to three dimensional. Additionally, you need piezo pressure set up so you can factor in the variance of the propellant burn, and you need to be able to measure from firing pin strike to bullet exit, and that has to be synchronous, not asynchronous.

Yet again Erik, keep up with the interviews, we all appreciate it greatly. Finally just getting time to watch this one!

If you float a thin barrel, the dollar bill method, you will get flyers on occasion because it moves enough to touch the stock, due to harmonics with certain loads. The barrel is moving before the bullet leaves the muzzle. When the pin strikes the primer, a bomb is going off and something is going to give and steel is elastic

If your barrel moves 1/16 of an inch off target, the bullet impact at 100 yards will be approximately 1 inch away from the intended point. Which would mean your MOA would be 2" because it can move up or down. Therefore if your gun shoots like a laser beam and your barrel can move 0.0078125" in both directions you will have 1/4" MOA. I think Higgins is right when he says a look at yourself is worthy. (It can be the software). Obviously harmonics can make a barrel move that much too! It would be cool to see both of you on Smarter Everyday channel. He has highspeed cameras and there is so much education in this topic.

There are a couple of problems with single event calculations like OBT. 1. The pulse width developed by the burn of the propellant is wide compared to the total time the bullet is in the rifle barrel, yet the theory is developed around the pulse being instantaneous (several micro seconds vs 1 micro second). Therefore the pulse arrival at the muzzle is occurring over a relatively long time, so there would be a relatively wide node window even after several reflections. Then if the pulse generated went forward, then there is a pulse that went backward to be reflected forward that will arrive at the muzzle later at a lower level and perhaps out of phase. This would cause additive/substractive pulse mixing which will muddy the waters. This may explain why some shooters find the best accuracy in between OBT nodes. 2. Everyone assumes the pulse generated travels at the speed of sound in the steel involved, but the pulse is a shockwave that travels faster than sound. If you have ever been subjected to an artillery barrage that landed outside of lethal range you would know the shockwave is felt before you hear the sound of the blast. This was reported in the Trinity Test and by survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

And Erick said “everyone complicates the reloading process” HOLY SHYT..!!! So much complicated stuff on process of reloading from more than 4 of his people he’s interviewed, even Erick made is complicated…!! 🙄

I think Bill Calfee who built some of the most accurate 22RF benchrest rifles experimented and proved that barrel harmonics were present by suspending the barrels like a plumb bob then tapping them until he achieved a certain bell sound at which point he would cut that barrel to that length. He published a whole series of write ups of his many experiments in Precision Rifle Magazine sadly closed down many years ago. Editor Brennan had a whole range of contributors right across the shooting spectrum of accuracy. Some years ago, I started using simple rubber doughnuts made by Limb Savers and by moving them along my various barrels in a variety of calibers I was able to improve grouping capability. I also believe that Richard Uttings, here in the U.K., also found them to be a useful aid on occasion.

I think pro shooters are so used to their own minds that they ae so good at various distance that most of the time, they all do it they forget the basic marksmanship rules. Breathering trigger pull, shoulder seating position and most importantly the eye relief? As a example, the weapons in FTR shooting i was given a chance to shoot those weapon systems, which i had no idea at the time, i thought it was just hunting rifles and practicing etc, Till i was given a chance to shoot the ftr 308 and a ftr class weapon in 2019 /2020, first time round my score awas 38/50 2nd time with a 5.56 ammo i scored a 48.5 /50 and i even told my spotter that 2 of my shots were pulled to the right and sure enough the target on the IPAD showed it i pulled it to the right. Also i do not hold a shooters / gun licence, the last time i even shot a weapon as when i was in the cadets at the age of 14, thats over 50 years ago and its proof positive that those ftr weapons are a master class of shooting a cd size disc at over 1,200 yards. So what i was taught while in the cadets shooting the SLR L1A1 308 at 400 meters and my score was 98/100 after 20 rounds. ( also the gas number on the end was set at no 7, so not much recoil, for a 308 thats no bad at all) The ejection of the spent cartridge went at least 20 meters normally its factory set at 4 to 6, Also broke the record for dismantling the slr and putting it back together ,less than 1 minute.( the trick is to make sure that the gas spring is stopped before it goes flying ) So in closing if the weapon manufactures went to expreames to hide the real facts of their own experiments, then just imagine if someone like Erik Higgins does what the manufactures clearly know, but will not tell the buyers of their weapons after all its all trade secrets its that simple? 🦘🦘👌👌👍👍

All I know is; I work on utility sized steam and gas turbine generators. We control destructive vibration on machines that have more than 10,000 times the mass of a rifle barrel, with "balance shots" that are weighed in grams. Depending on the distance from the center of mass and the degree of the circle, will many times completely cancel a resonant vibration, thereby changing the overall harmonic stability. Basically all rotating mass has "critical speeds" in the start up process, and we have to get those to a minimum, because of the clearances between the rotating parts and the stationary parts. Obviously the machine is balanced to optimum at it's full operation speed (3600)rpm. But it kinda like the same thing you experience with balancing a tire. It behaves differently at 50 mph vs 100 mph. Hence the fact that high performance tires are xrayed and made really true. I don't see any possibility of there not being movement of the barrel when there is a definite vibration induced event. No way bro. You're way off into the weeds 😑

The only real way is to have super sensitive sensors placed at various increments on the barrel with out a tuning end and one with it ,then look at the data and what are the frequencies of the vibrations, plus different metals and barrel manufacturers would have that frequencies, based on normal factory ammo on various calibers? F Class and others FTR F Open etc etc is the Formula 1 of shooting long distances ,so get a advantage over your competitor is the only way forward, but in saying this i believe right hand twist v's left hand twist was a issue f class shooters were testing and they found it to be negligible in long distance, but wait it depends if your shooting in the northern hemisphere or southern, as the the way the gravity works is different for the coriolis effect spin drift issues faced when your in a different part of the world?

I don't believe anything this guy says correlates with rail guns. They have nearly zero influence and at 100 yd very minimal environmental affect wind etc. Changing the load changes point of impact. The barrel is vibrating. AKA harmonics. I can't see it but it's there

In a perfect world you would have no wind ,so a tunnel which does not effect the projectile at all and its all factory ammo, meaning that no matter which brand of ammo what the factory states its velocity and spin rate will be is true to a + or - Value or % and then have each of the barrel harmonics displayed as in what you need to use to get perfect impacts at say 200 to 300 yards or meters with various calibers and all factory ammo and rifles in various calibers. Forget the special order barrels and actions etc etc, the average shooter is not going to that extreme and for those who can afford it and spend over 25K on a weapon system to shoot at over 2 miles go ahead but there will always be a better shooter than you always thats the laws of nature?

Obviously, Eric Higgins is a much more intelligent fellow than I can claim. I do have a question though. If the barrel is NOT moving prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, why can I tune a barrel to the ammunition? Years ago, my father and I bought Model 70s with a BOSS. We decided that when we went West to hunt, we should have identical ammunition so that if something happened we could share ammo. Granted, these are hunting rifles, but we tuned them to shoot sub MOA. Why did the tuners work? For that matter, why does changing the seating depth affect group size? I know for a fact that seating depth does affect group size. Now, if barrels tuners and seating depth work there has to be something those adjustments are doing.

This is by far the best podcast I have seen on this channel

I would think that you could amplify the motion of the barrel by affixing thin and rigid rods/wire to the barrel at various angles and that would be visible at high speed. Someone a lot better at math than I am could probably figure out initial movement based on the amplitude/frequency of the movement at the end of the rods.

I've noted that he's not considering rifle twist rates in his math regarding barrel harmonics, movrments, the powder's burn rate or pressure developed, all of which causes and effects gun movement once that trigger is seqeezed...? I think these are important factors the shooter has or must train himself to control for a hold during shots at the target...?

When we tune a bow we shoot it through paper to see how the fletchings cut through the paper . The same thing is true with the way bullets tear through paper

The late Skip Otto did some studies on barrel vibration, but from a different perspective. He would thread and chamber a barrel and the install it in a jig. He would center a dial indicator on the muzzle while vertical. He would then rotate the barrel into the horizontal and measure the barrel’s droop. He then removed the barrel and flute it. Repeating the measurement process. He told me that the fluted barrel consistently drooped less. I never got into the details of his work on barrel vibration, but, as I recall it, he concluded that the vibrations of the barrel were changed on the fluted barrel to a point where the bullet was less affected by the vibration.

Drink 8 cups of joe before sighting in. 😂

Well all I know now is I am sure hermanic plays some factor but that no one really knows and the one that thinks he knows is not going to tell anyone hmmm ok 👍 got it

I really believe this is overthinking the issues. Even if he can do what he wants, I believe there are too many variables.

How does this channel only have 10k subs? There has to be more people interested in our hobby.

Harmonics is about 75% of it. Get yourself an EC Tuner break. I can take a factory load shooting 2.5 moa and dial it down to sub moa A tuner brake is the best place to go to figure out harmonics. My buddy says I’m cheating. If your not cheating on a 1000 yard shot your not trying hard enough😂. Believe The Target Bro. You’re overthinking it.

Now I’m suffering from analysis paralysis setting in 🤷

I have used the rubber dampers that slide on the barrel for years and seen gropes change sizes. I use the string harmonics that one notices on a stringed interment. When the dampener is placed at 1/2or 1/3 the barrel length as a guitar string is plucked then touched at 1/2 or 1/3 the string frequency goes to twice or with 1/3 one gets 1/3 and 2/3 harmonic. I hope I am presenting this correctly. I suggest talking to a musician to get an accurate explanation of string harmonics. I have seen my group size get smaller when I get the dampener to the "right" place.

Great interview, surely a ton of questions and theories......... I guess it's " tuner magic " .... Thanks for sharing !!

Barrel wrap… pre-heat and maintain temperature thru-out the session

For science testing… to help understand barrel movement or harmonics what does a smooth bore barred do?

I have to cut all caffeine before a match. If I don't, my blood pressure will be up, and ill see it in the scope.

If you were ever to develop a 100% repeatable bullet impact (even 0 MOA groups at 100 yds) many of the competition games would be over, and there would be no point of attending any more F-Class competitions or other bench rest types. Competitions without rests would then show who is the better firearm handler.

I don't like this guy's thoughts

Great interview, I used to do competitive fly casting and this transfers directly and cleanly.

thats 1 smart dude

I think the scientific test would be to build a rifle in a fixed table mount. Then put monitors down the length of the barrel to pick up the sinewave as the rifle is fired. With consistent ammo, I would think the sinewave would be fairly consistent with all other variables removed. it would be an interesting test.

💊 they make em for this

Yep I am still watching - couz the nature of the video, i only watch when i can focus 100% on the info @ 1:06 yes there will be a bend - no doubt, however i disagree with what is being said about barrel tuners Will not share the reason as i have an idea to make a something to take this to the next level - Make no mistake i have a huge reason and explanation Will just add this - flyers are in all directions and barrel tuners correct this the current barrel tuners are briliant, however there is a next level waiting out there Dont take this the wrong way - take my hat off to both of you and i admire both of you and the effort and achivemts Have a lathe and will be making the part myself without having anyone else with my theory or having to explain why i need something made in a certain way once it works, Will then share with the world Currently breaking in my barrel - yes i watched/heard how it is probably a waste of time - once this is done will experiment on my own rifle and the wifes rifle (she is waiting for her license - South Africa) 😁😁😁👍👍👍

This is incredibly interesting WOW - Thanks going to make comments, while i watch, otherwise i will forget what all I want to comment on in My theory, and i dont have access to fancy camera equipment The barrel movement is there before the bullet exits the barrel/muzzle we know the speed of sound through sound we know the speed of sound through water have looked up the speed of sound through different steel materials the sound wave/energy is at the end of the barrel through the metal way way way before that bullet exits the muzzle, hence bullet deviation let me run allong and leave you guys with this now🤣🤣🤣

Great stuff here. Look forward to a follow up.

....this dude with cameras - showing - seeing.....by pictures is logically on to something huge !!......no censors & squiggly lines like he said,.....no shooting thru multiple "thin" papers from near to far to "see" how the bullet sleeps or yaws,....BUT, filming everything to visually see it in action......the way to go. Sierra did this 45-50 years ago with bullet yaw & "sleep" with the best of technology they had available then, although some have tried tried to discredit Sierra with atleast one silly experiment like I mentioned above.....lol....cameras lie least of all, if the film/video is left unedited/unmanipulated, .......understandably. Cool experiments Eric Higgins & Thanks fer sharing.

What about effects caused by manufactured eccentricity inaccuracies in the bore of the barrel? Or effects of eccentricity in the centre of gravity of the bullet? Speakers on the ‘Hornady Manufacturing’ channel suggest that the above are the dominant factors in what is generally interpreted as barrel harmonics, but are in fact forced barrel movements.

Original Whitworth polygonal had no harmonics because the bullet was not wider than the barrel and this means that it was not squeezing barrel metal out. It was a perfect fit, and this is why that rifle was accurate over 1000 yards.

...."new shooters get into this gear stuff thought" - SO TRUE !!!.....it's a "monkey see/monkey do" ...."fad" thing....LMAO...the marketing hype sure helps too.....like tuners - LMAO - cortina even laughs.....all the way to the bank.....lol......this guy Higgins tells shit the way it is.

This is surprisingly straightforward and boils down to "believing the target". In Vaughn's book he shows the vertical movement associated with a ladder test after "removing the effect of gravity due to velocity", that is the drop as determined using a ballistic calculator. The result is a sine wave vs charge weight or velocity. Looking at this in a similar manner for a number of my ladder tests, the periods correspond to the speed of sound as proposed by Chris Long. But this longitudinal vibration becomes vertical transverse vibration at the muzzle which is what you see on the target. And the target shows the amplitude is on the order of 0.003 inches, which you will not see with the eye ! This speed of sound effect is also apparent using a high speed accelerometer, with several cycles prior to the bullet exit. This is why many have found OBT works, but did not believe the muzzle diameter mechanism. Vaughn's target decifering approach clearly defines the critical frequency associated with load development, but for some reason has not been further utilized as far as I can see.

Maybe im over looking something, but why couldnt you just use digital indicators with USB interface and record the measurements of pulses of the muzzle. The high speed cameras might tell you if the barrel does or doesnt move, but indicators would show how much and how long

Barrel times. Find a barrel time about 1.5 to 2.5 grains off max. All my rifles shoot there. Less drama more shooting.

I think the gun moves from the fireing pin drop the trigger brake I think that's a big factor it's moving before the primmer is even hit

More power to him. I’m glad he’s investing his time for this.

Secret method he just learned. Didn’t know before he started selling tuners

You have to walk before you can run and everybody wants to run first.

A strain gauge on the barrel would answer these questions about minute movement

Being a 40 year plus shooter and reloader!! I always see supposed scientific people and ideas, like this , I think the shooting community should try and learn from junk rifles ,,case in point why do Some Mosin nagants shoot 5moa some shoot 8 and others 18 moa without keyhole, from a lead sled, or why do new mini 14s shoot 2moa vs some pencil bbl older models 24moa without keyholing! Or next example 2 idenical 1911 hand guns locked in Ransome rests both shoot 1" at 25 yard groups and change ammo and one 1911 starts shooting 8" groups while the other stays 1" moa and then the next 10 , 1911 handguns tested change much little amounts from different ammo, etc etc I thing the shooting world can learn and should try to learn from junk and bad shooting firearms! This investigation would be much more obviously to understand what dynamics we are looking for better or the best mechanical precision!!

Why not put a dial indicator on the end of the barrel for the fancy camera to look at?

Ill buy a tuner from you when the secret is out. 😅

That was a great discussion! Just Interesting…

Next comment no two barrel are the same ! One idenical barrel can reach pressure 2 grains before the other twin barrel! Example! Why and the both mic internally the same!!!

Over my head by miles..great Vid👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Gotem to want to know everything about tuners

Brain Zolnikov’s channel has this “magic tuner setting” thing figured out.

Erik is a scientist, he’s being humble. He definitely has valid reasons for why he chooses powder charges and seating depth. They are not subjective.

My name is Eric and watching this is weird! 😂😂😂😂

Tuners are PFM....😂

I have been expermenting with the Scott Satterlee 10 round ladder load development and Chiris Long OBT as well as Dan Newberry's OCW and Erik Cortina's low SD & ES.... this is interesting... I would really like to see the results of of Erik Higgins' research finds out.

I've always doubted that a barrel moves before the bullet leaves the end of a barrel. If it does, then every thin profile hunting style barrel would shoot horrible groups.

Here's my hypothesis as to what Erik is doing when he makes a tuner adjustment from match to match, day to day, or even during a set: First, I think all which is required is some fairly simple pre-match studying to figure out how your particular barrel responds to the only thing which changes over the course of a match, or from one day to the next -- barrel heating and cooling rates. Assuming the typical rate of fire during an F-Class competition, at some point after a series of initial shots, the barrel will cease to get hotter and will remain at at certain temperature equilibrium between the heat being put into the barrel by firing and the cooling provided by the ambient air temperature and humidity. For unlimited sighters stages, this should be an easy factor to dial in, as you can simply fire away until the barrel hits equilibrium, then use the setting which works best at that barrel temperature range. For only two sighters, the barrel isn't able to reach equilibrium before before going for score; therefore, a different temperature range model is necessary for the initial ramp to stabilized barrel temperature, and another once the barrel reaches that ideal condition, likely the same setting which was used for the entire 20 shot series used during the unlimited sighters match. Assuming all variables not mentioned here remain identical, I can think of nothing else which would impact barrel harmonics to a degree which would require a tuner adjustment from one day to the next, one match to the next, or during a live match.

who the F has an hour and a half of time to watch this ?

In terms of combinatorics, the terminology is combination, not permutation because the order of the variables is not important.

Magic involved? No one really nows? Not moving until the bullets gone? Then if one feels there isn't really that much of a whip or anything happens until once the bullet is out the barrel then you might as well say there is no point to a barrel tuner.I really question this guy. Mike Ezell's barrel tuners sure work good to where they are the best available among benchrest shooters like myself and no one knows more about Mike at barrel harmonics. After all this guy had to rent a high speed camera so obviously is not an expert with them.