EVERY 40k FACTION IS BAD and HERE'S WHY! Warhammer 40,000 Lore 

Reminds me of JoJo part two, where the Nazi's are trying to stop Dracula from getting ultimate power.

well , yeah logically you sides with the nazies ...because there is simply no other choices . Basically being born in Warhammer is the worst punishment imaginable , you can't even escape in death because there are 4 gigantic assholes waiting in queue to make your soul a fleshlight or their snack ...or both not necessarily in that order .

how tf did you still miss the point of this video ong

well put

@@EwokJerky What are you talking about, we are just talking about the lesser of two evils. If you had to choose between an oppressive dictatorship and a demon who wants to sodamize your soul, I think the answer is obvious. Both are bad but one is clearly worse than the other.

For me that was kind-of set up by Abaddon's fury, in Horus rising, at the idea of the Luna Wolves trying to negotiate a peaceful integration with the Interrex - who had made Xenos a part of their society. Petronella Vivar is right: The 63rd expedition is harbouring splits and discontent based on differing attitudes, beliefs, and interpretations of the mission, long before Horus went to Davin.

Yeah, and then he got his ass kicked in the next book, what an irony)

Basically this is a simplified version of the Badness of each faction The Imperium of Man= Old School Totalitarianism of Almost Every Extremist Society, its Current form is Currently A Theocratic, Totalitatian, Feudalistic, Federative and Autocratic Empire but historically the Imperium under the Emperor is a Far Left Version of Totalitarianism, Progress at the Expense of Human Rights vs Ultra-Arch Conservitism of the Current Imperium also at the expense of Human Rights. Craftworld Eldar: Far Right Autocratic Caste Society, it Treats its Members as More Worthy of Rights than Anyone who isn't Eldar and like the Imperium doesn't tolerate Foreign People. Dark Eldar: Autocratic, Feudal, Slave based State Relliant on Sadism to remain Stable and Raid Innocents to Fuel their Pecculiar Institution. Tau: in Contrast to the Imperium and Eldar is a More Modern Form of Totalitatianism and Autocracy, Having Subjected its People to a Caste system why also Dismantelling the Freedoms.of their Supposed Allies. Leauges of Voutann: Exploitative Mercantilistic Miners, that Exploit People for Resource extraction Orks: Violent Fungal Bioweapons that Kill Individuals and People for Fun Tyranids: a Gigantic Swarm of Hyperintelligent Aliens hell bent on Stripping the Galaxy Dry Necrons: an Ancient Feudalistic Dynastic Line of Robots that Stripped their Humanity. And finally Chaos: Mass Murdering, Exploitative and Angry Psychopaths who worship Literal Demons and 4 Demonic Gods.

That or they're too bad to talk about.

I know its a joke, but Ian probably included the Dark Mechanicum in the chaso faction xD

​@ThaUltimateHunter bro it's very clearly a joke.

All hail the true worshippers of the ommnisiah!!!1!1

They are the true heroes of the setting. Brave enough to ask the hard questions like : What would happen if I put a daemon in this machine gun and welded it to a sad orphan?

Yeah, pre-Vect takeover rulers of Kommoragh were politicians and nobles of the old Aeldari empire, who happened to be in the webway during birth of Slaanesh (and, considering status of Kommoragh at the time, they had been there for all the wrong reasons).

@@user-xq3vt3co7r most likely having a murder orgy when the fall happened didnt know for awhile until some went out to get more captives only to see the empire in ruins. Chances are they were confused for a minute shrugged grabbed some captives and went back home. Most likely centuries passed before the news spread that the empire was gone all just shrugged and went back to murder partying.

Drukhari and the Dark Elves in WHF are supposed to be a satire of American Chattel slavery.

This wasn't any slow thing either, it seems Eldar had the upper edge after the war in heaven pretty much until their fall. That is some 65 million years of gradual grape and pillage

Moreover, their system of syndicalist power mongering means many of the people within their society likely lack the mobility to leave their situation. A raider in a Kabal might be able to jump ship when on a raid and try to convince a Craftworld or Exodite tribe to let them in. But the random Drukhari person doing paperwork back at Commoragh - basically, any member of their society who isn't a captured non-Eldar slave - may not have the opportunity or wealth needed to exit the webway. (Because you better believe the Drukhari control who gets to go in or out). They _literally_ can't afford to leave. Much like impoverished communities relegated to slums in our world: they have to stay and maybe join a local gang to survive, because they can't afford to move. Nor is a random Drukhari citizen - born in a tube and indoctrinated into a life of back-stabbing and torture - mentally equipped to even consider leaving. If they even know that other Eldar societies exist, they've likely been told they're weak or foolish or vulnerable to death. That the Drukhari are strong, in a Darwinian "you survived because you're fitter than all your kin who died" kind of way. It's to the benefit of Commoragh's elites to keep all their underlings thinking this is the best life they'll ever have. To the point those underlings never think to leave. At worst, they'll try to "better their situation" by playing into Commoragh's duplicitous politics. "If the boss dies, we all go up in rank". It's the worst elements of Conservatism, Capitalism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism mashed up in a blender. Where everyone is locked in an unjust hierarchy by ignorance of, or contempt for, alternatives. Where you measure your worth and survival by how many people (of your in-group or otherwise) sit below you. And the only way to get a better deal is to tear down your superiors and betray your peers.

I still disagree that in the context of the 40K universe some are less worse then the others. However, the tragedy of 40K is if there was cross species acceptance and working together the setting would not be like it is. The actions can be justified, but if they just worked together even only with some reasons, these decisions wouldn’t need to be made or be justifiable, based on the universe. The grim dark is of their own creation.

I think a strong argument could be made that the Tau are, by design, not bad. However, they play the role of the narrative foil, pride cometh before the fall and all that. They do the right thing the right way, and they are constantly almost annihilated by the rest of the galaxy in the smallest skirmishes. I've seen it said that the Tau represent pre-DAoT humanity.

@@gymcelsocialism You can probably argue for Farsight. Granted are you applying standards of today or 40K, cause by anything today, even they are probably hard core war criminals.

No one wants to be a bad guy, not really.. there's always an urge to justify your factions behavior no matter how cruel it is.. I guess that's why 40k is so interesting, it forces you to confront that this is a horrible setting full of hate and violence and every being has played a role in getting it here.

😡KHORNE😡 is good.........

I would really hope that they make a story in which the good guys lose, and are crushed by the evil might of the Imperium. You have some rebellion that starts off a bit like the rebellion in The Hunger Games, is mercilessly crushed, some of the survivors turn to Chaos, and are variously crushed again, or evidently have had to sell their souls for survival and inflict cruelty in turn on their erstwhile oppressors. Possibly this is way too dark and pessimistic for Hollywood, but I think it's necessary to get away from the space marines are brave heroes trap that is otherwise waiting for the careless.

The problem with 40k stories is that the emotional range a writer has to work with is absolutely pitiful. You're mostly limited to the anger/sorrow spectrum; there's not really anything to fight FOR, only things to fight AGAINST. It puts a pretty big creative spanner in the works to lose tried and true tropes like love triangles and get nothing in return but cool looking guns.

It’s already a struggle for the black library.

The Imperium ARE the good guys. A) Manifest destiny is legitimate. B) Pro human is NORMAL C) All aliens ARE a threat. Even in a galaxy, resources and space is not unlimited. D) Chaos is actually real in 40K, and thus evil very much is too E) When the stakes are this high, there is no space for shades of grey: only black and white.

It’s already a problem with some of the fanbase.

A lot of people didn't want to do war gaming with the SS or the NKVD

​@@Qwerty-jy9mjWell even for those people they'd be hard pressed to explain why the soviets would have super wizards while still being set on earth.

Well you know what that means.....

They're bad??

I believe there are quotes about nids being sadistic in how they kill, you don't need gouts of acid filled with flesh eating bugs to kill a guy when a spike through the brain will do the job.

Not to mention intelligent enough to use subterfuge. Using the Genestealers to create cults that undermine their planets, so as to weaken them for eventual conquest, would make any CIA guy trying to instigate regime change here in the Real World blush.

Are you guys vegan? If not, that makes you evil by your logic, Since you gladly slaughter boatloads of animals each year, knowing as well that you're destroying forests, and habitats, and feeding climate change which kills animals and humans as well. So by that logic, you are all evil.

based, sounds like a good old time

Yep. Current Imperium is maximally Fascist, but the Emperor's Imperium wasn't un-Fascist either. He was a man who claimed to speak for the will of the people, who fostered a culture of heroism and violence, lead a genocidal/xenocidal war of endless expansion, held contempt for what he considered "degeneracy" (mutation, having religion, making friends with aliens), and was obsessed with plots by the Other that were framed as simultaneously too strong and too weak. All while freely making coalitions with groups (like the Mechanicum) that directly contradicted his own policies, solely for convenience. Big-E hit many of the hallmarks of Real Life Fascist movements and regimes. His Imperium turning into what it did wasn't a complete aberration, but the logical conclusion of the foundation he established.

@@Bluecho4 I disagree that it was the logical conclusion: 1) Every nation has somekind of heroism and violence in their culture. 2) I would say that the great crusade was a pretty realistic project considering the horrible shit that's in the setting. 3) When different human mutant strains start fighting amongst each other over which of them is the true and superior evolutionary path, something has gone wrong and while destroying religions is not a good i personaly consider religion to be a in general 'crap'. 4) It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. 5) Compromises like those with the mechanicus are the most sensible acts any human in the field of politics and diplomacy can make.

There was definitely a point before the Heresy where things were winding down and potentially going in a more positive direction. (spoilers) In the HH novels a lot of Space Marines are concerned because it seems like war would come to an end, and they don't see a place for themselves in a peaceful universe. That's one of the driving forces behind the Heresy. Then a more secular non-religious faction in the Mechanicum is on the verge of creating a device (the Akashic Reader) that will grant the user all knowledge, effective omniscience. The Emperor also was presented as a skilled diplomat, who would often conquer by peaceful means, for instance the Dark Angels home world joins the Imperium willingly. The Emperor definitely is going about things the wrong way, the rampant xenophobia being one of the biggest issues, but the secular imperium was definitely better than the 40K imperium. Of course one leads to the other so...

There are no war crimes. The conquest occurred to planets on an as needed basis.

Thats just because too many 40k fans are straight illiterate. Try actually reading a tau book. Fire caste, the damocles crusade books, etc. People just watch TTS and then go "GW needs to stop portraying the imperium as redeemable!" like thats not whats actually happening in the lore at all. its so embarassing to see people say THE 10TH EDITION TRAILER WAS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, like nah, thats how its been.

@@nullakjg767 yeah even then it was clear to me that the Tau were based on 19th century style "benevolent imperialism" a la Victorian Britain

@@Tsotha i mean with their strict caste system it makes them come off more like hindu empires of the past. and how you are shunned/heavily punished for acting outside your caste. Diplomacy is just a cheaper way to conduct war.

@@Tsotha - I always saw the Tau, and "The Greater Good" as a nod towards the 20th century dystopias that were inspired by Communism. Wasn't it something that JK Rowling used in the Harry Potter books with Grindelwald? I think this has its roots more in the Napoleonic end of the 19th century, than the Victorian - when Utopian radicalism goes bad.

Well, the craftworlds (and even better, the exodites) are probably still closest to "good guys" in the setting. Most of the time their deal is just "leave us alone and we won't bother you". Sometimes they even do nice things for other factions (while fulfilling self interest of course). Plus the eldar all hate Chaos, which is definitely on the evil end of the 40k spectrum.

Except those same eldar would do the exact same thing to humans. Plus eldar civilians are all guardians just in that case without weapons or armor.

@@anirecapped. It should!

fyi no such thing as an eldar civilian they all serve in the military in some form.

​@theredditexperience1 it has now, and it was written by ADB

​@crimsongaming2427 "except"? That's not a reason or justification, that's just an excuse. "They would have done it to us" is the cry of the petty warlord throughout time.

Ha. I love your phrase the "Lore-Industrial complex". Well done

@@0452514The lore must flow.

@@0452514 1 hour later I realize the phrase I was looking for was "extended universe", but couldn't remember it when I wrote that comment. :D

@@GustavSvard lore industrial complex is a better description lol

@@GustavSvard No, no... this is better. Far more accurate, too.

When the Imperium aren't being a bunch of corpse worshipping fanatics, they're pretty reasonable given how unreasonable their world is.

Kinda why I love chapters like the Salamanders and Lamenters. The former will fight for the common man in its mission to defend the innocent, yet will act as callously cold when dispatching those who complain about unfair taxation with fucking fire, and still operate by serfdom laws, indenturing civilians to servitude, despite it being the best quality of life for much of the imperium.They also make questionable decisions in the name of defending people, they will defend a small sector to defend civilians, mounting large casualties in that defence, as a pose to wiping out the threat from the centre which will save thousands times more people in the entire region, the whole shopping cart dilemma each time they mount a campaign, their inability to look at a bigger picture ends up causing more deaths in their misguided doctrine is perfect. Terribly, terribly flawed “heroes”. The latter lamentors to me are great, because the meta treatment of them is to literally be a punching bag for the universe for even being naive enough to trust the inner good in people, things in which we hold as moral imperatives, siding in the wrong side of a civil war where they’re betrayed and fucked over and punished for standing for the common man. Hell, they bomb a planet out of mercy because it’s preferable to die to a planet crack, than the cruelty of the orcs, even their mercy and care is bombing billions, despite the purity of their intentions. Through and through, they are what we would call the good guys, but them not abiding to this universes laws, theyre punished with a curse of pure misery as lesson for what happens when you’re genuinely nice, amazing

The Cults are actually good guys. They are only wrong about what they think they are achieving.

Hard disagree. Anyone you think is comically evil irredeemable murderpsychos, you just haven't dug into their lore enough, or have misplaced positive views of one of the other factions (normally the Imperium, Craftworld Eldar, or Tau). Most of the outlandish behavior from Chaos or Dark Eldar is because of weird metaphysics about the nature of reality in 40K, and that is why you see some cultures as less feasible than others, it's how much their society/behavior leans on weird warp shit and other such fictional shenanigans.

If the british empire's upper class could live like the drukari they would, they transparently believe themselves innately superior to all other people and would love to do all that horrific stuff for fun.

​@@mind_onion that's literally what they original comment just said.

I have a book about Rome during Caligula's reign that you might find reeeeeeal interesting...

@@seekingabsolution1907 No it says there is a range of moral behavior that makes some factions better. I'm saying thats not the case, if you think it is, you havent read enough of the lore.

Unfortunately, this only works if you have the media-literacy to understand it, which is why the Warhammer community suffers so much with fascist sections of its community.

Yeah, I think the reason the Enclaves come across really well, morally speaking anyway, is only because Farsight himself is babysitting the place with no Ethereals to screw them over

As a Farsight Enclave player, I used it as an excuse to create a much more positive, anti-authoritarian faction to emphasize the horrors of the rest of the universe. The lore gives enough room to adapt, but as Ian said in another video about the alt-right and the imperium, creating actually good guys that rebel against these systems is a good way to keep both grim dark and satire aspects of the universe while having a strong lore for your armies.

The sad thing about them is that they are going against impossible odds, the imperium has a million planets, they have five.

History is written by the victors, as they say

"What are the odds?" I love Norm MacDonald

well, historians write the history and most of the time its very poorly done (they tend to be very useful is getting people to hate each other)

You nailed it !

That's like comparing Salamanders to Malevolents.

@@Briselance Just because a chapter is worse, doesn't make the other chapter not also bad. Marines Malevolent are obviously much more evil than the salamanders, but as adressed in this video, that doesn't change the fact that the salamanders are also taking children and mutilating their bodies to turn them into brainwashed super soldiers. That fact remains even when more cartoonishly evil chapters like the malevolents or minotaurs exist

Is it bad that I laughed at that bit?

@@Disasterbator lmao i stole that joke from the lorecrimes people Check em out, theyre mad funny

I also remember them slapping the pipes on the Vengeful Spirit like little children. The astartes are taken as children, and then kept that way. They are what masculinity is in the eyes of children.

nothing morally grey about industrial baby furnaces.

to be fair the 10th edition trailer straight up has gulliman say "yeah, everything the imperium has me say is total bullshit we are not in a good place right now"

@@nobbymcnobs8721 That's not what the comment is talking about

To be fair they also had a "Heroes of Nurgle" line too.

Yeah Eric's Hobby Workshop had a pretty good response to GW's "the imperium is driven by hate" article, where he shows that GW constantly depict space marines and most of the imperial factions as heroic and fighting against all odds for the good of humanity. It's the big issue with 40k's "satire" nowadays mostly being relegated into the background whilst most elements are depicted earnestly, until it's convenient for them to wheel out against controversies.

They are Heroes in the classic Roman sense. No something that a lot of people would know, but doesnt hurt reading a bit about ancient civilizations and their culture erhics. I kinda wish more people did it.

It would we bad if humanity had an immortal warrior king, for sure.... just, uh... don't ask questions about the big dude in gold ;)

This is why I don't believe in objective morality. Morality is determined by your tribal allegiance, nothing else.

This was a helpful post, thank you! I did a rewind on the Tau section because it didn't really drive the point home. They just came across as the closest analogue to modern human warfare. But by your description, the insidious nature of it is more apparent. They're like the Imperium, but with an overactive PR and Marketing Department.

​@@moksound19that is becuase the Tau had to get a be worse make over as the original introduction of the Tau had them actually good.

Be Farsight Enclaves Be a Military Dictatorship Colour everything in red and dark gray like an evil empire Foster a culture of dedication to your commander/dictator Have a war council act as the highest political authority, then staff it with such characters as the clone of a war criminal, a literal mad scientist, and a pyromaniac rebel Literally walk around with your soldiers wearing red shoulder pads with a white circle insignia on them Believe that conflict is inevitable, and that diplomacy comes from the barrel of a gun Utilize extreme, risky tactics that kills a lot of your own soldiers because you believe that "Martyrdom is the highest expression of the Greater Good" and you really need that blitz Otherwise, do brutal "Nuclear Option" tactics like setting off all the volcanos at once or literally summoning daemons to win Somehow, the fanbase is convinced you are the only good guys in the setting ...Successful Enclaves propaganda campaign?

It’s more heroic to take it at face value. The Imperium is doing the best with what it has, under very trying circumstances. They haven’t had any semblance of peace in 15,000 years!

@@goawayihavecommentstomake1488 No it doesn't. The Imperium is an exaggeration of everything wrong with human societies. Your argument indicates that societies have to shift away from democracy, freedom and solidarity to overcome massive challenges, which is a deeply flawed assumption, not backed by evidence, neither in the real world nor in 40k.

​@@goawayihavecommentstomake1488that is mis-reading it badly.in exactly the way the OP was talking about though. The Imperium is NOT doing the 'best it can'. They are gratuitous arseholes a lot of the time, motivated by petty rivalries, xenophobia and zealotry. Even given the dire circumstance they have been in the Imperium could be a much nicer place to live for many of it's citizens. The reactions of the returned Primarchs give a good indication of this, and they are comparing the Imperium now to how it was during the Great Crusade, when it was hardly a paragon of moral virtue either.

I don't think they know they themself come as spores

@@Henkersman1 I believe there was written lore that they do.. grots overlook spore "farms" and ensure that newborn orks get their first few meals by directing them towards the squig pens (out of self defense because y'know, grots look tasty), before the orks make their way towards the larger group.

@@Henkersman1 Ghazgul talked about "coming back for another go" while dying in his novel, so I say they probably are aware of how they come back, and that you can dig up ork yoofs from the ground sometimes.

I think most of the ork just don't do that much of introspection, and the few that would just wouldn't care.

@@alpharius4434 It'd be pretty funny if they REALLY cared tho. Like one finds out and has a complete existential breakdown. When all of his boyz are screaming WAAAAAGH! hes just standing there silently staring at the ground because he cant get the screams of all of the humies hes slaughtered out of his mind. Dude goes back to his Ork house (or whatever they live in) and tries to kill himself but his gun wont work because he is disillusioned and the wagh requires him to believe his gun works. He finally gets his hands on a humie shoota from the stock pile of loot behind the war-chief's hut (or whatever they live in) and shoots himself but immediately wakes up as a smaller Ork, grows bigger, he can still hear the humie mothers crying over their crushed babies in his dreams, and every time he tries to end it he wakes up again and again forever.

I think characters can be both terrible people as well as sympathetic

Noble isn't a terrible approach. The Imperium and Ultramarines especially have a Roman influence, and Rome had dignitas as a concept, but overall was a brutal Imperial regime.

Every setting needs a protagonist, but a protagonist doesn't need to be good or a hero. Guilliman has many admirable qualities and and has a nobility to him, but like you said, he's still a military dictator. I really enjoyed how in the trailer for the new edition, he actually muses that the idea that the Imperium is bravely fighting back Xenos and reclaiming the galaxy, is in fact a lie.

@@Fuerto203 Don't forget that Guilliman canonically thinks that it would be better if the Imperium was straight up burned to the ground because it's such a cruel and horrible place that letting it collapse would probably improve the situation overall. He's keeping the Imperium together because that's his job, not because he thinks that there are any redeeming qualities to the cause he fights for. The Imperium is evil, unsalvageable, and unfixable but dad says keep it up so that's the way it be.

Guilliman annihilated the Word Bearer city of Monarcia, which basically set the Heresy in motion. His hands are certainly not clean.

Exactly! I would even say that Tau is closest to being good - they believe that in a very long run conquering a plnaet is a greater good that leaving it alone One could say that they are as bad as EU, which also forces their beliefs on other, believing that these are good. At least probably only Ethereals are hypocrits, not everyone. We could probably go with "light grey" for Tau. And there are Farsight Enclaves, which freed themselves from Ethereals rule and act differently. I don't know much about Exodite Eldar - but killing trespassers isn't necessary bad - for several thousands of years humans were killing or imprisoning tresspasers, and did that for a good reason. But maybe they are doing other bad things? I don't know.

@@OldSkullSoldier Ironically even before all the grim dark retcons to them, the Tau are only considered “good guys” in comparison to the other factions. Put the Tau in any other sci-fi setting like Star trek they will be seen as the villainous faction with a manifest destiny attitude.

@@brandonlyon730 "Good" is always a comparison unless we talk something omnipotent. Same way you could tell that there are no good nations in the real world, at least in top 50 biggest ones. "Good" is always considered "given the circumstances".

It's a weird thing, but the longer things go, the less satirical 40k is becoming

I’d love to own a reprint of the original Rogue Trader book!

​@@Fly-the-Lighthumanity has committed atrocities since before we left the trees. Nothing is new but the speed and magnitude at which we can commit them.

@@Fly-the-Lightbecause grounding a universe in a gritty vibe tends to hook people in the long run for marketing and internet discussion, generating more revenue in the long run with lore munching fan base. Depending on the generation you ask, Star Wars is either a fun adventure made in the 70s, it’s WWII in space with funny creatures and samurai/knights with laser swords and plot convient space powers that can manipulate the world around….or…..it’s Jin Roh in space with millennia long history, morally grey usage of the force and intergalactic oppression and space racism. Neither are inherently bad, both have their quirks and both have their obvious draws, I loved the Kotor side of SW, that in-depth isolated from the existing universe is so fucking immersive it could be its own thing. Same with warhammer, either is great depending who vibes with it, but this is often an evolution of a long running ip. It’s why I believe GW needs to bring back rogue trader, it can exist as an orbiting genre to the rest of the universe, and can include all the crazy 80s, because it’s no longer confined to that 30 years of lore building.

​​@@CanonessEllinorI have good news for you then! Starting on the 14th of October, GW will start taking pre-orders for the reprint, but only for a limited time, so don't miss out. Cheers!

Yeah I mean that guy is british isnt he? He came out of the most damaging monarchy on the planet, still reining as it did when it terrorized the planet. Its like saying he cant ever be considered a good person because the empire that spawned him is CLEARLY evil.

Oh yeah and I think Ian made that point by saying there's grey to a lot of characters because they're as individuals struggling to do the right thing while being trapped within terrible systems. Like we all are.

Basically in 40k all factions areabsolute evil, but not all characters are absolute evil. Many are gray and even some doubt their own factions propaganda and ideals because doesn't feel all right

Not just under Tory rule, they were living under Thatcherite Tory rule. That was some EXTREME nonsense.

day in the life of a brit

Was gonna say, based solely on this video, seems the Exodites just want to be left the fuck alone. Not sure what's evil there.

Damnd Abercrombie mate, that´s some good books right there

I do like that the most moral person in the First Law trilogy is the child murderer.

That reads worse than it sounded in my head....

@@michaelgrey1351you have to be realistic

It's "will work you to death in a factory then process you into food" vs "will torture you for lols" vs "will mutate your DNA so your children are all horrific hybrids that mind control you." I mean, the Imperium is horrible, but at least they let you live until you die of exhaustion. There's a lot to say for not suffering appalling body horror. 😂😜

THEY BAD. Spooky and bad

​@@ArbitorIantheir not evil they just needed a new SKIN-care routine

THE TORTURE BATMANS?

Considering how many Space Marine chapters treat humans, it's a sensible reaction! They ARE the Angels of Death remember, and the vast majority of humanity will have had no contact with them whatsoever to find out that they are NOT death to everyone in the vicinity! Some Space Marine chapters care nothing whatsoever for humanity, and some are actively hostile, even on the loyalist side

Transhuman dread is a thing in current lore as well

Yeah, there’s definitely a disconnect between the marketing and the writing. That said, I think recent material has begun to turn in the right direction. They didn’t shy away from the servitors and cherubs in that Space Marine armouring trailer, for example.

Yeap, Ultramarines glorification is wild. Especially cuz it's the roman empire which a lot of facists love to reference for their "nostalgia trip". And then you read that Guilliman created his own secret police force (on top of general space marine things) which actively suppresses any kind of insurrection etc. and is brought up in basically none of their material V:

​@@Nothuplay oh no, how dare he police his own realm that's constantly under chaos invasions and the enveloping tentacles of a tyranid hivefleet

@@joshjonson2368 you're proving their point illiterate clown

Capital erodes all

Does a human derive pleasure from consuming the living matter of other creatures though? If there is no neurochemical reward for eating, I wonder if a blue whale would have any biological incentive for feeding upon millions of krill each day?

@@jessl1934 Many humans do quite sadistically enjoy hunting

You have to remind everyone? Who do you think you are? Narcissist much?

It's not questionable, it's stupid. They have transcendent sentience.

Are viruses evil? I think evilness does imply a choice to do something that has negative effects on others. So, a murderer is evil, but cancer is not, although, obviously, diseases can cause immense suffering. But I think there's enough in the background to suggest that the Tyranids have higher organisms who are capable of making choices, or a collective consciousness that can do the same, and so I'd mark them down as making choices and choosing to be as evil as everything else.

Do you worry about the cows you slaughter for your burgers? No...unless you're vegan You just chow down on as many as you can Also you do this knowing it leads to habitat destruction and deforestation and climate change that kills other animals by the millions as well So you are arguing that you yourself are evil

The Tyranids do resemble a natural force, but that force is that of a deadly virus plague. A mindless thing that only seeks to multiply (vira are questionably alive, just as the tyranids are questionably sentient), destroying its host in the process, and eventually depriving itself of what it needs to live. Tyranids in a lot of ways represent nature’s wrath, but the way they leave nothing behind make them more like a perversion of evolution. A natural process out of balance, turning self-destructive.

The biological drive to survive, procreate, and out compete is in every animal. They're not greedy, because they are as amoral as an amoeba floating around a pond procreating and trying to out compete all other microorganisms.

It's not an unpopular stance, it's just a lot of 40k fans don't feel the need to publicly flog themselves all the time about enjoying something in which the characters are evil. Also given when people go to the effort to point out something so obvious, it always has this patronizing tone despite preaching about something that is generally regarded as an unspoken fact. You aren't smart or insightful for picking up on the fact that all the 40k factions are bad, and acting like it's a big deal just makes you look foolish due to it being so obvious. If you feel the need to flagellate yourself because you enjoy a series in which the confines of a fictional universe doesn't hold itself to the standards of modern progressive politics then go ahead, but the majority really isn't bothered by it.

@@ThaUltimateHunter I think there's probably a fair few fans - like me - who don't. I'm a very casual fan: I like the lore in concept, I follow channel's like Ian's, I have a read a Ciaphas Cane book. The Imperium are presented as a fairly moral group being driven by their subservience to a capricious god and a LOT of the media presents a lot of named characters as unambiguous heroes. And I imagine Ian's point is that when that's _all_ you see you're missing out on the intended experience as a satire.

@@ThaUltimateHunter I tend to agree. Ian is right on the details but GW are being a bit hypocritical making statements about how the Imperium is bad when they're the ones that created the impression they weren't with decades of art and background writing.

@@ThaUltimateHunter See, I don't know any of that shit. 3rd edition counts, right? People still remember it, if only the lore. So I liked this video.

​@@captainweekend5276💯%

Along with Night Lords. They don't praise chaos, they just skin people for their own entertainment.

It's AMAZING how many comments are people who seem to be using the Imperium to play out their own power fantasies.

I accept these corrections on the basis that everyone is STILL BAD!

He sure is a BADDUN

@@ArbitorIan My brain made it half the way there haha :D

I mean that is the beauty of 40k isn't it... for everything to be open for creativity. That said I have now decided that they only build orphanages to use them as bait for the upcoming Dark Eldar raid.

And definitely not killing ANYONE

We all mourn their loss

Ok fine, Ogryns are GOOD BOYS

Seems the only good thing for our purses is a consumed galaxy with no life whatsoever

They’re as evil as a hurricane or earthquake.

Yeah trust a leftist to say every faction is evil apart from the parody of communism...

"genociding everyone is morality!"

Tyranids and Orks are easily the most moral factions in 40K. The Nids are just hungry and the Orks like a good fight. Neither of them have an ideology, neither of them use reason to try and justify themselves, and neither of them even care what morality _is._ They have very straight-forward motives.

Remember the ruckus when Paul Verhoeven handled the Starship Troopers adaptation with an obvious Nazi imagery and ironic endorsement of a fascist future ? None at the time in the US accepted that it was an acid take on America's own self-glorification and jingoism. It was hilarious, it was glorious. Or how 2000AD's Judge Dredd systematically gets validated and bland when it's brought to the movie screen when it's a really dark dystopia born in the Thatcher era...

It's also why Kelermorphs are my favorite genestealers. Literally biologically created to appeal to a cultural fantasy of cowboys that never existed beyond romanticized stories and is completely impractical in the world of 40k beyond being walking propaganda. Perfect combination of the imperium being its worst enemy and the tyranids ruthless adaptability that even dreams aren't safe from.

I like them because of how well they embody so many real life tropes or flip them on their head. For example, making change insidious because people don't actually want change for its own sake but because they're just mind-controlled by an evil alien power lurking behind the shadows trying to infiltrate the country and destroy it from the inside. For the rhetoric to be honest, the actual Great Devourer would have to be around the corner and it ain't.

Being eaten still generally sounds better than being made a servitor😅

@@Sara3346 exactly. And it's not a fake Greater Good like with the Tau either ;)

Corax also nuked the five largest cities on Kiavahr to quickly force the surrender of the tech guilds.

I mean, isn't that exactly what happened?

@@SpoonyBard88 no, not at all. Erebus and Kor Phaeron, the eternal Starscreams, flirted with Chaos for more power and then created a domino effect that led to Horus falling and starting the Heresy. The lore is actually pretty clear on that; it's part of why the Heresy is such a tragedy. That's not to say it STARTED that way; the reimagining of the lore that came with the soft reset of the starting of the Heresy series' publishing made it more serious and less satirical.

@@theMusicalCake Point of fact, most people who went on to become Chaos worshippers did so in the millennia after the Horus Heresy. And even most of the space marines and other imperials who went along with the Heresy did so because of a number of reasons, including how awful the Imperium was. Some were tempted with promises of power, sure. Some were mislead by lies and half truths. Say, remind me again how the Emperor punished Lorgar and his legion when he discovered the devoutly religious and fanatically loyal to the Imperium society the Word Bearers had created? Sure, the Word Bearers were bad, the society they created was bad, and what they did to create that society was bad. But casually wiping out a planet and its population as a way of publicly humiliating the Word Bearers was also BAD, showcasing the callous cruelty of the Emperor when things didn't go his way.

there is a canon (though very apocryphal) traitor chapter who'se had this very exact reason for their fall

The Hive Mind almost certainly has to be a true divine being in a universe in which gods are not supposed to exist. It has some of the powers of God, at least to an extent - it’s omnipresent and omnipotent, at least within the Nids, as it can control every Nid (of which there are countless numbers) in the entire universe at the same time, and it can force Nid evolution at will. My theory is that the Nids are created by the universe itself to destroy all life and then destroy itself so it can reset the universe into whatever it should be and not what it is.

I'd agree with everything you said, except I'd swap 'science fiction' for 'Fantasy'. By every metric 40K is Fantasy in a future setting, not strict sci fi.

To really enjoy 40K, I feel like you need to be able to take it seriously in an ironic way. Like, you have to laugh at the absurdity of it, while still enjoying it. It's like Kafka played for comedy.

@@dmgroberts5471 Oh absolutely. It's completely a wink wink nudge nudge type thing.

@@WozWozEre I mean, you just can't read things like: "an open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded" or "innocence proves nothing" (my personal favourite) without saying, "you wot?" in an Ork voice, but _by the God Emperor,_ that shit is fun to yell at full volume when you roll a six!

Of course I root for the empire. They're the only ones fighting for my species. I agree on the satire argument is worthless though.

It's fictional. They're not fighting for your species. You're an outside observer.

@@ArbitorIan The empire is fighting for the survival of the human species in the fictional universe that is the game, yes. Your point is?

I think the original problem here was beginning to err too much on Chaos having absolutely no redeeming qualities -- GW and BL have been turning from the earlier 'Chaos are assholes, but it's a reasonable response to the authoritarian Imperium' and 'Chaos is bad but each Chaos god embodies good and bad things and it's people being like they are that has pushed them so far into badness-only' which have both largely been retconned. once Chaos becomes inarguably, overwhelmingly, always very very moustache-twirling bad, it starts to make the Imperium's behavior look justified to some people as a response to Chaos. If Chaos is literal hell, then anything that is not Chaos seems a little less bad. Making everyone bad but also having realistically grey elements would have helped, but it's far, far too late now imo.

@@honoratagold Hugely agree. I think the factions of 40k work best when there is a sense of logic to them and a reason why they function the way they do. That doesn't mean they have to be "good" or "relatable", but we should be able to understand why they are the way they are. Chaos (and non-chaos aligned imperial renegades) then to get the shortest end of the stick when it comes to this which is a damn shame because I think they have the space to offer some of the most compelling perspectives in the setting!

And that's why playing Chaos is fun. Rhinos deliver pure evil into the heart of the battle!

I mean from their first codex they're deliberately unleashing the Kroot on Imperial scouts and going "alas, how brutal" as their allies eat humans alive. Gav Thorpe even did an interview about their early design, mentioning he based a lot of their unit names on NATO-style buzzwords. It's not war, it's "peacekeeping". It's not loads of tanks, it's an "Armoured Interdiction Cadre". Masking both the war itself and how it's fought as something less bloody than it is. One can imagine Water Caste war propaganda being very similar to footage from the Gulf War, with breathless news anchors hyping up the new Seeker Missiles over endless footage of missiles taking off.

I don't think that was necessarily lost per se, maybe they simply already grew out of it, like you mentioned, or in a way the Farsight Enclaves took up that mantle (I say that because I don't know any major obviously bad point for them, but with 40k finding the bad in a faction is not an If but a When)

@@franciscoguinledebarros4429 agreed