Harry Metcalfe of the "Harry's Garage" channel recently posted arguing that range and therefore battery condition is so important yet hard to determine that manufacturers should be required to display battery state of health i.e. remaining capacity, on a dash display.. The one downside of the Zoe is that most owners will not find a way to avoid charging to 100% and then potentially leaving it in that fully charged state. Having said that, they do have a good reputation for retaining battery condition over time.
Yes, I saw that video. I can't really disagree that it should be possible to access it from the infotainment system - although maybe in a menu a long way down. We don't want people obsessing about it. I wonder if it's more of a problem for PHEVs - that was the issue he had. PHEVs are complicated - they effectively have two drivetrains - so maybe some manufacturers do the electric side less thoroughly than with a full EV. I agree, it's a shame that the ZOE doesn't offer a charge limit. I've overcome that with the Ohme Home Pro and have done a video on that very subject - but it's true that most people won't know they have that as an option, or be prepared to install that specific chargepoint. However, you are right - the SoH generally seems to hold up well on them.
@@theelectrictransitionPHEVs are an issue for degradation. Primarily because charge cycles are important and a very small battery will have more cycles for a given km. Same as smaller batteries vs bigger batteries generally. A 100kwh battery will degrade slower than a 60kwh given the same efficiency.
Yes, that's an interesting point. It depends a bit as to how they manage the charge, but it certainly makes sense that they will try to maximise EV range to make their car look good in comparison to others, and thus cycle the battery deeply.
I see EVs that have been sitting on dealership forecourts for weeks with less than 20% charge. Battery health reports should be available for all used EVs, and they should come with a 7 day return policy as standard as a minimum. Otherwise you don't know what you're getting. Battery health stats can be reset in many cases, so the apps may not give a true measure of capacity. The only way you can test is to charge the car from a low % to 100% and measure the kWh that the battery has been able to accept, taking a bit of energy loss between charger and car into account.
I think in general you will be protected to some extent when buying from a dealer - there is a requirement that a car be fit for purpose. However, it's not something I fancy trying out! Being sat at below 20% isn't a major worry to me - as long as it doesn't go completely flat. The main risk is the 12V battery being damaged by going flat, as I suspect they are not topped up when the traction battery is low. I think the cars try to preserve the remaining range by changing their behaviour a bit, including disabling the 12V top ups. Yes, I agree about the best thing being the full, detailed check - although what you say about the SoH being reset is a new, and interesting, piece of information. I suppose anything on a car that's written into onboard storage could be reset, it's just a question of how hard it is to do. Even mileage could be modified, although that's much harder than it used to be, as a result of it being stored in lots of different places.
To be honest, if you're paying £30 or less for a dongle I would not have confidence in it. I have two dongles for my ID.3, each offering a wide range of features but not a complete set. The first, an OBDeleven, is for diagnostics and code resetting. The version purchased is specifically for VAG vehicles and only works with it's own app. Experience tells me that it works very well. The second dongle I bought after seeing Tesla Bjorn use one on an ID family car. It is an OBDLinkLX. Bjorn used it with the Car Scanner app but the dongle also works well with the ABRP app. This dongle and Car Scanner allows me to find detailed battery health information. Great video. I am now a subscriber. 👍
That's a fair comment. I didn't paying a lot, in the grand scheme of things - and you get what you pay for. It's hard to get a good sense of what things are worth, once the market has been flooded with clones. Sometimes, it's possible to pay more than necessary for a name, but at the same time, the cheapies could well be rubbish. I think what I have will do for me at the moment. If I were in the trade it would definitely be a good investment to pay more - perhaps much more. As it is, I'm not likely to use it all that much. I might check the SoH once a year - but I don't want to obsess about it. I might try your suggestions though, if I feel a need to replace mine - so thank you for the information, it is much appreciated. And thanks for the words of encouragement!
I have a Zoe 50 from 2020. I have found a dongle that let’s me read the data, and try to follow the SOH monthly. After 3 years and 30k km it indicates approximately 95,9%, which should be rather good. But recently I took my Zoe to a Renault shop for regular maintenance, and they checked the SOH upon my request, giving me a lower value of around 93%. Who knows why the difference and which value should be the real one? Great videos by the way, keep on the good work!
Hmm, yes, that's interesting. I wonder if we might be hoping for more accuracy from the onboard system than it's capable of giving us? Thanks for the kind words of encouragement!
A very big thank you. About to start my search for a new “2nd hand” EV, but keen to ensure I get one with a decent battery. I am now going to follow up on your OBD2 and app recommendations.
Oh, that's great! I'm glad it's useful information. I wish you every success in your search. Maybe visit a few specialists as well, even if you don't buy from them, to understand the difference/benefits. Ask if you want me to name a few (I have no affiliation to any company, but know a few I might visit, depending on your location)
I've owned an EV from new since 2019 (Kia e-Niro). You may wish to check my comment above here on battery degradation versus range loss. In many cars they are not always the same thing.
@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 thanks for the comment. I saw your video on that subject, it's very interesting. You seem to suggest that they use up the top buffer before you see any reduction - but I wonder how true that is. The top buffer is intended to avoid full charging the cells, and if they allow it to reduce then the maximum charge voltage will creep towards the maximum cell voltage, which might increase degradation later in life - so it would surprise me if they do that.
Great video. I've already got an Autel AP200 OBD2 dongle but not tried it yet. What other features did you want yours to support other than the battery soh?
Thanks very much. That's a good question about features. I suppose I might not have worded that sentence/section well. I haven't found anything that I need and which it won't do. However, I wanted to let people know that it might be imperfect. I have seen a few debug messages and onscreen errors suggesting that some commands are not working. It seemed only fair that I told people it might not do what THEY want. Having said that, it's also possible that the error messages are being caused by my having chosen the wrong profile. It did everything I wanted for the video/initial usage, so I haven't experimented more yet, but it could be that choosing the other ZOE profile would result in fewer error messages.
With my 2020 Zoe ZE50 I have followed the battery care institutions only to find the range decrease over time to the point that the range from 100% to 10% using eco mode = 150/160 miles. After running the battery down very very very low the battery capacity has greatly improved now the winter range 90% battery = 190+ mile.
Oh, that's really interesting. So it sounds like an occasional full to (very) empty cycle helps to recalibrate everything. Thanks for the tip. That's a good thing for me and other owners to know!
i have a 2015 zoe and the battery health jumps around. used the same app and dongle over the last couple of years. but the millage does change bought the car with 90%. lowest its been is 79% and the highest it has been has been is 98%. the miles do change and the maths on the capacity changes too
Oh, that's interesting to know, thanks. The jump up to a higher number wasn't as a result of a firmware update, was it? I know there was an update for the ZE50 that affected how the health was calculated, but I don't know if a similar update was done to pre-2019 cars.
Thanks, for the extra detail in the second comment, that was very interesting. For some reason that second comment was held for review, and I didn't spot it for quite a while. I've now approved it, but temporarily it has disappeared. Hopefully it'll turn up again, as it would be interesting for other people to see. Sometimes things get flagged for review but as creators we don't get notified - I suppose because, if they really were to be offensive, we shouldn't be exposed to them by default. RU-vid is looking out for us - but it's a difficult job to achieve with complete accuracy.
Why the recommendation to keep charge between 20 and 80% when the manufacturers build in a buffer to prevent under/over charging anyway? Also buyers have no idea whether the battery has been charged sympathetically or not, so theres not much incentive for first owners do do this and every incentive for them to fully charge and fast charge for their convenience. Buying an ev is a lottery and that is now being reflected in high depreciation.
It's not about over charging or under charging. Leaving a car sitting at a high state of charge for a long time - many days - can slightly degrade the battery. A little bit. Sitting below 20% can flatten the 12V battery. Buyers can know if the car has been charged sympathetically - they can look at the state of health. I discuss how to do that in the battery health video.
It’s not an easy one to determine on a s/h purchase, personally if I was purchasing a used EV from a dealer I’d insist on a manufacturer report or I would walk away. That said I believe the biggest issue is the amount of fast charging the car has had in its lifetime. This I believe is a far more important than charging to 80%. Leaving a battery at a very low charge level is probably the worst offence and when not in use leaving at 100% for prolonged periods. My ID.4 with two apps one shows 98% the other 95% I don’t have much faith in either as both are not that consistent. What I find interesting is when I drive on occasion down to zero percent and showing 0 kms. range, on a 7.5kw. home charger and the car charger show 77kw. back to 100%The claimed usable charge. Weather previous driving style and historical range calculation make the range prediction useless when purchasing s/h. A more important thing is that the BMS is maintaining a good calibration, so that it knows accurately when the battery is fully charged and most importantly accurately when low. An example of a BMS out of calibration a car going into limp mode at say 15% SOC. The battery is probably still okay. But will need a main dealership to sort My ID.4 has over 170000 km. only needed tyres and wiper blades 😁
I agree, it's a fairly complex area. I suppose, in hindsight, I should have mentioned calibration by doing a full to empty cycle. Oops. Your ID.4 has done you well. That's a lot of miles for a model that's relatively new. Long may it continue!
Fast charging does indeed increase the risk of range loss but not necessarily. Check out 'James and Kate on EVs' RU-vid channel. James is a mobile engineer working for Cleevely Motors. He goes through a servicing he did on a 3 year old Tesla Model 3 that has been used as a taxi in Nottingham UK. It had over 200,000 miles on the clock and rapid charged a lot. Range loss was 10% at that mileage.
I would like to see dealers and reviewers publish the yearly maintenance charges for EVs. They could be matched to the battery warranty period I think people will be shocked how UK dealers are desperate to maintain their huge margins on servicing. The Hyundai Kona looks cheap to maintain until year four when they slap you with a £600-700 battery coolant replacement. But in the US and Australia it 10 years or 100k miles. Why the difference ? It’s a typical rip off in the UK Add to this that EVs will also be taxed per mile so the Gov maintains their tax take as ICE cars begin to disappear.
That certainly seems like an odd discrepancy. I think you are probably right; dealers will struggle without their revenue from servicing, so I think it's almost inevitable that they will try to hang onto it.
@@theelectrictransition Indeed I spoke to my local dealer and he looked bemused at the thought of a £700 4th year service. It’s possible the guy I read had a problem which would have been covered under warranty The confusion just highlights the need for proactive openness about ongoing costs
£600-£700!!...My friend with his Ioniq paid under €100 for battery coolant replacement here in France. My Kia e-Niro will have that done at the upcoming 105,000 km service and I think the quote was €120. We don't know for sure yet how EVs will be taxed but something must be done as ICE sales and fuel sales dwindle. Here in France there are 2 million fewer petrol and diesel cars on the road than there were 2 years ago. People hardly notice the changes going on but the data is unequivocal. Petrol and diesel cars being scrapped are now exceeding the sales of new petrol and diesel cars by a million a year and rising.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 Whilst I think the guy with the £700 bill for coolant may have got something wrong it would be cheaper to drive to France spend a couple days in a nice Gite, get the car coolant changed and come home !
I think so - but some people can't seem to resist the draw of a new car. I kind of get it - the hassle free aspect, and being the first to own something. However, the judicious nature in my DNA makes me baulk at the cost of it
Oh, thanks. I'd not heard of that. I take your point; it looks like CanZE will not be updated any more. To some extent that might not be a problem, as the car won't be changing any more. However, it does mean that the app may stop working after an OS update, I suppose.
