Ex GW Staff explains WHY so many Age of Sigmar kits are going away  

Pinning this from the description! Let's talk about the 'why' behind this week's Age of Sigmar news! There's been a lot of negativity about the #newaos article this week, but I haven't a lot of people discussing why it might be happening, and as ex GW staff, I feel like I can add a bit of background information to explain things. I'm not trying to take away any bad feelings you might have, just adding some logic to the conversation! Please let me know what you think of the video, and watch until the end! I'm not interested in hate comments about GW, there's plenty of videos on other channels that will welcome you there, but I'd love to have a constructive chat about if my video helped explain things a bit!

Just a clarification point. GW might be valued at £7 Billion, but their turnover over last year was about £500 Million. £7 billions is what people think it would cost to buy GW, not how much they got paid/made in a year.

The not selling bit doesn't sit in super well when Gunpla is still printing kits from the 80s. They still have their limited runs but those limited runs are known in advance. The storage formula is there but at the same time: X is sold out, cool print some more in a few weeks/months, Y isn't selling, then stop printing until they're sold. Z only sells occasionally, then second string it and store them in facility Z. The core of the hobby should be these incredible miniatures, letting it be the games is a recipe for sadness because the paper rules publishing side will forever be increasingly behind current rules. Lore, campaigns, art, hobbying, and factional direction shifts should have enough leverage to move paper in as robust an IP as we have.

For me, the biggest issue is : why should a kit only for one game system? Why can’t you have Leviathan Dreadnought in your 40K space marine army ? Why can’t you have latest sculpt of Slaves to Darkness or Black orks in The Old World ?

I haven't heard a single new argument for nuking half of a very new range that is supposed to be the "face" of AoS.

Removing a model from production for a new model doesn't make removing the rules for the first model reasonable, Many of these having been sold out at the time they removed them implies they weren't taking up warehouse space. Especially given all the out of print Forgeworld figures that have cluttered up the website.

I always like your positivity, and I continue to be a fanboy but Stormcast being so bloated was GW’s fault, not the consumers’. They released that many kits to grab sales and that cycle will continue. Stormcasts will get rebloated in 4.0 again. I didn’t even have a chance to get my dracolines done before they’re going away, so that means I’m just going to proxy them as whatever Stormcast cavalry unit is released down the road. My paladins will be whatever heavy infantry is released. I’m still going to use my models I paid for, they’re GW models and I’ll base them on whatever size bases I need to, they’ll just count-as whatever new datasheets get released. My ballistas are going to be stolen by my Night Goblins for The Old World though 😂

I play infinity from Corvus Belli. They also have whole armies out of catalog/print/manufacturing. BUT they keep the rules for these armies in the game. Plus they have proxy rules that as long as it is an infinity model, you can use it. For them not selling isn't a reason too pull an army from the game. Plus free rules, free armybuilder, etc to keeping up with your collection far easier. GW could have this easily be resolved by telling players that the models will not be sold no more, BUT they can count-as the new stuff/profiles/etc. And if you want to lessen that you could shove profiles together of the units look similar. So your argument that it is "Natural" and something too get used too, I think other companies show that it can be done better. It can be solved with rules being kept up to date/viable or allowed to be counted as something else to keep a collection in the game. This is an example of a company only interrested in future sales. Even GW has its own example: How many times have the Space Marine kits changed, but still count as space marines....

I mean you explained some of the possibilities about the thoughts behind dumping models that aren't selling, but you didn't connect WHY they aren't selling. If the kits are cool, then it must be something else. Do people just buy one, and that's it? Are they not buying any, because the rules in-game aren't good? Some of those Stormiest Eternals kits have spent more time rather than less being unavailable/waitlisted, so even if we wanted to get them, we couldn't. Any thoughts on variables like that?

Your points make total sense, but surely “they don’t sell” is almost entirely their own fault- the rules? When Eldar were overly powerful at the start of 10th their ancient 20 year old fire prism kits were constantly sold out. Make an army better and people will buy it, but I guess when you’re pumping out so much new stuff constantly it’s cheaper to kill a product than to hire a rules writer to make it an enjoyable army to play. Based on the Painting Phase’s interview with James Hewitt, GW wants to spend as little time and money on writing rules for the game they sell as possible. It just depressing

I think the problem is that their messaging has been horrible. The biggest "problem" is the Stormcast. Of course Beasts players were going to be upset, but they're a faction that was on the chopping block for a while same with nakey orcs. They could have easily shown exactly what was going to be replaced so we didn't have as much fear, as well as instead of giving "Timed rules" encourage people to use their Sequitors or Old Liberators as new Liberators. All of this is a GW created problem by making overly bespoke rules for each different slight variant of "Heavily armored stormcast infantry on a 30mm base with a hammer and shield." that could have been fixed by making the rules just be "Here is your unit of heavily armored stormcast infantry on a 30mm base with a hammer and a shield, use the mini you feel most appropriate."

Its the precident. Do models need an expiry date now? Are fyreslayers the next on the block? We need proper communication

I like your positivity, I really do. But let's be honest, I clicked on the video hoping I would learn something. Spoiler : I did not😅 We certainly aren't as knowledgeable as you about the logistic of minis production, but we were all raised and educated in a capitalistic system. We do understand the basic that you're explaining here. Pb here is not the "why". Again, we all understand why. The pb here is the "how"🤔. I am pretty sure you understand that this specific move is bad customer communication. Why don't you adress it 😉?

I hope the Thunderbird is secured well, its rocking in the background :P

If models aren't selling, especially recent models, there are likely two culprits: 1. the rules are bad 2. GW is charging too much for the model in-question Maybe they should fix both of those before considering removing kits?

Taking models out of rotation to make room for a replacement kit would be fine. No one would care. The thing that pisses everyone off is they don’t do that. They take the old kit out, abandon the rules for that unit Bring in a whole new kit with new rules to invalidate your existing miniatures. That’s what grinds everyone’s gears. This hobby is a lifelong obsession that can take years or decades to assemble and paint a force. Only to have it yanked from underneath you. People would still buy the fancy new kit even if they didn’t invalidate the old models.

I am loosing 1/5 of my slaves to darkness army with not being able to use the warcry warbands, i own all the once they remove exept two

I was going to get back in and buy 40K around the holidays. Looking at everything with edition releases and the way GW does business pushed me away. I bought different minis, play a mini-agnostic system and use non-Citadel paints I get from my local game store to support local. And stuff like this is just confirming that I was right to do so.

I think you missed an important distinction. The issue isn’t that range are discontinued. That’s normal. The issue is that those ranges, some of them only a few years old, won’t be playable anymore. Most people have a pill of shame, which translates into years of delay before your last kit reach the table. If some ranges like the 2e AOS stormcast lose their rules in just 6 years, then it doesn’t make sense to buy any of them at all. There’s no excuse for a 6b company to discontinue something as essential as rule support. Especially considering it doesn’t take any warehouse space and how low wages are.

“Finished up my service…” What? It sounds like working for GW is equivalent to doing a couple combat tours or something.

At what point can you blame GW for shooting themselves in the foot? Rules sell models and they write the rules. If a kit doesn’t sell, it’s THEIR fault.

Great video andy, we appreciate the calmness with which you explained it :). The problem I see is the distrust that has been generated right now in the brand image. I could have done it like with the primaris, step by step and with delicacy, but here it was with the delicacy of a steamroller. I get the impression that it is going to be more expensive for them (especially for marketing) to regain that trust than what they save in a warehouse...

Games Workshop will do what Games Workshop do. It first happened to me when the Undead army were split an half of my only painted army became unusable. I learned back then that GW don't owe me anything, but in return I owe them nothing...certainly not any loyalty. Other manufacturers, games, conversions, proxying, house rules, fan group supplements all exist as ways to soften the blow. Ultimately, the consumer can only control their own actions. If this decision bothers you, change your buying/playing habits and let them know through the only method they will ever hear - the tills.

As someone who collected Warcry warbands, it was pretty disappointing to see some of the kits disappear in as little as two years. Appreciate that they have to drop models to release new ones. On social media, GW said buy while you have the chance, but most of these sold out within a few hours. Not sure what the problem with doing a final made order run on kits they are retiring. The fact they sold out so quickly suggest there is still demand for them.

If it’s not the best decision for the people who fund the company (customers) then it’s not the best decision for “the company” it’s where best for a person with decision making power.

Great to have your insight on this, always good to have a decision like this given some context, would love more of it in the future.

Yeah I dont know, firstly i appreciate and applaud the fact that your going against the grain to speak what you feel is true, thats pretty difficult to do especially when you have a big enough platform like yourself. But I feel as though the only times GW should and can discontinue kits without massive community backlash is if theyre updating the kit. The issue with the argument of "theres only so much warehouse space" is that we already know that GW can manage it, not only are they making enormous ammounts of profit which could absolutely afford more warehouse space, but they have had the made to order system come in and out of the hobby since I joined like 8 years ago. They could easilly keep the moulds and make them made to order while still giving them rules. But the comparison to river island isnt exactly fair. Clothes have always been seasonal and whoever buys them buys them and whoever doesnt misses out, but because there is rules in games workshop games like beastmen, it would be like saying "ok anyone that bought beastmen in the last 20 years can keep their models but they cant play aos with them" "ok anyone that bought river island clothes that are out of season can keep their clothes but they cant wear them outside" its a little unfair and a little silly to make that comparison but I get where your coming from. Anyway not trying to spread negativity or anything but i feel its important as part of the community to speak out if people are being mistreated for being a customer especially that this could happen with any range at any time gw just has to make that decision.

It's a shame that alot of what is in demand just comes down to tournament play and the rules writing team. I wish more people were actually buying the models they like and not just whatever is smashing the meta this week.

People might have been happier if they announce models are being "consolidated" into remaining units, rather than mothballing them. I bet that people will be doing that anyway.

Problem with Aventis isn't that it isn't a great lookin model, the unit didn't have good rules people wanted to use ingame. It wasn't a competitive warscroll. If they simply had updated the warscroll to make Aventis great - it would most likely have sold at least a little better.

Stormcasts were the "sell" for the game, push push push. Retiring this many Stormcast this early is insulting. To use a real-life example of someone online videoing, he has $3500 of Stormcast. $2500 of it has been removed from GW play. That's a LOT of money to throw away. Or has he bitingly satirically put it, "it's really $2500 of opportunity. All I need now is another $2500".

I do think giving people more notice about these cancellations would mitigate the anger from fans. The people who bought Kratos tanks for use in 40k comes to mind. The paint was barely dry on a lot of people's models before it went to Legends.

Kudos for this video. Very thoughtful and all makes sense. I think what is a shame is the company's aversion to multi-use kits, feels like that would be good news for us and for GW (for exactly the reason you talked about: more sales per box on the shelves is good news!) That feels like it's an outcome of internal dysfunction and we just have to hope that at some point the relevant people at GW see the light and doesn't put the sales attribution cart before the commercial horse. And I do think people have a legitimate complaint that the Stormcast range wasn't grown at a more sustainable pace. But, big picture, I think you make a great case.

GW can decide what ever they want. If a product is not sold anymore it's discontinued, that is the same story in ALL businesses. BUT no company is then trying to FORBID customers who own this product, using it AND asking their clients in the same moment to be so kind to buy their new products instead. THIS is not sustainable business in a modern world. What's the point in removing models from lists being used in official tournaments ? Becoming "Legendary" means nothing els but throwing it in a waste bin or trying to use them with other game systems. Which is what I'll do. I am more or less done with the way GW does it's erratic business decisions. I know very few companies working this way and staying successful over the years. I am in this hobby since 1980ties and have gone through a lot of changes with GW, but taking away Fantasy-Battle for a mere 4 pager was a point when I lost already faith in this company. If I woulnd't have played also 40k at that time, GW would have been done for me. Granted their miniatures are great. But their games systems aren't and the silly model politics aren't either. So I dropped also the old new "Old World" after an initial spike of interest and use the minis got Kings of War and other, better, less complicated and overburdened rulesets. I'd rather like AoS and was just building another Stormcast army when the hammer fell last week on about 98% of my sacrosant army. Great. Hundreds of euros and countless hours in thinking, assembly and painting just going down the drains for what ? Now I can play "Legendary"...this was my last attempt to find anything of interest in GW games and related channels as well. Sorry for the wall of text. Good Luck ...forgot to mention : I cancelled my sub to this channel as I have no need for it anmyore. Nothing personal. Just business.

As a fellow ex GW employee of 16 years who left 9 months ago, I completely agree with your comments. Though I have a huge Beasts of Chaos army (all minotaur and dragon ogers!) and a large Bonesplittas army, I agree that if products are selling like crazy, they don't get pulled. Now, an argument could be made that poor rules sometimes influence sales. If a beautiful unit (like Aventus) has sub par rules, it can influence a segment of the customer base not to buy them. This was probably an influencing factor with the bonesplittas. I love my savage boyz, but there was only one unit in the entire army that had a Rend of more than 0. Great video, thanks for being a positive influence on the interwebs!!!

I have a large "real" beastmen army, all gors and minotaurs. I was expecting these guys to go but the real hurt is my alt for what I was going to play was stormcast sacrosanct, so I'm waiting for the new rules to see what I do. My beasts though I'm excited to play in old world, Some of these guys will be getting rebased for a second time from old fantasy.

Thanks for posting this. I am a big SCE collector and had a lot of these models already being squatted. You're right, they are never really played (even in the editions they came out in IMHO) with certain units being the go-to for armies. That being said, I will still use them as I don't play competitively at all and was already running sequitors and liberators as the same unit in 3e. I am very excited about the new, streamlined models too as I have quite a large force of Thunderstrike armor. I want more names heroes to be reforged in it, like Naeve Blacktalon. I want my Gavriel Sureheart to be taller and more imposing.

Welp. Looks like folks with *entire armies* getting nuked are gonna have to find somewhere that’ll let them keep playing them… Somewhere *else.*

The problem isn’t that they dumb tje models now. It’s what’s in between the lines. When something isn’t selling under their perspective they will simply delete it. If another specialist game team needs the kits for their yearly selling reports (gw is actually built like this apparently) your models will be renoved from the game and put into another one. Means your invest is never over. Play the newest stuff or good luck in finding a group that plays an old edition. Your armies or models are constantly in the threat of being cancelled away - that insecurity is pushing me out. And to be honest on a level that I consider to leave the painting part too. There where so much dick moves in the last couple of years - I‘m fed up.

The main ones I'm hurting from is plastic Wargor, the herdstone and the Untamed Beasts. I just wanted the Wargor and Herdstone for painting and terrain, but the Untamed Beasts were my chaos marauder replacement for my army, so now my project is ruined because no way am I going to pay 2nd hand prices. This was for a Cult of Slaanesh army; I was using Untamed Beasts as my Chaos Marauders so that their more savage looked clashed better with the elegance of the Dark Elves.

To save on warehouse space, gw should adopt how daemons of chaos were compatible with 40k and WHFB/AOS. For beasts, their sprues could be tooled with gun and other futuristic weapons. I remember WD encouraged this.

Had Beasts of Chaos been an actual array of different beasts and not just Goats they might have been more popular. GW did this to themselves IMO

I don't play AoS but there were quite a few of the minis that are being done away with that I had planned to pick up at some point for use in other games. In they go they go, I'll just have to look for alternatives.

Dropping all those Skaven from AoS is making me a lot less likely to actually play The Old World. I wasn't expecting a *lot* of support for them, but just entirely removing the entire TOW lineup from sales is pretty annoying.

I don't buy the whole not making money on older plastic kits, they have paid for themselves many times over. The main upfront cost is in making new moulds, after that has been covered by initial sales making more plastic kits cost pennies if you are at GW scale. This is more likely a shelf space and storage issue for GW, we know they can't make enough of popular kits to keep up so reducing the number of lines you need to keep supplied means more kits in stock and more sales. You can't sell what you don't have.

If my WS bikers and Sacrosanct weren't selling then the main reason for it was bad rules. GW, after people got their Sacrosanct armies , nerfed the bejesus out of them . And then they did NOTHING to fix the units which would have improved the sales. 10th w40k and 4th AoS taught me an important lesson . Clearly collecting an army over 3-4years is not the way to go. The only way to do it is to buy stuff in 1-3 months fet 6-12 months of plwying out of it and buy a new army. Also legal for friedly play means nothing in all parts of europe where legend means not accepted to play against.

Such an underrated video well done, dude! This is exactly what I've been thinking if they we're selling, they wouldn't be going people just like to hate GW. I'm proper gutted about the warcry warbands I much preferred chaos vs chaos of the first edition.

The problem is GW didn't anticipate that there's a non-monetary cost to this. Yes, producing an unprofitable item isn't ideal from a business perspective, but it does earn you another valuable currency in the consumer space that IS crucial to continuing success: Trust. Which can lead to money in the overall even if that item isn't profitable. Buying into a hobby like miniature wargaming is expensive and time consuming. It's fun, of course, but it's not like say... buying an action figure. It's much more expensive, much much more effort on the consumer's part, and in order to be worth that extra money and effort, there has to be trust that it will be rewarded. If you keep selling a product that isn't selling super hot, then I, as a consumer, am confident my purchases will be backed up for years to come. Sure you're making less money on that one product... but you're making more money overall because I can look at that thing and say 'okay well if that's around - even if it's mostly just on store shelves and warehouses taking up a little space and not being actively manufactured - and think "Okay, even though my faction is a bit niche, it's less niche than that, and if that's still around then I know my investment is safe." It's like a stock except instead of putting in money in the hope of getting more money out, you put in money in the hope to get fun out - and now they've made the fun stock feel way more volatile. My Hedonites of Slaanesh no longer feel perfectly safe, even if their updates may be minimal - now they feel like they could be chopped and my wonderful bisexual genderfluid dance party/army could evaporate in 5e cause it wasn't selling enough. Or because some exec decided they didn't like the look of them. (Never forget, just because sales may be the biggest thing, it doesn't mean petty vindictiveness can't also be a factor - I've seen entire MMOs that were quietly profitable killed off over that kind of thing.) In short - GW now needs to justify itself to me. GW needs to explain why I would continue to invest my time and money into their products when I can play other, arguably better balanced, wargames with cheap 3d printed minis. Basically I invested into GW because GW, while far from flawless, has generally been pretty safe and does produce very good quality minis, and has a built in fanbase that makes finding games a little easier. But now that you've hurt my trust, you've made me seriously question if I should continue to invest or if it's better to try to build something less centralized, elsewhere.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. As with a number of things GW does it's not what they're doing, it's how they're doing it and the way that's communicated to us. Because of the exhausting weekly churn of new models, and the heavy enticement from them to get us to buy the new shiny thing, there's often times where older models get ignored over new ones. And then there's a lot of times where I might go to buy a model and it's sold out for months at a time, likely due to warehouse and manufacturing space being focussed on those new models. Sales are always going to be poor for a model you've not produced and has been unavailable for half the year. That's the how they're doing it. How they're communicating it, in this article specifically is that "we can't possibly be expected to keep making all these old things for you to buy AND keep making new things!" when, unless there's some faustian bargain in play I don't know about, they're not actually required to keep making as many new models as they do, or aggresively and predatorily pushing them at the expense of existing kits. Knowing the tiniest amount about how much it must cost to design and make new models (and the moulds required for them) it's almost baffling that they don't try to incentivise us buying older kits more often, because there's no new design work or tooling required so higher profit. Especially higher profit when the price of the old kits is keeping being "adjusted" to meet the newer, more complicated kits which we're told are priced higher because of these backend costs. The aformentioned inventory problems they face mean that a lot of the things being removed are either currently, or have been very recently out of stock, and with this announcement being sprung on everyone in the general consumer base we've had no time to get the things that we might have liked to pick up at some point but been holding off on for whatever reason. I suspect there may be more than a few ebay auctions for those that had been available after this announcement, marking the price of already not inexpensive items due to the out of production nature of them. Like the inflexibility of GW to offer an actual proper pre-order system for their items, or their reluctance to include digital rules updates on a subscription basis, it seems like this is just more money they're leaving on the table. Marking kits as last chance to buy, and having them sell out immediately is the same as not producing enough new releases for the demand. It seems great on paper but could they not be taking more advantage of the renewed demand? Imagine if they offered a Last Chance To Buy system like their Made To Order system, where you got notice models were being removed, and had a relatively long time period to place an order for them (lets say something spanning at least one month to account for most people being able to get a paycheck during it) and that those items will then be made as a last run so people could reasonably have a chance to stock up on the kits they might want for their army before seeing them vanish? They could go a step further and have the retirement of kits be on a regular basis. Normalise the removal of items so there's less outcry when kits are removed from sale, and drive people to not just check what is new and shiny but what old things they've been putting off getting that they have to get now. I'm not sure it'd do my mental health any more favours than the current new release churn does but it feels like it would fit with the FOMO oriented sales tactics, and would possibly give the company better idea of the demand of some kits before removing them from sale.

Good vid. A current insider I know tells me that Stormcast kits literally never sell outside of the starter boxes; ever, like worse than Idoneth and Lumineth. Did your experience match this?

I see your point and to be honest it makes absolute sense from a business point of view. But the point you missed here is that they used this excuse to go ahead with setting a precedent of removing miniatures that were released less than six years ago. How would that translate to customer retention? It's ok to cite business reasons to remove models that do not sell but that same reasoning must be applied to other aspects of the business. How do you imagine SCE players' confidence will be with buying new kits going forward? Why would they spend hundreds of pounds for something that might be retired a couple of years down the line? Removing the ENTIRE Sacrosant range was a step too far and in my opinion disrespectful of customers' time and money.

hey Andy, Gigantor here. im really glas AoS gave me a whole new range of night goblins for my old world army. i like how nearly all the models are useable even though not all of them were ports from warhammer fantasy. gonna start with a 500 point list thats like......................80% squigs

I think it's understandable that they removed kits for various reasons, but they could be a bit more open about why and a bit longer roadmap, and also give a made-to-order send off for the stuff that gets removed.

My problem is the life time of the models GW is giving them, cuz it feels to me that if i don't buy the model INMEDIATLY AS IT COMES OUT, then i wont get the most of it until GW says "didn't do well, scrap it and make a new one", if anything it makes me not wanting to buy models now... Those who buy are now submited to the overall market and sales that their only control is how good they do in game and even that is completly in the hands of the rules they get... It fucking sucks.

Two of the armies I had the most fun as hobby projects were Greenskinz (which disappeared in the first Orruk Warclans battletome) and Beasts of Chaos. The first one I started because I wanted to have an army of "normal orcs" to play in AOS. It was fun to go through these venerable kits and build them and paint them up to be MINE. The Beast of Chaos started, innocently enough during The Pandemic because I had managed to get a Start Collecting set and then the Broken Realms(?) Bullgor formation box at a discount, mainly just to paint up until earlier this year when my local shop was running a narrative fun AOS league then I decided to get them finished and onto the table. I still own both forces and I fully plan to keep them and all the other models from the list that I own. The idea has occured to me to use the Orc and Beasts as an opportunity to finally pull the trigger on One Page Rule and use them to see what that game has to offer me. All companies are obligated to keep themselves afloat, and though its disappointing when something goes away, it is a part of the process. I also have a not too small force of Dispossessed that I can easily fold into OPR as well. As an alien scientist of my acquaintance was fond of observing "There are always possibilities"

It’s sad about the Warcry stuff. Game started off looking like a cool chaos-AOS Necromunda thing, but GW bowed to pressure of people wanting to use other AOS stuff. And now it’s just a way to release new AOS models, more so if the chaos tribes are gone totally. Bit of a shame, I really wanted them to do deeper into each tribe. Cool characters, cavalry options, unique realm themed monsters.

It's interesting that Aventis Firestrike was included in an ability in the new Cities of Sigmar battletome, I wonder if that was an attempt to get people to pick some up as an ally. I thought it was such a cool idea but then I went and looked at the price of Aventis and it wasn't in my price range at the time. Hopefully no one is feeling frustrated having bought one recently. Still a beautiful kit though!

I think the biggest thing is now adays gw went from keeping stuff around way to long and never updating to all of a sudden dropping an ax and executing full lines all at once and changing things every three years as opposed to 5 to 20 years lol but if they just did it little by little I think it would hurt less

I think you make fair points that show part of the reason the decisions were made. Ultimately, I think it’s not going to set a good precedent and people are right to be upset. The reasons even in the most generous interpretation will make customers less confident in buying future products. I think it’s awesome that you steelmanned the opposing view on the topic and I hope people don’t bring too much hate your way.

As much as I understand & appreciate the business & storage end of the argument, it's not quite the same 1:1 here. Like your analogies to other business like lower selling lines of clothing, brand of snack foods, etc whatever...the difference is those consumer goods are not sold or promised as things that will "always be viable/always be playable or usable" in the system within which you're purchasing things like that. You know clothes won't last forever and go out of style, consumables get...well...consumed, and then are gone. GW sells armies under the pretense that, yes they're pretty expensive for unbuilt, unpainted plastic...but then you'll always have them for your army & you'll always be able to use them. If anything, since this is CLEARLY not the case, then they need to be more upfront with consumers (especially newer players) about the fact that once you buy all these boxes and spend all the time & effort on them, we could just yank & retire them/render them obsolete at any point...and not even for balance or rules reasons, just simply because there's a couple more bucks to be made elsewhere. If they were more honest about this, it'd be much less "feels-bad". Of course they won't do this, because putting that disclaimer on their expensive boxes of grey plastic would result in FAR fewer sales, so, that's why I think it ends up looking shady & dishonest to so many people

What about Dark Elves. As a legendary army not currently being in the The Old world main lists, do you think the kits are being removed to be re released with an updated army book in the future.

No, it’s completely fair to be mad

Aventis is my favorite Stormcast Model

It's not good. Makes customers unsure about investing in GW stuff. They now do this regularly. It's not about rules it's about miniature collections being invested in and then made impossible to complete. If stuff is not selling fast enough, warn the customers, give them 3 months warning, watch them sell out as customers finish off collections as a priority. GW happy, customers happy. As it is, you get a weeks notice that all the stuff that has been out of stock for a month is disappearing. What remains will be snapped up by eBayers who will successfully sell them at 3 times the price GW couldn't sell them at. To miniature collectors. I think GW could afford to make a few less than optimal business moves that keep the fan base happy, loyal and spending money with GW for the rest of their lives. They don't have any serious competition. Yet.

Hey Andy, I really value your channel and I can say you've encouraged me in my painting and modelling journey. But I don't see the logic here in releasing a video to defend games workshop. I know you said it was a feels bad moment but overall you justified the decision purely from the standpoint of GW's profitability. But as you said, GW is a very profitable company already and basically holds a semi monopoly in tabletop miniatures. The argument about warehouse space comes across as very narrow minded, not only because GW is so profitable but also because i feel like there could be other options, either when it comes to honesty and clarity of communication or in making the models MTO or something. I understand we don't want negativity in the hobby but I don't see how this video helps because people's feelings are valid and GW's reasons are for narrow self interest, and not the interests of the hobby.

About the stormcasts not selling; I think it was in big part down to bad rules, and bad rules made no one want to invest. It’s like the gorgeous angel lady from the 3.0 start box; she was just so bad no one wanted her

I kind of feel like dropping AoS. Now i have a fair amount of models that get removed from my army, but at least its not the 2100 Australian Dollars going into the bin i have seen on 1 video. Thats a hefty price to be simply thrown into the bin imo.

I have used firestrike in a 1 day tournament last year, she was a beautiful model with good rules. I have a picture of her on the tabletop......oooh rare

Its funny you say that only the Tzeench stuff is taken for BoC, because I don't own anything Tzeench. Only recently got the Slaangor because I have HoS. My army was....gors...gors...gors...ungors...ungor raiders...bullgors. Then you know, the good ol' Cockatrice battle chicken sculpt and a gargant. It works well. Swarm em and make em fight last!

Some Minis like Aventis Firestrike or the Prosecutors, I am sure, did not sell well, because the rules were crappy. They were basically unplayable in matched play. This could be fixed easily.

Really odd that they kept the crappy looking skaven plague monk kit. But I guess they have a warehouse full of them.

I like the balanced view you've given, as clearly there's a lot of conflicting feelings, as the Stormcast Eternals are probably my favourite faction in all of Warhammer (and I've been playing on-off since the late 90s, but consistently since 2014). I'm obviously gutted for the people who are losing their entire armies for the game system. I adored the original Stormcast and the Sacrosanct chambers - I painted over 5k points worth of Celestial Vindicators with those models (and the Vanguard stuff - which I think is so cool, but doesn't really fit the narrative for Celestial Vindicators!), particulalry the robes look. But when the Thunderstrike stuff came out, as a better painter, I rebooted my army, and have painted 10 Vindictors and the Knight Relictor so far, and haven't played many games. I have also really struggled with the robed Stormcast for how I wanted them to look - the same as the 1st iteration of the army (red and purple), or something different? And I never worked it out. But whilst sad, I am absolutely so keen for the new liberators as they're one of my favourite units, and why I jumped on AoS after Fantasy was discontinued. Don't worry though - I'm trying Old World with Bretonnians, with a fiefdom inspired by Baratheons and old Scottish lords and nobles history.

I’ve got a couple of units from my slaves to darkness army that are no longer supported, I never play in tournaments so I’m happy to use them in casual games. It’s a little annoying but I don’t mind too much at the end of the day, especially with some new stuff coming out, gives me more of an excuse to expand them 👌🏻

I'm new to the hobby and I was sad that I was missing out on Age of Sigmar and didn't know what to buy. But since you really liked the Aventis I found one on ebay and got it. I don't care about stats and tournaments. If I think the model is cool I'll make it cool on my table. I play alone. So I can make up any stats I want. :)

Great video! Great insight! Thank you!

So speaking on the SCE removals, I think the anger comes from a lack of info from GW. My assumption too was like yours, that the kits are being removed and replaced with Thunderstrike versions - and Knight characters will probably end up as a single, multi-use kit, along the lines of the Primaris Captain kit. And my assumption is because when GW announced the retirement of the firstborn kits last year (scout, terminators, jump pack marines), we saw the same outcry of anger, but if GW had just said "these are coming back in Primaris scale, but if you want to use firstborn as proxies, that's fine too" then they would've avoided the issue then - and they would avoid the issue now. And I base this on basically not hearing the same anger from Skaven players. They expect the range refresh, and while some are sad to see the old kits going from a nostalgia perspective, it's not anger. Beyond this though, I don't have an excuse for BOC or Bonesplitta players, it just sucks. I'm sure I did read in the article that they are indeed being repackaged once again for The Old World, but if that's not the game they play, then yeah, it's just no consolation. I also agree with you about the reasoning for the WarCry stuff leaving (and I think they even implied it, as the Dark Path Savagers kit isn't being retired) but while they may be used as generic marauders, it does suck that they're losing their individual flavour. It would also be REALLY useful if GW addressed the question on whether they're just removing the rules from AOS, but the models will remain for sale for WarCry, or if they're also retiring the models themselves. Anyway, just my 2c. My army wasn't affected (well, technically 1 model was removed: Madcap Shaman) but my thoughts on where the anger should be directed, as well as my assumptions. I may very well be wrong about SCE, but again, GW should do better with their comms.

I think GW could be more elegant about this stuff, I suppose. Some other games I have played had one or two datasheets which could be used to represent multiple models, with the right wargear options. This could be something for the Stormcast. For the Beasts of Chaos… “business logic” has no reason to find sympathy in the individual here, I think. Arcane Journal style products for situations like this would help (talking about the physical style of them). Like a more legitimate Legends, even if the rules are bad. Bit rambley, sorry.

I don’t play AOS, and won’t now for sure, but I really feel for players over this screw over,

I wanna bring a beam of light about Aventis: one of my friends takes him in most of his lists since he started playing AoS in 3rd ed. He just loves this guy so much and it's like his staple even if he does not so much in games

It would reduce the sting slightly if they would discount any models going away. Big box stores discount stock they want to discontinue and get rid of. Does GW just throw them out or send them to a recycler so they can claim a financial loss?

All good and true things. I've always been curious what the process is on the design element for the products. As much time and effort that goes into bringing products to market, for them to at times makes me wonder where they missed the mark. You can't please everyone all the time, but when something is blatantly unpopular you have to wonder what got missed in the development process.

I know I've made a couple comments in here, but I keep finding new ones I disagree with. Skaven are not being completely replaced, it's not even majorly, the most that will be replaced is 10 models, they're removing 18 so you're closer to half. Also they're removing the support for the underworld characters I literally just bought two boxes like 4 months ago 3 months ago, they will not be supported in age of sigmar pisses me off

They want more MONEY.

I play 40k rather than AoS, so this didn't directly affect me. That said, I had plans to buy a contemptor Dreadnought for my Chaos Marines the weekend before they were announced as being sent to legends for 40k, and when I got to my local game store, they had a couple of other boxes that had been out of stock for months so I decided to get those first. If I had bought that Dreadnought I would have been super mad. We just had a few weeks warning before it went to legends. AoS players are getting over a year. I absolutely get being bummed about losing them, especially if they're your main army, but at least you know that you need to buy any you want as display pieces now, and you are up against the clock to use them. At least this time around there's advance notice. That's a massive step in the right direction.

5:40 This is so true. I, too, have always thought that the Tauralon is an amazing piece.. Never bought it for myself, basically never see anyone post a picture of it, never see it in games. ; /

Well here's an idea LOWER THE FUCKING PRICE!!!!!! Like the AVENTIS FIRESTRIKE is $130 for one figure! Who the hell can afford that or and the fact that as of right now they're sold out!!! Now I can understand if they discontinue things, but to make them non tournament after the summer of 2025 is another punch in the gut! That means that everyone that did spend the money for these models are just SCREWED and should've just burned their cash. So in the end GW is nothing but a cash grabbing company that takes advantage of the player base because they've made their money and don't care about the player base.

I think one of the issues here is the idea of people's existing collection of models being "invalid" for play, and so, if they want to keep playing, they have to buy a new army. I think this idea comes from the switch from firstborn to Primaris marines where Primaris, instead of being simply new designs of space marines, were presented as being different space marines, with different rules. Therefore there's the idea that you can't use old firstborn tactical marines as new Primaris intercessors. I think this is the key idea that we have to knock on the head. "Counts-as" should be something that is fine in any type of game, whether that is tournament or casual play, as long as it isn't confusing for the other player, and so old firstborn marines with bolters should be able to "count-as" new primaris marines with bolters. And the same applies to whatever stormcast eternal models/units have been discontinued - let people play with their existing collection of models, and make reasonable and liberal use of "counts-as".

some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours curating these armies, so maybe GW should take the hit on the chin, after all it is their decision.

From my experience the warcry units tended to be very popular and difficult to find, even online. There were a couple that didn't sell great, but that's because their rules were so bad, they basically didn't have rules.

Good video as always Andy. I was apprehensive - but you know your market. I have never been more happy to be proven wrong. Excellent take and taken well by most.

You did a good job of explaining the situation. GW would have been better served if they had done some explaining. If they had stated what they plan to do with Warcry, that would have helped. If they had indicated which models they were updating and told us that we could continue using our older models if we wished, they might lose some sales, but gain loyalty from more customers.

It is on a flight stand and it seems to be grayish black. Would like to know what it is I might want to get one. Thanks

you're not alone with Firestrike, great model but I have never seen it on a table, the store managers I know have never sold one off the shelf. Though one thing I noticed, the unnamed character alt build of that kit was not listed on the list of things going away... so maybe the character is but the unnamed leader unit isn't?

I do enjoy hearing your insight in this! I'm just happy i'm getting new rats and cannot wait for your videos 🐀

Thank you for your opinion and for me it’s clarification. Whether I like it or not it’s sound and logical. Thanks.

Which River island shop, i used to delivery for them, travelled over from MK warehouse to Dublin and a few stores nearby. I think you are talking complete sense mate if it's not selling, they have to get rid so they can keep going and innovate new stuff

Yeah the negativity is totally fair at this point. This is their business model. Did it with marines. Do it with every book invalidated before release. I’m over it. Been playing for 30 years now and I’m not doing it anymore. They bloated the range themselves. Not the customer. Hell I can’t even get the Old World rule books from my local game store for being out since the game came out. Why should anyone accept this kind of service for our hard earned money?

I can appreciate you trying to play Devils Advocate and explain things from a modeling point of view and kits being available or unavailable moving forward for people to buy. However, I feel the biggest issue is all the people that have spent so much time, money and effort putting forces together, sometimes of kits less than 2 years old, and now they've been told that within 18 months they won't be able to use them officially and from then onwards it'll get harder and harder to get opponents to accept those units are still balanced enough to use non competitively. Nobody should be able to spend the money the GW side of the hobby requires only to be told their collection is useless in the game they want to or can play and if they want to carry on playing they have to do it all again. Not everyone can afford to switch their money, time and efforts to another collection straight away (especially at GW prices) and not everyone is in a community that means switching to a different game system is possible too. Rules should only be removed if they are replaced with a better fitting set of rules, like one that can allow fielding most/all of the Warcry Warbands or something as one unit of 9 or 10 that count as having melee attacks and can be given flexible upgrades maybe. Or with Stormcast just a generic Stormcast unit that can be armed with hand weapon n shield, great weapon or two hand weapons one unit to replace about ten current unit entries. But dont tell customer A who has spent all their disposable income and free time over the last 2 years building a force for Age of Sigmar that now they can't do that. Or even soon they can't. If they weren't going to be able to they shouldn't have been sold the stuff or at least warned this was at keast a future possibility. From outside of the company there is not 1 single acceptable reason why a customer shouldn't be able, and possibly even encouraged, to buy one collection they can play in both Age of Sigmar and Old World too. That is a BS issue that GW have created for themselves which isn't good for the customer or even GW as a business as a whole. This is all not good customer service and terrible for customer retention from a business point of view too. For every one customer who says OK I'll collect something else instead or use them to play another game you'll lose at least one customer permanently who'll move away from GW possibly more than that. There's also no guarantee that the ones you retain wouldn't have moved onto playing that other game or collecting that other army anyway. Maybe they'll do it slightly quicker, maybe not. If a range isn't selling then fine, stop selling it. Don't sacrifice it to encourage alternative sales (like the Warcry warbands to encourage the new miniatures being bought when they come out) or to create some BS separation between fantasy setting game A and fantasy setting game B that already will share other models anyway (Beastmen). And never willingly choose to do the dirty on your customers who have paid you what they can by removing rules without replacement so they can no longer engage with your products in the way your company encouraged them to do in the first place. There is a lot that stinks about this and the way its been delivered and packaged is absolutely horrible. I am hoping none of what I've said has come across as an attack on you. You're a great contributer and have provided a real balanced look at one of the issues this revolves around. I don't think it's as simple as GW always keeps everything that sells though. That's the one disagreement I had with what you said on the video. GW will sacrifice making money on one product if they believe it could lead to them making more money on an alternative or replacement product. Regardless of what harm that does to their customers, their reputation or their own long term goals and aims. Everything with GW these days is 100% geared around increasing income in the short to medium term. Long term is another person's problem.

The tauralon was a beautiful kit ruined by a terrible head. That was the overriding conversation when the kit first appeared. There was lots of talk about converting but most people including myself just didn't bother. Also now we have dragons including the Awesome Ionus model which Aventis could make a decent proxy for.

I get why they do it... but if a model doesn't sell 1 stop putting it in every box set going, stormcast models have been well over rammed down peoples throats and 2 if its not selling give it good rules, I don't know a single person who likes the teclis model but when he is good people play him... wich means buying him. I'm not a fan of stormcast at all but I do feel sorry for people who can't use there stuff that's only 6 years old, updated models sure, combine some units if you have to because the book is so bloated but flat removal on that stuff is a bit harsh