I never realize that the word “Sith” was referenced in the original trilogy. On merchandise from back in the day, Vader was referred to as a “Dark Lord of the Sith”. Like I said, I never noticed that not being mentioned in the OG films; I just assumed it was in there somewhere,
I remember when I was a kid, I would watch the trilogy over and over again, trying to learn as much as I could about the Force and what it truly meant. Each time I watched it with fresh eyes, challenging my presumptions. I'd look in dictionaries and encyclopedias to research religions and terms, trying to figure out where George Lucas got his inspiration from. By the time the Jedi were fully explained in the books, I was already a master.
I remember the toys at the time having Vader's title as "Dark Lord of the Sith", but we didn't know what that meant, it just sounded kinda cool...It took us awhile, but we finally got the full story!
Sith meant, "The Since"; meaning, a race and religion from a long ago era. Since Dark Side Force-users were last known to have existed over 1000 years ago, anything related to them was always seen as something from the distance of time and place.
@@anthonyyoutubefan7567, the word "sith" actually used to mean "since" in English, as did "sin". Geoffrey Chaucer uses these words in the Canterburry Tales.
@@anthonyyoutubefan7567 "Sith" does show up in Old English (Shakespeare also uses it once), but it's equally probable that Lucas got the word from an alien insect that appears in John Carter of Mars (which also has the word "Banths")...which was much closer to his sources!
As I recall, as of the original movie's scripting, "The Emperor" was more a politician, who used Vader and his power as a tool for his own ends, than being a Sith Lord in his own right... but when Lucas expanded the plot, which also included making Vader Luke's father, he also made the Emperor into a supreme paragon of the Dark Side...
@@daggerhell99 probably because the empire wouldn't have worked like that in the original script. In real life if a general murdered the president he wouldn't become the new president
From what I can remember about the original movies the emperor didn’t really become the “dark paragon of the dark side” until return of the jedi.. which in empire vader wanted Luke to join him in taking down the emperor, but in rotj he basically said the emperor is too powerful
Sorry OP but all of that is incorrect. The Lucas written novelization of A New Hope included details about Palpatine, and making Vader Luke's father was the idea of the director of Empire Strikes Back, not Lucas.
I actually knew Vader was a Sith before ever seeing A New Hope. It’s how he is described on the Burger Chef promo poster, which I had even before seeing the film. I remember asking my Mom what a Sith was. As you might imagine, my Mom hadn’t a clue. In 1977 we had to try to figure out a lot of backstory on our own.
Technically the word sith wasn't said on screen until episode 1 but Darth Vader was always referred to, even so in writing, as dark lord of the sith. And not just in books but on his action figures and other star wars media
I first saw it on, of all things, a commemorative Empire Strikes Back glass Burger King were selling, showing Vader and Boba Fett together. A short bio on the back of the glass referred to Vader as the Lord of the Sith. I still have that glass today.
Vader was often referred to as a/the Dark Lord Of The Sith in publicity for the first movie. It was never elaborated on. It didn't seem to arouse much curiosity among fans. As far as titles went, people were far more intrigued by what a Moff was and what in particular made one Grand.
Not even George was able to predict the success of Star Wars. That was why he had Alan Dean Foster write Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which likely would have been the sequel had Star Wars not become the huge hit it was. Granted, I am sure he had some inkling of what he had on his hands, considering his focus on the merchandising rights, but still not on the scale it became.
@@samanthaadams619 Yeah, it was odd that there were references of Darth Vader being a Sith Lord in the storybook from the first film back in 77/78 when I got the book. I was just under 10 and had no real info on the Sith other than the storybook and a few other brief mentions
This has always been one of Star Wars's greatest strengths and weakness. There is so much material outside of the movies that you can deep dive into whatever through the comics and books. But on the other hand, it's really annoying that they have to constantly patch the plots holes with them.
Regardless, at the end of the day it creates a lot of open ends to add history and more stories for us to dive into on our exploration of a galaxy far far away
I used to mock Cassio Tagge, but now I realize. He was one of the most dedicated, capable and level headed imperial officers out there. I am truly humbled by his integrity and courage in that corrupt, hostile office environment.
Found my copy of the 1976 novel last night and it mentions Vader as a Sith Lord almost immediately when describing him. What is interesting is when it desribes Vader's general appearance, the wording implies *all* sith lords looked/dressed the same as Vader. As in he was but one of many who wandered about wearing black and a face mask.
And from then on in the Legends spinoff stories that kinda continued to be the case! The Kotor games had a BUNCH of sith who wore facemasks, and Ive seen no shortage of sith lords wearing masks in other star wars media. Not all, mind you, but most of the named important Sith lords
If I remember right, there were still shot from the movie in the center of the novel and they have one with the caption “Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith.” It’s been over 40 years but I remember that for some reason.
@@stuartbagley2586 No not in the 1976 edition I have. They do have short character summaries in the photo section, but with Vader's no mention made there of Sith. They used the headshot still of him from the deleted scene with Bast - which was one of the more common headshot they used for him back then.
@@jasemalvis2140 As I recall, Revan and Malak did wear masks not unlike Vader's - and in the Disney sequels, Kylo Ren's mask is almost an exact replica of Revan's. It took a long time for the Expanded Universe to decide exactly what the Sith looked like. Originally there was the Noghri species, which was introduced as a race of Imperial bodyguards in Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy in 1991. Supposedly, the vaguely death's-head facial features of the Noghri were supposed to have inspired the look of Darth Vader's mask, until it was revealed that Vader already had his mask when he first encountered the Noghri. Then, several years later, it was decided that the Sith were a group of Dark Side cultists of many different species (mostly humans) who had appropriated the culture of an alien species from Korriban also called the Sith. I remember that a making-of book about THE PHANTOM MENACE showed that many Sith tattooed their faces, and that Darth Maul took this to the extreme.
Maybe it’s referring to the white skin, notice how him and palpatine have it but we didn’t know why in the OT maybe that was originally caused by the dark side in early drafts, and mauls early concept was similar to mother talzen and dooku was similar to ventress and both of them have pale white skin.
I find it also interesting to hear General Tagge criticizing the enormous budget used by the Death Star project. Throughout the series and novels, we've seen the Navy criticize the misuse of budget that should instead be used on star destroyers (Catalyst and Thrawn: Treason novels) or better and more durable fighters (Rebels). It's interesting to see that the Imperial Army is also feeling the pressure, and that Lucas was already envisioning the internal disagreement around the Death Star within the Imperial forces from the very beginning (1977).
@@scottianson5133 There's enough in the dialogue to suggest the Empire would crumble without the Death Star. "Fear will keep the systems in line. Fear of this battlestation". The impression I got way back then was that Luke and his pals would be hyping off around the galaxy getting into all sorts of post-empire adventures. Probably crossing paths with Darth Vader on a regular basis ( "You killed my father", "You bleey up my planet", "You planted a homing beacon in my ship" ) in a series of fun space romps. By the way, thanks for the SW77 moniker, I much prefer it to "A New Hope" or "The Original movie".
Not really, the fear will keep them in line is after they remove the senate. Without the detahstar they could either just have more str destroyers to bombard people to death or they could have the senate.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Well, that was before the prequels and sequels, when I thought the series was going to be about the fantastic adventures of a farm boy turned galactic warrior, rather than having the focus slowly changed until the 9 films actually end up being all about Palpatine and his attempts to produce a side-kick/heir.
@@DaPhunkPhenomena I read many of Alan Dean Foster's sci fi adaptions over the years as well as his original novels. Splinter of the Minds Eye, The Black Hole, Krull, The Last Starfighter and the his Spellsinger series were my favourites. In no particular order. Many of his other works have also entertained me. A very accomplished, but possibly underrated author.
He was also a shit writer who was saved by his editors and the studio telling him "no." Once Lucas got the power to do anything he wanted, we got "I hate sand." Lucas was great at coming up with imaginative ideas, I won't dispute that. But it was the OTHER people he worked with (even his own wife, who edited the hell out of the original film's script) who actually had the talent to bring those ideas to life.
It still amazes me that over 40 years later and Star Wars is still the biggest franchise in history. So much depth, so much lore, and so much passion. Thank you George Lucas for everything. Wizard.
@@SonicTheHedgehog-mh6uw Ask any random person what they know about Star Wars. Then ask them what they know about Pokémon. There’s your answer. (Hint: most people will know more about Star Wars than Pokémon)
Years before the prequels came out, there was a rumor going around that Lucas’ original outline for the first film was going to be the story of the rise fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker all in one film, but that Lucas decided it was too much for one film and he decided to break it up into at least six films, but possibly as many as nine movies with Luke taking Anakin’s place in parts 7-9. Hence why toys released years before the prequels came with backstories on the back of the box that said things like “Obi Wan and Vader had an legendary duel on a volcanic planet that left Vader crippled and in need of a robotic suit”
Lucas had a whole heap of ideas originally. Luke was to be the new Flash Gordon. Lucas had tried and failed to secure the rights to the old 1930s serial and decided to make his own version. As the original novel states, the whole rescue the princess and blow up the baddies was "From the adventures of Luke Skywalker." Luke was also female at one point, as can be clearly seen in one of Ralph McQuarrie's concept paintings. The impression from the novelisation is that The Empire will be mortally wounded by the destruction of the Death Star, and even more so by the death of Tarkin. It's never stated as such, but Tarkin seems to have been manipulating the doddery old Emperor to get as much power fir himself.
I remember reading that, in some childrens Scholastic, or Highlights magazine, and this was in 1980. But even then, it went into detail of 9 movies, how it was lined out. But in that magazine, that was the first time I heard of "Sith Lord".
Sometime from the release of *STAR WARS* in 1977 to the release of *THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK* in 1980, George Lucas commented publicly he had a story outline that would cover nine separate movies. The first two movies in '77 and '80, plus *RETURN OF THE JEDI* in 1983, would be the middle three of the nine.
I feel like Alderaan watching this footage, completely blown away. I've seen a lot of deleted scenes from the OT over years including the Moff Jerjerrod scene you mentioned and the Luke Skywalker lightsabre construction scene from RotJ, but this is amazing. I can't believe nearly 45 years since it's release that there is still unseen footage of this quality and concern key characters still emerging. I also never realised that the Sith weren't actually mentioned by name in the OT (good spot there), and these extra bits of dialogue would have been great had they been left in. Thanks for posting, that made my day.
I was 6 in 1977 and my parents got me out of school early to go see it. It was the star destroyer in the opening scene - not Vader's entrance later - that has always stuck with me. The sense of _size_ Lucas was able to convey with models.
There was a VHS release of the original trilogy in the 90s (hard to find now) that had a lot of behind the scenes interviews with Lucas. He even described Anakin’s battle with Obiwan from Mustafar (years before ROTS filmed) and an ancient battle between Mandalore and the Jedi. For some reason I misunderstood it at the time and thought that Vader hired the Mandalorian army to take out most of the Jedi. What’s weird is that the story has evolved so that the Clones took out most of the Jedi, and the Clones were replicated from a Mandalorian foundling. And the armor, while not Beskar, has similarities. So it makes me wonder if the original plan did have Mandalore vs Jedi at the end of the Clone Wars, but then he changed it yo Clones vs Jedi. Who knows? And unfortunately… i can’t find that footage now.
@@PreppingWithSarge Check Star Wars the Annotated Screenplays. Many of the things from the prequels already existed in Lucas' mind prior to 1977. He had Mace Windu, dianoga, Journal of the Whills, Starkiller, Utaupu, and Mustafar in early versions of the scripts and the backstory/lore. Jedi were originally called the Jedi Bendu before he shortened it to just Jedi.
Cutting that line changes the context of Tagge's diatribe. Not only are the Imperials vulnerable to Rebel attack, the officers themselves are vulnerable to losing their positions or dying at Vader's hands or because of his perceived meddling.
The opening crawl of the a new hope originally had the phrase "dark lords of the sith" in it as well. I think it remained for the first couple drafts before it finally got cut out. The crawl made it sound like there were a bunch of sith that were the enforcers for the emperor (it didn't mention the emperor being one) and that Vader was the biggest and baddest of them all.
I think I saw it re-released in theaters sometime between 1995-1997. It was definitely before Phantom Menace was released. I think i was only about 5 or 6, at the time. The only memory I have was the Death Star battle.
Saw it in the theaters in ‘77- it was a whole new experience to someone who grew up walking ti the neighborhood theater every Sat-the attention to details-the look of grimy looking ships-so called “used future”- the sounds seeming to come from all around you-it was definitely different!
I saw Empire Strikes Back for the first time on its official release in 1980. Coming out of the cinema, my Dad bought me a copy of a fold out poster of Darth Vader, with lots of written backstory. "Dark Lord of the Sith" was very prominent in the wording and stood out for being sinister but unknown. I remember asking my Dad what "Sith" meant but he didn't know.
Vader was referred to as “The Dark Lord of the Sith” from the beginning. It’s mentioned in the novelization that was published before the film’s release and Vader was described as Dark Lord of the Sith in the Scolastic published Star Wars Storybook that coincided with the movie’s release.
I had that storybook! Also, I think the Burger King Star Wars glasses that came out alongside Empire had him referred to as Dark Lord of the Sith or something very similar. It was out there as long as I can remember. (Also in the 1990's Evan Dorkin's Milk and Cheese comic has them don Darth Vader helmets and refer to themselves as Dark Lords of the Sith as they wreak mayhem on their surroundings.)
It actually annoys me a bit that many of the details included in screenplays are scrapped before the filming even begins, and continue to exist - if at all - only in the films' promotional material. I realize, of course, that one of the main rules of screenwriting - and filmmaking - is "Show, don't tell." But audiences enjoy having an understanding of the strange new stuff they're seeing. What's interesting is that when a fictional story is heavily inspired by real - or at least realistic - events, the movie will indeed go into detail. THE GODFATHER, APOCALYPSE NOW, and GANGS OF NEW YORK are three films I can think of in which additional details are communicated to us either by a narrator or by a character speaking the movie's dialogue. It's supposedly a screenwriting no-no, but it can work if it's presented in a plausible manner.
The greatest stories are not told with every detail on show, they are revealed to you piece by piece, every step drawing you into the world that has been created for you. When you do unravel the mystery it opens your eyes, a wonderful feeling. This is why the original trilogy is superb. Storytelling is an art and George Lucas got it right in the final cut of Star Wars.
Even in the theatrical cuts, they managed to convey that Tagge was the smartest (or at least most pragmatic) man at the table and Jerjerod's loyalty clearly lies with the Emperor and not Vader. Tagge is an underrated character. Unlike most Imperial officers, he is smart and cautious and even willing to question Imperial tactics and priorities but not in a manner to get himself Force-choked. The only one who comes close to his sensibility is Adm. Piett, though he's more of a "if I keep my head down, don't make wave and do my job, I might keep living" type.
I do remember as a kid, I too thought his first name was Darth instead of Darth being a title for Sith Lords. It would be cool if they released an extended edition with some of this gems of deleted scenes to add just a smidgen more depth for the characters and story.
Obi-Wan even calls him, 'Darth' when they duel. Sounds kind of silly, now that all the baddies are named 'Darth xx' for some reason. Also, why have two titles? Everybody already calls him, 'Lord Vader'..
I remember the original Kenner action figures of Darth Vader describing him as Lord of the Sith. So the word was out there, but not widely known. Anyone who read the novelization of A New Hope would also have seen General Tagge's line about Vader being a Sith lord. I remember thinking the word Sith felt very sinister and evil. And this was before Return of the Jedi came out.
Yes, marvel comics was sued because of the graphic novel. Which came out 2 weeks before Empire strike back. And had the entire novel of storytelling with out deleted pictures
The word "Sith" may not have appeared in the original trilogy, but it was around way before any comics or books. I remember magazine articles and trading cards which were out during the original trilogy referring to Darth Vader as "Lord of the Sith".
while the sith weren't mentioned on film, right from the start we knew he was a sith lord from all the written stuff and merchandise. it was mentioned in the original novelization from '76.
But how many people really knew about Star Wars lore in 1976? It was out there but the vast majority of people didn't know anything about the Star Wars saga until they set foot in the theater in 1977.
@@DixiePokerAce the book was released just six months before the movie, and unless i'm mistaken sold out before the movie premiered. i could be entirely wrong, but by 1979 i think the novelization was in it's 30th printing. i'm certain marvel's comics mention the sith, and of course those were huge sellers. imo, anything involving pre-ESB counts as 'from the start.' you're right, few people outside the culture knew about SW before the movie, but before ESB was released we had *all* heard 'dark lord of the sith' many times. i'd thought it was used on one of the trading cards, but i can't find any examples of that so i'm thinking that may be a false memory.
I remember "Sith" from the book, but I'm not sure if it ever registered with me that the word never was used in the original trilogy. There's also the emperor's name. Palpatine was in the prologue of the novelisation, but never in any of the movies, until Episode 1.
I've seen this scene before. I wish it had been included in the movie. I love the fact that Tagge was unimpressed by, and suspect of, both Vader and Tarkin...and, that's what kept him alive. He wasn't on the Death Star, because he went to look for The Rebels on Dantooine. Actually, since 1977, he was known, in all of the other SW merchandise, as: Darth Vader, Lord Of The Sith. I hope he gets referred to that way in Obi-Wan Kenobi, by The Imperials and The Inquisitorius.
I have the original 1978 hardcover storybook and was floored to see “Sith” mentioned as I read it to my daughter. I always thought George coined that term for the Prequels 🤯
I don't know how I missed the fact that "sith" is never said in the original trilogy. It is interesting how they had that subplot with the general calling out how poor a plan the death star was but I see why they removed it, it might have forced them to bring the character back or create more of a backstory for him.
@@nowthatsjustducky The phrase appeared in magazine articles as well. It just seemed like some sinister underworld club, like the Masons or the Dr Who Appreciation Society.
@@zacmumblethunder7466 I like to think that someone thought it was a cool word, and made a note to further develop it into something big later... a preplanned retcon or something like that.
Another reason why they might've cut it is that the Death Star might've seemed less foreboding and the Rebel's victory ring hollower if the film depicted an Imp officer openly calling the whole idea of it stupid.
@@jeffbenton6183 I think you're spot on, there. The big re-edit involved jettisoning anything that didn't drive the main plot. There was a lot of dialogue filmed that, while not being exposition as such, went into more detail about the politics of the Empire. Most famously in the completely deleted scene where Luke talks to Biggs at the station. I waited 40+ years to see that scene, and when I did it was a mega disappointment.
There was a hard-bound visual book released in 1977 or 78 that had photos of the main characters with a small bio underneath each photo. Darth Vader was mentioned in this book as "A Sith Lord".
I seem to recall that most of the merchandising and magazine features, etc had some reference to him being _a_ or _the_ Dark Lord of the Sith. I also read that Darth had proven more popular than anyone expected and would feature more in future movies. It made him sound like a Moriarty to Luke's Sherlock, rather than the central figure of what would be six movies. Whether that was a publicity person's flight of fancy or one of George's passing ideas, who knows.
The Sith title is used in the 1976 novelisation of Star Wars, credited to Lucas but ghost written by Alan Dean Foster. So the fact Vader was a 'Dark Lord of the Sith' was surprisingly well known amongst Star Wars fandom, since the novel was a best seller. Admittedly more people saw the actual film itself, but the term 'Sith' was out there.
I can watch old and deleted scenes for ages! Thanks! Back in the 70's, I remember _Vader_ being identified as _The Lord of the Sith_ in magazines. Even _Famous Monsters_ #148 in 1978 called him _"Sith Lord"_ on the cover. Great clip! Again, _thanks!_ 🙋🏼♂️
I agree it would have really added lots of credibility to the whole story arc if this reference was included. Also it does definitely sound like vadar’s first name is darth when obi wan calls him it 🤣
It is, indeed, a bit strange such a simple line was omitted, as to the reference to the Sith. Maybe it was just to not have people scratching their heads, when it was never fully explained, but I like a bit of mystery on that level. Leaves me wanting to find out more about the universe.
That is because, at the time, it WAS his first name. "Darth" as a Sith title did not exist until "Darth Maul" and "Darth Sidious." Back when Vader and Anakin were separate characters, the Sith's actual birth name was "Darth Vader." First name Darth, last name Vader.
Kinda cool how this deleted footage lines up perfectly with modern characterization that Tarkin has in Rebels and Rogue one - a man who wants recognition, and who wants to take over the illogical super weapon, for his own ego. And his use of the weapon, ultimately makes the rebellion more popular, thus his actions escalate the conflict.
Despite all the extra content on DVD releases and all the books, comics, TV shows and games the Star Wars movie are so mysterious. We're constantly finding out new things about them.
This definitely would have added more context. I vaguely remember "Dark lord of the Sith" being used on some promotional material - action figure or poster book.
I was thinking the same thing - that description was definitely on something I had back in the days of the original release. I was thinking the cardboard for the action figure (Darth was my 2nd after Chewie), or I had a giant sized Marvel comic adaptation that went about 1/3 of the way through the movie - I may have seen it in there. Somehow not recalling the exact context of first seeing a phrase 45 years ago - I must be slipping!
I remember the first time I got to see Darth Vader. I was six years old when my Dad took me to see Star Wars shortly before Empire hit the theatre. From that point on Star Wars was always a strong bond between Dad and I. I didn't have to beg too much when we passed the toy store in the mall. Because he was having just as much fun as me.
The conference room scene on the Death Star is performed in its entirety in the NPR radio dramatization of Star Wars by Brian Daley. Aired in 1980 and co-produced by KUSC-FM Los Angeles. Also, “Tagge” is pronounced like “tag.”
The 1978 and 1980 Topps trading card sets also referred to Vader as "the Dark Lord of the Sith", despite the term never being uttered in the finished films. It was probably included in the story bibles used by those involved with producing tie-in materials at the time.
The mismatch between the actual movies-as-released and the surrounding merch universe really bugged me as an obsessive-compulsive kid. You watch a movie three times over a year and a half (this was pre-VHS of course) and then you see a Bossk action figure and a lizard that stormtroopers ride and you're like, "Wait, those weren't in the movie--who/what are those--OH MY GOD DID I MISS A PART?" One gets the feeling there are minor characters that are created and filmed and show up for a frame or two just to justify an action figure. I'm surprised there isn't a Biggs action figure (maybe there is now.)
The early-80s NPR radio version of Star Wars, A New Hope (13 eps) did include some of the dialog from these deleted scenes, and thus did identify Vader as Dark Lord of the Sith. I remember the word Sith baffling me a bit as a kid - I wondered if it was the name of a place or realm. Later, when its meaning became clear, I retroactively enjoyed having heard that word in the radio series.
I remember the "Star Wars" novelization (long before "A New Hope" was a thing) mentioning Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith. I also remember hearing General Tagge's name pronounced like "tag". I used to have a book of science-fiction comics called Star Toons, published in 1979. There was a cartoon of a stormtrooper and Vader sitting on some crates. Vader had some chunks of meat on his lightsaber and he was saying to the stormtrooper, "It's a sith-kebab. Any other questions?"
95% certain I heard it pronounced "tag" in the Star Wars radio drama. I've never heard it pronounced with a soft g until recent RU-vidrs. I'm gonna need an official source to prove otherwise, not just some randos pronouncing it that way.
I vividly remember there was a story book adoption of a new Hope when it was just simply called Star Wars, in the beginning of the book had the names and a brief summary of each character in the movie. I remember Darth Vader title was being “lord of the Sith“. Thank you for the video,You’ve certainly gained a new follower of this day
It's so cool that something that was done 45 years ago still has the kind of interest this movie has. Also, how just small details were often overlooked originally.
Wow - never knew this extra dialogue existed! Weird it was cut - I also didn’t know the EU background that Tagge survived. Much like the Jedi Council in the PT I always wanted to hear more from the imperials in that meeting. I’ve always found them fascinating lol Great videos!!
@@mcsmedia8081 Not exactly. They should know that’s their headcanon, but it also never was canon Disney purchase or not and I can prove it if you’d like to get specific. Those stories were not always compatible with George’s movies and vision because he wasn’t creatively involved. Even in the sense that was canon at all, George never considered them HIS Star Wars from his own mouth so it’s impossible to tell people “guess what? Here’s extra info about a thing George didn’t make so this must be true.” He let Lucasfilm hand out licenses, but it’s not the same
@@vintifada7115 If you are going to offer to prove someone's enjoyment of Star Wars and the EU as illegitimate, especially if you are going to attempt to disprove the legitimacy of the old EU by being an extreme purist with the definition of legitimate SW being what George Lucas himself wrote~ then you are trying much too hard and caring way, way too much. Let your enjoyment of Star Wars be yours, his be his, and mine be mine. We all love this work of art. I really enjoy vanilla Empire At War and Forces of Corruption~ but it is the moding community that really turned that game into something really really special. Let art be art and story telling be story telling. This is not the Council of Nicea and we are not deciding what is and is not biblical cannon for generations to come.
@@mcsmedia8081 It’s not about saying what George Lucas wrote is the only legitimate Star Wars, it’s not about saying don’t enjoy EU content, it’s not about saying you can’t have your headcanon. It’s about saying you don’t even know where George Lucas canon stops and your headcanon starts. You don’t even know you were never supposed to be able to make “I didn’t know” or “did you know” arguments based on admittedly GOOD stories from the EU. It’s another universe. The problem becomes important (bc who cares about Tagge) when the morality messages of one if not the most impactful stories of the 20th and early 21st centuries becomes changed and bastardized into something Lucas didn’t intend. People think he was trying to give one moral message when it was entirely another. All of these points build on another. It’s important to be clear don’t mix your story sources or you’ll change the meaning. And the best way to do that is to say look canon is canon bc that’s also the truth: EU is not canon despite how good and enjoyable it can be at times. And to have to do this is all bc I said “hey that Tagge survived is basically a theory” 🤔🤔🤔
The term "Sith" was used to refer to Darth Vader since way back in the 70s, even though it wasn't mentioned in the film, and not just in comics or novelizations.
The first time I was made aware of the Sith was reading The Empire Strikes Back comics. While they didn’t go into much detail at the time, it was apparent they were not just fallen Jedi, but held a completely different philosophy. So when Vader first walked down that ramp in Return of the Jedi, he was even more intimidating to me, as I knew what he allowed himself to become.
I don't remember the ESB comic--it must not have made a big impression on me; what I DID remember is that the first Star Wars comic about the first movie. For the powerhouse it eventually became, I always looked back on this comic and remembered how 'poor' the artwork was. No doubt, the creators of said comic probably thought it was going to be some low budget POS film with 'Corman' level effects etc...Little did they know they were catching lightning in as bottle.
@@nickmitsialis The original Star Wars. They started on it before the film was properly released, so had no idea what they had on their hands. It was such a hit that it saved Marvel. After they'd covered the original film, it made follow up comics very difficult to write, as they knew a sequel was likely but had no idea what would happen. Hence the characters wear the same clothes they had in the original film throughout, until the ESB comic was produced.
@@patriarch7237 Yes! While I never caught the clothing aspects of the post movie comics I do recall I was crazy for nearly anything tied in to SW, until ESB 'fixed in my mind' how things 'should be' and it immediately quashed any of the 'lesser' offerings; remember Admiral "Wermis", whom Vader was always grabbing by throat? Never happen once force choke became a 'thing'. Same with That dreadful 'Splinter in the Mind's Eye'. The thought Vader laughing like some mustache twirling villain (as he toyed with a light saber wielding Leia) or having his arm cut off by Luke was truly absurd in retrospect. But I do remember the TORTURE of waiting for the next movie to come out--Three years seemed like an eternity
Love this! This video takes me back to 1977, being 7-years old watching SW for the first time. From day one, Vader has been the most awesome villain in movie history.
That actor is THE first person to ever say Sith Lord, and it was sadly not mentioned in the original trilogy until the prequel. Not counting novels obviously.
Oh mentioning the SIth would a big deal, I remembering that Vader was just called a evil or dark Jedi as a kid. That and the Death Star was a bit of a gamble.
Apparently "REVEALS Darth Vader’s Backstory" = uses the word "Sith." Which, in 1977, revealed nothing. Still a neat bit, but title is a little click-baity.
“George Lucas always had a plan” >changed Leia from love interest to sister >changed force from invisible source of guidance to midichlorians >changed Yoda from being Obi Wan’s real master >changed Grievous multiple times
As amusing as this is, a plan in regards to stories doesn't necessarily mean having every single detail figured out and etched in stone. It simply means that the general vision and framework for the story is there. Many elements can be changed along the way. In this instance, its debunking the idea that the Sith were a prequel addition that had never been considered prior, when in reality it very much was planned.
Leia was going to be Luke's sister long before Return of the Jedi. Yoda said there is another and Leia since Luke's presence and heard his plea for help while hanging at Cloud City
Andor was literally one of the best things ever for star wars. I would put it just below episode 5, as the second best star wars content every created. The symbolism, everything in Andor is so well crafted
@@herroberbesserwisser7331 thanks, but given the damage done prior and the fact that the main protagonist fate is already known, it’s over for me… I no longer recognise Star Wars.
Zahn, in particular, used that term, I think, because "sith" hadn't been clearly defined and Lucasfilm wouldn't let him create a definition. So "dark Jedi' was a safer term
@@meganofsherwood3665 Vader was never described as a "Dark Jedi" in the Zahn Trilogy. Sith was even mentioned in the LucasArts "TIE Fighter" video game sequel to "X-Wing"...
@@TheJeremyHolloway correct, he never described Vader that way. He did, however, use the term for fallen Jedi & (I believe) other users of the dark side
Not necessarily. In the books, they often referred to Vader as th “dark lord of the Sith” and while palps was a stronger practitioner of the dark side they never called palps a Sith. It’s possible the title was originally ment to refer to a species Vader had ruled or defeated. Some say the nohgri were originally planned to be called Sith.
Thanks for this, always good to see Don Henderson (he was very well known here in the UK even then, always fun to watch). I seem to recall one of the books that came out before the PT was going to explain that the Sith were a race of creatures that worshipped Vader, but that Lucas made them change their name as he obviously had plans to explain it himself. It's amazing really how much of the lore and just names of things we were familiar with just aren't mentioned in the original trilogy.
@bonchbonch yes, Luke because of his pilot skills was to use a New Y wing type bomber not a X wing, which were flown by senior pilots. The ILM crew couldn't get the Y wing set up in time so Lucas switched Luke to a X wing pilot.
I love these deleted scenes of star wars. Who literally would had known all these small details behind the scenes to stitch star wars story merely together. I love it!
I remember being 10 or 11 talking to my neighborhood best friend and we were like 'dude isnt it cool how in episode 4 for a second luke mentions the clone wars. i do in some way find it refreshing that lucas truly did have the whole story done from the beginning because he truly cared about and loved his star wars story.
Everything about the Clone Wars was a retcon. That was just a throwaway line Lucas tossed in because he wanted to have something cool, edgy, and science-y in the dialogue - at the time artificial cloning was purely a theoretical concept. He had no notion of what the Clone Wars were about or why they were called that, it just sounded cool. The same way he threw in "parsecs" without understanding that that was a measure of distance, not time (and yes, I know people have retconned that too, but when he wrote it Lucas though it was a unit of time that sounded cool and science-y.)
Just because Lucas called Vader a "Sith Lord" all the way back then doesn't mean there was already any sort of meaning attched to it. And in fact - that is exactly what it is. The original idea for what a Sith is, is basically an elite guard for the emperor, with Vader being their leader. While for a long time in secondary media, Vader (and anyone on the dark side) was called a "Dark Jedi". Only now, as the term Sith has been defined as Dark Side "Jedi", does it look like Lucas had all this already in mind looking back at this footage.
George Lucas was a master at repurposing previous ideas and throwaway lines of dialogue by turning them into something that made it seem like that was always how it was always supposed to go. I think in his notes from the mid 70s the concept is written down that tthe sith were an army of darkside users, basically the anti-jedi. And No the emperor was not a Sith in the original draft.
Yeah, and the Clone Wars was originally just a throwaway line because Lucas wanted to throw in some science-y jargon. He had no earthly idea what the Clone Wars were about or why they were called that when he wrote that script. Probably not until he started writing the prequel scripts two decades later.
Love your content, I’ve been a fan since I watched the first film and have read so much of the novelizations to the point where I had to correct the announcer at pub trivia that it was an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer (Star Dreadnought, thank you X-Wing series), point being your content has consistently provided new things about the SWU, keep it up and I want to win PLEASE!!!
This is excellent, but the books go even further. The User's Guide to the Death Star describes Tarkin's goals in greater detail, his theory that a Doctrine of Terror could maintain control in the Empire without the Senate. It also mentions that the Emperor is fully on board with this plan, which I saw as Sith's greatest weakness. They were always more interested in being evil, causing pain and fear, than being successful rulers or wise tacticians. You also see it in the Kenobi show, where the Inquisitors and Vader spend so much time and effort on personal interests that they fail consistently against the far more organized rebels. Basically, the Empire was doomed to fail because it just didn't have the priorities needed to survive.
Ok the contrary he has very little planned. He had tons of ideas though. That he went back and forth between. And which he reused later. Basically and idea book full of names. Characters. Personas. Places. Things that could happen etc. And then basically he threw some of those together. Got budget to hire Ralph McQuarrie who drew up some concept pictures. George got inspired again by those. Went back to the script with designs and ideas by Ralph and new from him selves. Then just before the green light he finished throwing the script together. Filmed it. Put the movie together. Then after a test screening he and his wife needed to re edit it a lot. Change things last minute. And then get it out in last minute. So much for planning…
@@litjellyfish That was hardly a test screening. It was an unfinished cut of the film. No music, no special effects; George clearly wasn't going to put that version of it in theaters, no matter what his friends thought of it.
@@MrZackavelli sorry are you intending to replying to me? I mean what you tell is try but that has little to to do what I wrote about the whole process of how to movie came to be. This about the re-edit was just to further clarify that it was a lot of things that did not materialize up until very close to the movie’s release
"Dark Lord of the Sith" was mentioned in the old Star Wars Topps cards as well. Lucas probably cut the scene and never realized that was the only mention of it.
Talking about the sith was probably cut to keep the audience curious about who Vader is and his relationship to Obi-Wan and other characters, mentioning the sith would distract from that making the audience curious about what the sith is rather than who Vader is.
Vader actually doesn't have any official rank in the Empire. He is just seen as the Emperor's enforcer and only has as much authority as the Emperor gives him depending on whatever task he is on at the moment.
@@gzaros Tarkin gets special treatment in the Empire beyond being a Grand Moff. The Emperor instructed Vader to obey Tarkin when it relates to the Death Star. This is why Vader is obeying him in A New Hope.
Your work and research on this information to create this work of art is fabulous, so fans now and future alike can enjoy it is absolutely fantastic idea. You can tell on the finished product that you are not just interested, this is also your passion. To bad they didn’t leave some of this in the original movie. Perhaps one day we will have an actual light saber that works in real life, all based off the ancient art form of the Samurai Warrior!! What a great inspiration they are to this movie.
Stuff like this is why I have always wished for an "Ultimate Edition" that would reincorporate the deleted footage into the film. This scene, Luke talking to Biggs on Tatooine, and various other omitted scenes throughout the films would make the experience so much better, either by adding exposition or by giving new context and weight to other scenes (for example, Biggs' death becomes much more impactful if we first see him on Tatooine and get a real sense of how close he and Luke really are).
Yes and let’s also add the scene just before battle of Yavin where Luke talks with Biggs and an elder pilot mentions he knew Luke’s father and that he was with him when he died. So we can once and for all cement that it was not planned from stsrt that Vader = Anakin
Vader was known as “Dark Lord of the Sith” in the trading cards, Marvel comics, toys, pretty much everywhere but in the movie. We all knew him as a Sith Lord in 1977. We just didn’t exactly know what that meant. 👍🏻 MTFBWY
Im glad they edited out the "sith." It makes more sense for basically no one except force users to know what sith are. Wish they had kept the bit about tarkins ego since thst does actually fit really nicely.
The word "sith" not only came from novels before we first saw "The Phantom Menace", it was also canon from various videogames (Dark Forces 2 Addon "edi Knight: "Mysteries of the Sith")
I'm old enough to be one of the very fortunate ones to have seen Star Wars when it first came out in 1977. Seeing it back then was epic and just mindblowing. You have to think that Star Wars wasn't yet a thing at this time. The film was playing and blowing everyone away to the point where you wanted to see it again and again. It was fresh and no one had ever seen anything like it before. It's become way too over the top now which is sad. The original trilogy will always be my favourite.
