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Federer 1st Serve (Rear View) | Master Class

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Roger Federer doesn't hit the FASTEST 1st serves on the tour but one thing he does do is not get broken very often. In this Master Class video I break down Roger's 1st Serve, some of the key checkpoints to look for and add a bonus tip at the very end. Enjoy the footage! JF
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=== SERVE ANALYSIS===
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17 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 121

@markbayasen448 3 года назад

Thank you very much for this video. It shows what are mentioned in other videos that were not made clear. For instance, in a video by Rope Tennis and Golf, it was mentioned that Federer and Roddick, unlike most other professional tennis players, don't actively make the racket drop using their arm by folding their elbow, instead they do what professional pitchers do which is arm cocking. This video, it is argued that Roddick and Federer maintain a 90 degree angle of the elbow (upper arm and forearm makes an 'L' shape). Your video is clearly showing no folding of Federer's elbow .The racket drop in Roddick's and Federer's serve is accomplished by the full body rotation initiated by the leg drive. This body rotation initiates the elbow to go forward and up, makes the arm externally rotate; in this position, starting from the trophy pose, the 90 degree angle is maintained. The Rope video argues that this is observed among pro baseball pitchers and only very few tennis players including Federer and Roddick do it. The benefit of this type of serving is less effort by the shoulder/arm and less prone to injury, Rope video concludes. As far as the Federer's hand above the elbow prior to impact, true, this is not the optimal but it is a limitation of his external arm rotation rather than a flaw. Somax (Roddick's serve analysis) video explained beautifully that the biggest servers like Roddick has the best external arm rotation measuring 127 degrees prior to impact( Federer 82 degrees, Nadal 79 degrees, etc.); it is argued that for every degree of external arm rotation you add prior to impact, you add a mile of speed to your serve. I have really enjoyed your videos including Federer's kick serve analysis. In this particularly video (something not clearly shown on other videos of the same subject), now I know where Federer's toss is in relation to the baseline, his follow-through and the trajectory of the ball after impact. Hope you come up with more videos.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Great insight Mark, thanks for your comment! The "launching" is a big factor in assisting with the racquet drop into the slaught. Many reps, a loose grip and good timing also help! JF

@tomsd8656 7 месяцев назад

You mentioned Federer's racquet drop with the hand above the elbow. I believe it's because Federer had a bad back. He had to play with his limitation. Try pushing that elbow upward and you'd feel it in your back. For rec players, we don't need to kill our back to try to have elbow above the hand. If it's good enough for Federer, it's more than enough for us.

@topspintennis 5 месяцев назад

That could be. I could also be that he doesn't have the shoulder dexterity that someone like Djokovic does. Federer was obviously one of of the best servers in the history of the game, I don't believe this position is a flaw in his game, simple an intricacy that I wanted to point out. JF

@ellenlee8297 2 года назад

This video is extremely helpful. I am a beginner server and have watched many videos on serving, this one with your talk through explanations i can finally visualize & see in my head exactly what to do. Thank you!!

@topspintennis 2 года назад

Great to hear! I will be creating more videos like this in the future. Thanks for your comment and support! JF

@Marko777ify 2 года назад

Nice analysis. Thing is, extreme external rotation can lead to a shoulder injury just as much as internal rotation. Federer knows what he's doing.

@topspintennis Год назад

I'm not sure on the kinesiology and how the anatomy plays into this; I just know Federer is efficient with this motion and their are certain check points that need to be met to mimic his motion. I appreciate your comment and support! JF

@vicmulyk5775 3 года назад

Good point regarding hand height versus elbow, then showing Wawrinka's motion. This is the serve I was practicing today.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Excellent! It's a lot easier to see in Super Slow Motion. Keep me posted on your progress! JF

@suman28111981 2 месяца назад

I like your videos. One thing I’d like to suggest is for people who are left eye dominant versus right eye. Their positions are different. Also, I feel serving to the deuce side versus the ad side is slightly different on how your body mechanics work. Maybe your tutorials can be better customized based on that. Just my 2 cents to help improve the community. I’m always looking to improve my serves every time I practice for effortless power! But thank you for analysis! Love your videos

@dr.timothyp.charltonmd4500 3 года назад

Nice video. The comparison of Stan to Federer at racquet drop just shows greater external rotation at the shoulder. That’s it. Some athletes have more. Some have less. Not a flaw in the serve.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

That seems to be a reoccurring theme in this comparison. Thanks for your comment and insight! JF

@AirGuitar 3 года назад

The hand above the elbow is just Federer's level of shoulder flexibility. His shoulder simply isn't as flexible as a lot of other servers on the tour. Wawrinka and Djokovic have very flexible shoulders that allow the hand to go below the elbow. In my opinion, as long as you can lead on edge and keep the motion fast and fluid, then it's fine.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

I would agree. His placement is probably better than anyone else's in the game. Thanks for your comment! JF

@juicetest 8 месяцев назад

good tip on right shoulder alignment coach, love effortless pop

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for your comment! JF

@cjcycledude 3 года назад

A few things you didn't mention that are important are how Federer remains at 45 degrees when he hits the ball (he doesn't come around and open up to the court/his opponent too soon) and his left arm is tucked into his chest to act as a reactionary brake making his right arm come through faster. This all leads to a faster serve!

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Thanks for your comment and insight Carl. There are a lot of moving parts, I'm glad you pointed this out! JF

@laurencecorray 3 года назад

Hits the ball at 45 degrees.Very important observation. It gives you the whip effect

@kelvinwong3779 3 года назад

What an awesome video

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

I'm glad you enjoyed it! JF

@James-op9ud 3 года назад

Swing racket on edge- simply the most insightful tip, THANK YOU!

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Happy to help! It has helped me a lot on my serve. Thanks for your comment! JF

@DyvmSlorm 3 года назад

My only thought on the hand above/below the elbow is that, hand below looks like it will generate a little more power but, hand above looks like it will be a little less stressful on the rotator cuff. It MIGHT be one reason Federer has lasted as long as he has.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Wow, great point. I could see where it could more strain on the shoulder. Thanks for sharing! JF

@Issızkampçı 2 года назад

I just watched my own slow mo serve video simultaneously to your Federer slow mo serve video, it seems that I started doing some biomechanics right, yet thanks to the video I found out that I pronate earlier than I should, causing me not to be able to hit as good as I should or pros do. This is really gonna be useful for me, I'll exactly focus on this next time. Thanks :)

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Great to hear. Were you not staying on edge long enough? Thanks for your comment! JF

@krishnendubasu5936 3 года назад

Great analysis. Thanks.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

You bet, thanks for your comment and support! JF

@MikeHammerForEver 8 месяцев назад

Very good video, but there's something missing that makes Federer´s serve pretty unique: the weight transfer. You mentioned that he places his weight on his left foot, True, but misleading, since that´s anecdotical and it happens only to start the motion. Right after that he quickly places virtually all of his body weight in his right foot (the left foot barely touching the ground) and he stays that way well beyond the moment he releases the ball, maintaning a vertical pose, and he does so for longer than the rest of the players. He only iniciates the weight transfer forward and balances the weight between both feet after the ball is already released and approaching its apex point. That gives him unique balance during most of the motion.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

That's actuall a really good point and could have been included in the video. Thanks for your observation and comment! JF

@wassilafritschy2793 2 года назад

Génial de voir au ralenti son service 👌👍🎾

@topspintennis Год назад

I'm glad you like it, it is pretty impressive in slow motion! JF

@TikiCat3 3 года назад

Great kinetic chain analysis with memorable tips, John. Thanks!

@topspintennis 3 года назад

You bet Rick....I'm glad you enjoyed the video! JF

@allboutthemojo 3 года назад

@@topspintennis hand ideally should be below the elbow , that is correct and the video does show Roger not achieving that position here. Roger even advised the US open crowd one time giving exactly that advice. He was asked if he could give the public some advice on how to hit good serves. He said " elbow high" Having said that, I'd like to see a match clip. Seen Roger practice clip several times and he is laid back in all practice videos. If he achieved the elbow high position before, it Could also be that his shoulder is not as flexible as it used to be. Overused for 20 plus year's on the tour. Lastly the elbow drop is significant for power and Roger for year's has been accuracy focused

@choosakdiseriruk7928 3 года назад

Thank goodness

@topspintennis 3 года назад

I'm glad you liked the video! JF

@gordonjohnstone9681 2 года назад

awsome vid and description, thank you

@topspintennis Год назад

You bet, I’m glad you enjoyed it! JF

@hi_vince 10 месяцев назад

awesome video; elbow above hand is key and so easy to miss; it indicates arming the serve too much

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Very true! I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis! JF

@rafaels3552 Год назад

Excellent video. It would be good to see a video of your first serve analysis next to your second kick serve analysis. By looking at the differences next to each other, it would help many by clicking in our brains faster. I think.

@topspintennis Год назад

Great suggestion! I will create a video on this. I'm looking for footage. JF

@borisvisic6659 3 года назад

My brother.... I like yours video you are a great coach But....sory in this video Federer not serve a flat 1st.serve...this is a slice serve in parallel from righty players...white the pronation in the end.Federer 1st serve is in diagonally direction in this situation.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Correct, no player hits a 100% flat serve, there is always some type of slice in some degree. In this instance he does "compress" or "take" more of the ball than he would with a kick serve. Thanks for your comment! JF

@timothybint4960 3 года назад

I’ve watched both your 1st and 2nd ( kick ) serve analysis of Federer’s serve . How would you describe the essential differences ? Is it point of ball contact ?

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Tim, the essential differences are the "INTENT" and which effects the swing path which effects the hip and shoulder rotation. With the flat or slice serve, the player's intent should be to hit through the ball more so than on a kick serve. With a kick serve, the intent is to impart topspin on the ball, meaning the player will hit less of the ball. On the kick serve, since we are trying to brush up the backside of the ball, the hips and shoulders don't open up as much in order for us to stay "aligned" and not spoil the path of the racquet. I hope this helps! JF

@metoo9357 5 месяцев назад

My hand is also not about my elbow for 3 reasons. First, look how much more body bend Fed has and when we are bent backwards looking up more then Stan, there's less need for a high elbow. 2) less movement in the kinetic chain means more control and feel for less power. We can all agree Stan has a more powerful serve but lower 1st serve % also. 3 Prevention if in jury bc with less elbow snap the chance of a hyperextension injury or wrist injury... And notice Fed is using his back and legs more to make up for less elbow bend...it all makes sense to me and I have been doing all this for 10 years as a 5.0 player...not even pro.

@oasislandscape7686 3 года назад

thanks for the tips, great vid

@topspintennis 3 года назад

No problem 👍 I'm glad you enjoyed it! JF

@Better_Call_Raul 8 месяцев назад

Great lesson. 🎾 I am a bit confused on how the yellow line is drawn at 08:50. The line through his right shoulder is not quite straight. Is this intentional? I want to make sure I draw the line correctly when I check my serve. Draw a line from the contact point on strings through the right shoulder. Is that the procedure to draw the line?

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Thank you and I am glad you enjoyed the video. Yes, you want to draw a line from the ball to your right shoulder, just like Federer does. Thanks for your comment and let me know if I can help with anything else. JF

@joekiler3504 3 года назад

It's very useful... thanks

@topspintennis 3 года назад

So nice of you...thanks for watching! JF

@ollie708 3 года назад

brilliant thanks

@topspintennis 3 года назад

You bet! Thanks for your comment! JF

@joseh899 3 года назад

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS JOHN. I WOULD FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE ITS A FLEXIBILITY ISSUE WITH ROGER'S HAND HIGHER THAN HIS ELBOW? I GUESS HE'S NEVER HAD ISSUES WITH HIS SERVE, SO WHY CHANGE IT. WHO KNOWS JOHN? VERY INTERESTING ANALYSIS, FOR US REC PLAYERS. 🎾👏👍

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Jose, I wonder if it is a flexibility issue? I'm not sure and don't know if it ever was addressed. Why fix it if it isn't broken. Thanks for your comment and support! JF

@shakirm2807 8 месяцев назад

Listening in 2023, djokovic has 18 grand slams, nadal and federer have 20 each seems amazing.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Agree, he is amazing - 2024 will be an interesting year! JF

@mauricecatayan3406 11 месяцев назад

It's not a flaw. He just doesn't have the rotator cuff flexibility needed to externally rotate his firearm that far back, like baseball pitchers typically can. Stan is actually "cheating" a bit to drop his hand, by raising the elbow and closing his forearm closer to his upper arm. See Sampras or Roddick for examples of servers with flexible rotator cuffs, who can drop that hand parallel to the shoulder without raising the elbow above the shoulder or closing the forearm to less than 90 degrees from the upper arm.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Great analysis and insight, thanks! JF

@jrnjantzen9146 3 года назад

Great video!

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for your support! JF

@harryherman5371 3 года назад

Would you have the toss arm aim for netpost on both ad and deuce side?

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Yes, I think it is a good reference point to use for your first serve because it helps get the ball to go out into the court. Great question! JF

@harryherman5371 3 года назад

@@topspintennis Great videos!

@ryannichols4801 11 месяцев назад

umm yeah, a flaw in serve...??? how many titles does he have? It may not be a flaw, but something that works for him as not everyone's bodies are made the same. It would be like showing everyone to pitch a baseball or softball the exact same way. nothing is the same with the body and thats what makes most great is they know how to adjust to what works for them. Have to find what works for you is all.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Agree with you completely. Federer has one of the best win serve percentages in the history of the tour. Thanks for your comment! JF

@jeroenmolenaar8832 2 года назад

Super helpfull🙏😎🤙

@topspintennis 2 года назад

Glad to hear! Thanks for your comment! JF

@couldyourewindplease3653 2 года назад

I absolutely agree with all the points, BUT(!) Federer didn't learn to serve like this since day one. His serve evolved over long time and with his talent it took him a while. Trying to execute Federer's serve right away will cause more harm than good. It's like trying to balance 5 coins on the edge at the same time all at once. One should always start with balancing 1, 2, 3, etc. I.e. you learn to balance 1, than 2, than 3, etc. Kenetic chain that Federer has is the longest in tennis and possibly in general, tennis serve is the longest, most sophisticated one. Especially when you need to apply power necessary to generate 123mph ball speed. Trying to execute that kind of chain off the start is almost impossible. And trying to learn it will create bad habits, injuries, etc. I would suggest not trying to learn this until proper simpler elements are developed, like footwork, volleys, forehand and overhead. I.e. develop simpler kinetic chains first. Only after you are aware of your body somewhat you can start piecing together a serve. Also keep in mind the shoulder and upper body strength required. And if you are even a little bit hunched Federer's serve is not for you.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

Agree, thanks for your comment! JF

@LaBambaCL 3 года назад

nice review! it takes more than one video, one view to analyze position, i think. as to what difference the position hand:elbow makes, i'll have to keep that in mind. i doubt i am even half of a professional serve ;)

@topspintennis 3 года назад

I agree, this is just one perspective. It just shows you that even the top pros can have some deficiencies in their strokes and still win 20 grand slams. JF

@LaBambaCL 3 года назад

@@topspintennis do you have other slow mo clips of fed's serve showing his hand-elbow position? fed has a relaxed practice style, doesn't he? may need to see match clips.

@willkittwk 9 месяцев назад

Great breakdown but you definitely need to show the all important action on the ball as it hits the court. Obviously it's Fed so it's gonna be good but the visual reinforcement is what we need. Some Internet vids show a coach talking up technique and when he demos the serve it's supposed to have extra good power cause he checked all the technique boxes and his serve can't even carry without a second bounce to the back fence then I'm going well all the technique isn't really working cause coach hits a weak serve.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

I like your idea of showing where the ball bounces off of the court. Federer obviously has not issue with this. Thanks for your comment! JF

@bournejason66 2 года назад

Is it possible for a righty to hit a slice out wide serve from ad court?

@topspintennis 2 года назад

You can hit it but the ball will come back into the opponent. I still think it is a good shot. You can start the ball outside the box yet still bring it in. Thanks! JF

@rodrod959 Год назад

Great video…. However, kinda gutsy to say you have ‘found a flaw’ in Federer’s serve.

@topspintennis Год назад

Very gusty, considering how many GS's he has won. He is so good, who's to say (including myself) that he has a flaw. Shooting at 240 fps can bring out a lot of details. He didn't have the biggest serve on the tour but he his placement, speed and spin ratios were off the charts. His second serve was also won of the best! Thanks for your comment! JF

@twinwankel 29 дней назад

After thinking about this more, I think that Fed doesn't lean as far back as Stan and so his racket drop doesn't appear as deep. I think with Fed everything he does is based on artistic impression. I'm sure that if he thought it would look more pleasing to lean back more like Stan or arch his back like Roddick or Joker, he would do it and you would see his hand well below his elbow. Apparently, he doesn't. Who can argue with the result?

@mikeso5963 2 года назад

is this. flat or slice serve?

@topspintennis 2 года назад

Mike, it's a hard top/slice serve. Thanks! JF

@P3u99 2 года назад

Everyone would serve like Federer if only it was so easy to follow the motion on slow mo and analysis.

@topspintennis 2 года назад

I love the slow motion footage, it give you a good sense of the check points to watch and how to emulate them. It does take a lot of reps and good technique to get his kind of serve. JF

@ayden3159 3 года назад

He has the same racket that I have do

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Your a fan of Wilson racquets? They make great sticks! JF

@zolaQuela711 2 года назад

Maybe it's an abbreviated swing (with more lag) and not a flaw.

@topspintennis 2 года назад

I agree with you. His numbers wins and grand slams tell you all you need to know. Thanks for your comment and support! JF

@matyverona9407 3 года назад

Good video

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Thanks for the visit and your comment! JF

@DonYang73 3 года назад

There is no flaw, it’s personal style. Everybody is built a little differently so everybody does it a little differently 🙂

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

You are correct, he is built differently than Stan. Different strokes for different folks! Thanks, JF

@garyraab9132 Год назад

‘Trophy Pose’ Semantics??? Roger’s serve is one smooth motion, a smooth motion continuously through a trophy ‘position’. I watch lot of club players move rapidly to the trophy position, then stopping, posing, and then having to restart the service swing. If you’re an advanced player, you know it’s not stop start. But if you’re a beginner no matter which stroke or serve type, beginners are following coach’s step by step, one pose at a time. Not good! Start slowly and continuously progress through the serve motion. Stephen Currie’s basketball shot is smooth, just like Federer’s serve...Pronation is simply pointing at the rim...pointing at the ball in tennis with a racquet in your hand, yes with a loose continental grip! One more comment, if you don’t have Rogers’s or Stan’s physique or flexibility, all the positions you move through, including the trophy position, will be challenging. Tennis player, basketball player ...and coach.

@topspintennis Год назад

Gary, you are correct it is one smooth continuous motion; there is no pause. As for breaking down the stroke I do like to point out key positions throughout the swing. I do appreciate your comment! JF

@tennisgain7567 Год назад

Not trying to say your contradicting yourself but isn't Federer's first serve a flat serve? And all Federer's serve have pronation but why you showing a Clip of Fender's slicing his serve?

@topspintennis Год назад

Thank you for your comment. No, Federer in most instances hit a hard slice on his first serve. That isn't to say he would try to "flatten" out his serve a bit more is some instances; but no, this is definitely a slice serve. Thanks for your comment and support! JF

@rok2754 3 года назад

There are no flaws, only self expression

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Agreed, thanks for your comment! JF

@davitong Год назад

It's a revelation that flat serve is not first choice.

@topspintennis Год назад

Flat serves are over rated, a top slice or drive slice are better options. Thanks for your comment! JF

@vijaychoudhary9737 3 года назад

Thank you.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

You're welcome! I'm glad you liked the video! JF

@slimpickinses 3 года назад

He learned that candy cane toss from watching me

@harryherman5371 3 года назад

Thats the spirit.

@topspintennis 8 месяцев назад

I'm sure he did!😁 Thanks for your comment! JF

@twinwankel 3 года назад

Federer hold's the Wimbledon record for aces in a single match, 50 aces. That's an amazing stat. It's more than 2 sets of nothing but aces. And imagine the incredible long history of Wimbledon since 1877. So that "weakness" is laughable. I would think more pros should copy Fed's approach. Accuracy not speed.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

His placement is impeccable. I didn't realize he held the record at Wimbledon for aces. Thanks for your comment! JF

@twinwankel 2 года назад

@@topspintennis It's the record for a Wimby final against Roddick in 2009. I think the issue with his elbow now that I have had more time to think about it is two-fold. First, Fed is using a continuous motion on his serve and second his toss is low. When you try to do a continuous motion with a low toss, there is little time to bring the racket down very far. You can try this and see how far down you get. If he used a pause at his trophy position and toss higher, like he use to when he was younger, he would have enough time to drop the racket properly. But trying to disguise his serve better by speeding up his delivery causes this condition. Of course, because his serve doesn't depend on racket head speed but strong pronation, the ball pace doesn't suffer at all.

@FF_AlohaEdition 3 года назад

wawrinka over pronate because most his power comes from his arm. federer has most power comes from his legs. It is not a weakness unless he wants to serve like roddick.

@topspintennis 3 года назад

Interesting. I also think Wawrinka rotates from his hips and shoulders more. Thanks for your comment! JF

@exinmate 3 года назад

CORRECTION: 2nd serve kicked

@borisvisic6659 3 года назад

I am a very close friend white Goran Ivanisevic and many others atp.pro players...you are not 100%right in this video

@topspintennis 3 года назад

I don't claim to be a 100% and I appreciate your comment! JF

@bournejason66 2 года назад

Can you give an example ?

@mishellgagnon5771 2 года назад

Who cares that Fed's hand is above his elbow? There are thousands of effective servers, each one with its twists and turns. What matters is the result. And as far as I can see, with 20 grand slams in his pocket, lokks like it works just fine...

@topspintennis 2 года назад

I agree, look at percentage of service points won!