Female Pilot on the Highs and Lows of Gender Integration 

"Not every man can fly a fighter jet onto an aircraft carrier. Not every woman can either. But there are some who can and who do it really well." Sums it up.

I (white male, middle-upper middle class) grew up in the time of the Womens Liberation movement. I also had three older sisters and a brother (14-20 years older). Given this, I ended up with the attitude that my sisters were just as capable as my brother and in many ways more capable. My brother ended up as a top executive in a multi-billion dollar company... My sisters ended up being house wives. My oldest sister when she was first married was working as a controller for a large cold storage company. Her husband decided to move to a small town and become a pastor. My sister ended up submitting and going with him. A few months later the CEO of the cold storage company ended up sending her a signed blank check (literally) and begged her to come back as the CFO. She ended up bowing to social (religious) pressure and stayed with her husband. She spent the rest of her life working jobs well below her capabilities since her pastor husband did not earn enough to keep the kids in clothes. This experience convinced me that rights need to be tied to responsibility, not gender, race, local, etc.!

Note the emphasis on how things went in her career due to good leadership. The key, IMO, to all things going in the right direction.

Hats off to you Mooch. Your interview skills are outstanding. Murph ‘83

Ward - it's a masterful ability to get the guest comfortable enough to drill down on uncomfortable details....you continue to impress. What a great piece.

Another outstanding, and very insightful episode. She is honest, forthright, and a delight to listen to. Excellent. As always, I enjoyed every minute of your content.

Mooch, in a world where there is so much "crap" on the internet, it's refreshing to watch your insightful and thought-provoking videos wherein you explore the various aspects of naval aviation, past, present and future. Kudos to you, sir!

My girlfriend (a few years after the fact) was at “The Tailhook.” She was a Navy Reserve officer and worked for a contractor. Her take on it was the third floor was out of control and a woman who went there knowingly was going to to have trouble. She was groped on an elevator and went on the third floor looking for her friend but had to fend off a few assaults. She was in the Tailhook report (like victim 82 or something…one of the higher numbered ones). She was called by a congressional rep to come testify on a Monday. He called her on Friday. She asked him about orders to travel and he stumbled a little. She didn’t want to travel without orders in hand. She never testified.

I went thru C-130 Training with a Female Navy Pilot. This was around late 1982. She was limited to support flying so was going to fly the EC-130 out of Barber's Point Hawaii. She told me that when she was in training at Pensacola and was scheduled for a checkride that the Check Airman called her at home and flat out offered to guarantee a pass if she'd sleep with him. She declined and still passed. Very sharp lady.

Mooch, I really appreciate the manner in which you approach any topic that might be a bit touchy. This interview, as well as your Kara Hultgreen video, are great examples.

Ward these interviews are a great addition to your channel. Thank you for all that you do. Phoenix, AZ.

I have only 1 regret in my life. I was accepted to attend the Naval Academy and I declined the appointment and enlisted in the Marine Corps. Every time I see Golden Wings I dream about what might have been. Thanks for another fabulous interview, Sir.

Rowdy is a great representation of Naval Aviation! Thank you, Mam!

As a Training LSO at VT 7 1981-83, I took several of the first women in A4s to the boat for CQ. Some of those were prop transitions. What an honor and privilege to be part of that! They were awesome people who went on to do great things. They all did well in CQ too, so I was very proud of them all. Thanks so much to this lovely and professional lady for being willing to share her experience! Bravo Zulu!

Really enjoyed hearing her take the Navy. Another insightful interview and why we keep coming back. It's inspiring to listen to smart people tell their stories.

Absolutely amazing interview. Thank you Rowdy for all of your hard work! 👍I worked in the Oil and Gas industry as a tech rep going out to customer sites fixing their equipment and we had a few female reps. They were as smart and hard working as the best of em, and (from what I understand) did face some challenges working with the Gas and Construction companies. And this was only 3-5 years ago. It's sad to see this kind of bias persist, but I think/hope it will improve. I always did what I could to help with technical training and for one of the gals, how to drive and park pickup trucks. Keep up the good work!

Wonderful episode! I love it. As a male gynecologist-who is used to deal with women every day- to me it stands out that Rowdy doesn't weare some flight jacket etc. She just doesn't have to for her ego! She doesn't expose what she is - she will show show you any time, it's needed... This is real self confidency in my eyes! Deepest respect. We can learn a lot from women!😅 As a matter of fact, I served as a privat in the German Bundeswehr in a medical unit. We were the first ones, who had women in our troops. The were seen as less reliable and more like a challange, who gets them. This is so embarissing from these's day perspictive! Thank's God, times have changed.

Great interview! Besides hearing her story for its sake, the interview helped me, as strictly an armchair aviator, to have a better idea of the extraordinary level that all naval aviators function at. Her simply comment that not all men (or all women) can do this said a lot in only a few words- you are in a special group!

Ward, What an amazing candid interview with an amazing pilot! I am very impressed with her honesty about double standards, discrimination, and harassment. I am glad that the leader in her doesn't care about her past. That's what makes a good leader. It is sad facts facing not just women, deaf people or disabled people, especially the disabled veterans. One disabled veteran called his disability his problems, I told him no, I think of my disability as a speed bump at Walmart parking lot. I would say that pilot certainly has some speed bumps in her career but it didn't hinder her at all.

I still have my Hook 90 t shirt. One of our JO's was the artist. While on med cruise 88 we seen our first lady aviator. COD driver out of Sig. One of our JO's who was a very likeable fella had graduated with her. He told me she had strong skills and really should be in VA VF community. He also put the word out to a few of us that if we witnessed anyone giving her a bad time that we were cleared hot to take any enlisted "behind the line shack". Never did see any problems. 0 banter in the shop. If anything she had 100 big brothers guarding her.

Ward, you are consistently a gracious host, who presents people and events with the honor they deserve. Thank you so much for having Loree on, and for letting us hear a part of her story. Excellent.

Difficult times, pros adjust and adapt, many of these people are a credit to naval officers in general, and these pioneers in particular.

Well done, again. Her story is reassuring and her poise is compelling. I suspect her stage presence is even better. Many thanks.

I was a P3 aircrewman. I never recall any issues when they integrated our crews. We'd had female maintainers for years so it really wasn't that big of a jump adding them to our crews.

Great episode Ward! Loree's story has to be inspirational for not only females, but anyone who aspires to follow their passion and has to confront and overcome obstacles along the way. We are most fortunate that she didn't give up and agreed to share her journey with you and with us. You have such interesting friends!

Great interview. As a ship's company officer on a carrier (CVA-42) in the 1960s I am amazed how well women have integrated into Naval Aviation. Jet pilots are a special breed.

I like Lorrie's comment about "staying calm in stressful situations" 24 years of Naval Aviation Maintenance taught me that the ability to function when the "stuff" is hitting the fan is a common character feature of the folks who wear the gold wings on their uniforms. Some of the stories I have heard of the debrief table scared the crap out of me.

Mr. Carrol, Sir. As I have commented before. We all thank you for the professional, life experienced interviews and journalistic commentary. I can’t help but feel these documentation interviews will have a major influence in future research. Thank you for your skill, honesty, evaluative skills and reasoning. Well done Sir and Ma’am.

Really enjoyed this interview. Thank you and your guests for your service

What a talented women. Thanks for the interview to both!

Thank you Mooch for having Rowdy share her story. Again, a great discussion. Cheers!

A great interview!!!!!!! Thank you for introducing us to Ms. Draude...

Excellent interview. I served in VS-29 in the early 80's as the third chop assigned to the squadron after transition to the S3A. Happy to hear her integration into the squadron went reasonably well. VS-29 was my best assignment in 20 years of active and reserve Navy time. Her comment about 35 big brothers rang true to me as well ... I was a chop and junior to every other officer for 20 of my 24 months. Again, excellent interview. Thanks.

Very nicely done interview Mooch! Keep 'em coming! BRAVO ZULU to Rowdy also!

Thanks Mooch. Wonderful interview. A real insight to females in Naval aviation. (VMA 223 here, a long time ago)

1st class Ward....excellent watchable interview. Thankyou for sharing

yep, that was interesting and informative ! nice one Mooch! and thank you Laurie for an incisive view of your career !!

This was an interesting interview. My Nephews Fiancee is at Pensacola right now going thru Naval Aviation training. I’m really looking forward to meeting her and hearing about her experience in the Navy today.

Thank you WC and Rowdy. this is good insight into the student/instructor problem that might occur when you are assigned a female student. seems apparent that things have (hopefully) changed for the better in the last 40 years. i was in VT-21 when we got our first female tactical jet (transition) naval aviators in the late 70s. i think because they already had their wings (prop pipeline), the unsat/"down" hammer was not allowed to be used. we had a list of instructors that were prohibited from flying with those students. what bothered me and others was how a few bad eggs that were there made us wonder who was doing well in the program thru ability and work and who was squeaking thru or had gotten there by playing their gender card in various ways. we certainly didn't want to be called on the carpet because of an excuse given for a bad grade was that there was an unfair bias against having female navy pilots or some other situation relating to mixed genders. btw i was also in VAQ 34 for two years watching similar scenarios play out. there were many exceptional women in EA-7 and ERA-3 cockpits at the time, but again the male/female issues definitely made for some interesting and not necessarily healthy situations as far as the FRS is concerned, when i went thru 125 in '72-'73 the only thing that sucked was holding in marshal at night waiting for your shot at the rounddown. we had great leadership, great instructors, and zero co-ed problems

Excellent interview - a credit to you as the interviewer, and to Rowdy and the candor she brings to relating her experiences. Bravo Zulu.

Many descriptions of her and her experiences as a USN aviator come to mind; smart, resilient, talented - but perhaps more than anything, Tough. Don't let her appearance or voice fool you, boot leather tough! Proud & thankful for her service. Thank you ma'am & best wishes on your future endeavors. Great lessons taught by her during this interview. Thx Mooch!

Another homerun Interview Commander. We got to meet another great carrier aviator with her own, rich, interesting story! Semper Fi, Rowdy.

Enjoyed this interview. I served twenty years in the Army from 1968-88 when the WAC's were still a separate branch. Integration occurred somewhere in the 1970's, I believe and it was interesting to watch the transition. My hat is off to every woman that I served with and how they handled much of the nonsense from the men at the time. Your comment about the Hooters screen saver brought back a funny story. I was the supply officer in a Chinook unit in Germany, 1982-84. Forty pilots and only one of them female. There was a pilot's lounge in the basement and when she arrived there were several cheesecake posters on the wall of bikini-clad women. After failed attempts to have them taken down, this woman posted a beefcake poster of a muscular guy with oiled skin on the back of the door to the lounge. Everyone had to look up close and personal at it as they reached for the door knob to leave. Complaints to the company commander fell on deaf ears. Good for the goose, good for the gander. Leadership does make a difference.

Excellent interview, impressive editing. Great subject, I liked "We used our words". Wow TailHook was over 30yrs ago.

Amazing person. Don't take "NO" for an answer. She is amazing.

Nice interview. This was right up there with the “Spike” Booker interview that C.W. Lemoine did recently.

Hey, Mooch, Rowdy was a fantastic interview! I really appreciated her honest reflection and self-deprecating sense of humor. You can tell she's rightfully proud of her achievements, but comes off as modest and funny. I'm very glad to have had the chance to "meet" her.

After watching this interview I ordered her book. It's great seeing anyone doing anything well.

Mooch, another awesome insightful video. Rowdy was great! As a retired SWO, we had our own struggles with integration, but they stayed "inside the lifelines". My DDG XO tour was my first integrated tour; a crew of 310 Sailors, of whom 60 happened to be female, did an amazing job as a true team/crew. Keep up the great work!

Really good to hear she had experienced no harassment, very cool story. I think it goes to the professionalism displayed by most Naval Officers.

Great interview. Please always explain acronyms the first time they are used. You and your colleague speak the language, but not all your viewers can, without help.

I am so glad I came across this channel. Ward Carroll does an amazing job!

Good interview,Ward.She is a beautiful,and amazing woman,and a real treat to listen to. Thank you for the video

Great interview. Very interesting getting her perspective on the journey she took in her Navy career. Change is always challenging…

Very impressive interview. Rowdy is articulate, thoughtful, poised and insightful. She is brave and bold, yet skillful in her descriptions of the adversity she faced. As today is the women’s day, I enjoyed the interview completely. Thank you Ward for you skill as the author of this channel and giving Rowdy her space to tell her interesting story with great questions.

I had one of the first women in my AF avionics shop. She fit in well, giving as good as she took. She said it was easier to be "one of the guys" than the only girl in the shop.

Best interview yet, I really appreciate Rowdy's insight and candor. I was on the Enterprise (MM2-Nuke) from 1982-1986 and during that time we were a test bed for female integration on carriers. During one of our pre-deployment work-ups (1985, I think), the airwing included all of its female squadron members. Aside from some basic information regarding sexual harassment and fraternization, the only difference to our normal routine was designating certain heads and berthing areas as female only. To be honest, it seemed like a disaster at first. Not because of the women, but because of how most of the men behaved around them. On one hand it was like some of these guys had never seen a women before, and on the other, some thought they didn't belong there. I'm sure it hasn't been easy, but I'm glad that the US military continues to strive for gender equality in all areas. As far as I'm concerned, being male, female, or non-binary has absolutely nothing to do with job performance. It's all about good leadership and the determination to perform to the best of your abilities. By the way, Rowdy is an awesome call sign, how did she get it?

Excellent interview! Thank you for sharing a much more nuanced conversation about male and female warfighters. Having spent my entire military service in all male combat arms units, It’s tough for me to imagine being a true minority in a such a demanding, high stakes environment!

Amazing interview! She was hesitant to talk about in detail, any negative experiences while in the Navy, but once I got to the end, I understood why. She's a business-woman, author, and now a playwright, and actor! Kudos to you Ms. Draude!

Great show! Thanks Ward.

Great video, thank you. Please consider as you record these, that they will be watched for years to come. So always include a date in your conversation. I'm performing at the fringe in Scotland is a great clue, but because you didnt say 2022, it may be hard to find in the future.

Great guest and interview. Nice to see a photo of the old A model f-18. It’s like the good old days

Thank you Mooch and Rowdy for another super interview. The open, frank discussions are great, and Rowdy’s emphasis on the good is refreshing. I am a proud Naval Aviator 👍!

I think we should all feel very lucky that we live in a technologically advanced first world society which allows us to have these types of conversations.

My daughter is an Air Force pilot. I can verify they walk the talk. They are all in it together. Btw, her motto is “whatever it takes” 🤗

Thank you, Rowdy, for your service. You did for female naval aviators what my wife did for petroleum engineers in the oil fields of Oklahoma.

Thanks guys, great interview !

Another excellent video Mooch, I don't know how you keep finding these excellent people = oh yeah - the Navy! Cheers mate.

Interesting dialogue both historically and substantively. Your ability to cover the watershed of various subjects and tap the people who were there and lived it is really outstanding.

I have been a subscriber for sometime but only now have I started to go through and watch a lot of your videos and I am enjoying your content. I was in the USAF in acft maintenance and one of the acft I was assigned to was the KC-135Q Stratotanker. I got a chuckle out of the mention of the Hooters screensaver. We had jets rotate into RAF Mildenhall to refuel in the European theater and I remember this crew chief who was a big Hooters fan. He had Hooters pin ups under the plexiglass of the nav table and on the cabinet above and some other places. I remember there were some female crew members who flew his jet on a mission and were not impressed with his jet. But if I remember right, this crew chief's kept his jet in very good condition.😊😊😊

Great interview with Rowdy, thank you.

Effective leadership creates effective professionalism. I've seen it done right and I've seen it done wrong in the Navy. Fortunately it mostly gets done right. It's comforting - and safer - to be around good leadership. I'm alive, I have both arms, and I have both legs. Bravo to all the effective leaders and their success stories. I love this interview.

Fantastic interview! Thank you both for your service.

I really like these interview type videos Mooch. One I would really like to see is one with Tammie Shults. I think it would be interesting to hear her story on her time as a Naval aviator as well as her career at Southwest.

This was a fantastic interview.

Yet another outstanding “interview.” I really enjoy your channel.

Beyond your perspective and knowledge, you become a terrific interviewer, and your talk with Loree Draude was a perfect example. Having watched my dad do lots of interviews at The NY Times, I've got a high bar. Well done.

I had a buddy going through 125 at that time. He hated it too, for the same reasons. "The RAG sucks."

She has a great personality. Humor, well spoken and very entertaining. Good get Sir.

Awesome interview, Ward!

thank you so much for doing this interview

Great video gang!

What a great interview! Thank you for sharing!

Wow!! Very interesting interview. I'm very happy for your guest. Best wishes.

Great interview with Rowdy (a great call sign BTW) she is competent, confident, not above taking criticism and shouldering the mission first and foremost. Most importantly she recognizes her needs and weaknesses and takes action to remediate where necessary. Wish she was still flying for U.S.N. We need ladies like her.

I totally agree with Loree that having good leadership makes all the difference in the world. I was fortunate to have Spider Nyland as our CO in 232. The entire squadron morale was boosted under him.

hey, my name is lory! fantastic interview, thanks mooch & rowdy

Awesome, What a great interview and an inspiring lady.

Loved the interview with Rowdy and also the one with Jaws. Can you please make a point of asking your guests about how they got their call signs?

GREAT episode again MOOCH! Was that your dog at your feet scratching @ 19:26 ? Hahahaa... I notice this kind of stuff all the time.

Thanks to you both for this episode as well as your service. At around that time, I was serving in the first RAN ship with 35 women (as opposed to the onesie-twosies over the last decade or so) on board for a Red Sea deployment after Gulf War 1, enforcing UN sanctions against Iraq. The two things I recall was the 'normalisation' (for lack of a better word) of the atmosphere compared to the boy's locker room crap in a male-only ship some time previously, and how steep the learning curve was for everyone: the women because most if not all had never been to sea before, and the blokes who I would generalise as 'wanting to get it right but not sure / utterly clueless as to how' . Getting women to sea during the 90s was very much a 'learning by doing' experience for the RAN, with quite a few stuffups along the way (ultimately due in most cases - funnily enough - to leadership failures) while we worked it out. Question for Loree please if it's not too forward: why 'Rowdy"? Best wishes for Edinburgh :-)

Good leadership! A+ content as always!🤗

Great interview! Such a special Lady! Thank you both for your service.

Outstanding and inspiring Mooch!

Excellent, excellent discussion. Rowdy is an amazing person.

Great video! I really enjoyed her story.

Great interveiw and video, real shame that the S3 isn't still around.

Great stuff again Ward!!

A very interesting and informative interview. Good to hear the female Navy Pilot’s perspective on what she endured to become a Navy pilot. I congratulate her for persevering.

A super professional interview with an incredible person as the interview subject. Hope in the future this one lady show goes on the road with enough audience interest to make it commercially feasible. Ready to reserve my tickets with my daughter and granddaughter. KUDOS TO YOU BOTH.