My grandfather installed hundreds of miles of chain-link fence while a contractor for Sears and other fence sellers. These were residential fences in a rural setting. He, more often than not, installed the fences with a cement curb, (a 5 to 6 inch cement mini-wall). I always thought it was to prevent unwanted critters. But to this day those fence post remain (70+ years) on the most part. many of the fences have been replaced but the original post remain. I do remember helping him as a child and he did put a slope on the surface to prevent pooling. I also remember he said he made more money on the fences he did this way. I know they have lasted a life time, I am 67 and many still remain to this day.
Dan could you describe this technique a little more? What is the cement curb like?does it run along the fence line, or surround each post? Is it a preformed tube? I've seen those in my own yard, one is in place surrounding a sewer access plug running along the pipe going outside the house. It sticks up about 8 inches, higher than you describe. I could see this stabilizing the gravel inside the perimeter, and the soil outside the perimeter of the post, but beyond drainage and settling advantages I'm not seeing how that would significantly lengthen the post's life.
You were saying you've never seen a post rot from the bottom up you must not have done very many fences I made a lot of money by replacing post when I replace them I throw a couple shovel fools of gravel put the post down pour the concrete
I've lived here for 30 years. Two homes across the street have that cement base. One fence is wood, one is chainlink, both are in great shape still, and some fences without the concrete around it are falling down.
I helped a construction crew put some fence in at the Jacksonville Zoo when they opened up their Jaguar exhibit and they had me wrap tar paper around the part that was going to be in concrete
You never use tubes for a fence. Second you never have concrete above grade only for fence build. Now the reason why. First concrete should be below lever with the ground, when you install the boards, in the winter it will hit the concrete and that’s when you get a V slope on top. Your fence will not be level, it will be 2-3 inches off. Second no matter what you do, water will still end up getting into the wood and between the concrete. Been doing fencing for now 21 years, I have gone back to the first job we did and we see no difference in the post. We try all the methods. The out come is the same, except when we added 3/4 crush or lime stone, we saw the post lift up higher then normal. My option is dig your hole, set you post. And leave it simple. This is for climates that have winters. I can’t say how it is for warm weather all year long. Two different methods, for two different climates.
From Leo: I have pulled a row of rotten posts out of concrete. After I cleaned the hole, I set new pressure treated posts into the concrete with a sledge hammer. The old posts had been installed 40 years earlier and I am sure they were not originally treated. I did that in 1997 and the fence is still solid
I did too. The easiest were ones which were totally rotten where I could pull the old wood out by hand. Some were rotted at ground level, but not deeper where the wood stayed wet. It is the region with both water and oxygen where it rots. Some I had to drill and pry to get all the wood out. By re-using the concrete, no concerns with the neighbors over shifting the property lines. I did have to shave a little width some of the new posts with a circular saw to get them to fit. I added a short section of paper tube to add concrete slightly above the ground most places. To bond to the old concrete, I wet it then coated with a thick Portland cement - water mixture for better bonding.
I've only done post footings once, and the supervisor had us form the top of the footings sloping to ground level, making it 1" to 1.5" above ground level at its highest point. I don't think footings sinking into the ground is very common, but what can give that impression is that all lawns gradually add perhaps an inch of topsoil every decade, due to the addition of new biomass, and accumulation of airborne dust.
I've done it on older posts set poorly in concrete. I put a couple deck screws on each side of the 4X4 that goes in concrete. Walmanized lumber would shrink once dry....
I've had a few dozen post pull right out of the concrete by hand and the concrete was not cracked. The post typically had a consistent 1/16 gap around them between the concrete and post. I wasn't able to put a new post into the concrete. I attribute it to the post shrinking and installed in wet conditions.
I've built near 50 decks and my method has always been to fill the hole (no tubes) with rock below the post for drainage, and concrete about an inch above ground level with it troweled to slope downward on all 4 sides, and trowel a neat edge around the base. You get drainage, it doesn't look bad, and is low enough to cover if the customer just hates the exposed stuff, but the other advantage of these is you can mow right up to the post; no weedeater necessary! You could also use dye to match your posts, house trim, grass, or whatever.
@@JoeEverest I have seen a couple like the guy described...as a surveyor whos seen THOUSANDS of posts, from cedar, to exotic metal. Ive only EVER seen it happen to wood (like from home depot) posts. Never cedar, never cl posts (chainlink)...never metal. And Ive seen rot...especially in fences where they are along a wet spot or swampy spot. Hes not WRONG...hes just over-engineering. He should literally just use cl posts and brackets for a wood fence. Simple.
@@firghteningtruth7173 I've pulled my fair share of posts set in cement and I'd say maybe 1/3 of them you could bust the 'crete away with a few blows of a sledge, most are fairly well attached. They still serve their function, beingg trapped in by dirt and 'crete. Supporting a roof load though, requires mainly a solid footing UNDER the post, as any bad attachment could sink the post through.
@@garychandler4296 have you seen the foam concrete hes tested on this channel? He shows the foam shrinks when it sets...so it loses contact with the ground and the post. The post wobbles in the foamcrete and the foamcrete wobbles in the ground. Well with many wood fence posts the former happens. Im not sure why...pehaps installed in extremely high humidity or after it rains. I mean, you can tell me how many posts youve pulled. But who set them, and when? As a JOB, I have to find property pins. They are usually right next the fence posts (this depends...but, theyre usually close on most of the rear pins unless its a larger property or had a recessed fence)...I have to JUMP these fences all the time. When I say Ive seen newer (like within the last couple days to years) posts that end up being loose in the concrete...believe me...its because Ive not tested the fence first by shaking it, and have almost killed myself (sketchy rock hill behind) when it was loose. As you can imagine, if you are trying to high point your jump, and at the last second the fence moves, it throws off your leverage and all sorts of bad things can happen. Im not telling you your fenceposts that you pull arent set right. Im saying, it happens.
@@firghteningtruth7173I was referring to old posts; I never had to pull my own. Good to I know about the shrinking foam! Now I won't be suckered into trying it. As I said, some of them pull out of the cement, but most pull the whole block out with it. I'm in Georgia, red clay country. Had the same fence jumping surprise as you, more than once!
I like the idea of a 3" concert pillar giving that extra support. And when I use my John Deere weed eater, the line hits the concrete and not damaging the wooden post.
@@JoeEverest I like the idea of raised concrete because it looks clean. Where I am in Ontario Canada the frost line is about 3 1/2', if the post is above that and the cement is crowned above the frost will heave the post out. Usually for a crowned post the post would have to be 4' in the ground; good for decks. For fences I prefer to go with a 3 1/2' hole and bring the cement to 6" below the surface. This way the frost locks the post down and doesn't pop the post.
If done correctly I think it looks smart too, you can always paint it to look less obtrusive. Be interesting to see how a normally set post rots over time compared to he pillar one but that video would take over 5 years at least to see any comparative result. As a fence builder I would not like to do this on every post it would put hours on every job.
I'm in Southern Ontario, and the ground here is all clay. The wooden posts in our neighborhood that have concrete below ground level rot and have to be replaced after about 10-15 years unless there is really good drainage away from them. All of our concrete on the fence posts is above the ground level and after 22 years, only one has heaved. That one wasn't put in deep enough, because we hit a rock too big to dig out just short of the frost line depth. It was only 3 inches shy of the frost line. You really have to know exactly what what the frost line depth is for your area, or hedge on the side of caution and make the post holes deeper.
Put in 30 sections of fence in June with tubes and concrete but pre casted with post above ground and dropped post in holes then back filled and compacted . Then filled 3 inch deep by 6 inch wide trench under length of fence with smooth pebbles to allow for drainage. None of the fence touches any earth to avoid rot . Also added small rocks at the bottom of tubes ( about 3 inches)before setting in posts with screws in tubes then concrete. This all takes a little longer but this fence will be solid for years to come . Client loves the look too .
Not a professional fence installer but have worked construction all my life. I install my posts at home the same way this guy has done. It lasts so much longer letting the concrete be exposed a few inches above ground level. I just paint the concrete similar to the fence stain color.
good point but there is a solution to that. you can just put the footings above grade or you can treat the post. the vast majority of the time when a post for a deck or a fence or whatever rots it is always the parts above ground that rot out first. oddly enough the part that is in the ground lasts the longest. people think they are protecting the post by surrounding it with concrete but the only purpose of the concrete is to provide a solid foundation not to protect the post. concrete absolutely does not keep out moisture. in fact the very process of putting the post in the concrete is you soaking the post in a wet concrete bath... every time it rains the post gets wet and the moisture gets absorbed in to the wood and wicked right in to the part of the post that is in the concrete as well not to mention the concrete itself will absorbed the rain and transfer it to the post.
If you decide to use lower cost material in your fence posts you can buy a bucket of roofing tar that sales from anywhere between $20 and $40 for a 5-gallon bucket or use creosote to treat the pole against damage and rot.
Growing up on a farm, we tried to make every dollar stretch. We'd collect the dirty oil from tractors and trucks in large barrels then soak the end of the wooden post that would be in the ground in that oil. Not perfect but the posts would last 2-3 times longer than untreated posts.
I built fences for years back in the PNW. Best post technique I've used, was a concrete post designed by my father back in the 70's. Although the boards needed replacing about 5 yrs ago, the post from first fence built with them is still standing 45 years later.
Good post, it makes sense. A similar method I've used for a fence is to pre-seal the base and top of the posts and to attach cedar shingles to each side of the post soaked in oil the wider part sticking out just above the concrete (for easy removal ). After the concrete is cured the shingles are removed. The voids created are then sealed with silicone caulk. After twenty years the posts are as solid as the day the were installed.
Hey Joe when we set treated 4x4 fence post we fill the hole pea gravel or any inexpensive washed stone instead of concrete. Most of the time treated post are extremely wet when new. When putting concrete around the post sometimes they become loose as the post dries out. If you fill the hole with pea gravel as the post shrinks the pea gravel will remain tight around the post and offer good drainage and prevent post rot. It also makes replacing the pole in the future easier
interesting. I can see the mechanical drainage and future removal advantages, but hard to see how it will be a strong set for taller posts (6 ft or more). I suppose if you make the hole deeper that helps. In my region and particular yard, wind gusts seem amplified when they occur, so there will often be swaying forces that can be quite strong, especially with the fence sections acting as "sails".
@@FireflyHill24 That is interesting. What soil type is it ? Wouldn't work in my area because the whole large suburb used to be the sea-bed 25 million years ago, and the land is clay layers with tuftra volcanic ash layers and then more clay. As you packed the gravel in the hole, it would just squeeze into the clay, and you could keep that up forever, the clay is never tight or pack-able. My backyard is about 3 feet of clay then 20 feet of volcanic ash then more clay under that. Put some posts in for a new fence recently, had to go down to sit on the tuftra and put a thick pad under the post, and the hole about a foot square full of concrete. We know we have to do that, because the prevailing winds otherwise simply slowly push any smaller, higher fixtures over in the clay, like a crow bar levering.
Hey Joe-I love your show. I’ve followed you lately as I’m making modifications to my vinyl fence. I used a hi-lift Jack to remove 2 5x5 vinyl posts set in concrete. The 1st post had a huge amount of concrete in its hole and the post was filled with concrete. After hours of jacking/digging/chipping, I heard a squeaking sound and pulled the post out of the concrete!
Here in South Carolina as a fence contractor i have seen post come up leaving the concrete in the ground however that usually is due to it being an old fence or poorly mixed concrete. It is not a common problem here but it has happened
I agree with you about the concrete bonding to the wood post surface. I've removed a number of old 4x4 fence posts out of the ground that were set in concrete in a couple of the homes we owned. Without exception, every post had bonded tightly to the concrete they were set in.
I beg to differ. I run a fence company and our SOP is to jack the old posts out of the ground unless they're too rotten and snap off. About 25% of them "slip" the concrete, and brother, I've done literally thousands! We hate it when that happens but it's not too uncommon.
I think the important point is that there doesn't need to be much lift-out resistance. Lateral resistance is the important thing. Just the gravity of the post and fence is probably plenty to keep it in the hole, even if you greased the post before setting it in the concrete.
It all depends on the soil on what’s best. I’ve replaced three pressure treated post that rot at the soil line. Other post were fine. The rotted post had dirt around them. The others had shale (blue rock) as a drive way. It’s the tiny bugs that need oxygen. That’s why it’s at the soil line. All we’re set in concrete. I like adding a little gravel at the bottom for drainage cuz I live in clay soil country. And clay will form tiny canyon like river trails over time. (More of an issue with slab work. I once did a dog run for myself packing the post in with dirt and Little Rock’s maybe. Packing every couple inches. I moved out. The next owner built major stuff on top of my posts. It’s been years and still looking good. Other parts of the world find it odd we use concrete. It acts like a sponge holding moisture. I’ve used the foam but am not such a fan. I like to slope the concrete above soil, then paint it brown to seal the exposed concrete, then seal the joint at post to concrete with silicone or polyurethane caulk. And use 20$ black emulsion sealer (Henry’s) on the post and 6” above soil. (Poor man’s rot block)But… some clients don’t wanna see any concrete. So… burn the wood at the bottom sho Sugi ban style? Add motor oil. Copper green, duct tape lol. If u want longevity, use metal posts. Or masonry. Everything has its pros and cons. If want stability with foam. Use fiber rebar stabbed into the earth to act like tree roots. Or if surround is concrete side walk your fine. Foam is a wedge. Concrete is an anchor. Dig deeper and pack in 2” increments of dirt. Why not. Over time fire burns, the earth shakes. Shitty builders give job security for future workers. I hate shitty builds, and take pride in my work. Sono tubes great, if money n time is fine with it. But then might as well add post anchors for when your drunk uncle backs his ford into your fence. Switching out the post is easier. But get a long one so the wind won’t dance with your fence. All over kill. Hydraulic pushing of posts into ground. That’s cool. If you encapsulate the bottom of post don’t do the bottom edge. Cuz then you’ll make a cup and the moisture can’t escape. But it’s the bugs that make the rot at soil line. Not the moisture so much alone. Best tip not mentioned. Paint to seal exposed concrete to lessen moisture entrapment. And silicone the joint where it meets the wood. Over time that joint will open. Tiny but enough for water to do its thing. Burning it a little will deter the bugs…I think.
have done the extension of the concrete out of the ground for my deck piers. Works great, but instead of sloping the top surface of the pier in one direction, I just put more concrete on the form and slope the top surfaces down away from the post, making a bit of a cone.
Catalyst 663 is right about customers wanting no gaps under the fence, also for the 3in concrete reveal and angle for water to run off, why not just dome the concrete so water runs away from post in all directions.
Did that with the last fence but just above grade plus had fence sections a couple of inches from the ground and filled with decorative landscape pebbles. None of the fence is in contact with soil so as to avoid rotting. Looks good too .
I don't know about a 3" cap, but when I put my fence up 25 yrs ago, the concrete was poured 1.5" up at the post, sloped to grade at hole edge. Still standing strong with no significant base rot. Recent ice storm tested it with a limb. Few panels to replace, 1 2x4, posts still good.
@@algreen5559 I've heard of one fencing co. that had to remove fence and surrounding earth by environmental enforcement to the tune of $40,000 because they said they poisoned the ground after treating wooden post with a mix of sump oil and diesel. Poor guy. The cost of the fence was only $8000
I put a wood fence around the backyard of my first house some 25 years ago. It's still standing and the door hasn't sagged a bit. It was in 4' ground freeze zone so I dug the holes 5 feet, used a 4 foot sonnet tube installed flush with grade which left a 1 foot ball / anchor of concrete at the bottom of the peir.
I had a pole barn installed with 6x6 treated. The solution to soil contact was a plastic sleeve about 3 feet in length that slid over each post with about 4" exposed above ground. As mentioned in the video, the few inches at and below ground level is where rot starts. Each hole was about 3 feet deep and a concrete disk about 4" thick was placed at the bottom of each hole for support.
I put additional wood preservative on the lower part of the post, then asphalt on the sides of the post to a few inches above ground level. I did not asphalt the end so as not to trap water in the post, allowing the post to drain. I placed a layer of stones on the base of the post hole as the soil is clay. Placing the post vertically using two spirit levels strapped to it, I filled the hole with concrete ramming the mix with a pole. I then shaped the concrete so it was above the soil level and angled down to drain water away from the post. It is not unsightly but I could have added color to the concrete mix where it is visible, brown or green to make it less obvious. See how it lasts... Thanks for the excellent videos! 👍
I have set posts with a 50-50 mix of dry concrete and soil, tamped in well with a 6ft crow bar/tamper it sets up in a week or so, being porous the rain filters down through the soil/concrete mix and dries out in summer, but then again in Australia we used cypress posts 👍😊
Porous may not be such a good idea in some climates. Rot happens with water and air. I've dug wood out of the ground that was in wet clay for decades. Stuff looked like the day it went in there. That's because it was sealed like it was in a can. No air no rot. There's anaerobic bacteria but I don't know if that rots wood.
I did enjoy the video. To answer your question about pulling posts out (especially round/smooth pipe) I have never seen one come out cleanly. Every time I've had to remove a fence post, it always comes out like some sort of "club" of concrete, firmly attached to the pipe. Seems like it "should" be more possible for one to pull-out when smooth, but like you, I've never seen it (as much as I sometimes wished it WOULD.)
Footers had to be 6" minimum above ground in my Los Angeles suburb home because of termites. Wood fence posts were creosote treated or redwood ( still would rot ). For a steel fence, I would still do something to prevent "pooling" ( sloping ) and moisture retention. A dry sealed post is a happy post. Great video, thanks.
We use sono tubes when replacing broken fence posts. Sometimes removing the old concrete leaves a hole way oversized. Couldn't tell you how many times I dug out a busted gate Post that looked like somebody used eight bags of concrete on. The tube forms help with that problem, but they also allow us to use a very predictable amount of concrete. This allows us to be much more accurate in our estimates. Before using the sonotubes, we would have to fill the hole back in compacting as we went and then re-dig a more appropriate sized hole for a post.
stupid question, but, the tube stays in the ground with the concrete, correct? if the hole is way too big, just backfill around the tube with the fencepost in it? backfill just with soil, or would it help to use small chunks of concrete as part of the backfill?
I have seen first hand when removing a wood deck, the 4x4 posts were set as your video described and about a third of the posts were loose in the concrete and I could pull them out and had to dig out the concrete.
Worked for a fence building company for 20 years, only times we had post loose enough to pull out was if it had rotted. That said we saw plenty of bottom rot. We never did the peir thing like this, but would, if the customer wanted it, put a cement curb all the way around. If you do that you WILL drastically extend the life of wood posts, and make cement posts last longer then the house will. We also never used pressure treated. Out here in west Texas it gets way to hot for it. We used Cedar for everything.
What do you mean "gets way to hot for it" Cedar cost 3x what pressure treated does so I doubt most people would use cedar over pressure treated. For that price you might was well just use steel square tubing or oil field round pipe. The only thing that sucks about pressure treated is most is still wet when you buy it and its a heavy PITA to move
i live in a predominantly clay area in central Canada. when we were doing fencing we pulled lots of old fence posts out. the rot does not happen with any significance on the bottom of the post, but rather at the point where the post enters the ground. we did not set posts in concrete. we used a few inches of 3/4 down gravel at the bottom and then set the post in. we then tamped 3/4 down gravel around the post. most of our holes were between 36-42 inches deep, which still doesn't get below the frost line. setting in gravel allows you to go back and re-tamp the post if it moves through the winter. concrete doesn't allow that and once moved, it is impossible to re-set
Hey Joe, would it be practical to add an Earth tone paint (based on soil color) to the pertruding portion of the concrete so it blends into the surroundings? Are there any other (better) ways to "dress up" those foundations? What about low growth plants to mask them from view? Options, we like options!
One post out of a dozen i have had do that... then i lamed out and slid the new post down the old concrete sleeve... it took some hammering, but it worked....
In Australia, every back yard used to have a Hills Hoist (a metal rotary clothes line) and I remember that many hoists would rust through at the bottom. Why? Because every back yard used to have a free-running dog (and his doggy friends) who would lift their doggy rear legs on the hoist. Dog pee is a powerful corrosive when applied 6 times a day over 10 years.
In my experience, as to adding gravel underneath fence posts, it seems to encourage ground water to pool at bottom of post because the gravel provides a void as such. While it would drain excess water away from post, I think in the long term it would defeat the purpose
Rewatching your older videos, totally agree joe in our area anyways no need to add gravel under the posts and when cemented correctly and as long as nobody wiggles the posts while setting they should not pull out. Same for use the wooden post almost always rot at or just below grade. We combat that with post saver sleeves great product with excellent warranty.
I’ve been putting in 100+ 6x6’s 5 days a week for the last ten years and I think I’ve done 2 jobs in that time where a fence post had a sono tube. We use Sonos for footings, gazebos, pergolas but never on a fence.
@@xisotopex yes absolutely! That’s generally what we do for corner posts. They have to come out so you get that big gaping hole. Drop a sono tube in place and backfill around it like you said. And then all your line posts leading to corners cut them off flush with the concrete with a sawzall or portaband and just offset the posts beside the old concrete so your not killing yourself trying to remove everything
I agree w/ your assessment. Concrete expands & would add a gripping force on the post. Plus there's no upward pulling force on the post to pull it out of the concrete. There's a new method using foam to set those posts in & it's not as strong concrete but it works.
That have been installed for how long? Sure eventually the wood rots away. I would guess the nails get you a few more years before things get really wiggly.
At my brother's nursery, one of the greenhouses caught the wind and yanked the galvanized posts it was set in out of the concrete. Soon some posts, all the greenhouse plastic and supports, were flailing like the mace of a pissed off giant. Had to rush in and cut it off in a lull of the wind to prevent catastrophic damage to the surrounding structures. It was awesome to watch.
The concrete "pier" is good to keep the string trimmer use from damaging the wooden posts if grass is growing next to it. Of course I never use wooden posts anymore when building fences.
@@RichardMiller-tq6ut really, even after using the weed Wacker 30 times a year for 10 years? Those hundreds of times would seem to affect the woods integrity.
That would have to be one brute of a weed wacker. I have seen decades old posts that exhibit moderate wear in the weed wacking area. These were stand alone clothesline poles, light posts, mail boxes n such. I suspect this wear is more likely from mower decks. Do you really want rows of cement piers grinding up the side of your mower deck? Besides, many homeowners kill a small strip of vegetation along the fence line to prolong the life of the bottom of the pickets. This also negates the need for weed wacking if you are careful with the mower.
I use 10" sono tubes with 4x4 posts and leave concrete piers slightly exposed as well. I'm always running into 2 problems with fence posts. The majority of the 4x4 PT posts twist or split on me, and the concrete loves to crack. I use a spray bottle on the concrete during curing to keep it moist during the curing process (this seems to help a BIT but still get cracks within a few weeks). I go through so much effort to pick perfectly straight 4x4s but after install they still twist and crack and then there's nothing I can do since they're already set in the concrete. What's the trick here to KEEP them straight? How can I make the quickcrete NOT crack?
Being that my buisiness is mainly repairs (70%) I pull posts often. Vinyl posts without holes in bottom come right out of cement foundations. Wood and steel usually come out with foundations unless foundation is damaged.
thats bs. Concrete expanse when it dry's. You cant pull a vinyl post out of a concrete footing for all the tea in China. I've been installing vinyl fencing every day and you sir are full of it.
@@chrisbatchelor3717 Where no concrete is inside the post (or no more than an inch or two, vinyl posts come out of concrete pretty easy, I've done it, multiple times.
The weight of the concrete as its poured alone squeezes the plastic it sets and settles doesnt really bond and slides out like a turd after taco Tuesday definitely have to fill the hollow of plastic poles sir .
I've had one post pull out of the concrete before, it was a rough cedar 6x6 stained before cast. Pulled it out with a skid steer and when I later dug out the concrete it didn't seem cracked or damaged in any way. Its the only one that did it in the 30 posts I pulled that day.
I found if I use new wet wood posts, these posts slowly dry out and shrink, which leaves a small gap around the wood and concrete. This allows water infiltration and speeds up the rotting process.
Your comments are spot on. The reason of adding screws to the bottom is helpful in removal IMO. but screws are way to weak. I used lag bolts. i have used a mix of these tidbits of advice on the same fence and there is not much of a difference with the exception of raising the post a inch or 2 off the ground.
Usually when we are setting posts we put the concrete down low so we are below the frost lines I'm not sure where this video was taken place. But wouldn't that have the potential to heave with the concrete being up that high. I just did a repair a few weeks ago and they had set the chain link post in sauna tubes everything heaved up at least 6-8 in but I guess if you're in the warmer climates you don't have to worry about that as much
I'm currently in the process of replacing our fence and nearly every post I removed had rot beginning from the very base of the post where it had contact with the ground (and we DO have very clay-like soil btw). So, I'm on board with laying a base of gravel first.
On the wetness problem - posts, even when set in concrete, remain wet, because concrete absorbs water. As for gravel - this does not keep the bottom of the post dry. It only reduces contact with the soil.
The idea is if water gets down into the hole, it travels past the bottom of the post into the gravel (like any other time gravel is used for drainage). It makes sense in that respect. It would keep it drier than if in contact with wet soil.
Recently replaced a rotted post and found standing water inside the footing where the wood used to be. Makes sense to me that if you encapsulate a post in concrete you also just made a vessel that holds water. For the replacement post, I covered the buried portion in roofing tar except for the end grain, used gravel at the bottom of the hole plus gravel around the first few inches of the post, then poured the concrete footing using a form to give it a collar above grade which slopes away from the post. I’m pretty sure that where I live no one’s hit water by digging four feet, so I hope this method keeps my post dry.
Up here in wet rainy Oregon, some of us use Pea Gravel for the post. It helps a few ways, like if the post moves even a fraction in the wind the gravel sinks and tightens the post continually never letting the post get loose. (Just keep the pea gravel capped off). Also, the water has a drain away from the post ground level so the water rot in that spot is no longer a problem. Another way it helps is that there is no concrete mixing! Many up here think it's faster and better.
After the concrete is cured. I put roof patch around the post 3 or 3 inches and cover the top of the concrete. The rain and snow can't rot those areas where the post rots off.
7:30 it may be more acceptable if you use dyes with the concrete to make it blend more with its surroundings. Another good idea that hasn't much been explored or marketed is decorative forms for the exposed concrete to make it much less bland.
To hide those concrete pads every eight feet you could always hit them with some green spray paint to match the grass. I was having a problem with my deck posts rooting, so instead of take the time and cost tearing out the posts and replacing each one, a friend of mine suggest supporting the post and then cut the rotten portion off, then drill a couple holes into the existing concrete and epoxy rebar into those holes. Next install a new post bracket to the bottom of the cut post, then take a sonotube and place it over the existing concrete and fill it up to the new bracket you just installed. After concrete has dried remove cardboard from tube and support post
The type of soil you’re dealing with will dictate what method to use when installing posts , sandy vs loamy vs heavy gumbo vs gravel all have their own preferred installation methods
I live in Eastern Washington, you hardly seen concrete above soil line at the post unless its a built in mow strip. Go to the Western Washington and they all have concrete above soil line due to the coastal weather. Eastern Washington is mostly desert!
I always use a 2 ft piece of angle iron nailed to the post before putting in concrete( steel couple inches above grade) Never have had to replace post and I still live in the house I had built in 1975
hurricane codes here in florida require the 4X4 be drilled and pinned with rebar prior to setting in concrete for STRUCTURAL members. I have never seen the need on fenceposts. Once the concrete is cured you wont get that post out
I know a guy who put a 16” piece of 3” square tubing in a concrete form tube for his fences. Centered the tube, ran a string line to make ‘em all straight and level, concaved the concrete. Then after it set up for a good while, he dropped a 2 1/2 inch square tubing in the 3” piece and welded it out after squaring up. On the 16” piece of 3” ST he welded 1/2 rebar to make like a little stand before putting them in the form tube. I’ve never seen a post that sturdy in my life. And now I have the same desire to try it out for myself.
I drive for a scrap metal recycling services , hauled many containers of metal post still encased in concrete because they couldn't pull the post out of it. You literally have to bust the concrete to get it off.
I know right..... you could polish that post like a mirror, put a concrete release agent on it,,,, and after a week...NO WAY that post is going to pull out!
I don’t do a lot of fences or mail box posts. In my limited experience sonotubes are completely unnecessary for fence posts. Using concrete may be necessary depending on the soil and your ability to compact the backfill. Here in Connecticut tornados are pretty rare so there’s not much reason to worry about a post being pulled out of the concrete. Part of the chainlink fence in my backyard was built with post set in concrete that sits 2“-3” above grade and it’s a pain to try and mow close to it.
i thought the same thing, but i think it depends on where the posts were placed, in certain areas the wood post would be stuck to the concrete, i've noticed that in wet or just hot humid areas it will come out easily without the concrete, leaving only the area where the wood post was
I just used this method last summer (2021) when replacing my cedar mailbox post which I had just plunked into the ground. a mere 6 years ago, with a couple of bags of quickrete up to the ground surface. This time, I shou sugi ban(ed) my new cedar post to 6 inches above ground surface...soaked it in Copper Coat (also 6" above ground surface)....put gravel in the bottom of the hole...used a cylindrical form like the one shown here, which extended about 3" above ground surface....sloped the entire circumference of the concrete away from the post...then used gray Sika Flex 1a to thoroughly caulk the joint between post and concrete and continued a layer of the caulk on the entire sloped surface of the concrete in the hope that water will drain before having a chance to absorb into it. Now I guess time will tell...
Been a carpenter a long time. I spend a lot of time working with structural engineers and I never hesitate to ask why things are speced the way they are or why there done certain ways and the reasoning behind it.heres some relevant info I have learned over the years. Concrete doesn't need to bond to the wood to work. It's liquid back fill. The weight is irrelevant to the footing also. It is there to increase the surface area of the post base against the soil. The soil will compact and be pushed by the lateral load on the post at a certain psi. Increasing the surface area lowers the psi the post exerts under load (wind). The depth of the post in the ground should be proportional to the height of the fence or wall at a 2-1 ratio. Ex 6' fence using 4x4 at 8' OC spacing should have no less than 3' embedded in the ground. This in based on fence height not post height. Many fences use 5' of post out of ground with 6' pickets that extend past the top of the post. The this rule of thumb goes out the window when frost line is below the bottom of the post. Where I live frost is 42" in clay soil it is recommended that your post be below frost line regardless of the rule No mater the height of the fence. Frost cycles will destroy a fence. As for the wood rot in all wood is caused by microbe decay. Treated wood of any level will succumb to this. The base of the post does not need to be encapsulated and you don't need gravel. The reason the post rots at the grass line is because the soil moisture varies. Wood that is fully saturated with water and stays fully saturated can not rot as the microbes need oxygen to survive if the wood is under water in the ground it does not rot. At the grass line it gets wet but not to wet and the microbes for to work. As discussed there are several levels of treatment for wood and this does effect longevity as the treatment does not allow the microbes to survive in the wood. There is above ground treatment which is ok for things that don't touch the ground in areas that are not to wet. Ground contact for items that touch the ground but are not in the ground such as sill plates or deck posts on a pier. And then there are a few levels of submersion treated lumber these are specifically for being in the ground or in water such as fence posts, pole barn posts and dock posts. Creasote treatment is one of the highest levels and is used for critical items such as telephone poles and rail road ties. They will rot but that only happens when the creasote leaches back out of the wood. Ties used in retaining walls are usually the old used ties the rail road takes out and that's why they rot out they might already have been used for 30+ years in a railroad before they were a wall. If you want to maximize the life of a post make sure you get the right post.
So a TOTALY stupid thought, If you dig two 3' long by 1'wide by 3' deep trenches in a plus or 'cross' pattern in the ground. Then drill holes in the post to place four 3' rebar through the post. Then pore the concrete, you would create a concrete base in the shape of a cross with strong resistance to lateral force. Total overkill, but that would be better then a circle in the ground. If we are thinking about the lateral forces from wind pushing against the fence.
For posts that need lateral strength, making em wider reduces psi. Lately I do this with a pvc pipe set in concrete on gravel base then come along later, drop the posts into the tube and pack with pea gravel. They install super easy once tubes are set and 3' (as needed) tubes are easy to set fairly plumb still room to plumb the post after. Finally, wrap the collar 2" above grade with foam tape to create a caulkable gap and pour a small collar to slope water away from gravel to outside of tube. Basically a concrete or morter flashing cap. In my mind this is structurally as good as simple concrete, but better drainage, pvc is a water barrier to wet soil and collar to rain. And replacing posts is super easy. I had to do it on a remodel once. Oh, and where pull out is a concern, drill and pin the post to the pvc tube near top with something galvanized or SS Even roofing screws. Bust the collar and drive out pins if changing posts is ever required. Will let you know in 20 years if its brilliant or stupid technique!
Vinyl post are probably different. I have a 4 rail fence on my property with a lots of trees. Recently, strong winds brought one of my trees down on part of the fence. Broke two posts and six rails. It's happened before and I usually dig down on one side of the post and remove it. Frost line is 20" and post are 30" in the ground with concrete 4" below grade. 5" sq post with 12" diameter holes. So, I tried something different this time. I cut the post about 6" above grade and made a wooden block (oak) jig to fit tightly inside of the post that I fastened through with two 1/2" bolts. I made a steel plate with an eyelet and used lag screws to fasten to the top of the block. With my tractor and chain on my bucket, I pulled straight up and the post came out smoothly. It didn't break the concrete at all. Those concrete pours are compacted into the ground. Anyway, I cut the new post to size and fit them back in. Stout as ever. I installed the fence myself and most of the posts are center in the hole. May not work for a vinyl privacy fence but a 4 rail fence does not have hardly any wind load. Save me a lot of work as far as not digging. Not my first rodeo with fallen trees. I have over a 1/4 mile of fence with a lot of trees. The jig took me awhile to make but now its my go to extraction method. May not work all the time but its worth a shot first try. Sorry for the long post.
I have a photo of a 6x6 post rotted out at the bottom - in fact we pulled a few of these posts straight out of their footings and placed Postmaster Plus posts in the same hole the 6x6 was in. No need to repace footings, just added about a bag of sakrete. Im not 100% certain these posts were rotted from water - could have been an insect. Seattle area.
I like this guy's style. Seems straightforward. No B.S. Open to varied experience comments. I had watched the video he reviews previously and had my own opinions to compare/contrast. I am just a homeowner trying to figure out how to direct contractors. My main concern is post rotting out where it hits the ground which is what has happened to current fence. I am one of the homeowners who would be willing to see the concrete foundation reveal for the added longevity.
In reference to that first question, if the lumber is green enough at the point of placement, they can shrink as its seasons. I have seen instances where posts "pulled away" from the concrete. Not sure how pressure treatment may influence the Lumbers propensity to shrink. I would guess it would never equate to a total failure, but with a come along I have pulled a post out of the anchored concrete ballast. Leaving a neat square hole in the concrete. In any normal function of the post, tied in with a series of fencing, it would never fail outside of a very unique application of Leverage.
I built 110 ft of fence and sprayed bed liner right where the post comes out of the concrete. Not perfect but has added little extra water resistance. I also painted all brackets brown for an extra good look.
If your making a deck, you don't need to put expensive wood into concrete. Just fill the sonotube with concrete, then put a post holder on top. That way your fabulous wood wont even touch the concrete, and not rot, if it is kept dry. Be sure to put the bolt in the concrete before it dries so that you can attach your post holder to that bolt.
Larry's suggestion is on point. Another option is using a tube that has the bottom sealed, setting your posts plumb on both axes, and then pouring closed-cell foam into the tube. Lasts forever, zero chance of water infiltration, kits are commercially available, is incredibly fast, you don't need a concrete truck for large jobs, and all the materials are lightweight. Blew my mind when I saw it.
You need air for rot. I have pulled dozens of pt posts out on the farm and the rot is only at about an inch above and below the grade line. I remember one post where the hole filled with water as fast as we pulled the post out and the buried part was in better condition than the top part!
About 22 years ago I built a 20’ sliding pressure treated privacy fence that required a concrete pad so the wheels had a solid surface to not only sit on but open onto alongside a garage. A 10’ treated 4x4 was sunk 48” into the ground to sandwich the rolling structure between it and the garage on one side and the other side was simply pinned with stainless rods into another 4x4 shared with a 3’ wide privacy gate. Well over the years those 4x4’s shrunk a little as well as cracked, which allowed water to enter the rebar reinforced 6” deep concrete pad...and then the freeze/thaw cycle produced some hairline cracks. The point is, yes the treated wood did shrink and crack but it still seems quite strong. For the 300’ of privacy fence I installed 10 years ago, I again sunk 4x4 posts 48” into the ground but this time I merely packed ‘em with something called ‘County mix” which is a sort of gravel mixed with a lot of stone fines (dust). The idea was to keep the microbes in the dirt from attacking the wood. The 16’ gate posts were set in concrete. Everything is still perfect, no frost heaving, no visible rot or weakening, and no weeds around the posts. I just wish I had cut the picket edges to make ‘em lap for privacy. Sadly the quality and thickness of the pickets aren’t what they used to be. I’m battling huge carpenter bees that bore tunnels under the rails and the males flying around guarding it. I just started spraying ‘em with Sevin attached to a garden hose and that seems to provide peace for a day until their replacement arrives. Well that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. P.S. My next crazy idea is to build an aluminum frame across my driveway and attach lightweight cedar pickets so the fence would rise like a garage door into a carport. I just need to determine what a torsion spring can handle.
In Central NY you want 2 inches of foam board at the bottom of a 4ft hole followed by packed gravel around the post. Concrete is very conductive and will cause frost heave removing your fence posts from the ground.
Good video and good knowledge I will add working for a fence company we have had issues in the past were a post didn’t bond correctly to a concrete and slips out but that was operator failure due to the concrete not being mixed correctly and not being wet enough to bond to the metal post and pulled up
Anchoring the post is typically only for uplift resistance when building a structure on the post. Not needed for fences, signs,etc. They will definitely pull out of the concrete as there is no bonding between the concrete and wood. There are different expansion and contraction rates for these materials as well.
Never seen a post just pull out of the concrete, usually have to beat it off. Maybe you are the true fence king and can pull it right out like the kid and the sword in the stone.
Up here in Canada where the frost goes deep. What I do is put the post well below the frost line and also cement the bottom then soil then crushed rock around the top 30" or so. This way the ground doesn't freeze to the post and lift it out. The crushed rock also keeps moisture away from the post prolongin the life of the post. From my point of view this always works providing the water table is below the frost line.
@Oregon Patriot For me it is about half the labor to dry set. It has worked for years for me. I always add some water in three stages as I fill the hole. If you have wet ground you don't need much water.
Very true a post will rot at the first 6 inchs from top of soil i treat post with tar around ground line it keeps concrete from causing the post to swell when concrete is wet and then dry and shrink leaving gap for water to pool at ground level thus causing rot
So I’ve been installing for 22 years, what I’ll say about concrete and wood is that if you can dig deep enough on a wood fence concrete should never be used al you do is promote rot and lock in all the moister it never goes away and stays in the posts whether cedar or pt. I’ve replaced so many cemented rotted at the base posts. Wood should never be cemented in. Example: when building a deck you set tubes fill them add cleats to the Crete and faster your deck upright on the clamp. Reason for this is to prevent rot deep in the ground and now buried in feet of concrete. This is a negative thing
From what I've seen, concrete at the bottom of the hole acts as a cup to hold water against the open grain at the bottom of the post. The concrete is also a pain to extract when replacing the rotted post.
I started installing in 1984 or so and I always used concrete around wood posts. Generally, treated 4 x 4's, if they're going to rot, rot where the posts exits the concrete. Makes it a pain to get the concrete out.
It takes 40+- years for concrete to dry your soil no matter where on earth doesn't take that long to dry! Every bad deck /footer /etc ive seen have been rotten at the concrete connection not whats been exposed to them elements. Built a fence in the green swamps of florida i can tell you no concrete worked longer and better granted like he said you had enough penetration of course wood selection was most important but I completely agree
Rebar through the bottom of the post about 6-12in from the bottom and sink the post 2-3ft. Always place a concrete brick at the bottom of the post. In northern climates use rebar as well because the freezing temperatures can squeeze the post out of the concrete.
I've extracted wood posts from concrete many times, and discovered that the wood dimensions have shrunk to the point where it's actually possible to lift wood posts out of a concrete bed - and then replace the post with a new one! Apparently, wood may shrink over time, but concrete - not so much. IN addition, concrete post beds may fracture, especially when the wood/concrete gaps collect water which freezes in the winter, the water expands, and fractures concrete away from the wood post. Another item to note when using wood in it's vertical orientation - is that wood structure is designed (by our Father in heaven) to suck water up from the bottom and move it up towards the top. Unlike many man-made systems, wood may continue to function as a water conduit even after the tree is dead. (That shows that our Father's wood design was superior). So, if you put a 4x4 post in the ground, it's a good idea to seal the bottom with tar, because that seals off much of the water intake. Water generally does NOT travel through wood laterally. only up. If you can figure out which end of the post was the original top - it's best to stick that end down. Because - yes- the Father designed wood with one-way conduit. Pretty impressive.
@@gartner101 You'd need to do a microscopic analysis of the wood fibers. You might possibly determine the original orientation by analysis of the tree rings, and/or the direction of the branch structures.
I have a 6x6 post with ground rot that is a support beam for the roof of my front porch. How is the best way to fix it without having to detach it from the roof? County inspectors suggested pouring a 24x24x16 foundation and attaching the post by putting a bracket in the concrete.
i guess everyone has their own ways.... i use simple used oil to coat the post, but not on the bottom. i key it on 2 sides, put it in the hole, backfill, then go get a beer cause that one's done.
@@johnbuck9701 motor oil or used transmission fluid will cure the wood and make it almost completely waterproof and keep bugs away. The benches in all national parks, that wood is treated with transmission fluid before they are painted. They will last for decades in the elements and bugs stay away.
@@johnbuck9701 yes sir. and you can probably get it at a local garage for free if you don't have any. not the bottom so it can possibly drain but i just do what will be in the ground, not the whole post. i stain that. sure, back fill and tamp it down with a size 12. keys as big as you like. i coat them too and stagger the keys. there are probably videos on it, but there's no wrong way. im sure you won't fail and you'll be pleased.
The screws aren't added to prevent pulling the post out. They are added to reduce odds of the post twisting or wiggling in concrete. Outdoor hand rails are a great example. They get pushed and pulled and leaned on repeatedly. They start wiggling or moving over time. The screws help prevent that.
I've been really enjoying these videos. I'm not a fencer but it's great seeing all of the variations and learning about the negatives or benefits they bring. P.S. Never been able to pull a post out of concrete before. Where I come from it's really really wet and we usually see rot at the top of the post before the bottom.
Well at least you have something to hold onto when you remove the posts. Mine rot at the bottom. I have to dig the concrete out. I went and bought a farm jack to get ready for replacing post and then it rots at the bottom. Dang it.
I have no idea about wood posts in concrete but I have chainlink fence about 40 yrs old and the concrete was poured to ground level and not left below the frost line. After 40 yrs all the posts have risen about 4 inches out of the ground from freezing water seeping under the concrete. I'm a firm believer in keeping the concrete below ground now.
In my part of the world, treated pine products are usually pretty wet, and shrink significantly in time. This means posts will eventually get loose, but usually not enough to cause any issues. I have poured epoxy down the gap (after a long dry spell) to remedy the problem. And whacking a couple of 14G screws into the post (Batten screws for wood, and Tek screws for steel) is cheap insurance. Same as good anchor tackle for a boat.
Gotta get me one of those sludge hammers your talking about because ive wacked posts until theyve snapped in two with my sledge hammer and never did anything to help get it out of the ground..
as a lawn guy I love when this is done. then when I trim i don't have to worry about trimmer line damaging the post. flip side when I do post for people i just dome the concrete at grade level. its not so unsightly and does the same thing. just my .02
Ive done a lot of fencing in all types of ground, even in swampy ground the post does not rot below ground level, in fact below ground level is preserved, like bog butter etc. Typically its the part right at ground level that rots and sometimes the very top of the post.
