streamed Aug. 7, 2020 Loosely based on a tweet (reader beware, you're in for a scare): BackupBlizzy/stat... Follow Sajam on Twitter & Twitch: / sajam / sajam Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste: / magicmoste #FGC
When I started SFV I inmediately picked G and sticked with him ever since, I can't feel comfortable enough with any other character lul, I've tried Sakura, Lucia, Juri, Seth, spent so much time on training mode with all of them but I just can't get to the point where I say "Alright, I think I'm ready", so I just pick G again and play
The advice at 7:55 is a good one that's easy to forget. I was asking an artist friend for help learning to draw and he told me to ditch the program I was following and to just draw. When I told him that I wanted to understand fundamentals, he said "You aren't going to understand how to apply those skills until you make errors. Then, you'll understand why things are done the way they are." It's tough for those of us who like rules and strategies, but valuable to keep in mind.
Hot take: people that insist on hours of training mode before being 'allowed' online are taking waifu cockfighting too seriously. Being a scrub is ok, not learning from scrubbery is the only real barrier.
Still believe you should take your character to training mode to understand how the character works, but yes the best way to truly learn is to play online and get bodied and learn matchups.
That just sounds like an excuse to stay bad at the game. If someone doesn't want to put in effort then they should just say it instead of hiding behind the worn out "toxic mentality" argument.
I personally never go online in a fighting game until I have numerous combos at my disposal for most situations, bot matches to actually see how landing the counter hit launchers work or whatever, then after I feel very solid, I go online. That way, my execution and combos will carry me faster to the point where matchup knowledge becomes important, and now I have all the time to only think about that, and not worry about combos/execution. If I just hop on, I can look at a loss and say "well it would probably make a massive difference if I actually combo them correctly, or know what moves to throw out"
Edit: Since everyone's doing a hot take, here's mine: Frame data is a usability issue in FGs and should be visualized in every single game. Not sure if this has ever been discussed but I think what demonizes training mode in many people's minds is that they don't know how to utilize it. I find that not knowing how to practice makes a lot of language learners plateau quickly. I don't see why this wouldn't be the case with FGs. Training mode is like a blank canvas. It's not always clear how you should utilize it even though the concept of practice is deceptively obvious. You play the game, something blows you up and you go to training mode to figure it out and practice dealing with it. What helps learners who don't know how to practice is to give them common scenarios they need to figure out how to handle and receive feedback on their answers. FGs could implement special practice minigames that start with having the player attempt to handle them on their own. After a few failed attempts, the game can provide the answer then let them practice in a controlled manner.
How is this a hot take? Seems p good to me. Demonize is a strong word though. Some players give zero shits about frame data and end up really good through trial and error
@@o.o.4238 I wrote the big part of the comment first then added the take on frame data. Demonize is probably not the right word, but a lot of people are put off because of a misconception that hours of training mode are a requirement to playing FGs. There's this concept called the "learner journey" which fighting games have yet to get right. Some of the best games have their learner journey baked into the overall experience in a way that feels natural and makes use of little to no info-dumping. Were FGs to adopt a similar approach, they'd become a lot more palatable.
Hell yeah! If I wasn't lazy, I'd do training mode in my game like that - gradually increasing handholding. A version of this 'show, don't tell' I recently encountered in card game, marvel snap. It starts you off with explaining basic mechanics on how to drag cards onto play field, without ability to make wrong move at all. Then on how to win the match. Then on how to edit deck with clear 'oh, this card is better than the one in default deck. Because it has words, and the other one doesn't' Then you are free to play in a kiddie pool, while earning a special set of cards, but all the gameplay is already working. It goes on until you hit rank 10. Where you have 3 special matches in your normal pvp queue, explaining the snap mechanic (increase the stakes of ranked points when you are winning), when to run away from clearly unwinnable match. Great tutorial. (Sajam says that he plays card games too. And it's bordering competitive genre anyway, just without execution barrier)
Hot take: Single player content (e.g. story mode), at least a decent port of it should serve as a semi-tutorial to the game and offer a play experience similar to action games but in a way that makes player use different tools to overcome the opponent. Example of it is enemy showing a clear sign and becoming more resistant to a type of attack (like mid&lows), until you grab or overhead to break his defense. Then it shifts to a different mode which you have to figure out again. At the end of the day, PvE is PvE, you can't make an AI that truly interacts like human, and for single players to be fun you have to think from the perspective of a single player game (and try making it a good entry way into PvP).
Hot take: Fighting games should have a general overview of each character on their roster. What I mean is that the game (in training mode at least) should tell you how a character plays and what their strengths are. That way, it can at least tell new people to the series how a character might function.
This sort've already exists in Tekken and Smash. The problem is the devs and pros who make these opinions usually end up being pretty far off the mark. As the best players utilize them in entirely different and unforeseeable ways.
Soul Calibur VI has this. The combat lessons in the pause menu break the characters down (beginner, intermediate, advanced) and talk about their key tools and their uses, as well as the little details of how particular reversal edge options work for the character. It’s extremely helpful when you’re just jumping into a new character
People say you "have" to go to training mode because they think that losing a bunch of times is like really bad or something and training for a long time will prevent this. Neither is true. Losing is how you learn to play and training mode doesn't actually teach you how to win.
Setups and execution are important, but maybe learning that one jump-in heavy + double super for 50% damage isn’t the most important thing to start with. Practice your bnb combos and solid neutral tools (like Sajam mentioned poke>anti air), but don’t treat your dummy like a dummy and develop bad habits.
There are so much more utility to training mode than what was said on this video. Training mode can help you understand why you lost, which is even more important
@@numa2k147 100%, I was more thinking of the idea that you need to spend time in training mode before going and playing against people. But without playing against people you don't really know what to train.
hot take: fighting games should tell you what a character's good poke, anti air, and main special move to use while being taught the game plan of the character... or sajam should make a 2 minute video for every fighting game character again
i disagree on this one. the main apeal of fighting games is that your suppose to interact with other people through game imo. this is of course fighting with others, but also finding solution together and not be recluded in a single player mode. Even though you may progress alone, with a lot of time spent on the game without tutorial, what's the point if there is no one to play with? what fighting games needs is a way to share our knowlege in-game so we can get good together
@@ununun9995 you know what, i like that, i'd want a community tutorial where you can create scenarios for others, kinda like the combo missions/punish trials but it's for match up knowledge
The points about training mode are really good. Often its helpful to jump into matches to figure out what questions you should be asking. Then you go back to training to find answers.
Sure if you already have a decent grasp of fighting games already. People who are learning how to play the genre arent going to be able to figure out what they don't know in the duration of a few ranked matches.
@@ContainsMultitudes Well, I don't think those people would really benefit from just going straight into training mode either outside of figuring out how to do moves. They still should be playing, but just with low ranks or arcade mode so they can actually do moves, get accustomed to the controls, and figure out what they like and find their own "strategy" if they can.
D.J. Howell in my experience a lot of those types of people just don't have the willpower to stick around until they figure out what is going on, because as the other guy said, training mode doesn't help much either if you're still clueless. You just have to keep playing until that spark ignites in your brain and you're like "oh wait a second" that's how I did it and it was even hard for the people that started these games before me.
I've seen people get frustrated when they jump into a match not knowing things, and wishing they had at least _some_ training mode time to understand anything. I agree that it may not be helpful for a completely new player to stay in training mode for hours, but just jumping into matches can feel overwhelming and almost hopeless, if you get stomped then you aren't learning shit, just learning how nice the game may look I guess.
@@somethingsomething9006 Not all people learn the same way. I learn really fast from getting stomped. Faster than I do from winning. I have felt myself leveling up when playing a much better opponent to the point where the next guy I play feels like a joke. Some people get too flustered when getting stomped and just mash buttons, but if you struggle and really try to defend and attack as best you can, those skills will come very much in handy.
I want to see the soulcalibur 5 lobby system back. They had rooms for 50 players at once where you could just chat with others as well as fight so it felt more connected than just hitting the ranked button and seeing one guy that you don't communicate with
If a fighting game doesn’t have a single player I’m not gonna play it. I’m sorry but I like single player fighting game stuff and the lack of it pisses me of.
I think all fg have singleplayer modes, but thats not really the point of fighters, there are other genre's more suited to people like you... example beat em ups, of course that doesnt stop anyone to play fighters.
@@HelmuthGerka But having single player modes can get more people to play fighting games and potentially even expanding the FGC. While the main point of FGs may be the multiplayer aspect, single player should still be taken into account.
the motion input coment triggered me so hard i wanted to end my life just to not share the same timeline as this dude, holy shit that was some hot garbage
Hot take: I think the preconceptions of most fighting game beginners are founded in the fact that many fighting games are designed obtrusively for newer players. The fgc has a tendency to dismiss the concerns of newer players who have a hard time getting into fighting games as "lazy" even though many of them are more than willing to learn MOBAs and every other type of 'complex' game under the sun. It is much easier to assume the worst about these players than it is to openly listen to the valid criticisms they make, like the fact that most fighting games only pay lip-service to the idea of teaching new players without giving them anything of value, have weak netcode and lobby systems that make already difficult games even harder to get into, and inconsistent matchmaking that pits them against players who can dismantle them with ease (although this is likely a product of the active playerbase numbers).
@Halcyon Days "coming from a place of little to no experience" this is precisely the issue I was discussing. If a player picks up a game and feels like they have to spend hours in training mode even though the game is no more complex than a MOBA, the game has failed to teach them in an engaging way. The fact that so many new players make this assumption and cite it as one of their reasons for quitting fighting games suggests a problem that cannot, or rather should not, be dismissed with the usual "they're just lazy" mantra that the fgc has become all too comfortable using. The same applies for this argument that there's "no one to blame for your loss but yourself". You can treat all these people as if they're mumbling idiots who go crying at the first sight of any kind of challenge, or you could treat them like people who spent their own money to actively learn a game only to realize they weren't having fun during their extended periods of complete confusion. Besides the fact that there's no way to prove that statement, it's yet another example of how easy it is to dispel criticism by assuming the worst about the people providing it. The reason I brought up MOBAs in my original comment is because by and large, MOBAs have mastered the art of teaching complex games simply. The problem with "sitting down to learn like they would have with anything else they want to do" is that a lot of newer players simply don't enjoy the learning process of many fighting games. By virtue of their design, MOBAs don't demand anything from their newer players in terms of muscle memory. If you forget what a move does or forget its hotkey, all you have to do is look down and it's right there. This means that most beginners might not even realize that there is a training mode in games like DOTA 2. The game helps them reach a level of intentionality without locking it behind the perceived requirement of hours of training. I'm not advocating for simpler inputs in fighting games, just that these games don't do nearly enough to help beginners reach intentionality. Design educates perception in many cases. People don't spend money on games they're determined to hate, no matter how much the fgc says otherwise. I own a few fighting games and love playing most of them, but I would much sooner recommend a game like DOTA or League to someone if they just want a good competitive experience.
@@AriyanK0091 I think Fantasy Strike pretty much solves the things that actually obstruct new players from getting into fighting games. Not with the simplified inputs, but the much more clear information they provide about the gameplay. The character videos, the movelist that explains what each move does and sometimes tells you where you might use them, and the in game visual information like the different "auras" for invincibility, armor and counter states and being able to tell if you're at advantage or disadvantage due to the blue and red flashes. It's all very well done, my friends whose only fighting game experience is drunk Mortal Kombat at house parties could play it right after watching the tutorial and the character video of whoever they picked. The almost non-existent execution and the small movelists surely help a lot to enhance all those things when it comes to making the game easier to pick up, but I don't think they are necessary. At the very least every fighting game can benefit from having a big red flash that tells newcomers that they shouldn't mash after I block their sweep.
@@welcometovalhalla2884 Fantasy strike seems like one of the games that genuinely tries to be unambiguous in its design, and I'd imagine it's a lot more fun to get into during the early stages. I think there's a much more intricate discussion to be had about games like FS and Divekick and whether or not they sacrifice on too much of the depth of the genre along with its complexity. There may very well be a case for that. I'm sure plenty of people would argue that even a game like DBFZ loses out on a lot of potential depth because it only has 3 attack buttons and very simple execution, but I still haven't decided on that argument. Perhaps I'm overdue for a try at Fantasy strike. However, I do still think it's a shame to see some developers in the industry try to simplify their games in hopes of reaching a wider audience when there's still so much that can be done to make their existing games much more accessible in the early stages. Games like Guilty Gear and Tekken are awesome due in large part to their depth, and it's more than a little disappointing to see those games fail to maintain the attention of many beginners. I feel that developers should put more effort into demonstrating to newer players why their game is fun rather than simplifying it until it doesn't feel like the same game.
@@voltekka47 I would be much more comfortable making this assumption if many fighting game beginners didn't also love watching fighting games and didn't also enjoy games like Smash, which offer a similar competitive experience without the complicated learning phase. Although this is anecdotal, this is exactly what I was like before I started really enjoying fighting games. I would watch the Evo grand finals for every single game and even owned a few of the games myself, but I could never get into them despite knowing I would enjoy them if I ever figured out how to play. Years later, after spending a lot more time talking to people online and watching high level play, I've finally reached intentionality with games like Skullgirls and DBFZ. The fact of the matter is that most fighting games, even the ones that are riddled with flaws in netcode, UI, and other QoL features are still really fun to play. It is a developer's responsibility to show a prospective fighting game fan why their game is worth the effort. There is a reason why games like DOTA and League put so much time, effort, and money into developing robust teaching tools for their newer players instead of adopting the laissez-faire approach of many fighting games. Teaching a player while keeping them engaged is one of the universal dilemmas of game design, and one that too many otherwise great fighting games don't make a meaningful attempt at.
Training mode was actually a barrier for me, but in the opposite way. The first fighting game I played was KOF XIII, and I got obsessed with optimization (I have 160+ hours in-game, but I've basically never gone online). I've gotten better about it now, though. My standard procedure for a new game is to learn a midscreen and corner combo, play a round of arcade to get used to the length of my buttons, then I go online.
My hot take: Fighting games haven't been able to grow as a genre because they're still developed with an arcade mentality. This mentality is why most fighting games have terrible single player content, tutorials, and online. If gameplay has been the main draw for the genre since its inception, why focus on anything else?
I've had this concept in my mind for *years* now of a fighting game whose single player mode is structured like an RPG designed to teach you the fundamentals of fighting games by *playing the game*. Something that someone with fighting game experience will breeze through, but one who is learning will be given time to learn. There's a lot of little gimmicks I can think of to encourage players to learn while rewarding them with stuff in the game. For example: for the first several hours of the game, reducing a 'random encounter' enemy to 0 hp doesn't kill it, it instead puts it in a stunned state until you hit it with a specific special move (maybe put the input required for the special move over the dizzy creature's head). That stun state will get shorter and shorter as you progress until eventually you've got to use a special move as part of the combo you killed it with. That way the player has a need to learn how to throw a hadouken or shoryuken on command, and has several instances to practice it. There are other ideas, but it essentially boils down to "use actual game design techniques for teaching mechanics to help your players learn how to play". And over the course of a multi-hour "RPG mode" I think you could build the fundamentals to actually get into fighting games properly.
@Halcyon Days Least relevant **to you**. A lot of people play fighting games and the FGC isn't all of them. Imagine if MOBAs only catered to the people who join tournaments, how big do you think they'd be? If you don't want fighting games to go the way of flight sims where you pay $200 dollars for a good game, they have to be designed around casuals too.
hot take: fighting games should have some kind of explanation to tell people who have NEVER played fighting games how to do quarter circle motions, shoryuken motions, and all the bizness. Sure, some might know how to research this on youtube or reddit or whatever, but I assume a lot of newcomers don’t realize this and end up like me back in the day: sitting in training mode trying to fiddle with my fingers and getting frustrated there was no one around to teach me. eventually I did figure it out, but I’m sure there are many who give up without realizing how “easy” these motions can be.
Yeah, fighting games aren't that hard to learn but they need to do a lot better with tutorials. Too many fighters just say "press all of these buttons to do an attack and press these buttons to do a super move, have fun!~" and then people think that fighting games are just about button mashing and then they get frustrated when they lose and end up thinking that fighting games are all about learning big combos or that their opponents are cheating by using a zoning or grappler playstyle. Even the better, in-depth tutorials like Skullgirls or Under Night aren't that great for new players because people don't go into games expecting the tutorial to be 50 parts long and have lots of reading and parts that are actually challenging. It just further pushes the "fighters are too complicated and difficult to learn" narrative. Feels like Them's Fightin Herds is the only thing that's even attempted to do a story mode that teaches you how to play naturally through gameplay. A dedicated training mode for practising motion inputs sounds like a great idea for new players as well. Sounds a lot more useful than MK's fatality training.
I have to spend a lot of time in training mode because my muscle memory is slow to adapt to new patterns. 10 minutes is how long it would take me to get an easy-intermediate combo down the first time, and it'd take at least half an hour to get that crap into muscle memory. Advanced combos seriously take hours for me to learn.
I mean some combos take me weeks to become consistent with, when I was learning to do Heihachis double omen combos it took me about 3 weeks to get them down consistently and months to get to where I rarely drop them.
Hot take: I don’t think playing a shoto is the best way to learn a game. While learning SFV rn, I see a lot of beginners pick Ryu bc thats what you’re “supposed to do”. IRL this causes them to use Fireball/DP/Sweep/Parry when unsafe. Its almost like Shotos have too many tools for newbies
tell me more, dude. i always wanted to give them a shot. what is your favoutite? are they alive online? is netplay good? is there an arena community somewhere? pokken was a blast when i tried it. too bad is on switch and i only have a pc
Stumblebee's latest video pretty talks about everything that keeps arena fighters from enticing fighting game players, and there's just no company that is gonna completely break from those scrub- (not casual; scrub) pandering traditions. It's honestly sad.
My late hot take: Fighting game lobbies should focus on getting you in and out of sets as seamless and speedy as possible. None of this Guilty Gear Strive, BBtag, Granblue nonsense where you have to control a chibi character, find a station, wait for an opponent to join your station, play rounds that end in less than 2 minutes, then are sent back to the lobby and have to potentially do all of that over again. Max said this in a video awhile ago as well, it feels like they want you to do everything but actually fight. Like I just want to play the damn game please. Arcsys always do ranked match queue, but never a player match queue. Put a MvC3 style of matchmaking and I’d be playing Arcsys’ games 24/7 man.
This is a genuinely useful video for newcomers. The term "training mode" may be the single biggest turn off to people wanting to try out a fighting game.
7:14 is facts, that held me back quite a bit in guilty gear. I wish I would've just spent time looking for games, as opposed to trying to beat all of the challenges. (I still cant do a hit confirm air DP)
Also, all training modes should have a "combo construction" functionality, where you can select inputs from the character skills, order them, then practice that order and changed different moves out to find ways to optimize combo's easier. That's what I call quality of life.
I genuinely believe that Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of arena fighters. Nobody talks about it outside of the longstanding community bubbles, but people run sets and lobbies in those games. It's probably the most successful arena fighter franchise ever made, and it's supposed to be PvE. I think that says a lot about the state of arena fighters and fighting games as a whole.
@@RougeMephilesClone Isn't the online aspect of Dark Souls abysmal? I thought that connections were terrible in Souls games. Have I been misled by memes?
@@P0rk_Sinigang Nah it's pretty trash. 90% of the time you have to use weapons with huge swing ranges cause the way lag works is that you literally cannot hit another player since you see them 5s in the past.
I had the opinion that spending way too much time in training mode was what I should be doing. And then at some point I was getting burnt out because I was playing to study the game too much and not fighting anyone. Fast forward to a couple days ago, some dude with good hair told me to stand around 1/4 screen and hit Sagat st. MK a lot and look for anti airs. I won matches, lost matches, and learned more by doing than by studying.
I spend like 1 hour in the training room when I first start after doing the tutorial and get a few wins anyway. Afterwards I learn longer combos but still not anywhere near optimal and then go online again. Excessive time in the training room is unnecessary when you are first starting the game.
Hot Take: Zoning characters? Yeah, those characters who win by staying far away, throwing loads of projectiles and attacks from a distance and basically owning neutral from the word go? Those dumb characters?! ... *Devs, stop being afraid to make them GOOD. I want to see tier lists where the zoner character is High or even Top tier!* And people hating on that playstyle need to shut up and learn they can't always get in for free and sometimes you gotta work a little harder to get your reward. Know darn well zoning characters have to struggle to learn how to get out of bad situations with limited get-off-me options.
Good Zoners in fighting games are like Control decks in card games. Most people hate to play against them, but they're there for a reason: to stop those degenerate gorillas!
@@Ed-1749 It's not the amount of tools, but the quality. And nothing says "bad quality" like making a zoner vulnerable to basic game systems. Devs - "Aye, let's give Ms. Zoner 20 projectiles, and 19 of them can simply be crouched under. But don't give her a get-off-me option, that'd be too strong!" Stuff like that...
@@Ed-1749 I'm certainly not undervaluing anything. Decrying the absence of an option is not ignorance of its influence. Look at a zoner like Gardevoir from Pokken: Has like 7 unique distanced attacks, but also sports an AoE attack that stuffs attacks, a basic counter option with above-average properties, and even a short-range teleport. She's not the best fighter, but only 'cause other characters have some stupid-good options. :P But she can fend off aggressors and isn't completely reliant on distanced options. Now look at Frieza from DBZF. Clearly supposed to be a zoner, sporting a bunch of projectiles and even an attack that hits a large portion of the screen almost immediately. But his efforts to zone are for naught; That big attack can be super-jumped over, and most of his projectiles are beaten by a universal _offensive_ mechanic. Most egregious though is other characters who technically aren't zoners can do a better job AND have get-off-me options to boot! Again it's not the quantity but the quality. In as such some devs simply have a better mentality for game balance than others. The ones with a limited perspective will typically create very flawed characters, both in terms of being weak AND being broken (yeah I have experienced no-charge Guile).
My take: To think that the entry to a game should be high simply because you had a rough time getting into the genre is very 'boomer-esque'. At it's core, fighting games are still games. They are supposed to be fun. So no, simplifying the games is not making them easier. People who just go around saying "Oh, man! They're dumbing down the game!" are just trying SO HARD to be cool.
I would like to see more fighting games with spectator modes where you can watch other random players' matches. Even better if you can add an option for individual characters or matchups if you want to study.
Hot take: FG players who continuously make excuses for JP devs not implementing rollback netcode are bigger bitches than the "FGC snowflakes" they make fun of. At this point there should not be any other excuse for a dev team to implement rollback other than "we don't to" because there are multiple games that invalidate their excuses. Especially the people who say "the future of fighting games isn't so clear right now"...and still don't see that rollback netcode could broaden the playerbase of a game. Yes I am talking about AnimeIlluminati.
You know what's make a fighting game dope to new players. Wacky characters, wiafus, and helpful training modes.( I'm not bringing up Rollback because i don't think i don't think you need to throw FGC bible quotes at you. You know what's poppin')
Is it a hot take that I think every game for a genre should have the same standards of there main menus? I’m extremely tired of certain very obvious good options and settings just not being in certain games. Like instant rematching or free button mapping on other genres.
7:32 Whenever someone has criticism of fighting games as a genre, theres inevitably a ton of reactions saying this exact thing. Or variations like "looks like someone doesnt know how to throw a fireball" or "I bet he only plays smash/[other game perceived as casual]." You don't have to agree with them (I sure don't), but this kind of gatekeeping is a bummer.
That isn't gatekeeping, it's an observation of someone saying something that gives away their lack of knowledge about a topic. "Real fighting game players don't play Smash", would be gatekeeping. He might not even be right, but it still isn't gatekeeping. Also gatekeeping is WAY overused these days. Anytime you question someones legitimacy on a topic people cry gatekeeping. Not everyone's opinion equally valued, that is just reality. It's a reality that people like to deny. You have a right to have an opinion and no one can say that you are wrong in your preferences, but if you don't have qualifications to match your claims then your opinion is only valid for you, and not to be taken too seriously. For example, I don't like metal, but I haven't listened to a ton of metal so I would never say "metal is shitty music" because I have not really listened to enough to make that judgment. My preference is valid, I don't like it. But that doesn't mean I can say "it's shit because X Y and Z" and have that opinion taken seriously.
@@charliericker274 "but if you don't have qualifications to match your claims then your opinion is only valid for you, and not to be taken too seriously." People will make those comments without actually checking the qualifications of the person making those statements (hence the "I bet"). I don't really expect anything better from random youtube or twitter comments, but I do from Sajam.
@@OffensiveWombat I have to disagree on this, more often than not people complaining about fighting games, saying shit like command inputs are too hard, or Training Mode this or that. They are usually the people that would immediately drop any game whatsoever at the slightest sign of difficulty
When I see a review of a fighting game, I never see "This game is amazing because it's so simple". Except maybe Dive Kick. But no one at the roundtable is going to out-simple Dive Kick, so they should aim their efforts elsewhere.
Fighting Game Confession: my first ever fighting game main character was Potemkin because he did pretty good damage with 5H and his command throw and I refused to learn combos. Now I'm kind of known for big, slow characters in my friend group and I'm finding it hard to branch out.
deadass, all i do in training mode is learn a bnb for both midscreen and corner, and im good to go. everything else is just trying and seeing what works in practical matches. shit, you can get far just mashing buttons. played Rev 2 with a homie, and i had no fucking idea what ANYTHING was. and i still went pretty even with her. granted, she doesn't play the game seriously and is uber casual, but still. day one Sol/Pot had her on the run lmao. word to the wise, just mash buttons.
i’m in the process of working on my street fighter 5 game but man i cannot pick a character 😂 once I learn how to do something i go and try to apply it to another. for instance when I first learned how to input DP and the half circles i was all over the place
Hot take: ALL MODERN FIGHTING GAMES NEED GOOD PROPER TUTORIAL MODES. You don't get a pass just cause you're a game from a legacy developer that has deep pockets and easier brand recognition. If a non-mainstream dev like ArcSys can make GGXrd have one of the best tutorials in all of modern fighting games, so can Capcom and Bandai Namco.
I feel like NRS has really hit the mark on what a training mode should be. MK11's training mode is god tier, and their tutorials are pretty in-depth as well.
I literally started street fighter today, (FG noob) learned 2 3-hit punish combos on Laura and I've so far won 5 out of the 7 matches I play. I just use those to learn. Plan to get those down perfect then add more. Honestly don't see why I was scared of click find match at the start.
It's because of scrubs sspreading the Idea that Fighting games are too inaccessible for new players. Fighting games are open to everyone, however it's a game that rewards people who have an inquisite nature towards their own losses and success. Many people lose and don't ask themselves why that happened, they just get pissed and leave.
@@ItsJustAJVJ If you played the GGStrive online beta you really wouldnt be saying that. Honestly I cant even say it looks good as a whole, only because the UI is part of the visuals
@@dacrusathang9732 Well the UI is subject to change, they addressed that in their press release or their reply to feedback they received from the beta, as well as other concerns regarding certain combos & the overall online lobby UI & Netcode. I only say they are trying to push the genre toward because they are doing just that- trying. They are trying to reinvent their game and breathe life into the series while trying to evolve mechanics of the series. And yes it is a trial & error thing but you can't say they aren't trying to keep the genre moving forward. I mean it's even in the name of the game: "STRIVE." They are striving towards something new and hopefully better. Nevertheless, I get the apprehension after the beta. Fafnir into fafnir into fafnir doesn't seem like a step in the right direction.
I definitely don't think people should HAVE to go into training mode. What got me to learn KI was playing with a friend while we mashed buttons w/ auto combos on. However, I absolutely hate not knowing my character's moves so i inevitably spend 3 hours in training mode before playing online
While very different form a traditional fighting game I wish the new Gundam Vs game had ranked locked until people completed the first set of missions available. I’ve seen too many people just queue for ranked shuffle and not no how to actually play. Makes it really annoying when you have to deal with the chance you could get some new player that likely has a terrible connection and no clue what he’s doing play on your team.
i go to training mode for fun, i dont play vergil in umvc3 but i recently reinstalled it and have been practicing sword loops to see how many reps i can do just for lols
They should at least not cost money to use in training mode. Also, games should launch with a COMPLETE ROSTER and have the later dlc add to that, NOT fill it.
@@094176 That's never been the sole incentive for anything other than passion projects. I'm sure most devs are happy to make their game better and give it further support but the reality is that gratification doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table, and (more importantly to the company) it doesn't pull in profit to hand out freebies unless it's a part of the business model.
I think you should start in training mode *ONLY* to learn a very basic combo that ends in a knockdown (even if it's like 2-3 hits lol), memorize a handful of useful looking moves, have a basic understanding of your character's unique mechanic (if they have one) and go online. Then again, I'm someone who likes spending up to a month in practice mode only to triple perfect everyone with no losses so I can quickly get to the 'matchup knowledge' barrier, so I can strictly focus on gaining experience over trying to better my combo/mixup game,
Paid dlc characters is a terrible terrible idea. When you start up a fighting game the fact of the matter is that you're only going to play maybe three characters in the cast. Too many will either be too difficult, have combos you can't do, or have a design you dislike. With dlc characters you're paying to potentially maybe have one character you might like but will most likely not enjoy and feel obliged to use them because you paid five quid for them. Make colours, stages or even music dlc, whatever, but characters should always be free.
I replied to this elsewhere. Mine was that I hated when ST came out and what it did to what WW established. I still do lol, though I am not as adamant about it. I can even elaborate it in a pretty rational way.
@@charliericker274 super turbo and world warrior? If we're talking about fighting games, I wouldn't expect people to confuse sf with science fiction or gg with good game lol
i mained akira for the whole weekend i rented rival schools. i didn't know she was a girl until the last day when i beat the arcade mode. she has a helmet. the other thing i remember is there was an odd back rub mode where the school nurse would make your controller shake.
Late to the party but here’s my hot take; single player content is extremely important in fighting games and is why I only played arena fighters until mk9 came out.
Weatherman?? Nobody wants to hear your gloomy-ass forecast, Steven Storms. They want BRIGHT NEWS for their weekend from me, Sunshine Samuel! And folks, we’ve got two hot-diggity days ah-comin’ RIGHT UP.
My hot take: Bots should be better. I know I could go online and find people at or slightly above my skill level, but sometimes I don't want to have to deal with finding a person to train with
The problem with the bots is they don't play like people, they don't learn or adapt and they can't recognize patterns like people can. People are really good at pattern recognition in subtle ways. I mean, a computer could be programmed to do so, but devs choose not to, either it is too hard or they just don't want to, IDK.
I want bots to be more customisable. Feels like most fighting games only have bots that stand around doing nothing or blow you up instantly with some giant pro-tier combos while input reading all your shit. I want to fight a bot that challenges me in neutral and punishes really bad moves in neutral without just smoking me.
That is a good take, until you play SNK vs Capcom Chaos and Super Street Fighter II Turbo where it's bot simply adapt themselves to your inputs far too well. They can punish you for simply releasing the back button. In some cases they find a way to punish your jabs, your freaking jabs, the most positive and generally safe attacks in most games.
Every single game needs Rematch as fast as Akatsuki Blitzkampf even with having to go to character select screen on rematch its still faster than most games to rematch
Here's my hot take for the last few years of fgs. Zoning and grappler characters should be stronger. For good examples, see Nu-13 in vanilla CF, and Fastiva in GBFVS.
Lmao about forgetting. Bro its difficult for me to remember . My main characters move set lmao.. I don't understand how punk, Jwong etc can remember multiple characters move set and switch at will.
hot take: info/communication for fighting games are laughtable at best, coming from dota2 and csgo perspective, and they are trash on that TOO! the confession that will make my FGC card revoke is that Dbfz is already my favorite fighting game of all times....
Sajam, if all someone needs to actually start playing a fighting game is a poke, an anti-air, and a (simple) combo, then any tutorial that doesn't have those things in the first ten lessons, is a bad tutorial. That seems like a suitably hot take for the thread.
Nah, they need the first ten lessons to cover moving, jumping, attacking, blocking, inputting special moves, doing combos, doing more combos, and doing more combos. The things that everyone already knows and then combos, combos, combos.... /s
Take the character tutorials in BB, they usually did that. They taught you general pokes, simple combos, mentioned the anti-air buttons and told you some combos. Same with UNICLR with how the tutorials have a game-plan part where it teaches you what to do in different situations, and what to do say on offence and how to approach.
Hot Take: Single-player content should be the priority in modern fighting games. PvP will take care of itself (as long as the netcode is solid). I should be able to play a fighting game for hundreds of hours and never need to play against other players (on or offline) to feel I am enjoying the game and getting my money's worth. This means much more than just arcade mode and story mode, but other game modes that use fighting game format in fun and interesting ways, and even modes that aren't in fighting game format at all. Edit to add: And if and when I do play against another player, I will feel that playing the single-player game modes have still helped me learn how to play against an actual player, meaning not just that I will know combos, but that I will know how to punish, how to anti-air, what my good pokes are, how to defend, etc.
look at any fighting game's achievement/trophy list, compare the amount of people who got the "beat the story mode" achievement (which could take several hours to do) with the amount of people who got the "play one online player match" achievement (which takes less than 5 minutes). A not insignificant percentage of the people who buy fighting games do not even touch the online components. A modern fighting game cannot expect to be successful with an audience outside of the hardcore FGC without a significant amount of single player content.
Ya I run into too many people at locals sitting in training mode learning frame data…I dont give two shits, I bought FEXL opened training mode “ok what’s my moves...Ok I’m done, time to hit online”
I can't wait to see the day when there's a fighting game where as soon as you get past the Main Menu, the only options are "Quick Match" and "Learn the Basics", where completing the basic tutorial immediately launches you into a quick match with someone else, and when 90% of the players lose their first match, a challenge notification pops up titled "Get Over Yourself, Loser" that says "Lose 1/1000 matches", and has some really cool reward or token to get a good cosmetic or something, And only AFTER that does the full training mode, and other game modes unlock.
I am someone that spends almost all of their time in training mode because I just think its fun to try to optimize combos and setups, but I am also someone who hates when a game "requires" you to use training mode to learn how to deal with certain options. All games do that to some extent, but some games definitely seem to do this more than others and some games do a lot more to communicate why you got hit (exclamation mark symbols in anime games, fire/electricity VFX in SC6). I imagine a lot of people that complain about being required to use training mode just wish that solutions to problems in the match were communicated in the match. Waiting for the match to end so that I can go figure out why I was getting hit feels bad.
People don’t like fighting games. Ruining them for people who do like them isn’t going to bring in new players because new players don’t like fighting games. If they did, they would just play them. No other genre is so focused on new players while having so few of them.
i guess if this comment section's just become the hot take area people have GOT to stop hammering on the goku "oh i'll take every single loss in stride and always learn something and every issue is just another fun obstacle to overcome!" mindset so hard. it's ok to be mad at a loss. it's ok to think something's ass. people act like you need this mindset to play and improve at fighting games but i've never met someone who's actually like this. even good players call things bullshit.
Fighting games aren't an amusement park! No "Your combo has to be this long/do this much damage!" Battle for the Grid: Welcome to the grid! Can you do touch of death combos? If not, please play something else.
I think Sajam is accurate about the training mode boogeyman, but I think the key piece he is assuming is that people have fun trying to figure out problems. The biggest issue with the boogeyman is that there is some degree of truth to it; more time in the lab produces better results in winning. Someone with more familiarity in a game will most likely be the better fighter at the end of the day. On a deeper level, more time in the lab produces more fun moments in matches that aren't just winning. For someone who doesn't lab, in the example of melty, the fact that you can't airblock grounded normals might really tick them off. If it happens repeatedly throughout even a few matches, some people just won't have the time to even figure out that it's an issue before they curse the game and write it off. The training mode issue I think is tied more to the fact that getting beat down isn't fun, and the more you want to excel, the more you even want to understand, is tied to dedicating time in a mode that isn't as fun as playing online, BUT without training mode some people can have an incredibly horrid time online. Tekken and Marvel succeed on a casual level because moment to moment mid match you can do fun shit without having to dedicate a bunch of time to acquiring game knowledge, Tekken matches in particular I feel like have more tangible rewards for mashing. As opposed to a GG/Melty/etc. IMO For those you need a solid couple of hours in a mode (which might not be appealing), to get similar joy and effectiveness in other games.
Mm idk about that. I just started playing gg this past month. I primarily played mk, mvc, and SF before. GG had to be the easiest fighter I’ve ever picked up besides mvc2. It’s also the funnest ive played in quite some time. Idk why ppl think GG is so hard. The Gatling system makes most combos super easy (besides the longer more technical ones) and the timings are much more lax compared to sf. My first night playing, I had a 20 game win streak by the end of my play session. That was against at least 8 different opponents who entered/exited the lobby. More fighting games should play like arcsys games, this coming from someone who just started playing arcsys games. There is so much more freedom in what you can do, in an age where all fighters are becoming much more limiting *cough* mk11 and sfv *cough* . That’s just my opinion though.
Sabnova3415 you should Atleast take into account your own biases in this. The people my comment are talking about are far from those with your background or knowledge of fighting games. The people I’m talking about don’t even know about creative limitations in sfv and shit.
The problem isn't training mode, it's the people that are too lazy to put effort into getting good that are the real problem. Nobody is forcing them to stay or to get good and training mode isn't either. Tbh, it's way more fun to play somebody at your level than just trying to go competitive via training mode (if you think about it casually). I think that's the casuals definition of fun and if they have that mentality, than even more casuals would be able to appreciate harder games
I think fighting games should drastically change the definition of "neutral". No more waiting till someone gets hit by a puff of wind and then watching a highlight reel.
