Fighting Games Are Not Inherently Harder to Learn Than Other Competitive Games 

"I landed my BS setup once that I practiced for like 7 hours, that whole L was worth it"

I got a perfect on my cousin in Tekken (He's the same age as me)

It's about the little victories, when you can't get the big one. My sisters and I do this with rhythm games. Do bad in the song? At least I hit the last note.

@@Boyzby if you don't win we get permission to trash talk each other and loser can't say anything back Until we both yell at each other we stop playing then (it was 2AM don't blame me for getting mad!)

honestly getting at least one hit on someone who feels like hes just steamrolling you or even just a knockdown feels so good

In every single game

The funniest part is they likely never played in that type of environment (no lag, very strong coordination) so they'd end up getting dumpsterred

@@QuantemDeconstructor they might get dumpstered, but not me. I’m better than them.

@@harrylane4 lmao

It's not always malicious. Spectators can see what's happening much much better than the ones currently playing, who'll have to worry about a ton of other things

I've had the same issue, now I just get frustrated because I know more stuff than I can actually make use of at my level.

Yeah I feel like that should be one of the first things a beginner should learn. Instead of mashing buttons, block to get a read on your opponent, then slowly start to get used to punishing their attacks, and then slowly build on what you can do. Hell, I've been playing Tekken 7 for almost a year now and I only just started getting used to understanding neutral, as in 'okay we're this far apart, what attack can reach them without putting me in danger?' like sure I know how to cause counter-hit sure I know how to punish, but what about when I'm far away from my opponent, what can I do from far away or to get closer? I'm still learning. There is absolutely no need to force all of the information in fighting games in one go, take the time to breathe.

You know its really funny. Back when it was just arcades, there was no frame data, no discord tech. You were lucky to even see "top player" footage. Even GameFAQs didn't really have "the best" information. You know what we did have? Lots and lots of quarters and tokens.

@@decksteroussnail And, of course, an average player back then is just as good as an average player is now?

@@decksteroussnail we did not have arcades where I'm from And still even today fighting games are not that popular in my country

I mean “I lost but I got the anti-air” or “that difficult combo” so those goals can be applied to FG’s but everything else it’s true

@@raychangalarza179 That's a personal goal that you set for yourself, not quite the same thing. If it has the same effect as a sidequest for you then great, but fighting games shouldn't shouldn't rely on players wanting to do cool stuff even when they lose.

@@angryskeleton5676 I mean, why not?

@@EnderTitan because it assumes that every player will just make goals besides winning which just isn't going to happen.

@@angryskeleton5676 It also assumes they're aware of those smaller goals and why they're important. If you don't play fighting games than you don't realize you made a couple good moves or how you spaced well or landed a sick anti-air all you know is that you loss and you're bad.And being confused while constantly getting kicked into the dirt isn't a fun learning process for most people.

Honestly, I think most people who say that, and aren't already playing fighting games, aren't looking to actually be good in a fighting game.

The perception exists in part because the community likes it and plays it up, I think.

@@Venomousse the FGC adores driving people away and clowning on other games for being "too easy" or "for scrubs. Many FGC members are super possessive of their niche genre and don't want any noobs. Keep l in mind I said many members, not all. Most larger FGC figureheads are very open to new players and willing to teach others. Some of those figureheads draw heat from the FGC for being open to new players.

@@jreut09 I only started playing FGs seriously in 2018 and I found the community very welcoming as long as you're humble going in. People can have a bit of a chip on their shoulder regarding game difficulty but that's understandable and part of most competetive communities I think. Asking questions and taking criticism without making excuses is all I've needed to do to get tips and help.

It's the fucking reality it the genre and pretending otherwise is keeping it niche

im the same way with my friends. i think they'd rather just play the game instead of spending time trying to learn them. i think the main reason for this is because nowadays you can just pick up and play most games, but for fighting games you have to spend the extra time so that you can even do specials. most casuals dont like that, so they give up really fast.

Fighting games feel more personal that's why.

@@ymsmash9526 See I don't agree with you and I think I know why I agree with this video. Most people have never actually spent time to actually get good at a shooter or moba. When I play csgo I try to teach my friends smoke spots and spray pattern but they are just content playing the game and never improving. I play league and I try to teach more advanced tactics like freezing waves and how go manipulate the minions to your advantage but they don't really pay attention. That's why you see most people stay hardstuck at a certain rank for many games but see people like dyrus pick up a new game and get good. The key is to actually put effort into improving and that's something that's not specific to just fighting games.

@@GrimReaper1526 100% agree with this as my friends are content with not learning to play games and just want to play. It's up to a person's personality on whether they enjoy pick up and play games or the grind of research and learning the ins and outs of competitive games. In a way it's like anime. Some people just watch the seasonal 13 episode animes and others will invest time into the 100+ (or 800+ looking at you One Piece) animes.

Burpinator we at 900+ now 😎 lol. I actually started one piece last July. Finally got up to the reverie, just before wano. Seemed daunting at first but it was worth it. And then I have my friends who won’t watch an anime past 30 episodes, and won’t play a fighting game longer than 2-3 weeks before quitting. Like you said, different personalities. Some people like to challenge themselves and some don’t.

Maybe he's missing out on some shortcuts. It took me years to realise what the shortcut to a DP motion actually was and how to do it.

Those two might be different groups of people.

This is part of why I don't like people that smurf just to smurf

And then when they lose in lane they complain that there are too many smurfs to play in the low ranks. lmao

THIS, I've been in the exact same situation twice (UNIST and GG) where the only players I get matched with are way better than I am, and I end getting clobbered without being able to do anything. or in the case of the latter game (GG) I can't even find anyone to play with online. I would imagine even the bigger fighting games (Tekken or SFV) would have times where online at the beginner ranks is completely empty, we have to keep in mind that theee isn't a constant flow of new players coming into FGs. and this isn't taking into account how shit most FG netcode is.

@@naseralsalem236 I think if you're a beginner in a fighting game, especially if you're fighting better players and have the mindset to learn, then you'd have to change your thinking from playing to win to playing to learn. When I was getting into unist vs way better people, I would accept that I'm probably not going to win and legit block most of the match and see what pieces of info I can get. From some game mechanic I'm using improperly like green shielding or guard thrust, to picking up on habits the better player showed in the matches. Then when I fight again, I do way better than I did in the beginning.

@@nicklez01 I see where you're coming from. but alot of the time the players are wayyyy out of my league that I just get rushed down, especially when they play characters I am unfamilar with (Hilda, Vat and Seth are probably my worst MU as a player), the game kinda without me know where to block. I agree with your approach and do it alot of times, but it can be useless when you're just starting and they probably won some regionals and they come at you as if you're a good player (not saying they shouldn't).

My advice to everyone in this situation is to start joining Discords. There are tons of people in the same situation you are -- interest in Guilty Gear for new players is pretty high right now. It sucks that Xrd can't just matchmake you, but there are ways that you can find each other yourselves.

*Has flashback to last month of the 45 min session (and 60 games) of getting gaped by a guy with 9,400 wins in BBTAG to my 5 wins (only one of which was from him and that was due to him using a brand-new, never before used team). I didn't even want to look at the game for two days.

If you play league against a good player you won't be able to push up to the minion wave after he gets a lead and eventually you will just die Everytime he sees you for 40 min straight. Trust me when I say that getting beat in other games is far worse that the few second you lose in a fighting game. Only difference is people will blame their team in other games but in solo games people blame the game.

@@GrimReaper1526 I play Dota and used to play Starcraft and have never felt an hour of those games to be half as exhausting as 25 minutes of bad UNIST matches.

@@GrimReaper1526 There's just less consequence to your actions, if you die in a team deathmatch of some shooter it decides the match just as rarely as doing something awesome. When sajam says to enjoy doing something small correctly in a fighting game, it can sometimes be hard because it's immediately overwritten by 'did I win or lose that round/match'. Fighting games are extremely condensed activities, the entire first to 2 can be over in two minutes.

@@GrimReaper1526 usually when that happens you can learn to run away from that player really quick and have friends to help take them out, or move somewhere that it is safer to farm. Unless you're playing Smash, you can't run from your opponent in a fighting game.

"How can I practice my combo strings in a match if I'm spending all my time stunlocked in a touch of death combo?" I've thought this myself more than once.

Those segways are pretty sick... But nearly as sick as Justin Seymour coming in hot with the twitch prime sub! Appreciate ya, buddy.

@@justsomeguy727 you missed a "not" :d

Yeah. You’re right But I tell you what I’m NOT missing HighLanderPony hitting us up with a new sub!

@@letmeshowumypkmn sheet dawg!

@@SeaJay4444 Just like i'm "segue"-ing into thanking WeedGoku69 for the 420 months!

But after you have some experience with fighting games, you can apply that knowledge to every other fighting game you play. Even if its as simple as understanding good neutral tactics like footsies or even learning frame data to decide the best moves for your style of gameplay. Its not like you start out from 0 every time you pick up a new fighting game.

@@itraynell exactly your first fighting is likely the hardest. I'm just trying to get over the hump

That is 50% true. Yes, In principle you can use the higher level techniques like bait and punish, good neutral, good oki tech, in every “Fighting Game”. But the “MECHANICS” you will be using are very very different across fighting games. By that I mean (and back me up here FGC community members) Street Fighter is not the same game/mechanics as Tekken or Marvel Vs Capcom or SMASH or Mortal Kombat or Ark Systems games. While almost every FPS is the same game with a different skin. (Fort-Nite however is the Exception in my opinion, their is building) Same with MOBAs. However, you will have too re-train your muscle memory much more in fighting games then in any other game. (And also suffer more). That’s why I don’t agree with this video. Fighting Games are the hardest.

@@Ozark5e ????? A team shooter like CS:GO is going to play completely differently from a team shooter like Overwatch, which also might play differently from Halo or CoD. There are plenty of mechanics to differentiate each of those games, like abilities, time to kill, types of guns, etc. a single mechanic (turn rate) makes playing a carry in DotA worlds apart from playing a carry in LoL. Hell, you need to relearn the jungle every single year in just League alone, and DotA's jungle is completely different from that as well. A game like HotS throws the item building part of MOBAs out the window and replaces it with talents as well as changing the mechanics of last hitting and team objectives. I (and Sajam) are not saying that differences in fighting games don't exist, but I am saying that similar differences exist in other genres as well. If you're going to criticize each fighting game for having different mechanics, you need to apply that same criticism to other genres too.

Sibai I acknowledge that you are right if we look at it the way you are looking at it. I acknowledge that their are definitive differences if you go specific or granular, into not only the mechanics but also the gameplay experiences between players playing Overwatch Vs Halo. Or the experiences between playing a carry in one MOBA vs’s in another. But (Concerning FPS’s) those are only really stylistic differences (or different paint jobs + a polish) between what is essentially a point and click game coupled with different abilities, and different movement options. The reason why FPS’s are popular in the first place is that the basic understanding of what is the only skill you need to get started (not to get good or even master, just to get started) is accuracy. You could argue it’s accuracy and movement that are the fundamentals, regardless the way any numbskull wins is by matching the target reticle to the enemy and firing first and best. In fighting games (Excluding Smash which is amazing) there can sometimes be between 2-6 buttons you would need to hit (usually in a pattern that you have to learn) and you hit them till they KO. Because hitting them with a button seems so simple, fighting game developers have to add complexity after effing complexity to make their games different from other fighting games. FPS’s are essentially the same mechanics requiring little memorization and more just intuitive optimization. They allow players to intuitively know the game versus memorizing a manual of options. The only fighting game to break this mold is SMASH. SMASH allows you very few options and is designed to be as noobie friendly ( AKA Nintendoey) as possible. This is the games MO, allow few options and a lot of easy tactics to make a party 🎉 fighting game that everybody loves. (Effing Brilliant) It is a popular opinion (as far as I know), that everyone feels they are semi decent at shooters. They can pick them up and the amount of negative feedback a shooter will give you on your skill level only truly becomes more apparent in the higher tiers. This is compounded by the fact that you are playing team games vs 1v1 games. The gaps between fighting game players are however crystal clear. Pain is part of the learning process in fighting games. If you doubt what I’m saying look at how these games are marketed, and who the real fans of these games are. Fans of FPS like the aspect that you can if your lucky get results sometimes by just being in the right place and right time (they will deny this but the randomness of this aspect allows more fairness, giving the game an unknown element not related to skill). They hate when some noob gets a lucky shot off at them when it’s reversed. FPS’s are marketed to all players and have become more popular. Staples such as Fortnight are leading the charge (actually it’s probably passed the torch to Warzone but I still give Fortnight credit). Fighting game fans know that almost all mistakes they make are due to a lack of skill not luck. They are pushed to the limit with the games multiple complex systems and at the same time reading an opponent who is doing the same. Lastly (in my opinion) Each fighting game has to try harder to be different and still be a fighting game. FPS’s OR third person shooters don’t really try to be that different. (Not on the same level IMO)

Unironically, you're not actually wrong aha. At school you typically only get taught how to regurgitate information which isn't the most useful skill as opposed to having teachers break down various learning methods so that all kinds of people can figure out something that works for them.

Add it to the list

Yeah, and Smash had an easier time selling because it resembled other platformers like Kirby. That level of comfortable familiarity is rare in the fighting game genre. Familiarity is comfortable. Street Fighter and MK are familiar franchises, Tekken's presentation of close combat is familiar, and said series' semi-realistic art style is familiar. Aside from MK's ultraviolence, a week of casually experiencing the singleplayer as one or more cool characters, and a night or two of brining the game out to play with friends, that's all the gaming public at large wants out of a fighting game. The genre needs to figure out new hooks to draw people into the cycle of competition and improvement like other genres have, otherwise it'll never really make it big.

@@RougeMephilesClone lol nice one people who play smash for the first time literally kill themselves because they have trouble with the movement. Makes it hard for me to play with someone who is new because I feel like I have to play extremely basic to make sure my friend has a good time.

@@GrimReaper1526 Literally how i think my friend feels and I feel bad sometimes. But, Ive gotten better and matches are 40/60 now.

spot on

Oh I'm so glad I found someone in the comments saying this.

Different storkes, I'd say. I think the longer time-investment in MOBAs is actually the worst part about them as a beginner. While alot of that downtime let's you think things over, it also let's you wallow in your failure for so much longer. Losing in a MOBA is a commitment. When a game of League of Legends starts going south, I'll usually have figured that out by the first 15 minutes. The next 20-30 minutes of the game is thus spent torturously waiting for it to be done and over with already. All the while, you are put into 0-sum games, where you are literally unable to win because your opponent is fed, therefore statistically superior to you, you are making the game less fun for the rest of your party who now have to clean up after your feeding and there is no reset back to neutral, so to get another chance at starting fresh, you have to wait until it's done. By the 25th minute, all the thinking I'll be doing during that is whether I prefer the taste of cyanide or lead. If you're bad at fighting games, you get sandbagged for at most 2 minutes and it's done. You're off to the next challenge. Even within a set, the round usually starts at neutral, so you immediately get a chance to fix your situation from an even footing instead of trying to win an uphill battle against someone who is now in a better position to keep winning from your past failure.

@@AlluMan96 There's also that angle, yes.

Fighting games really do struggle to make people overcome the anxiety to actually play as a beginner

Good luck dude, general advice for the lower ranks: be patient, block and punish random stuff, also abuse meaties because your opponents probably won't block on their wakeup!

You may very well get destroyed. This is normal. I can't stress how much that getting destroyed and I mean DESTROYED when you first start going online is normal. We ALL went through it. Do.Not.Give.Up. In order to give out beatings you must first get beat up.

Good shit and good luck bro!! Remember, if you're losing you're also learning

RTSes mirror fighting games in being hard to learn, but it depends on what RTS you're talking about. Blizz RTSes are more like fighting games than actual strategy games. There's a reason both RTSes and FGs are either dieing or incredibly niche genres.

Idt the base casual mk players are at a higher level doing a string in mk is like doing a Gatling in Xrd or one hit confirm into a special in sf.

That's close to how I defined fun, actually: enjoying the game even when losing. At least before you start winning more, then it can overlap with winning or improving.

On the other hand I really don't think it's any mentally easier to get blamed by your teammates for ruining their game, if anything it's worse than just losing a set to a better player in FGs imo

Lorvi yeah that sucks too haha, but most of the time the loss won't be due to one person only, most of the time several mistakes are made by every teammate and even if it was clearly one person's fault, that person can debate and make excuses, you don't even get a chance to do that on FG. You know you fucked up, you and only you

@@yo51104 wht kind of player are you? losing is losing. The winnera are going to say : "see those losers" they won t give a shit to who do what. second pont there is nother thing that matter. if you are good and you play with bad player you will lose that disturnbing and that for me is the biggest point with team based game. this is the other side of the medal that you don t see in FG. imagine that for Daigo to win, infexious and all the beast team have to win? It will bee much more harder to win any tounney. And I see many players crying that "I should be reward for my work, not punish for the bad work of other" So what you see as an ease has in fact a dark side and people inside the FGC don t see that side.

@@Venomousse Low levels in MOBAs still basically have no communication and everyone's solo queueing. You rarely get blamed that much, and even if you do you tune it out until you know enough about the game to realize when you fucked up.

domingoIST and mugen made a really good point here, just to be clear I don't think FG are actually harder they are just perceived as harder I think. While having to rely on others to cooperate in order to win can be very stressful and lead to a lot of salt, I think most beginners won't have that in mind as they are just familiarizing themselves with the game and they don't know what the other people are supposed to do on top of loosing maybe feels a little more immediate in FG when you are new

Xrd Rev2 Tutorial is one of the best out there. They make them like a quicktime event where they don't go "Okay do this once then move on". They have you do it over and over to get that repetition and throw some mixups as well.

I'd argue that team-based games make for a lot more pressure and anxiety than a fighting game because the experience and disposition of your entire team can rely a lot on how well you perform rather than just your own. Your opponent in a fighting game isn't going to start screaming at you because you're just getting destroyed but your teammate in CSGO or Dota might. You can also just leave and find another opponent or take a break if somebody is destroying you and taunting you while in a moba or shooter you're basically stuck getting bodied and trying to make yourself useful to your team for upwards of an hour. Most fighting games don't even have voice chat and you don't suffer at all for just muting it if they do while you might struggle to coordinate with your team or miss out on important information if you mute somebody giving you shit in a team-based game. You will also run into situations in games like CS where you are just head to head against a single person except that four other people are watching everything you do and are relying on you to win. From personal experience, the worst experience I ever had with another player in Tekken was somebody ki-charging on me over and over. The worst experience I ever had with another player in CSGO was somebody literally screaming at the entire team because we lost a few rounds, despite us still being in the lead, until the entire team started throwing.

@@Cadaurny I agree Im both a toxic and calm player in League of Legends.

Now this is an excellent response.

I think this response needs WAYYYY more attention than it gets, and i would love to know more people's opinion on it. I completely agree with you. Fighting games are not only unintuitive, with a LOT of information that you need to know if you re going to compete at your personal best, BUT they also have the execution barrier, where you have to grind for hours , to learn combos, blocking, etc, etc , and that;s just for HANDFUL of characters, not even the entire roster. You can simplify inputs to the point Smash Brothers does, and still the important things that should matter in order to win (reads, whiff punishing,baits, etc etc you know, all the mind-games) are still going to be there and important. I don't midn execution-heavy fighting games and remembering all that info, per se. What i DO mind, is that the aforementioned is still the standard for the genre , for no apparent reason, and there's literally about 5 (or maybe less) modern fighting games that don't have these archaic design shortcomings (DBFZ i would put somewhere in the middle, whereas SSBU is the ideal in that aspect).

@@jacebeleren1703 I would say that execution is the least difficult aspect in fighting games in general and that the macro aspect is what puts most people off. I've thought about it since making that post and came to realize that "frames" are the main obstacle that deters players regardless of their backround. Framedata is an essential mechanic in fighting games, more so then any other genre i know of. The key reason being that in fighting games if i block or get hit by something, the game automatically puts me in "stunned" state for an ex amount of frames. (Frame advantage and disadvantage) Same goes if i execute a move myself. There is no other genre ( i know of) that operates in this way, for example in League if i get hit by an auto attack i can still do whatever i want during or after without the game putting me in some staggered state, same goes for fps. Ofcourse stuns exist, but they are usually few and very obvious. You can cancel your "Starting Frames" in fgs but not your active nor recovery Frames (You can only lower the last in some games/some moves through various techniques/complex inputs) if you want, an exeception rarther then a rule. In Fighting games every hit basically operates as a "Stun" locking you or your opponent. Full commitment on everything. Some people figure this out as they button mash the concept of "Taking turns" but the truth is that most people don't. Now some games offer visual indicators for when you're at minus frames but most games don't, this is the first big hurdle... that's why i can beat every begginer/intermediate player by just knowing some frames. Now add an arsenal of moves on top of that, with alot of characters and Space and you have a barrage of possibilites that you have to think about. Frames (F)= Time. Space (S)= Space. There are three "sub types" of Frames aswell... Starting Frames (SF) Active Frames (AF) Recovery Frames (RF) Both (S) and (F) are always playing a major role in your decision making and what's actually happening in the game. Mobas have (S) and (F), but (SF) and (RF) can be cancelled at any given time usually, thus framedata can mostly be ignored if not completely. Wherever there is (F) (SF,AF,RF) to think about aswell it's usually so negilable that you don't have to think about it for most scenarios since you can't effect it in any way that would make a real diffrence. (Unless we speak of Very high level play) FPS games have (S) but no real (F) to think about, meaning that you can shoot and move around however you want without any limitations. Ofcourse a weapons rate of fire could be categorized as (F) and not all fps are the same, but generally speaking. That's it. So if fighting games could better visually show the frames and more so universalize alot of it, then that would help alot of newcomers. (So instead of moves having incremental frame diffrences "1,2,3,4,5" etc etc, just divide it into 3 "types", +-1, +-5, +-10. Low +-, medium +- and heavy +- with N neutral aswell. This would dramatically lower the difficulty and players wouldn't have to memorize what's what, it would allow them to see the move once and know exactly what it is in real time and adapt/respond in real time. (So no labbing frames)... Learn as you play. That's if you really want to make things easier in a way that truly matters for beginners. We could ofcourse say "Just play and don't worry about frames", but reality is whether you know about frames or not they will ALWAYS matter since they effectively determine what goes and what doesn't, and if you beat someone and they don't understand the invisible hand that is frames then they effectively have no idea WHY they lost, same way you have no idea WHY you won... This strips the player of any real sense of controll that they could have/feel to have, which is THE key component of frustration. (There are studies around this). So the most likely outcome is that people will quit since they'll get super tilted, even if you tell them to "Just play and not worry about frames". Some will stay, but most won't. Nobody will play if they can't even understand the reason move x beat move y everytime and all the changing conditions that effect it. Either way, just my two cents. I accidentaly wrote an essay, sorry. :/

in the actual arcade scene that fighting games came from in the 90s, a lot of information gossip happened in person. the culture was so different and I think it doesn't translate well to the MOBA or FPS.

Yeah, I'm pretty new to fighting games myself and while it's been a real challenge, I do love them.

@@amarntsitran3406 That's how I start every FG I try to get into. Then about 20 hours later with most of the "doable" singleplayer stuff completed, I just lose interest. :x I'm at a point where I don't even want to "waste" money on them any more.

@@HighLanderPonyYT Aha I hear you. I used to be like that too. I remember I got DBFZ on launch and had that same feeling. Now I'm all in and even got DBFZ back. Gogeta hype is real rn

@@amarntsitran3406 Cool, godspeed!

I was like that too.

You'll just be clicking on a monster and buying random items and for the shooter not all of them offer vehicle combat. Even if u can't land a single hit u can block and u can improve that. Yes it's boring but I think it's as stimulating as hitting a monster in Leugue for 3 mins getting killed by a man in the bushes and the looking at a Bible of items just clicking random shit and then running back to do it again

Oh wait this vid is 2 years old

Can relate, the mission list in Rev 2 is daunting.

As someone who doesn't play fighting games I was intrigued by Guilty Gear xrd rev just because I heard it had a great tutorial and I love the art style. However, what you explained is exactly why I couldn't continue playing it. In my opinion I don't think fighting games should list out all the combos you can do right away and just let players play the game with just the button inputs explained. Possibly have those combos be added to a list as a player inputs them, so they get that good feeling like they actually accomplished something. Maybe Riot games new fighting game will bring some other improvements to the genre so that the learning curve feels more reasonable without letting down the current fighting game community.

@@chieferik7964 unlcking more totorials as you level up through playing games sounds like an amazing progression system for fighting games

Have you ever played a fighting game as consistently as you did league?

Only asking because it seems like most people just aren't consistent in playing them and that's why they struggle with execution

Ya Blazblue Centralfiction, I played for months. Only that game.

I disagree. Team games are imo just because of the feeling of guilt from letting an entire team down.

@@comet8157 no

Yes, they don't want to put in "work". It's called a game and not a job for a reason.

@@HighLanderPonyYT That's kind of my point

I don't really agree with that. When you play larger scale and more complex FPS games like Arma, Planetside, or Red Orchestra 2, losing does not feel good. In Red Orchestra you feel like you're in a constant death loop of bullets and explosions all because the other team has better intel and teamwork than you. Or losing a base in Planetside 2 after fighting your hardest with your Outfit and the best damn tactics you could come up with for LITERAL HOURS because the enemy bombarded your base with a Bastion, all while you're helpless to stop it. Not to mention the lack of Voice Chat in many fighting games. Imagine hearing somebody hit you with Halo 3 back on the 360 level trash talk while counter breakering you and t-bagging you during the match while you can't do anything about it. I have yet to have that happen in a fighting game, but FPS is filled with the absolute emotionally abusive aspect at times that Fighting Games lack. You can emotionally devestate somebody with your moves in a Fighting Game, but you can't also Verbally devestate somebody at the same time like you can in a lot of FPS. There are some exceptions, like Killer Instinct or MVC 3(I think, unless that's no longer there.) but it's not as widespread as it should be. Voice chat would improve the Fighting Game experience a lot.

This is such a bad take with a lot of bias. I'm willing to bet that you and your friends have played more hours than you care to admit in league and have also played games that require you to use a mouse and keyboard prior to even learning league. Sajam makes a point when he was talking about people who have never even held a controller before play a shooter and can't wrap their head around what the sticks even do, but you know what a mouse and keyboard does. The amount of subconscious practice that you have, using the peripherals just by browsing the internet and using your mouse to click things, plays a huge role in what you consider an "execution barrier." I'm confident enough to assume that your friends have never played any game that requires the kinds of motions that fighting games do or let alone have had enough time spent on a fightstick compared to a mouse and keyboard. It's easy to not remember the countless hours that you've grinded in league compared to a fighting game. Like Sajam mentions, getting fucked up in a round takes about 10 to 20 seconds, but in league you can be trapped in an hour long match. I feel people tend to equate a match in a fighting game to be as long as league. Even a match in a shooter can last way longer than a fighting game match. Equating a dropped combo in, at max, a 99 second round to a 5 minute flash cooldown is not the same thing. Fucking up a rotation on your champion is a better example, and even then it's basically the same thing, you can't play for however long the death timer is, if you die from fucking up your rotation. This is all just considering individual play btw. What is there so much more to learn about in a single fighting game than there is in league? Team comps exist. Builds exist. Matchups exist in both genres but league has specific roles where you may even be auto-filled. Nothing in a fighting game is stopping you from picking the character that you want to play til the day you die. You only need to learn one character's matchups. I don't know why people who complain that fighting games are more punishing even bring up the "but your team can carry you" point, because if you've died twice and your opponent freezes the lane on you, you literally can't play the game at all. That's the match. That's outcome. Except you can't leave until your team wins or surrender. The real problem is the unwillingness for people, like your friends, to learn a new genre from the ground up because there's very little carryover mechanics from other genres. It's not that it's hard, they just have too much pride to admit that they're going to suck at a fighting game from the get-go and they don't want to bother with feeling that way. To build a safety net and say "it's too hard" is such a bs excuse when people have thousands of hours in league and aren't even the best players on their server, but then give up on a fighting game in only an hour.

@@JK-gw9jb I think they understand that it will take them a while too eventually be good.its just that from their perspective the skill floor is so high that they won't be able to have fun until they've dedicated hours to the game and most people don't really have the commitment to do that when they just want to have fun playing a game. As you said the skills in many games Don't really carry over into fighting game witch makes it like getting into video games all over again and for most beginners to just about any game failing over and over again isn't fun witch is why most people can't get into video games at an older age or without a great teacher. Fighting games are hard because the skills you need to play them aren't really be gathered from anywhere else at it feels like getting your ribs kicked in for hours.

Counter point: I didn't deserve most of the wins I've gotten in fighting games lmao

@@vegaspony touche

One of the first intelligent responses I've read!

@@vegaspony I feel you only really get that feeling when your actually good cause when your trash you think you deserve everything cause your ignorant to your mistakes or the facts

This is one of the best evaluations I've seen. I hope you are proud man. I absolutely love R6S, TF2, Insurgency and watching Dota but those games reward you for being shit if your teammates are good. I go into a match thinking "I hope I get carried by a god this game" but in Tekken or KI or GG it's just you and them. Reminds me of Quake deathmatch where you have no one to blame but yourself.

This was what I was about to comment, whilst everything he says is true about "getting good" it misses the point of the execution floor being SO high in most FGs. Which is why games like Fantasy Strike are SO needed and so much better for people to learn.

Comparison with other types of game is wrong. Shooting with awp is same as pressing the punch button in fighting game, you don't need to practice to press punch key. You have to study and practice all of these games. You can't even begin to play CS unless you understand counter strafing and recoil control for example. example like this are in every competitive game ever.

@Nivrap pressing the button to shoot is only part of process just like pressing the hit button after you perform qc.

@Bblurre In this context we were talking it is same. it doesn't take skill to press the button. Execution is sure hard in FGs but other competitive games have just as difficult mechanics that need to be learned just to play. Just look how hard CS is.

@Bblurre That's awesome! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do :-) (also plug you may like some of the videos on my channel, haha :D )

I definitely feel you on those trials. I was doing combo trials on blade strangers and ran into the same problem. Figuring out the timing for each combo without the game telling you can be a very frustrating experience in comparison to other games.

Can relate. Got KoF XIII (?) back in the day because I was curious or whatever. Got into the tutorial to get my feet wet. Took me about 2-3 hours to do a super they showed you once. Once. Never wanted to play the game again. Music is cool though.

@TheFeFfilms In that sense FGs have terrible conveyance.

@TheFeFfilms Yeah man, I've 100% been there too lmao

@@otooandoh9556 Can definately feel this. In Skullgirls different characters have different fall speeds as well as center and corner only combos (Delayed hits, first hit only cause the rest will mess it up, x number of hits cause to many or less will mess it up depending on the character). In SFV there are some combos that require you to dash inbetween inputs but the combo list doesn't tell you to dash. So for the longest time you're like why am I always wiffing it, until you watch the demonstration and notice a dash in the combo where it never told you to do one.

That's why this video is a bit bunk. There's no mediocrity to settle on with fighting games: you can only improve or get left behind. MOBAs you are afforded some resignation of rank and play among your own and win/loss stuck in stagnation.

The downtime is important because people can (unconsciously probably) reflect and adjust what to do. If instead you get 3 2 1 go and youre being hit again. An hour of fighting games you may have a few minutes between matches to reflect. A 1 hour moba game you probably only spent a few minutes engaging with an enemy as a beginner

@@pauldaulby260 Understandable, but another inherent difference here is that the only way to win in fighting games is essentially hitting your opponent while avoiding getting hit. There's no other strategy or way around it and you have to engage with your opponent somehow. I had this mindset when starting MOBAs/LOL as an FG player, but I soon realised that it didn't really matter. If your opponent knows the match-up better or can trade better or have better mechanics etc., just don't try to fight without clear advantage like summs or CDs. Just hug your tower, try to last hit, get vision and wait for your jungler/teammates to help. You can be useful in teams fights or provide utility in other ways even if you're a "worse" laner and would lose a 1v1. Unfortunately, there's no secondary way to win as a beginner or learner in FGs. You just have to interact and deal some damage, even in games where you can play runaway, keepout or turtle very successfully.

Dyrus also picked up Final Fantasy XIV recently. Granted, skillcap on MMO aren't near other stuff, but he's already clearing the hardest content in the entire game, something cleared by about 0.0709% of players on the NA servers. Guy's generally good at games.

The average MOBA player is trash compared to higher tiers. I'm only master and I can absolutely body people in diamond or lower, making their entire 20-40 minutes hell, to the point where they can't even reach waves to level up Against the average rank (silver), I would shit stomp them so hard they'd consider quitting the game entirely. People who play just fighters don't realize how big the gap is in mobas, as well.

You know, unless you're playing VF/DoA

@@arielpeluso959 mortal kombat too. Unfortunately I'm currently into tekken where theres a metric fuckton of moves and learning their properties means using 3rd party resources for some reason.

Tbf most of the "lack of information" stuff comes from legacy games. There are games that give you a decent amount of information and tactics like Arcsys games or Fantasy Strike (I think). Even then, MK and now SFV tell you frames.

@@kholdkhaos64ray11 VF4 Tutorial and Pro A.I. 'nuff said. I agree with Arcsys too, they try to help.

@@kholdkhaos64ray11 that's a fair point but even then it does require you to go into training mode and find the moves/setups your opponent was using to see what your options are. The only game I can think of that made a serious attempt at conveying information to players mid match is fantasy strike.

Not really. I know plenty of people who love learning while playing fighting games and will only ever lab for combos.

Lolhounds!!!!!!!!

Not labbing stuff will just take longer than actually trying to learn it in training mode.

@@kamijira It may take longer, but it's better that they do what's fun which will motivate them to keep playing rather than doing it the correct way, getting bored and then giving up.

@@Necromitzu1 That's right, yes. If you don't find it fun to lab, just play a lot.

RIP my beautiful 60% winrate while the free Street Fighter 5 weekend.

How so?

@@U9B I think the biggest problem I have with the learning content in fgc in comparison to other ones is that the guides made by fgc people seems more like a guide made by high level players to one day create another mid-high level player. The guides are terribly open ended and is more of analysis of the character's moveset and often times all over the place. If you know the game already you can nod along and approve of the things being said and be like "Yeah those are things newbies should want to know." But they are not very good guides to help someone start out. And I'm not here saying all dota guides or league guides or starcraft guides and so on are better. But those games have beginner guides that is relatively easy to find that just tell you what to do so that new players can have some scaffold to grab on to while they start learning the game. This used to lead me into having to relearn characters multiple times in the span of the first few days of picking up fighting games. Because of this, I have created a sort of flow chart of what I type of content I would like to look at when I pick up a new fighting game. But I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for someone who doesn't have the same level of experience trying to learn a fighting game for the first time.

@@MageKirby You mean because you have to cut through the jargon of the selected game? That's the only barrier of entry I can see that being an issue with. I think many of those are written under the assumption you have basic skills in Fighting Games or that game in particular.

@@U9B Yes! There is too much open ended info in a guide for beginners. The beginner opens a guide for beginners hoping the expert is giving the most important learnable bit to start from. And the horizon for the player needs to be slowly widened. But there isn't guides thats does this. Its more of an information dump of what a high level player views as basic.

Intuition to learn is a great point. If I leave you to play Mario without lessons, you'll figure it out very soon. If I leave you to play FPS, you'll take some time, but you'll get there pretty soon. Your aim is shoddy, but you'll understand what you need to do cause every button is intuitive. But a FG? You have a menus of tutorials in GG, yet, you still gotta teach yourself neutral, frame data, reads and adaption, all from out of the game sources. And that's after you learn the cluster fuck of base mechanics like animation cancel, disjoints, and teching, all of which are the opposite of the word "intuitive." Moba have the same problem, when you leave a person in the game alone, there's a billion things that are not intuitively designed (eg. items vs HOTS's progression tree), thanks to its root from 15 years ago. For that reason, Riot, Valve, Blizzard and Hi-rez have placed alot of ingame learning material + community incentives to guide the learning process. The shop recommendation that you can auto-purchase in every game? That's one of these newb assistance tools.

Probably not.

Yeah, RTSes are way more complex than MOBAs, if only because you control multiple units at once.

@@HighLanderPonyYT they just require very different skillsets. MOBAs skills don't necessarily translate into RTS skills, and vice versa.

@@giordihero Well yeah, that, too.

I agree with it.

This exactly!

Learning fighting games is easy if you don't care about winning