FF16 is a big game with many things. many cool things, but also some less cool things. this video is about those things. #ff16 #finalfantasy16 #finalfantasy #gamereview #essay
Just to clear up something. The woman that are friends with CID are their to help him in his goals. It doesn't say he slept with all of them. Also benadikta sleeps around only because her boss barnabas told her too. CID wasn't scolding her for having sex, it was because she was only going it for a tyrant king that doesn't care about her.
Annabella is basically the female mortal version of Ultima. Both are obsessed with their place in the world and rising above everyone else to be “in their right place” Even the “love” she has for Joshua and Olivier is very narcissistic and self-absorbed, since she quickly found a new reason to rise to the top the moment her crappy plan nearly murdered Joshua. It’s no surprise Olivier ended up a meatsuit of Ultima. He had to do nothing to corrupt Annabella or the Emperor, they both corrupt by their own hands and he needs only to play the role of the child.
What I find cool about Final Fantasy protagonists like Cloud or Tidus is how vulnerable they actually are. Like damn Tidus is showing emotion even if it's cringy laughing. And Cloud isn't an edgy self-insert for the kid playing the game. He kinda is the kid wanting to be an edgy teen hero.
It’s not “daddy was good to the slaves” it’s dad was actively trying to get them recognized as equals and died before he could see that dream come to fruition meaning his sons had to continue that legacy.
Agreed, I think they kind of needed his character to be painted in a positive light because they wanted people to understand that no matter how good a persons intentions are, within an inherently flawed and oppressive system it simply doesn’t matter, dad was simply not able to do it, you can’t change anything from the inside, but by changing the status quo Clive can achieve his father’s dream.
As much as I've seen this echoed, it feels like too little too late. You find out about Papa Rosfield's intentions in a single cutscene capping off an optional endgame sidequest. I think that the sidequests in XVI are basically mandatory if you want to really absorb the themes and all the dope character work, but this is also an example of how it can be a problem. Nothing in young Clive's interactions with his dad or any prior story-relevant scenes speak to this struggle. It feels like an afterthought, which (in my opinion) is what happens to the Bearer/Slavery plot threads as a whole. They created a world with a societal problem you couldn't punch and solve, but then condensed every single issue into...a God you could punch, which would solve the problem. I appreciate the effort, I don't love the execution.
@@Miksho7 Just before the fight with Titan Clive tells Byron he was “raised in a nation that sought to lighten the bearer plight” or something close to that, and that is was his father that began this ideal. So it was brought up that’s what Elwin always wanted, in a pretty pivotal scene, too. Also I think a main point of the game is that often in oppressive systems violent revolution and a change to the status quo is the only thing that will bring real change. So saying all you do is punch a god to fix society is disingenuous (even if Ultima is a great embodiment of the game’s themes regarding class and the use of people as tools and resources). You also kill the great leaders that perpetuate the system and use it to subjugate the bearers, remember Cid theorises that many leaders might already know the mother crystals are fucked up, but that truth is inconvenient to them.
@@TheRustyLampPost Tbf. wanting to "lighten the bearer plight" doesn't really say much in terms of liberation, it's an implication at best which isn't really enough. But I agree that Clive killing world leaders that perpetuate slavery does help promote a more revolutionary reading
Ultimately, for me, we didn't spend enough time as young Clive in Rosaria to really get a feel for his father or how Rosaria treated it's Bearers. The time we got as young Clive was just right to get what we need for the greater story, but I'd want a young Clive and Bearer-Assassin Clive DLCs to flesh them out.
They didn't destroy crystals to free the bearers from magic, they destroyed crystals because they were sucking the life of the land. In fact they were trying to free the bearers by creating a network of likeminded people and a literal utopia of equal people in the hideaway
"Curing" people of a born aspect that causes them to be treated differently in a society is ALWAYS poorly written, it doesn't matter how else you intend to explain it.
@@samwill7259 The thing is though, that the intention was never to "cure" the bearers. Clive nuking magic out of existence was completely incidental. Cid even makes the point that, in the proposed plan, things are going to get much worse for the Bearers before things get better. The purpose of taking away the mothercrystals was to force society out of dependence on magic, and thus eventually make the ability to do magic no longer a sought-after commodity. The game never really tackles the power imbalance that a mothercrystal-less world would have, primarily because the characters are told the "born aspect" you are talking about was entirely created by an arguably malevolent god, and was never a "true" part of the people. By trying to draw direct allegory to race or disability, you yourself are making the writing nasty. The writing isn't inherently nasty.
@@samuelcampbell1730 If it is something immutable that people are born with, regardless of source or other use in story, then it becomes a racial allegory. That's just how the context is going to read, universally. This is basic writing knowledge that people have. Even if you didn't intend it to be a racial allegory, it is one, because that's just how it's going to be read. Period.
@@samwill7259 That's just outright dumb and you are certainly wrong. Prejudice exists far outside of a purely racial basis and you are extrapolating what I can only imagine is your own personal experience into some universal truth when it very much is not. Prejudice can manifest from homophobia and misogyny, for example, both targeting things that the victim is born as. So, again, by boxing in the Bearers as an allegory for one particular real-life incident of prejudice, you yourself are making the writing nasty. Your own preconceived notions and personal interpretations are not "basic writing knowledge". And, as I'm sure you'd agree, implying that Maehiro's writing is an allegory for how minorities should just stop being minorities magically IRL is absurd.
I absolutely adored XVI but Thor absolutely hit the nail on the head re: female characters in the game. Jill, when she got to do things, was phenomenal, but she was absolutely at best tangential to the story and development, pushed out whenever convenient.
I haven't played it myself, but I assume it's a fujo-centric game. They just want to see hot guys bro-ing out with other hot guys. Any women in the story actively gets in the way of that.
@@happymate8943then why give her personality at all if they're going to take 1 step forward tor every 2 steps back. Why develop her at all or allow her to have meaning? If it's *just* to service Clive's growth as a character, most people would label that as poor storytelling. If that's not the intent then they simply should have fleshed Jill out properly and given her more time to shine
@@happymate8943 The same could be said of Ifrit, Ramuh, Titan, and Bahamut, and yet their Dominants get a lot more agency. And even if that weren't the case, "this is how it's always been" is never a good excuse to keep archaic and outmoded tropes and cliches alive.
@@walksinrain Likely because she's also Clive/ifrits lover. In ff series both ifrit and Shiva are either enemies, rivals, lovers. They probably don't want her to be bland imo. Although looking back , other than the cult on fire island, she doesn't seem to focus on any goals for herself only for clive's safety and his goals.
I feel like I had the same problems with Thor on the writing of some themes, it really came as awkward when the things he mentioned came up. IMO the greatest gripe with XVI is that, almost all of the side content contains VITAL information about the world and the characters that get sidelined, and in the last 10 or so hours the game bombards you with so much side shit that it really can miss the point much than it already does.
@@LilMissThorFeel exactly the same. They wanted to tackle big themes without having to come to grips with the severity of the topics that's itself unavoidable and that killed any possible resonance it might have had for me.
I was really disappointed by Jill being mostly there to support Clive. The section where she gets to be the focus felt really forced to me. She keeps saying things like, "Clive I need you to understand that I have to do this." To which Clive is always like, "Yeah, I totally get it." Then you don't get to play as her, not even as Shiva. Shit was a let down for me. There's the basis for a great character there. Maybe she'll get some DLC attention.
She’s probably not the main character obviously and to be completely honest there’s like a dozen characters in the game that need shine. The crux of the story is literally Joshua and Clive.
@@1kbmahan exactly. it's a tale of two brothers. Jill is important to both of them. especially Clive but, she is not the focus. it is a little disapointing that she didn't get much after Barnabas but, really at that stage it was full steam ahead on the Joshua Clive let's end this train.
I never liked Jill, the main theme of the story was brotherhood between Joshua and Clive, yet the dog got more screen time than both brothers together, also 18 years is a LONG time. I despise timeskips, let alone 2 in a single story😤
Ondore's medievaly journal interstitials in FF12 are some of the best writing in that game, I love it: "The Treaty would be signed with Steel and Writ in royal Blood", beautiful language. All around the English localization for FF12 is phenomenal and part of what makes it one of the best games ever made.
I love the classically trained theatre actors they hired for that game, a lot of the dialogue couldn't have been pulled off by lesser actors. "Too late and to their sorrow do those who misplace their trust in gods learn their fate!"
Everything about the writing even if you don't quite understand the finer details adds so much to that world and game. I found it so magical as a child and need to get back to replaying it.
yes, here! 12 did medieval-esque timelines and dialogue so much better than 16! It sounded way too modern with all the F-bombs being dropped like they were teens, sure Square drew inspiration from GoT, but only in the first few hours, then it all fell apart :(
thats where most of the script problems stem from in the early games... "Localization" ...since woolsey was notoriously loose with actually translating it and instead making it more palatable for the 'murican audience, which lead to less fantasy and more modern speech. this is why you get silly memes like "Spooney Bard".
I've personally had a sort of disappointment on how much media focuses on like the big angry guy perspective. This video is great like all the rest of your content but it's nice to see you talking on something you got some personal opinions on and stuff. Opening up and talking about stuff a little is cool and im glad your cozy enough with your audience to talk on these sorts of things
While I take issue with some of the perspectives expressed here, I can agree to this point for sure. I too am glad Thor is able to share and be intimate with his audience in this way.
You talking about when you found out Kuja was a dude reminds me of the first time I played FF7 for the first time six or so years ago and thought Sephiroth was 50 years old or older because of his gray hair.
I really feel like Anabella was a deliberate homage-via-trope of Cercei, just processed thru the tropes of a JRPG. The number one change I'd have made in this game would be Benedickta having a face turn instead of just dying at the end of her fight with Clive
The parallels with Cersei Lannister are obvious, but I feel that it falls flat without all the context that Cersei enjoyed, notably her father's fucked-up views of Lannister superiority and the fact that she worked as much for her family as she did for herself. Anabella is very proud of her bloodline and family, but she seems to be the only member of her family still around and she doesn't even have a last name of her own.
Those aren’t CID’s “side bitches” they are characters who have an actual relationship with him and support him and his cause. It’s even revealed that cid owes these women a huge debt for helping him fund the hideaway in the first place. Cid even set aside a rare jewel for each of these characters has payment for these massive debts and the quest ends with each of the women saying how they aren’t helping for monetary gains or anything in return They just support cid and his views.
Exactly how i read it, surprisingly most of the villages are run by smart, compassionate and strong women. And i just accepted it as part of the world. I wasn't amazed by it because i believe that drawing attention to it undermines it. It was good writing in my opinion because it felt seamless
I felt the portrayal of women npcs was better than most games I play. You had Marta and the Dame actually have important fleshed out quest lines. I agree about Jill though, they throw her so far to the wayside I thought they like wrote a part of the story with her out or added her after a bunch of quests. She just never talks to anyone really aside from Clive.
@@heepispeepis I agree with Benedikta's story being cut needlessly short. The story can still have Hugo go after "Cid" by having Waloed send a fake vindictive letter to him written by "her."
@@J-manli Yeah its strange how after the fight shes just laying there uninjured and they decide to just leave and the scene is over and later with Hugo they tell you she's dead
@@1chibanKasugai never assumed cid slept with anybody, especially when at the beginning of the game you find out through a sidequest he has a daughter. Not that it would be impossible for him to sleep around but still i just thought he used his charisma to get to know the powerful women who are leaders in their respective villages
I was really really REALLY trying to save this video for after I had played the game since I wanted to go in full no spoilers, but I cracked after 2 weeks- I can't miss a Thor video talking about Final Fantasy, I just can't!! Worth the spoilers tbh LOL. I really like how you talk about the FF franchise as one that skirts around a lot of the default misogyny that comes with a lot of stuff in a similar vein (even other stuff published by Square!). I think that's an aspect of the series that NEVER gets talked about enough, especially with how popular the series is among women and queer people, and the way the series has been historically mocked or seen as "not real games" for that. You really put into words a lot of the concerns I had with XVI just from the marketing, especially as another in a string of recent FF releases that have been very bro-heavy. I can't speak for the game itself since I haven't played it, but I really appreciate your willingness to talk about it from that point of view, and to be critical of it, while not devolving into a "thing is bad and here's why" take. Always love your insight Thor 🤘Thanks for always talking about the cool shit with such nuance
It sucks that Jill's arc ended after the beach scene, but it was a fantastic scene imo. I felt the transfer of power and choosing to carry more burden so Jill's life could be spared from the curse was sweet, though I wish she was still around more after. Only time you get to use her again is after the flowers sidequest (which I also loved), and it shows that she can still use her ice abilities. I wish she would have gone with you to the final battle tbh. She could have primed one more time, like Dion.
To be fair all Dominants are bearers as well so Jill had innate abilities independent of Shiva. Didn’t make it less annoying that she was sidelined in favor of Dion riding off with the brothers.
@@gateauxq4604 I get the reason why, b/c her curse was progressing faster due to her overuse of Shiva during her servitude to the Ironbloods & the few times it accelerated afterward, but still. That's a writing contrivance to keep Jill out of the final battle that could have been avoided. I liked having Dion up there, but it would have been even cooler having the Ice Queen too. Pun fully intended.
Dion was ready to die. He actually _wanted_ to die. By that time, Jill had found a reason to live again. There was a real risk that priming one final time would cause Dion to lose control (as it did with Benedikta and Hugo) but he managed to keep control to the end. It's why he's got a dumb grin on his face even as he's falling at Origin. He felt like he had atoned for his previous loss of control with his maintaining control that last final time.
@@katarh It's frustrating that Dion was kept in his doom spiral: his lover was still alive, he bonded with the Medicine Girl and, if you did the side quest, he was able to reunite with his old tutor and made a promise to meet again. Them killing off Dion, albeit in a grandiose fashion, while Joshua, Jill and (maybe) Clive survive makes it more seem like he was a viable target for a dramatic sacrifice because he was the Gay Guy.
“There’s nothing more Masculine than to wear clothes that you want or clothes that make you feel ‘handsome’ , and to not let the opinions of others to sway your thoughts.” - My Mum (Single Parent trying to raise a Boy into a Man)❣️
"because an interpretation can be placed on this that would be really terrible, even if it was unintended, that means the writers were out of their depth" but this can be done with pretty much anything and everything
I did not get the impression that Cid slept with characters like Martha or Eloise. (Isabelle? Absolutely.) Those two gals run non-brothel businesses, and Cid's biggest strength was the ability to form networks with both men and women. All I really wanted was more Jill time. Hoping that if they do add DLCs, we get more of Benedikta's story, and more of just what Jill did during those five years to make it so dangerous for her to prime.
When they implied Jill and Clive were pining I could feel the faith I had in Jill being nuanced in any way completely trickling down the drain. The romance between them should have never happened. There's nothing wrong with a romance between two lead characters but the two were raised as siblings; making it incredibly difficult to be interested in their relationship as a couple without it being creepy. That writing decision made it clear to me that the writers did not care who they were pairing together and only wanted an excuse to affirm Clive's heterosexuality.
@@canhedotricks6078she was sent to rosaria as a deal for peace, as a potential bride. I admit i thought they were siblings but they were childhood friends. Really says more about you than the writers if you read it as creepy
@@dongodongo12 Yeah, I always got the impression she was meant to unite the two houses, but because the Northern Lands were about to be lost to the Blight, they went with the tradition of sending her as a foster so she could be raised as a bride for one of the sons in the future. Anabella would probably have never allowed Joshua to marry a "savage" so Clive was the next logical choice, but I also think Elwin would have let the kids decide for themselves, too. He knew first hand how painful a loveless arranged marriage could be.
Great video again Thor. I was wondering about the bendikta scene before her transformation. I didn't think she was SA'ed there. I thought the garuda fusion triggered and blew away the dudes trying to touch her. I agree with your points about how they used her in the story. From the trailers, I thought she would be around for at least more than half the game as an on again off again villain.
Many of the aesthetics in this game even seem to be late coming responses to the complains that fifteen years ago some guys were making about FFXII not being more "serious and realistic", or it having a teen twink by main char and not the thirty yo rugged guy
Great video. love your usual grab bag approach, but I also really I enjoyed this more focused review. By all means, talk more about square games and gender
I'm at the very end of FFXVI, the giant amount of side stuff that popped up before the last dungeon got me a little burnt out, but I would say I enjoyed it for the most part. While I would say it's too early to say where I would place it on my personal list I appreciate how despite how grim dark it looked on the surface there is a ton of room for more light hearted and outright beautiful moments. Also very much dig those "looks like a real place vibe".
I really, truly agree with the problems with Jill as a character, I feel like she gets precious little to do and fades more and more into the background when she's not allowed to be a Marvel vs Capcom assist and that's a shame because she seems cool. And while I don't disagree with the problems with using SA in the case of Benedikta and others (which I assume is partially inspired by Berserk, potentially for the worse), I do think it's reductive to boil down Cid's "Is this how you want to live?" speech to just her sleeping around and not all the atrocities she committed in the name of an Empire, using her newfound power to prey upon others and make them feel as powerless as she herself once did.
This is definitely one of the best videos I've seen on XVI. You give so much love to the smaller things I don't see too many other people talking about (like walking through the forest with Histoire playing) but you also point out some of the weirder things it has. That being said, to me, the game does feel very masculine, but in a healthy way. Clive's relationships and how he expresses his love for them is was tells me this. He is constantly telling everyone close to him how he holds them dear, like when Gav gets insecure while drinking, and Clive reassures him, then later embraces him before the end of the game (almost brought me to tears). I just wish the female characters (mainly Jill) got more to do, and didn't feel just there to be there for Clive, because I really enjoyed her presence and character design. The game generally could really have benefited the type of banter that was in games like FF Remake. Anyways, sorry for the ramble, great video!
I haven't played FF16 yet but I heard rumbling about how some of it's topics weren't handled as well as they could have. I really appreciate your perspective and you did a great job helping me understand just why that might be. Glad despite it all you were able to find a great game here that I might one day give a try.
You are one of my fav content creators on this entire site, and this may be one of my fav videos of yours. You getting more personal in the middle was super fascinating to hear about (and also taught me that maybe if I'd played a few final fantasy games as a kid/teen I'd have found out queer parts of myself much earlier than I did). Would definetly want to hear more about it, and loved your perspective on this game's story!
I agree with most of the video but when you got to the point of "The fact that I can wildly misread the game's themes means that something is wrong with the writers themselves" I found it to honestly be insane; it sounds like something you'd hear on Twitter. I also don't think destroying the crystals was "Let's make all the slaves normal" I think it's exactly what it's presented as, freeing slaves. The game still has an in-universe story to tell and not every analogy is gonna be 1:1 with our real world history and issues. Besides that though, everything you said about the treatment of female characters and conceits of setting felt spot on.
admittedly the thing about the possible reading was a first draft thing I just spammed into my notes while playing that made it in cuz I made this video back to back with the last one n by the time I got to that point in the script I was a lil done with it all and indeed of a break so I didn't look at my own notes as critically as I normally would. the moment I heard it in editing I was like yea nah not how I would've liked to have phrased that but shit is what it is I guess. I don't think that makes me insane just lazy. I do legit just feel v unsure about that as a plot direction still tho. I know the characters in the game do too it's defo not treated as a catch all bandaid on the situation. like this isnt goint to magically fix their society. but I dunno it just felt a lil under cooked to me. also while I am fully aware that the circumstances in the game don't fully mirror real life, I'm also not the one who made a side quest npc say the term "bearer lover". the moment that dropped I couldn't help but scan along with how it does or doesn't align with real life as a commentary or whatever. and I feel a lil conflicted about that. tho ultimately not where my main beefs were at with the story, obviously, so I'm sure I coulda missed things there. but imo, i do think it's more complex then merely freeing the slaves. cuz like, well just in gerenal, imo, if there's a problem in a society, and at the root of that problem sits something ppl are born with, then I don't think the solution to that problem should Ever be to make that thing go away. cuz the problem then is the society. they freed the slaves by making the magic users no longer magic users. even standing alone as in game universe shit, I think that sucks.
Canonical sex. 7 late game has a very similar fade to black that implies Tifa and Cloud do it. Later dev discussions in Ultimanias discussed it as such.
I'm just starting the video, but I thought 16 did a brilliant job of showing what it's like to be a desired himbo that's committed to the mission. It may or may not hit very close to home for me.
awesome video thor :) I'd love to hear you talk about your personal story sometime if you'd like to, seems like a really interesting and unique topic that isn't very talked about !!!
The masculinity in the West vs the East are really different. FF men are still consider extremely manly for Asians, even if they are seen as androgenous by Western standard.
I love when people just make shit up about my culture. No, they’re twinky boys here too. They are specifically designed to look androgynous. Do you think they put cloud in a dress because he’s super masculine?
I love this video (and all of your videos, really). You expressed very clearly what I like about this series, what I like about this game (I think is fantastic) but especially what I didn't like about the potrayal of women and sexual assault. I can't do this any better. This discutions are important in every piece of media, even and especially with things we like. Many people gets mad about this and I don't get it. Conversation is important and is part of the maturity of video games as an art form. Also, you are really funny.
Thanks for showing us your unique perspective on games! I was never interested in this one because it was an action game, but I can't deny that the look of early promotional material turned me right off even then. It looked like it was aping all the stuff I don't like about shows like GoT. I don't like stuff that thinks it needs cursing, gore and sex (in whatever form) to be 'mature'--that's such a surface-level way to look at it. I'm glad you had fun with it, despite the flaws. Edit: Oh yeah, I laughed when you went 'lesbians' and you showed footage of Fang and Vanille! Ha! It's so true.
They 100% should swap XIV WoL out for Yoshi P's Lala. 3ft tall friendos can kill gods too dammit! As much as I enjoyed FFXVI I really hope XVII genderly swings in the opposite direction and we get another Charlie's Angels X-2 style game. Jill losing all non-Clive related agency after killing the patriarchy was genuinely upsetting. I really wanted to see her grow as a character, making friends with Tharja, Mid, and Charon but the female cast hardly share a word :(
16:00 It's in this regard that I'm less hard on XVI than I am with XV, because XV was very much a game about "guys doing guy things" but with a superficial and insincere element to it that saw Hajime Tabata say things like, "the addition of a female character as a party member would change how the men behave around each other", except even without the women around the bros were still somehow emotionally constipated and their shows of vulnerability and the resolution of their emotional arcs come in the late game, confined solely to DLC, or in Noctis's case, literally after the credits. Where Clive is allowed to express a variety of emotions including his grief not reserved for "moments with his boys" while keeping a veneer of "cool indifference" around the girls, every time Noctis got even remotely upset about his dad or about Lunafreya, there would be a character there primed to tell him to shut up and that he was too coddled, but now he has to MAN UP and BE THE PROTECTOR. Noctis doesn't make any real overtures to Lunafreya or admits that he felt some way about her until she's already dead. Before that, he has the option to indifferently write "Got it" three consecutive times in the only times he ever communicates to her through his notebook. His tears for her are shed to thin air with no one around or while the other guys are KOed from hypothermia. Sarah in the DLC tells him he needs to be more honest about how he feels before it's too late, really going hard on the fact that he's holding in his emotions. Gladio gets punked out by Ravus and feels emasculated, thus he goes on a manlyquest to swing his sword at things really hard and build up a literal Rage Meter, because he feels he isn't manning hard enough, and he gets lessons from Cor who admits he's kind of a fraud and didn't beat Gilgamesh as hard as people thought he did. There's some brief lip service to the idea that Gladio is afraid of failure, but this never comes back; he goes right back to telling Noctis to MAN UP and that he's CODDLED and HE NEEDS TO BE THE PROTECTOR when he's experiencing grief after Chapter 9, denying Noctis closure/mourning and the visit to Tenebrae that Luna literally asked him to do, in the belief that Noctis will simply give up. Ignis's relationship to Noctis in the English version and his casting in general was supposed to evoke "cool stoic Sherlock-type" and "the Alfred Pennyworth to Noct's Bruce Wayne" and his DLC includes spiritual mentorship from Ravus to teach him how to be an older brother as Regis decreed him be since he was like, six, and his highly emotional moment (the almost zealous element to his overprotectiveness of Noct) comes when Noctis is out cold or absent, and no other guy is present/conscious to see him lose his cool except Ardyn; he dons his cool stoic "protect Noct" mask when the other men around return or awaken. Prompto is the twinkest twink to ever twink in the party, and they all get their turns ribbing on him including implying he's still fat, or that he'll get fat if he so much as eats a burger. Guys like Gladio would bully guys like Prompto, easily. His character arc in Brotherhood is like a misread of The Little Mermaid in that he changes his entire appearance just to be worthy of the attention of the boy he fancies (Noctis), and all the boy ever said to him before then was _"you're heavy!"._ He performs a bunch of unrecognized emotional labor for the party only to be rewarded with snide remarks about how useless he is (or being shoved by his face on the train) and his character arc in his DLC centers around how useful he is to Noctis and his friends and needing validation from Noctis. The journey he undertakes in his DLC is never mentioned to the others, Aranea asks him what he wants for himself and his answer amounts to "join back with Noct and the others", and the one detail that keeps him going and maintains his faith in his friends is pretty much a lie: "Noctis told me to come look for you", when Noctis never told Aranea to do that. He's the youngest and the most waifish of the boys, and thus he's Damseled for Noctis to rescue in Gralea, a detail that never happens to Gladiolus or even to Ignis when _Ignis_ is kidnapped to Gralea in his own DLC-- Iggy's given free reign to wander around the compound! Noctis defeats the antagonist Ardyn not by a display of empathy for what he's been through or any attempt to reason with him or purge him of his scourge by using healing ability, but by agreeing with God that Ardyn in all his flamboyance and non-conformity to traditional gender has to be killed in a fight. All because way back when, he used Oracle-like healer abilities as a Lucis Caelum when the lore states that power belongs to women, opposed to Somnus who is not a healer and instead burned infected bodies, where traditional Caelum powers are all about black magic and summoning offensive weaponry. This non-conformity left him "unclean" and rejected from kinghood. Ardyn, in the end, has to die by _swordfight._ Only for Noctis to die by _impalement._ To then go to the afterlife and hit Ardyn with a bunch of swords _super hard._ And then it turns out Noctis did have his emotional breakthrough and admit how much his guys mean to him.... but it took him his fiancée being long dead and his own death being around the corner for him to come to terms with his journey. It was left to after the credits when the game was already over and not shown when it was actually appropriate in the chronology. Lunafreya centering her entire life around Noctis since age 4 was lol, Iris's character being defined by "crushes on Noct" was lol, Aranea being there to deliver exposition on the Empire and having an offscreen character arc was lol, Cindy just being eye candy for Prompto to Nice-Guy-ishly put on a pedestal and Gladio to comment on was lol, Gentiana only showing up to talk to Noctis about how much Luna is slavishly and uncomplainingly bearing his burdens for him (but doing nothing to help Luna in Chapter 9 because Luna's only value is dying for Noctis at that point) is lol. Her appearing in Chapter 10 or 11 to give him the Trident and expound that _she_ is the one who groomed Luna to center her life around Noctis since age 4 is even more lol. Shiva proceeding to define herself by her love of Ifrit and making him the reason she "loves humanity" because he did it first and inspired her, instead of her having an intrinsic motivation to love humans was lmao, even.
@@questioningespecialy9107 Don't let all that I said stop you from playing the game; if "just vibing with the boys" is your thing, go for it and ignore the rest of the plot and like, half the banter. It's just weird to me how the game presents itself as a fun time with the boys yet not even the worldbuilding is safe from Some Writer's Weird Hangup over Gender Politics: Take for instance, Lestallum, the one town on the map where "women do the work and the men stay at home! ♥️" and it's touted as super progressive and feminist, but in execution it's a cautionary tale on The Dangers of Women's Lib: you hear the male NPCs complaining about how they feel less manly because their wife earns more money than them, or another NPC discourages his son's aspirations to work at the nearby power plant because "that's women's work". There actually are plenty of men who own shops in Lestallum and Noct can interact with all these merchants, where the interactions are "equal" between Noct and the shopkeep (Noct wants item, has money, Merchant wants money, has item. They trade. Transaction over.) but the interaction with Holly (the only *actual* female NPC that isn't Iris) is framed as unequal-the boys of the party are the ONLY ones that can do the work she wants done, and she needs them, but the bros don't need her. Daemons overrun her power plant one time and all the "working women" of the city are hiding away at home and none of them are combat ready. This is also somehow apparently a job that Prompto, the most squishy member of the bros, can handle and isn't himself hiding away from. Holly's quests involve moments where the bros more or less make fun of her PTSD and how they don't believe it's real (she claims her back hurts at the mere mention of daemons; what's happening is that Holly is Cindy's friend through Cindy's parents who died being mauled by demons when Cindy was just 5-6, and their deaths caused Holly to devote herself entirely to her work and neglect self-care, leading to a back injury. And in general, PTSD triggers can be anything and can manifest physically, making the banter in this section of the game serious Yikes.) Also, the Oracles. At least four of them are meet an untimely demise for the sake of a king or protecting a close male and providing that man's motivation. Despite their importance to the lore as being the only ones capable of holding the "world-destroying darkness" at bay, the story moves on without them, they're replaced as unceremoniously as old batteries on a remote, and one of them is even replaced by a male king taking her role just fine-not even a man in the Oracle's own bloodline, but a king in Noct's bloodline who just decided to take on her role until a legitimate successor came of age. Meanwhile the one notable female king within Noct's line has a specific backstory of "the people of her kingdom didn't like that she was king, because she's a woman and that's not a woman's job". So uhhhhhhhhhh... yeah. The game's one of THOSE types when you look under the hood.
@@ultimamage3 _spots another RU-vid comment mini essay_ 🙌🏿 Also, yeah~ I'mma skip that game entirely and just enjoy video essays instead. Don't need that kinda bs in my life. thanks
@@questioningespecialy9107 At the risk of kicking a dead horse here, it bears (heheh) mentioning how funny it is this video brings up the game's treatment of Elwin as "one of the good ones" as suspect, given how _insidiously awful_ the same thing is in XV, it's just that little attention is drawn to it in the game. No one says anything about how King Regis treated his people, and anyone with criticism against Regis or Noctis is a villain that has to be killed and defiled for their transgression. XVI doesn't exactly frame the system of bearers as ideal, Clive and Elwin exist in that system and are complicit by acting within it, and not everything bad can be pinned on Anabella. XV meanwhile treats King Regis as a good king and a good father who did nothing wrong, except Regis exploited downtrodden refugees from conquered lands for his personal army. Said soldiers are only recruited when they have nothing more to lose, get treated as second-class, live in substandard housing akin to the Midgar slums from FF7. Regis otherwise employed a "strict refugee policy" that didn't let outsiders in, and never thought of exporting the anti-daemon technology the city uses to protect the rest of the kingdom outside of it, resulting in lives lost to completely preventable deaths (see: Cindy's parents), all before the setup of the game where he intentionally lets Insomnia be invaded just to save Noctis, because Noctis's life is literally that valuable. But he didn't bother preparing Noctis for his journey or telling him what his destiny was, he raised him as a "normal boy" to spare him the stress of knowing it, which screwed everyone else over. There is NO criticism of the system and classism within XV; the classism is its backbone. The Divine Right of Kings is canon to the timeline. The royalty really _is_ blessed with powers that make them better than the common man, passed down to them by the gods. No criticism of the "heroes' side" is allowed no matter what reprehensible things are done by the heroes or how Noctis and his allies endanger the lives of common people. For XVI, Clive, Jill, and maybe Cid have moments where they question if their journey is the right thing, and it's even mentioned outright that people won't just randomly grovel at their feet just because they're playing hero. No such consideration happens in XV because that story already decided that the only people who criticize the good guys must be the bad guys, and Noctis was predestined to be the hero so everyone must have faith in him specifically. Kingsglaive the movie is basically "Refugees Bad: The Movie". The climax comes from half the eponymous force betraying the king over his false promises, except for Nyx the protagonist who's "one of the good ones" when he remains on the side of the royalty exploiting him, shows absolute faith in King Regis's decisions, and gives his life to stop the villains of the movie. The "traitors" who betrayed Regis are later treated in the playable MMO "Comrades" as ungrateful sinners who bit the hand that fed them, then revived from the dead to "repent" for their "sins" by showing fealty to Noctis in turn and fighting in service of him, because again, Noctis is destined to be the world's savior by the word of the gods and a magic rock. There is no other way, so they had to fall in line, or else. Ultimately at the end of the game when Noctis is facing off against Ardyn, Noctis makes no mention of the common people who helped him get to where he is the way Clive acknowledges his "brothers and sisters"-- shit, the start of XV features banter that Noct is _debasing himself_ by helping commoners with errands, he's literally "too good" to be doing sidequests. There's brief visual lip service in the ending where Noctis is surrounded by his close friends and his dad, because by all standards of the game, those three friends, his dad, and ostensibly his fiancée are literally _the only people that matter in Noct's journey,_ certainly not the reporter NPC who spreads lore, the researcher NPC studying the effects of the plague on the natural world and figures out its source, the various cook NPCs who provide buffs for the party, or the jeweler NPC who's trying to create protective items to help people without magical bloodline bullshit. ( Even then Noct's friends are superfluous, because the power he actually uses to vanquish Ardyn and the Starscourge comes from not from his friends having faith in him or the bonds he forged, but from a prophecy, his royal bloodline, his girlfriend's bloodline, the gods of the setting, and a magic rock. )
When you recognise a voice actor and want to put a face to the voice... I'm OK with mapping voice actors faces or letting them create an avatar to use in games they appear in. Anyone else on board with me for that? Vocal and visual representation of the character, especially with such a recognizable voice. And if they voice multiple characters and reuse their voice (like Fry's voice actor in Futurama also playing a lot of the other dudes on the show) then they can have a few different avatars
FFT I don't think is fully in the "men doing things" category. Like most of the main active political cast is dudes but Agrias and Alma are extremely important, Agrias being your strongest character for a while. Besides that Miluda's whole thing over two battles conveys a ton of character. It is annoying that classes have gender based stat changes but that feels like a weird Ogre battle leftover more than FF dna. Plus the art is pretty androgynous oftentimes.
Nice video Thor i enjoyed hearing your perspective on the game. Your video makes me feel stronger in my opinion that later side quest should have been in the main story. Jill for example in hers says why she likes clive, how Annabelle tried to do her dirty, and that she actually wants to travel the world. Vivans is about a book that exposes how bearers were first made slaves, which is apparently her inspiration for her being a scholar, and there's 3 quest where the premise is clive and crew helping bearers settle their own town and 1 where you go back and help them support themselves. All these were things i enjoyed but i kept thinking this shouldn't be a side quest this should be a part in the main story. They even tell how side characters met Cid, which surprised me since most are basically they were in trouble until Cid shows up and says hey join my team.
"What could possibly be more Japanese than Square Enix?" Square Enix has been trying to make games to appeal to Europe and North America for the past 10 years at least. Literally, you can read investor meetings and their talks about wanting to expand into overseas markets. Square Enix hasn't been "that weird Japanese company" since they were SquareSoft
I think some of the readings you take from certain plot points are maybe unnecessarily bad faith, but I think I can understand that perspective given how gross some of the plot points are, it's a game that kind of accidentally makes you read things in a certain way that I think weren't necessarily intentional. Like with the mothercrystals, I think that was more of a commentary on how we can't really build class consciousness today without first tackling the climate because it's kind of impossible to build true equality when the world you live in is dead. I also think the bearers wielding magic was analogous to certain technologies that we might use for manual labour today, and how they're dehumanised into being basically water fountains or heaters or things of that nature. I think the writing outside of the treatment of women (which sucks) is kinda surprisingly leftist, though that's not that surprising given some of the topics FF14 covers. It fucking sucks how even just studying gender is this big hot button issue today though, because I think if the writers at Square's studios could really benefit from it and produce better games.
right? on one hand the game gets so progressive, angrily revolutionary, pretty much anarcho-communist... and on the other hand you have the women being accessories garbage.
@@Zoeila ah yes, the devs with their project lead who also heads up 14 in which every update contains a love letter to another game in the series. those devs right?
About Benedikta, I thought it was implied sa right before she gets her powers back not actual sa? Not saying that makes it better, was just surprised by your interpretation
its both sa. putting ur intent like that into someones head is already a gross traumatic violation. imo emotionally, psychologically, and legally, that should be considered sa already.
I feel so stoopid! When I first beat the game, I slightly sad about this. I was very much crying for the rest of the day and part of it was because of this. And then I saw someone on Reddit say that Jill was probably pregnant and that’s why Clive died. I dead ass, did not even consider that they had sex, LIKE AT ALL. Hahahah
In another video I saw Lost Odyssey directly followed by Symphonia. Now your clip for Crystal Bearers is the beach game. I finally understand what I am thou, thou art I means.
Interesting look at FFXVI, thanks for sharing. A welcome breath of fresh air from people who go all in and say "IT'S PERFECT NO FLAWS" or "THE END OF FINAL FANTASY AS WE'VE KNOWN IT." I think you may benefit from not classifying this as an essay-type video, and maybe as something more "personal" or "casual," because regarding some of the character critiques of the game being too much of a "men doing stuff" story and the females taking more stereotypical roles, I found you returned to simply saying "I don't like x" a lot. Which is fine because this is just own video and own opinions, and I enjoyed the video just on its own merits. But just based on the presentation I was expecting something a bit more... well, essay-like exploring these things. I hope you don't think this is too harsh, it's just one thing I thought I'd bring up. Love your videos overall, keep it up :)
My wife and I had a running joke, playing through FF16: "And Jill was also there." So often she's just... on the sidelines during a sidequest cutscene, _maybe_ offering an extra word or two at the end but otherwise staying out of things completely. I understand the reason for it - she's not in your party consistently, so it's possible to do the sidequests without her presence, so rather than rewrite every scene to include her (while still maintaining the same outcome), they just included her as a last-line kind of thing. But it still emphasizes that she was an afterthought, not a main priority.
I thought LotR was a quintessential low fantasty. Magic is usually what defines fantasy. So Lord of the Rings which has like 5 semi-strong wizards is pretty tame in comparison to magical airships, continent-level magic, inter-plane politics, etc. I think in terms of Tabletop, Lord of the rings is considered a lvl1-4 campaign
I can't wait for a FF that shows the hero and love interest on opposite sides... Ff versus was the closest we got to it... I'm tired of the whole childhood friends thing to show they have a "connection". I want see them meet in person and show the development of love instead lol
Had to wait til now to watch this since i beat the game only a day or two ago. But as always your videos are awesome to watch and it was interesting hearing your thoughts on things, WIth the game of thrones vibes, i was already expecting a ton of tropes that would be used frequently. I think the only thing i did not agree with you with is how you felt about Clive removing magic , cause with all the negatives that come with it (specifically the curse and crystallization from over use ) it seems like it was best to remove it.
28:10 i think this comes from japanese developers trying to do "western fantasy storytelling". Like, "what do these american people do to make their stories dark? Oh yeah there is a lot of women being treated like shit i guess"
Exactly, that's why in 16 they did the same thing as "western fantasy storytelling" (they really have so many women like shit, they're misogynistic, there's no such thing as people with different skin color, etc.)
@@luizkorynga It's so sad that they didn't take a note from the Souls series or Elden Ring. Their worlds are very rooted in western fantasy but they did away with a lot of this stuff
@@caveirainvocada9438 I don't think Soulsborne wouldn't help much with the narrative (but with the world for sure), for them to be inspired by Game of Throne and other "SERIOUS Medieval Fantasies" was a real shot in the foot
Thor this may for real be one of your best videos! always love your perspective on games but here it feels like you really honed in on FFXVI thematically, like, it’s a fun but messy ass game and I love seeing people talk about it! thanks for sharing your takes (and your identity) with us! ❤
"Watching a video on a game I have 0 interest in cause one of my favorite youtubers made it" has become a shockingly large portion of my life these days.
Honestly I feel like you might be like under selling Benedikta as a character, like I know FatBrett actually has a very solid video discussing Benedikta as a character and she actually has a fair amount of depth and if you actually look at the scene with her and Barnabas she's actually very much trying to get him to connect with her throughout that scene and he just brushes her off and it's clear that she's desperate for validation from someone but she has a very particular view of loyalty that stopped her from just going along with Cid who would have been more then happy to give it and it's easy to just kind of overlook a lot of these details. Though you did acknowledge she's not a cardboard cutout and I think you're totally justified us having issues with how the threat of SA is used to kind of underline how vulnerable she is without her powers feels kinda shitty.
It makes her more nuanced, definitely, but it still exposes the same issue Thor brings up: Benedikta's validation is based on her sexual relationship with a man, which is a problem in a game where the female characters whose roles are not based on their worth to men are a definitive minority and the two most prominent female characters, Jill and Annabella, are very much defined by their relationships with men. If Benedikta was more or less alone in that fashion then it would be an interesting part of her character rather than par for the course.
@@rearedlogarithm Yeah but like... _why_ is that a problem? It's really not one. There are plenty of stories with predominantly female casts where the most prominent male characters are defined by their relationships to women, but I can't imagine you whining about that. You probably never even thought about it.
Personally i did not mind jill and clive having a good bone and her giving him her power. I think the game was fair about it in 2 ways. Jill was okay with it and it happened out of trust. So i think its a not very subtle way to address conscent. Jill was also still valued afterwards and the game showed her being petrified plenty early. So clive and her both got something out of it. Imo the game showed their relationship also as a partnership sufficiently well, and this was their literal and figurative climax
In the Japanese script Clive takes Shiva from Jill without her consent at first. Jill does not offer Shiva. Instead she talks about how she wants to help and protect him till the very end and that makes Clive realize that he needs to take Shiva from her or she`ll end up killing herself for him. So he starts taking Shiva, Jill does not want to at first, but she lets him do it in the end. I still think its fine overall, considering the complication of how the power of Shiva would end up killing Jill, but maybe some people would have issues with the consent part.
I genuinely love Clive as a protag. Even though I dislike the second half of the game. FF16 Is extremely quirky and I would love to see more of this world
Ok sorry, but i can't just not write this comment rn even though i haven't finished the video. Holy shit as an FE fan who kinda fell off after type-0's remake i only now understood though your video that i like FF due to the femboyness of it all and already became scared that FF might stop being so femboy and then you hit me witd XVI being good and i felt so fucking relieved. Glad that Square is making good games
I thought Benedicta would have benefited from her using sex to control or establish some form control over people... Using it as way to coerce Hugo into making a move or forcing herself on one of her soldiers who defied an order. Atleast it would have made the sexual assault and her losing her mind afterwards more rooted in her character. She's not only lost her power but her control mechanism has been turned on her.
To be fair, she does use her sexuality to push Hugo into doing something at the meeting between Waoled and Dhalmakia at the beginning of the game, he intervenes and announces his intention to crush the Crusaders after she mentions that he's yet to do something in this battle.
I can't know what the intention was. And while I agree that the female characters were either underdeveloped or sidelined, I don't know if the ugliness and misogyny was a reflection of the writer, or a conscious portrayal of an ugly and misogynistic world; events, tropes and all. But either way, it's unfortunate it's not addressed in the game. It's taken as the norm, and it's never or barely ever challenged. There's so much that could be said about imperialism, monarchy, authoritarianism, misogyny and nepotism. And save for a couple of side quests, not much is discussed on how the land should be governed or how the norms should be challenged. "It'll be hard to fix this", is the one answer we usually get. Which is sorta weird, since there are scenarios in FFXIV that are so on the nose in their intent of message, I couldn't believe what I saw. Straight up communist revolution against a tyrannical capitalist zealot, who lives in a raised town adorned with gold, throwing all their waste to the poor people below, who are barely scraping by in a shanty town built in the shadows cast by the *literal* upper class. And as I understand it, it's the same writer? Don't get me wrong though, there were plenty of moments that hit hard in FFXVI too. That whole Mythos - Logos-theme was really fresh for one. But it could've been so much more. I hope they revisit Valisthea in a future installment, because it holds so much untapped potential. Minor addendum: I loved the game. One of my most cherished gaming experiences this year.
Oh no. How dare Japanese devs not share your cringe California leftist obsessions. How terrible 😂 People are sick and tired of these boring Marxist messages. They're tropes worse than traditional tropes
I too am glad they acknowledged the Gex games. I may not have played the first game, but I most surely played the last two on PlayStation and Nintendo 64. I may have to pick this up and get more of my nostalgia tickled!
I didn't know that about you. Not to downplay the challenges you must've had, but that is cool. I just think it's cool when people are different. They have a wealth of knowledge and insight that normal people just won't have, that others can then learn from if we pay attention.
I'd be interested in hearing about your story. I don't think there is enough Intersex representation, or even awareness, out there. Also, supremely solid video, as usual. Your style is so chill and unique.
@@kuronoroux8864 Everyone has different levels of testosterone, progesterone, and estrogen. Even cis women can grow beards. I think more intesex awareness could help (but I doubt it) with the whole "there are only two genders: male and female" argument. 1 in around 2000-4500 are born intersex.
@@ChickpeaTwo I'm aware. But now a thing makes itself clear. It's the username HighHeels. I recall in an old video (or was it in a QnA in those pages like Ask Cat was it? Said it was an inside joke for him. I do know it's because it's the similar to Thor's surname, but in retrospective it's also... Very fitting with this new info. I'm intrigued Edit: CuriousCat was the place!
I did not like how they handled Jill at all. Her big moment where she was no longer scenery and instead had some agency and some good backstory ONLY happened because Clive and company needed to go smash another mother crystal and it just happens to be tied to her. Like, they could have had the whole thing be presented first and foreshadowed and establish it as something Jill wants to do before the literal quest to go smash the Crystal. This game does that constantly. And it drives me nuts because it feels like Clive's story and core narrative was written first. And then they decided to go back and bolt on some other character story/moments but didn't take the time to re-write it where it feels a bit more natural and includes actual foreshadowing and proper setup. Mid is another example. No setup, no foreshadowing really of her/her character or future importance. Hell, I honestly don't even remember her being mentioned by Cid. Then she just kind of appears in Hideout #2 as a Cid replacement. As if the writers said, "well, we just got rid of our best character. Now we need a substitute. Also, we barely have any important females that matter....soooooooooo, lets add Mid!" They could have shown her when she was young. Cid and her working on projects and show her drive and determination. Something that would make her a "real" character to me rather than bolted on...which is how I also feel about Jill. The game and it's characters were so close to being excellent. It had all the parts and pieces. They just didn't spend the time/money to make sure the story really gelled and not only made sense (FF games sometimes struggle with that) but also had proper setup and character development.
It really brightened my day to your take about this as someone who has always also liked that particular thing about men in FF for pretty much the same reason 💛💜
