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Finally! Good news for musicians on Microsoft Windows! 

Jürgen Moßgraber
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We got some updates this week about what is happening and when to expect MIDI 2.0 as well as support for audio drivers on Windows 11 ARM machines!
Blog Posts from Pete Brown:
devblogs.micro...
devblogs.micro...
0:00 Introduction0:30 MIDI 2.0 - What & When?3:34 Audio/MIDI support on Windows 11 with ARM processors

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30 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 77   
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
Thanks for the video recap. :) The delay in getting the new MIDI Services into Windows isn't Arm, it's the backwards compatibility (WinMM, primarily) and all the testing around that. It's taking us a while to make sure we don't break anything. We'd definitely like people to try out the Insider builds, especially because there are SO many MIDI interfaces and devices out there. For Arm64 audio interface drivers - I had the date incorrect for Steinberg. Steinberg has released their native drivers for Arm64 in preview this week alongside Cubase and Nuendo. We used a preview of it with the IXO22 at Snapdragon Summit - Focusrite is coming very soon. Pete Brown Microsoft
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 4 дня назад
Thanks for the clarifications, Pete! Highly appreciated!
@0richbike
@0richbike 8 дней назад
Cool. Now they just need to update the audio subsystem...from winxp ;-)
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
😂
@soundbeee
@soundbeee 7 дней назад
No WASAPI fans? 😅
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 7 дней назад
@@soundbeee Only Wasabi 😂
@0richbike
@0richbike 7 дней назад
You beat me to it ;-)​@@mossgraber
@teknastyk
@teknastyk 5 дней назад
good luck waiting another decade. or two.. its been like this since i know of myself. :D
@christianwn
@christianwn 7 дней назад
Lets all put pressure on plugin developers. We want clap format plugins on linux. To be forced to use windows or mac for music creation is rotten.
@teknastyk
@teknastyk 5 дней назад
there was a mod you could do to use VST on linux. did involve quite some fiddling with the os.
@christianwn
@christianwn 5 дней назад
@@teknastyk They are called LinVST, Yabridge and Carla. All can run windows plugins. But in all honestly after years of testing they simply can not replace native windows. I could write a book about all the problems.
@kumble2687
@kumble2687 8 дней назад
If the latency for live performance will skyrocket( meaning staying low and using cpu intensive plugins etc) i think this might finally be a viable option! Windows had alot that Mac doesnt and Mac had alot that Windows doesnt have, so its good to see those boundaries melt away ❤
@boydpukalo8980
@boydpukalo8980 5 дней назад
Nice to see Windows on Arm getting some love. It has been the red headed stepchild of Microsoft's for years-supposedly the next big thing, but clearly a second rate citizen by Microsoft themselves. Once again MS sending mixed messages to developers/consumers. Didnt help up until X Elite came out they were peddling gussied up smartphone chipsets stuffed into laptop form factor for a premium price point.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
0:00 Introduction 0:30 MIDI 2.0 - What & When? 3:34 Audio/MIDI support on Windows 11 with ARM processors
@Emily_M81
@Emily_M81 8 дней назад
thanks for sharing I'm not touching these ARM laptops with their damned AI "memory" crap nope nope
@joesalyers
@joesalyers 7 дней назад
Linux went through this and one of the things many of the developers said was ARM requires a complete rewrite of the audio sublayer. Linux then made Pipewire for x86 & ARM at the same time which is nice (basically a clone of Mac Core Audio with Linux specific features) Windows will end up with some janky ASIO over translation instead of just building a unified audio system. I think it will be 2027 before you see any major brands build drivers for Windows on ARM that is native to the system since it will be up to the companies (not microsoft) on how to build it and that is a ton of R&D costs and most likely it will run on translation in a wrapper not natively.
@furiobisotti8150
@furiobisotti8150 7 дней назад
RU-vid algorhythm suggested me this vid, very good news! Playing VSTs live on a notebook I had to switch to the dark side of the Force (you khow who...) but I would be happy to get back to Windows. If it will be competitive: these are nice steps, but a multiclient audio engine is mandatory! With my current M1 macbookpro, I can play on my midi controller, mix my VSTs layers and listen to music at the same time without any issue. It's the perfect environment for a rock cover band keyboard player... And I use same laptop to record a small orchestra, play live and produce music on dozen of tracks on my DAW.
@garethde-witt6433
@garethde-witt6433 7 дней назад
If win 11 wasn’t so intrusive I would be upgrading but probably won’t
@blackout2able
@blackout2able 8 дней назад
Thx Jurgy ❤
@Artek604
@Artek604 8 дней назад
Thanks for the heads-up! BTW, any plans on supporting Move in Bitwig and/or Reaper?
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
Not really.
@homebrewinstrumentals7700
@homebrewinstrumentals7700 8 дней назад
​@@mossgraberthat's a shame, they are the two greatest DAW's!
@r0tekz
@r0tekz 8 дней назад
Multi-client MIDI drivers will be a godsend for hardware that uses librarian/editor software. I have spent too much money to work around the issue. But will DAW's still only be able to address one ASIO audio driver? I seem to remember no limitation on Apple. But on Windows, you pick one. So no mix & match of interfaces, unless they have the same driver.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
I am afraid we are still stuck with one-client ASIO. I guess that was the low-hanging fruit for Microsoft to go this route. But I still hope they will come up with something new in the not too far future...
@teknastyk
@teknastyk 5 дней назад
thats a windows limitation. and manufacturers are so proud of it none of them said shht for like 15years.... not even roland or akai ...
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
@@teknastyk It's not really a limitation of Windows in this case, it's just what apps decide to do with ASIO. You can address multiple devices using ASIO4All, for example. Of course, just like on macOS, keeping timing locked and avoiding drift can be a little challenging. We're looking into it, but primary focus for this release with the ASIO driver is to unblock Arm64 devices.
@MichaelDC4234-ie3fr
@MichaelDC4234-ie3fr 6 дней назад
ARM seems like the way to go. But, Apple Silicon has shown that some hardware are incompatible, like GPUs and there will be need for ARM based drivers for existing devices to work. I think that's where the challenge lies. It will be interesting to see deskops with PCIe. Will PCIe cards be supported natively?
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 6 дней назад
Yes, drivers are the big question. We need to wait and see...
@cl1xor
@cl1xor 7 дней назад
The big question for me if midi 2.0 on will get rid of our midi jitter issues once and for all (especially on usb midi)
@zachgormley1952
@zachgormley1952 5 дней назад
iConnectivity MIO XL ethernet
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
MIDI jitter is overstated by many. I've measured it. Just sending a single MIDI 1.0 note on message takes almost 1ms because of the speed of MIDI 1.0 (31,250bps). It's a serial protocol with 16 channels per cable/device, so you could end up with 15+ms delay if you manage to hit all channels at once. And that's assuming no pitch bend, aftertouch, or other messages happening at the same time. MIDI 2.0 doesn't have this speed limitation.
@ultratot
@ultratot 8 дней назад
Thanks as always. For the ARM drivers, is it going to be a similar situation to Apple M1 where each plugin developer has to update their plugin backend to support and take advantage of the architecture? Or is the update handled only at the driver and DAW levels?
@vandorb12
@vandorb12 8 дней назад
For best performance, it's best to not rely on the translation layer that's required to get native x86/64 apps to work on ARM. As noted in the video, at least for device drivers, device makers will have to make an ARM driver. For VST and AAX plugins, you MIGHT be able to use the translation layer, but performance will tank. To sum up, basically we probably have another M1 situation.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
No. Plugins talk only to the DAW not to MIDI drivers (with some rare exceptions which e.g. control a specific hardware). The Intel-emulation layer also takes care of emulating the plugins (there is a link to another blog article of Pete in the linked one which talks in detail about this). To sum up: plugins should run fine out of the box. And in the best case developers only need to recompile their plugins.
@ArguZ72
@ArguZ72 7 дней назад
Great ! Only took 20 years to figure out what Apple does better
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 7 дней назад
🤣 ... and still not there!
@irishmossdubwise
@irishmossdubwise 8 дней назад
I always had good luck moss. The past few updates, I open the app and it does nothing. Catalina os. It's bumming me out.
@bonno666
@bonno666 8 дней назад
This is good news if it does not render all older equipement and all 64 bit drivers unuseable and obsolete. Musicians hate big changes.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
The new MIDI framework ensures this! Intel audio drivers are obsolete but with this upcoming USB class compliant driver for ARM a lot/most of the old interfaces will continue to work even if the manufacturers do not provide any updates.
@bonno666
@bonno666 6 дней назад
@@mossgraber What about firewire audio interfaces ? There are a lot of them around too ? Obsolete, for the landfill ?
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 6 дней назад
@@bonno666 Since Firewire was never a big thing on Windows, I do not expect anything for this.
@fabianrr
@fabianrr 6 дней назад
Only on ARM :(
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 6 дней назад
The new MIDI framework will be on Intel as well. Not sure about the USB driver.
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 3 дня назад
@@mossgraber MIDI 2.0 USB Driver and the rest of the stack show up on both x86-64 (64-bit Intel/AMD) and Arm64 at the same time. The new UAC2 driver + ASIO interface will be on Arm64 first, and follow shortly after with the Intel/AMD version.
@indigoskywalker
@indigoskywalker 8 дней назад
who would develop midi drivers in c#? surely c++ is king
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
Not the drivers. The apps that use the drivers via the new API.
@TheThoughtCatalog
@TheThoughtCatalog 8 дней назад
@@mossgraber Ooooooo, if its a new API I bet it'll be easier to dev that for use in Rust!! :D
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
@@TheThoughtCatalog I guess you can access it in many languages. One way or the other...
@indigoskywalker
@indigoskywalker 7 дней назад
@@mossgraber aha
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
@@TheThoughtCatalog Yes. I haven't created a specific crate for it, but the rust support for WinRT projections should help make this much easier. Currently we ship projections for C++ and C#. I've messed a bit with projection support for Electron/Node, but it's a massive pain. Rust should be much easier.
@pcfirebeats
@pcfirebeats 8 дней назад
Microsoft is so slow when compared to Linux in adding this stuff.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
Yeah, it is a big ship...
@bonno666
@bonno666 7 дней назад
It has to work with a lot of different hardware. I think midi is amazing because it is mostly unchanged since 1985.
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
The ALSA folks are with us in the MIDI Association, and one reason I insisted on doing this as OSS to begin with was to make sure they could see how we're implementing things. We could be faster, but I don't think we've been particularly slow here. It's just that folks have been able to watch the progress from Day 1, which makes it seem slow, because we almost never do things that way in Windows.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 4 дня назад
@@Psychlist1972 Please keep it open!
@disklamer
@disklamer 5 дней назад
Best of all Windows now sends screenshots of all your work to Redmond so they can sell your music for you, without even having to ask!
@christianwn
@christianwn 7 дней назад
ARM is a rotten platform so is INTEL. A Virus synth had 100MHz processor and could function as 16 synths at the same time. My 12 core 1.8GHz cpu can mange that with a few extra plugins, I use Dune 3 and it is super optimized. 1 core 100MHz vs 12 core 1.8GHz, let that sink in... What is wrong with computer systems today? We been fooled all the way. An upgraded 2 core Amiga could beat any pc or mac out there today.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 7 дней назад
Good luck with that 🙂 Just open the process explorer after starting your system (on any platform) and you might get an idea where the performance is actually going...
@christianwn
@christianwn 7 дней назад
@@mossgraber Off course I do know this :-) But still we should be able to do so much more. I even run a light weight version of windows with extra few background processes. Even special versions of linux. Does not matter at all. I even mix on the dsp on my RME to offload even that. I can not run 16 synths on each core. It is the whole pc from hardware to software, that is so ineffective it is a big joke, just to sell us crap. Did you ever try QNX when it came out, with a browser and xwidows on 1 floppy drive... That was cool.
@SproutyPottedPlant
@SproutyPottedPlant 6 дней назад
Acorn RISC PC
@kypresso4328
@kypresso4328 7 дней назад
So i guess nothing will be done for win 10 now. There's no way in hell i'm going to win 11. New mac minis coming next month with the M4 chip so i'll replace the original m1 i bought and abandon windows forever.
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 7 дней назад
Pete Brown mentioned several times that the new MIDI framework will be available for Windows 10 as well. But I doubt if this will hold up after the Windows 10 deprecation.
@Psychlist1972
@Psychlist1972 4 дня назад
The new MIDI stack will ship to the latest support Windows 10.
@teknastyk
@teknastyk 5 дней назад
meeeh windoz... i stopped using those. a synth should be a synth. a soundcard should be a soundcard. a midi controler is a midi controler. audio needs to go thru audio cables and not bs HDMIs and usbs... and windows should stop treating every device you hook up to it as a friggin soundcard . Everything else is just gaslighting yourself. Theres a reason good old hardware has its price. It just works. no drivers no bs updates to use functionality no subscriptions no bs. Simple. Thats why teenage engineering gear sells like hot cookies. Thats why people still buy behringer stuff - even if build quality used to be like shht (speaking of their mixer which i had)... Windows??? Yea i dont need that to make music. I was a happy camper on linux and some early ver of Bitwig. Worked like a charm back then. Never looked back.
@BrunodeSouzaLino
@BrunodeSouzaLino 8 дней назад
With Recall being mandatory, you're gonna get your music stolen by AI anyways.
@lib747
@lib747 8 дней назад
If that isn't enough for people to switch to Linux, what will it take?
@mossgraber
@mossgraber 8 дней назад
Don't know who came up with this glorious idea. Luckily, they dumped it straight away. If this becomes mandatory in any way I am off...
@firestormjupiter
@firestormjupiter 8 дней назад
The current deal is that it’s mandatorily installed on copilot+ pcs. You’re given the “option” to disable it, how much of an option this is depends on how much you trust microsoft, but a lot of people don’t seem to.
@BrunodeSouzaLino
@BrunodeSouzaLino 7 дней назад
@@mossgraber This is not a "if" scenario anymore. You can no longer disable or remove Recall since update 24H2.
@christianwn
@christianwn 7 дней назад
@@BrunodeSouzaLino They did not use all this money to develop these new systems not to use them...
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