Five Things You Didn't Know About F-104 Starfighter 

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The engine, J-79, has an electronic fuel control. It was designed by John R boykin, my father. @ the test cell on 1"st run up, the test manager reached over to the control console and jammed the throttle to full AB. a dangerous move for an untested engine. It worked perfectly.

I still have the article somewhere, a Canadian 104 pilot wrote that the control surfaces were so enemic that at low air speeds the gyroscopic effects of the engine would kick in. So if the piolt got close to stall, pushing the stick forward caused the aircraft to yaw right. Loads of fun at 140Kts and 200 feet above ground

A friend of mine flew F-106's. He said they often held exercises with F-104 squadron's since the F-104 had a similar look and flight characteristics of the Mig-21. He was pretty proud of the F-106 and said it could do everything better than the F-104 except in acceleration.

Another great and informative video! In the early 1960's my father and our family were stationed at an American air base in West Germany. Our base was operating F-100, F-101 and F-102 aircraft but West German F-104's were often seen in the sky and would occasionally visit our base.

Thanks for highlighting a huge flaw in the arguments against the Starfighter - that it's contemporaries also incurred very sizeable losses. While the RCAF/Air Commands lost about half of its CF-104 Starfighters from 1962 to 1987, over 300 CL-Sabres were lost between 1950-61, almost half. Yet that's 25 years for the Starfighter in flying low-level missions and 12 years for the Sabre in flying much higher missions.

Another eason why so many german Starfighters crashed: it was parked outside of hangars, night and day, no matter the weather. THe Luftwaffe used it as an all weather interceptor. Turned out the avionics were vulnerable to weather conditions, causing many malfunctions.

7:28 These are belgian F-84F's ! We also used F-104G's later with a record low loss rate for the EU fleet ! Explanations i got from a former Starfighter pilot was that german pilots were more used to flying their jets "by the guts" like F-86/CL-13 (high perfs, but flyable "by guts") He said to me that the best way to crash a F-104 was to believe "your guts" and your senses ! Apparently the plane was very good at desorienting pilots and belgian pilots never flown such high performance jets before trusted what Lockheed said to them ; "fly by instruments and stay at any times within limits and do not trust your senses" ! In BAF, pilots were used to Vampires, Hunters (at best) and trained on Fouga Magister, they were not used to high perfs such as germans were used to. They massively respected the plane and performed crazy stunts in them ! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jyBDEG9dg-Q.html

Fun fact. The F104's wings were so sharp, their trailing edges were covered with plastic protective strips when the aircraft were parked, to avoid injuring the technical crews.

An interesting somewhat debunking of the widowmaker myth. I wasn't aware of the Luftwaffee F84 issues but similar factor with the 104 there... and while famed ace Erich Hartman was a well known critic of the type, Johannes Steinhoff led a series of training reform which made a huge difference.

Thank you. I was a tank commander in Germany in the early 1980's. On a large NATO maneuver, I saw two Bundesluft 105's streak past at a fairly low level, in a snow covered valley like your simulation shows. I was always challenged about the sighting, as I was told they were out of German service by then. This was well before 1987, Reagan was in charge and all the toys came out for REFORGER.

The U.S. government stopped buying the F-104, so Lockheed went around the world bribing foreign governments to buy it, and yes, it crashed all over the planet from Canada to Germany and we passed laws that business's can't bribe foreign governments. And the F-104 was in an original episode of Star Trek.

Quite possibly the most beautiful combat jet to take wing. (Honourable mention to the F-5)

#7: Canada chose the Starfighter over Republic's F-105 Thunderchief (among others) for its NATO nuclear strike/rcce roles in Europe from 1964 to 1972. USAF-supplied and managed B28, B43 and B57 nuclear gravity bombs were assigned to Canadian squadrons. 104 squadrons converted to conventional ground attack in 1972 following the Government's decision to step out of the nuclear weapons arena. The type was retired in 1986, 24 years after entering service. 200 CF-104's were built by Canadair for RCAF service, along with 38 dual-place F-104D's from Lockheed.

There could never be enough F-104 content

I'm so proud, and glad to see you growing, and continuing to produce great content. Look at you, with sponsorship, and whatnot. Well-deserved accolades, keep up the great work. Signed -- A loyal, and ardent fan.

I loved the Starfighter every since I first saw it .

Number 1 is basically the literally "when you come for the King, you best not miss."

Saw an old F-104 at an amusement park! Had no wheels so I was able to look straight into the cockpit. Up close the F-104 is a very sexy bird, literally a waistline on her. This example was so stripped and neglected I actually felt sad to see a proud warrior so forgotten. Gave her pets and spoke to her. Weird, I know, but it somehow felt important to do.

Luftwaffe joke: How do you get an F-104? Buy a field and wait...

Number 6: the F-104 wide chord wings blocked air over the T-tail elevators at high angles of attack, inducing a fatal longitudinal instability which is believed the main contributor to accidents by inexperienced pilots.

I still think it's crazy that the F-104 was in service with Italy up until 2014

No mention of Yeager and the rocket assisted F-104?

Cool, I am going to make a Fleet of CAS out of 'em with Downward Firing Ejection Ports.

At brake release the aircraft would reach over 60mph….with the engine at idle.

I love the Starfighter."Sternenjäger". 💕

I used to live under one of the SFO flight paths. One day, out in my driveway, I heard something overhead that didn’t sound like most. Looked up, saw a F104 southbound. I moved from there in 2006, so it was before then. I also loved seeing the one at the Air and Space Museum in a Washington, D.C. Without wingtip tanks it was even more wicked than the ones with greater range.

"Lawn Dart" Best derogatory nickname for a plane ever.😁

We used to have saying that if you wanted CF104, just buy an acre of Germany and wait. Using a 104 for ground support was ideotic, it had the aerodynamics of a grand piano.

Look forward to you vids weekly, thanks for taking the time to do these great scenarios. As usual, another interesting lesson!

I've seen a few publicity photos from the late 1950s depicting a Starfighter parked next to a brand new automobile of the era. To me, these photos are actually pretty jarring - these gleaming planes look so sleek and advanced compared to those stodgy old car designs that it's like a visitor from a future world wound up landing on Earth through some kind of wormhole. Always considered the F104s to be among the most beautiful aircraft ever produced. Touchy to pilot, no doubt, but given the years they were made and the lack of computerized stability systems I have to greatly admire both the aircraft and the men who mastered them. Awesome!

The comments about the limited space used by the Vulcan Gatling gun were true because it was originally designed without guns, just rockets. My late father-in-law was in AF R+D on the Straighter project, and a highly experienced combat fighter pilot. He went for an early inspection and asked where the guns fit. He was told there would be no need for guns in the future, just missills/rockets. He told them to take the advice of an old fighter pilot, all fighters will at some time need guns. This led to the first Gatling gun and first infra red sight on a plane. At least this is how I recall his story.

That little Jordanian setup against king Hussein reminds me of the several South Vietnamese F-5 pilot defectors who bombed the presidential palace during the war.

I Served as mechanik in the german air force from 1983 till 1987. I Was trained to serve this weapon system and trained severel guys euch year. My opinion is, The german air force made the mistake not to use this great aircraft as it was constructed for, as an interceptor. I am proud of that time and it was an great airplane, dificult to fly, but the pilots loved it to. Sorry my english is a litlte bit corroded after this long time.

On the operating end, the F104 was "purdy fast: when you pull out, don't bother looking behind you 'cuz nothing's going to catch you." Instructor pilot.

Great video! The Greek Air force operated the F-104G with relative low losses for 29 years. The pilots that flew this plane adore it to this day.

The Starfighter stall suddenly and at high velocity specially while heavy, just after take off…and it is where most the engine failures do occur, since if the engine ran 5 minutes near full power, it will go on for 2 hours more..This was forcing pilots to stay well above a critical low speed, to react and eject fast while flying low was an additional risk because deceleration without power was there extremely rapide with no room for descending…During many years, the old Lufthansa pilots, the “Luftwaffe F104 survivors” were famous for their fast power landing of the numerous B737 of the fleet, obsessed by the need of a speed safety blanket on their old F104 incredible missiles…the mid wing mono-block design and streamlined flap with very small salmons are truly remarquable and speed and climbing performance unmatched at the time. The J79 noise was just as awful as the black trail behind..

Thanks again for great informative content,the Lightening was nicknamed the "Frightening" for it's outstanding acceleration and climb rate 👍🙃

I thought F-4 Phantom was the only Vietnam War era aircraft participating and n Desert Storm. Didn’t know that F-104 had a hand in it too. Learnt something today!

Your accuracy in makin' these videos is incredibile man! Keep 'em coming! :)

Kao uvijek, prvoklasno. Best regards from Split

#6. The Italians took the F104G, and turned it into a true interceptor with all-weather AAW capability, over 3,000lbs more of thrust, look-down/shoot-down radar, modern ESM, and INS - the F104S. That was the real "SUPER STARFIGHTER">

Great presentation. Most interesting and informative. Keep up the good work.

The 104, like any thoroughbred, is amazing in skilled hands and dangerous to those that don't full understand. My father worked on the powerplants for these magnificent planes. I was personal friends with the US Airforce Coronel that wrote the requirements that led to the F104. He said that when Kelly Johnson took him in to the see the plane for the first time he thought it was the most beautiful aircraft he had ever seen.

Another great video, only miss the data about italian F 104 as the italian air force use them for the longest operative period.

Great video! I really like the cut-in of real footage, made me look twice. 😁👍🏻👏🏻💪🏻🍻🙋🏼‍♂️

I think they had not installed fare dispenser because of t shaped tail . Since air flow may be turblent while the aircraft was turning and flares may flow in wave ward direction.

My father worked on the type for years with the RCAF. Bad joke of the day..."Q) How do you get a 104 of your very own? A) Buy a piece of land in Germany!" Probably not fair, all things considered.

Thanks . I never knew anything about the starfighter.

excellent graphics... 6:54...such as the planes shadow as it went past the sun...

The Luftwaffe had commissioned and enlisted pilots flying the F-104. Officers could preflight the plane, squawk it, and walk back to the ready room. Enlisted pilots did not have that option, they had to fly. Mechanics were overwhelmed with an unfamiliar airplane. It didn't help that the wing leading edge was as sharp as a knife. The F-104 was a dream to fly supersonic, not so much at landing speeds. This was the first airplane whose speed in a climb was equal to the speed in level flight. That changed the rules of engagement. There was no longer an advantage to being above the target in air combat.

How useful would a NEW F-104Z be today with canards, smokeless turbofan engine with thrust vectoring, AESA radar, BVR AAMs saw AIM-120s and a RECOVERY PARACHUTE to bring the whole thing down when it starts acting like a lawn dart...that operates from Short Ramp Take-Off (SRATO) trailers mobile & dispersed like the Swedish BAS90 system?

The Spanish Air Force flew the F104G from 1965 to 1972 for a total of 12.000 flight hours without a hitch. Maybe the German pilots were not as good as they believed themselves to be.

Excellently informative.

One of the best kept secrets about the plane, was that took on the Starship USS Enterprise. 😉

A good one, I see it's doing rather well in the number of views!

Thank you for your videos. Aslo waiting for something with newly released Mirage F1, should be interesting to see what sortie you choose.

Outstanding episode - bravo..

Congratulation! It was a great video. You can start a new series "Things you didn't know about"

I think most people really underestimate how many warplanes are lost as a result of accidents compared to combat. Makes me think that a newly manufactured, yet old-design, plane with all the bugs worked out would be better for most nations than a state-of-the-art plane that possesses several unknown flaws and dangers -- especially when monetary costs as well as lives are considered.

Personally, I’d rather have the F-106, but an F-104 would be pretty cool as well. I’d like the F-106 because it’s got a limited range with its AIM-4 missiles, but it was an absolutely ridiculous gunfighter. It would be very interesting to fly I think.

Also known as the “tent peg” by the German pilots. Still my favorite fighter and another Kelly Johnson beauty.

Very good and very interesting. No mention of the bribery scandal?

love your videos, and i REALLY love the f104! but i still managed to learn new things :)

I was stationed with the US Air Force in the late '60"s when the German Luftwafe flew the F-104's. It was a common joke that the entire fleet of the jets were grounded Again because another one had gone down without explanation. The joke was that somewhere in the cockpit a warning light came on and the pilot immediately ejected without trying to learn the reason! It seems the aircraft with those stubby wings had all the glide characteristics of a lead shotput so the pilots took no chances of going down with the ship! That's for the navy!

Totally awesome vid.. One small thing though, in the part about the dutch ones, you show the wrong ones.. The ones you show have all got tail emblems of the 306 TFRS.. One might have been there, but all six?

For No. 2 story, it would be better if you mention in the narative "...Dutch East Indies or known as Indonesia now..." Thank you 🙏🏻

I'm quite surprised Italian Air Force wasn't mentioned. It's true that the version produced in higher numbers is the G that was from Germany that led that development, but that was actually an international thing, also Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, Italy and others joined the production and adoption of the "G", the Dutch manufacturer Fokker produced more "G"s than the German MBB and Messerschmitt combined. And including all the following versions even more 104s were built in Italy by FIAT(Aeritalia), more than anyone else except Lockeed. Italian Air Force also had 104s in active service untill the first half of the 2000s. It's no coincidence that among the few still flying for private entities there are ex-Italian 104s and also among the pilots of these private businesses at least 1 is a former Italian Air Force Pilot, they were most likely the last pilots qualifying for the 104. The F-104S was the last main version to be introduced and it was developed and produced entirely by FIAT and adopted mainly by Italian airforce (205 planes) and a small number was sold to Turkey (40 planes). The even more recent subversions S-ASA(1986) and S-ASA-M(1997) entered service while many of the other operators were already phasing out their fleets of 104s

In West Germany during the cold war there was a saying - If you want your very own Starfighter, stand in a field and wait.

Check out the movie Blue Tornado with Dirk Benedict from BSG as an F-104 pilot at an Italian airbase.

One of the best looking fighter, in my opinion

Pilots these days are lucky to be flight simulator trainers, in the old days in 1940-90s, you learn by on the job training, training is important to understand your weapon systems, I heard even the North Vietnamese Army Air force was suffering lose with the MIG 21 during the Vietnam war too.

Well done . You mention the Moluccan crisis in the Netherlands in 1977. By the way you got it wrong. Indonesia wrongfully annected the Moluccas and the western part of New Guinea.

Starfighter was no worse than any other combat aircraft of that type and era. It was simply a pure interceptor which was pressed into roles what it shouldn't be into.

USAF needs long range Interdictor, Attack Weapon Platforms and Fighters. Wasn't any need for a short-Range Interceptor over US Territory. But over Europe? Yes !

Thanks

Yup, the Hungarian 21s would deserve a video on their own! Great video, thorough research, thanks for making them!

I remember reading the moment Dan Hampton engaged the F-104, was pretty tense reading until it was revealed it was a crazy Turkish pilot 😅

Catch a falling Starfighter, you can put it in your pocket and use it as a cigarette lighter.

A major cause of the Luftwaffe losses with the F-104 was that it was designed as an air to air interceptor, but was reconfigured to be a close air support plane, something it was not designed for. Also Luftwaffe training was constrained by strict limitations in the crowded European airspace, which was a major reason that they transferred their advance training base to the US.

The sound of them 😩

When they said "Experienced pilots only", they meant it.

The video is very nice, I really liked it, but there's something wrong. At the very start, at 0:14 you said "It saw mostly service with the German 'Luftwaffe'". It did indeed see intensive service with the Luftwaffe, but its greatest user wasn't actually Germany, but Italy. It didn't have as many, but the service time was almost 1.5 times longer (40 years), starting from 1964. Soon after, in 1966, the Italian Air Force was looking for new planes to put into service (and two of the most likely choices were the F-4F or the F-4E), but Lockeed instead proposed a modified version of the F-104G, to stay in par with the times. Italy accepted, especially due to the cost reduction compared to buying new airframes. It was called F-104S, where the S stands for 'Sparrow'. It had some avionic and aerodynamic improvements, but the most important feature was, as you might guess, the ability to carry AIM-7E 'Sparrows' (the first variant, not the E-2). But this came with a price: due to the small F-104 fuselage, in order to use them, the 20mm 'Vulcan' gattling cannon had to be removed, to make up space for the guidance system (For this reason the F-104S's fuselage was also redesigned a bit mechanically to be easier to access to, to switch easily Cannon and guidance system). Due to space reasons though, it didn't feature countermeasures. 20 yeara later, in 1986, as the times were changing and technology was evolving, Italy decided to upgrade its outdated F-104Ss (While the Eurofighter project was a few years into development), wich ultimately resulted in the F-104S-ASA (ASA stands for 'Aggiornamenti Sistemi d'Arma', or 'Weapons Systems Update' in English). It featured enhanced aerodynamics, a modified engine, a completely new radar set with MTI mode, new missiles (AIM-9Ls, all-aspect IR missiles, along with the old AIM-7s), a new RWR system (It couldn't tell the direction of radar signatures, so only sound was present, but it featured a ECM jammer, wich would make it very tough to lock together with the already low radar cross-section of the F-104). Countermeasures were also added. Like it's predecessor though, SARH missiles couldn't be paired with the Vulcan, but was much less of a problem. An F-104S-ASA-2 was made an year or 2 later, to feature the new Aspidi-1A missiles,, enhanced AIM-7s with 35G of max overload, max speed of Mach 5 and a new guidance system. About a decade later, in 1994, another modification was ordered, the F-104S-ASA-M (where the M stand for 'Modificato', or 'Modified' in English). Avionics was better, especially navigation avionic; the RWR/Jammer was removed in favor of a standard RWR; a new HUD was featured (the old one would only indicate the roll of the aircraft compared to the horizon and the range to a locked target with a little bar, but only from 2kms away, working essentially like a range-finder for the gun); 2 MFDs were also introduced. The cannon space problem didn't exist anymore, but the ITAF still decided to not put as it had completely transitioned to an aerial interceptor. Other upgrades were made, like the enhanced hydraulic and electric systems, but most of them were only done to make the aircraft more survivable due to it's dangerous landing characteristichs. Ultimately, it saw official retirement in 2004 (but in 2003 it already was barely used as F-16ADFs were delivered in leasing while waiting for the Eurofighter, wich entered production and service in the following year). Next year the F-104 will fly again for the 100th anniversary of the Italian Air Force. Fun fact n.6: In its last decade of service, the Italians gave it the name of "Il lamento del contribuente" ("The tax-payer's lament", due to the controversies caused by the remaining in service for so long of what was an heavily outdated plane, with expensive maintenance and a great kill-count among pilots due to accidents, especially in the landing sequence).

The German AF and MARINEFLEIGER both flew the F-104 STAR FIGHTER. the MARINEFLEIGER retired all of it's tornadoes btw too .

J 79 with wings. What else?

Also flown by the commando unit "Blackhawk" in the 1950s and 60s comic books.

Glad you covered the last point... the 104 really does have an undeservedly bad reputation and so much of it is based on media hype to sell newspapers. Low flying hours (Hungarian AF in the 90s, like many former Warsaw Pact air forces), engine issues (earlier 104s and the Su-9, along with high landing speeds for the latter), or use in low-level roles in often bad weather can all drive up loss rates regardless of an airframe's qualities or lack thereof, or its original design purpose (air superiority fighter, in the 104's case).

Thanks!

I was in the army reserve 1980 and sent to base Lahr as an augmentee for NATO Reforger Exercise. For four months and two weeks we were barracked about 400 yards from the 104 engine test cell. They ran that test cell 24/7/365. I don't know how we slept. All of us constantly in a state sleep deprivation. Must be like trying to sleep at Cape Canaveral 1970s. The only recourse was in the field bouncing around in our M113 carrier. Fun yet also stupid times.

I hate to say this, but bring back the Thud! It was faster than the F-4 Phantom at low level, and was flown by the USAF Thunderbirds for a year. Ugly is beautiful! I'd pick a Thud partially over some newer jet fighters.

Why does the F-104 starfighter make that howling sound?

Awesome loved it

Great video, thank you! These jets were in a really bad 1964 film called, The Starfighters. Its so bad its an MST3K episode. Starring a future congressman, "B-1" Bob Dornan.

My father worked as ground crew (radio engineer) on german starfighters that carried US nuclear warheads. Scary times.

The last one was interesting research statistics 🤔

Brilliant video!

Great editing…..

The Ace of Aces, Eric Hartmann, had joined the West German Luftwaffe in 1955 after his release from Soviet captivity as a POW. In 1960 he was sent to America to evaluate the F 104. He reported it was an unstable aircraft and would be problematic. He wanted other aircraft's be considered. His objections were overlooked. The result was a high number of F 104 crashes, and and a number of pilot deaths. Notice, you will not find F 104 being operated by any air force nowadays. But three contemporaries, the Soviet MiG 21, the French Mirage and the Swedish Draken, are still in service with some air forces.

I remember reading somewhere that the planes going to Germany were a bit different from the original design. This was Germany's request, and obviously altered the planes performance, thereby accidents happened. Anyone know about this and can maybe clarify??. I'd like to know if this is misinformation.

When I was in Germany- 74-77, I would often be driving on a road in the mountains and look out my window and see a West German 104 flying at the same level (which was not allowed to the US Air Farce \