@@swright5690 That was, however, not the reason. With a G-limit of 5 G with tiptanks and 6,5 without them and a wingloading like shit it was a necessity and one way of making the most out of the planes superior speed capability and thrust to weight ratio
I started working inside the bicycle industry in the early 80s first going to Japan then Taiwan and later China. Back in the early 90s there was a great airplane museum just 1/4 mile from the CKS international airport in Taiwan. Being an airplane nut one day I booked a whole day to check it out. WOW, I was blown away by how detailed and magnificent all their displays were made. One of the displays was about this very incident of the 104 Starfighters VS the Migs in the Taiwan straights. Only till today do I see a simulation of this aerial battle on your great RU-vid video. I worked inside a major Taiwan bicycle tire division, and one of the tire engineers was an ex F-104 technician in the 60s & 70s. He serviced two of the very F-104s that were involved in that incident over the Taiwan straights. One year I went to a Taiwan trade show just when China fired several missiles over Taiwan and hardly anyone showed up.
Thank you for sharing that experience. Funny how similar things are happening these days too, with PRC probing Taiwanese air defense. You have to admit the Taiwanese are quite brave, living under a constant threat like that.
Thanks for making this video, it's awesome! This battle is called the 113 air battle in Taiwan, which means that it was an air battle that took place on January 13th. At that time, two F-104G(No.4344 and No.4347) of the Republic of China Air Force used AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles to shoot down two PRCAF J-6 instead of cannons, but one F-104G (No. 4353) were crash in the the sea because of spatial disorientation.
@@showtime112 honestly, when I see cannon shoot down Mig, this is the first thing came into my mind. This is not historical accurate. But the dog fight is too good, so I don’t complain. Awesome! And thanks for making videos of ROCAF
@@tianzining Limitations of the F-104 mod mare some of these inaccuracies necessary. If we get a better F-104 one day, I will probably remake this. As for ROCAF, as soon as MiG-17 module is released for DCS, I will do the famous Sabres vs MiG-17s battle with the first use of air-to-air missiles. That's a story that needs to be covered!
I was listening to this pod cast interviewing an old 106 pilot, and he was talking about his experience flying against 104s, he said although 106 had the best radar and interception computers of the time on-board, 104 had such a small size and low front view RCS that 106 radar couldn't pick them up before the pilot could actually notice them visually... Star fighter is a really interesting machine...
The Starfighter, who was one of the first RCAF instructor pilots in 1961 was my father's favourite aircraft. He felt it was the best fighter in the sky and often proved it in Europe.
"The six" as it was called was the most underrated and underutilized platform of the century fighters. It was basically part of a powerful national defense radar system which it used for direction and didn't rely much on its own radar. Very fast, powerful and quick climbing, it carried missiles internally and the Falcon missiles being developed for it became the Phoenix used by the F-14. The F-106 might have easily be been developed into a platform similar to Mirage but better.
@@fieldlab4 Well, Bruce Gordon was certainly very positive about the 106. I recommend anyone to listen to some of the interviews he gave if you haven't already.
I am amazed with those stubby wings that they were able to turn with the Mig-19's. I always thought of the F-104 Starfighter as an extremely fast interceptor; I had no clue it could actually be successful in a turning dogfight.
@@spitfirenutspitfirenut4835 I was a maintenance officer with NATO 1 Air Division RCAF in Germany in the '60's, and we used CF-104's in a low level nuclear strike role. The small wings actually reduced the vulnerability to low level turbulence due to the high wing loading. I was lucky enough to get a ride in a two-seater on an actual training flight that took us as far north as Holland. Low level meant about 100 feet off the deck at about 450 knots. Now that is exciting. and scary. The bay for the canon was used for a specialized fuel tank. Designed as a high altitude interceptor it was really fast in a straight line, but had a very wide turning radius. It was likely that the kills were high speed passing shots, not classic dogfights. But who wants to see a high speed passing shot in a sim? And who wants to model it? Not very interesting. This was a very nice simulation of that historic encounter, and demonstrated the critical importance of pilot training, which the Nationalists were very good at thank to their US support. Thank you Spitfirenut for the shoutout for Canadians. We regularly placed first in the NATO bombing competitions when I was there, which Google "confirms". As was frequently said of us Canadian, we fight above our weight.
@@edwardmarshall5295 Yes..... And I know how good we were in bombing and recon meets. We were the best! Especially in dicey weather conditions. Sometimes we were the only ones able to find the range. And how about those CRV-7s? Practice ones would usually destroy the target just with kinetic energy. No warhead. In dissimilar air to air combat the 104 even shot down some eagles during a high speed straight on attack! They didn't know what hit them until it was over. Thanks for you're service and being one of the best. All this could not have been achieved without the best ground crew of any airforce on the planet..Nothing could and still today keep pace with a 104 on the deck..
@@spitfirenutspitfirenut4835 LOL. I didn't know that about finding the bombing range itself! Get competition points just by showing up! LOL. And thanks for your service too.
It wasn't easy to find kills for the F-104 :) I'm not sure how accurately it is simulated in DCS since it's a mod, but it seems it can only kill the enemy which happens to be in front of it. If it needs to maneuver, not gonna happen :)
@@bwlgyozafangs7587 It was designed to be a point defense interceptor so probably wasn't really designed for dogfights, even though it was equipped withy a 20mm cannon while other fighter aircraft from that time were not being equipped with guns at all, like the F-102 and F-106. It was said that the F-104 was meant to counter the Mig-21 and when the two aircraft went head to head in the India-Pakistan wars it generated a lot of excitement from the designers, but it didn't perform to well.
Great video. It shows that F-104 is usually underrated. For sure was not the best fighter of its generation, but absolutely competitive if handled properly.
It was a world beater when it was first introduced. It was the first production fighter capable of mach 2 in level flight, and boasted a rate of climb and acceleration that even by today's standards is quite incredible. It was THE energy fighter of the late 1950s.
The early attrition rate was sky high. It was a high speed missile platform that couldn't turn and landed at high speed. Many people died in this thing, also called "Widowmaker". There was a reason they just got rid of them and turned them into exports. The mods like bigger wings on the G made a real difference.
In the 1970s there was an Italian Air Force pilot who regularly killed far more manoeuvrable aircraft (like F-4s for example) in NATO exercises and was only once "bagged" by anyone, US, UK, German or any other nationality. He used fast passes and high speed escapes, steep climbs and very fast dives. Most pilots who fought him said they rarely saw him as he used the speed, rate of climb and dive advantages of the F-104 so well. He never tried to engage in a turning fight against anyone. I read about him in the 1980s before the interwebs existed but I have been trying to find out his name recently so I could look him up again. Sadly he seems lost to history. I guess because he never fought in a shooting war his performance was not considered important enough. Personally I think he ought to have some articles about him online as he was living proof that it is the pilot that wins a dogfight, not the plane. The article was in an RAF internal news publication which I was loaned by a pilot. No recollection of what it was called but it was somewhere between January 1980 and February 1982, so maybe someone who reads this could tell us what the RAF's own news publication was called back then.
I was in Air Force ROTC during the early 80's we took a field trip from Buckley to Luke and got to see those Starfighters with the Iron Crosses on the tails. Cool 😎
@@donaldmyck4296 Not sure when you where there but when I was they definitly had Iron Crosses on them. Maybe they were just visiting or a different version, who knows but that's what got my attention.
@@Cpt_Adama I worked for Lockheed from 1969 to 1982, just before the German's sold all the aircraft to Taiwan. My last job was to take 'em apart and getting them ready to ship
This video portrays the real air battle between China and Taiwan on the date indicated in the beginning. The fight ended with two F-104s shooting down two Mig-19s. This is the Starfighter's only record of shooting down Mig-19s and no military clashes have taken place between the two sides since then.
I got to sit in the cockpit of a q f104 at Duke field in 1965 as a nine year old. My dad was a tech Sgt working on drone program there. This is among the best experiences of my childhood.
This air combat story has two version. Taiwan's version is shot down two China mig-19 and one F-104G missing in action . But China's version is shot down one Taiwan F-104G in head to head and no any mig killed. This video is so great. From Taiwan
Great clip!!!👍😁 I was a kid in 1967's mainland China, the only "victory" we read about the J6 over F104 was when a US Starfighter pilot got lost near Hainan island and was shot down (pilot survived) by a J6 pilot sneaking up behind him. BTW, the Taiwanese air force scored the very first Sidewinder kill in 1958 over the Taiwan strait, their victim was a Chinese J5(copycat of MiG 17).
Thanks for the comment! I actually did a video on the event you mention. American pilot Capt Smith was captured by Chinese fishing boats and remained a prisoner until 1973.
Pappa Bear Then, I believe that it will be interesting for you to learn about this legendary underground Soviet song: I'm running on scorched earth Slamming the helmet on the move. My Phantom with a white arrow, On a spread wing With a roar, it gains altitude. My Phantom with a white arrow, On a spread wing With a roar, it gains altitude. I can see the blueing distance, It's just a pity to violate this. Wish you could see her Our path is hard and far My Phantom is heading east. I make a left turn I'm an executioner now, not a pilot. I bend over the scope And the missiles rush to the target There is one more approach ahead. But I see a white devil in the sky, My Phantom is losing height. The catapult is salvation And the tension on the lines. Heart in your heels, I'm going into a tailspin. Just landed, at the same moment A wild cry came from the busts. Yellow-faced vietnamese They squeal in the winds like hares, I fell to the ground and fell silent. I'm walking on the cursed land again The helmet is not on the head. Behind the muzzle of machine guns Soldiers poke me in the back My life hangs in the balance. Who is the pilot that brought me down? I asked one Vietnamese. That slanting one answered me What commanded the interrogation: Our pilot LiSiTsin shot you down (i.e. Vyacheslav Lisitsyn - in fact, who fought in the air of Vietnam) It’s you Vietnamese lying in vain I clearly heard in the headset: "Kolya, press, and I'll cover!" Vanya, hit, and I'll cover! " Russian ace Ivan knocked me out. Somewhere in the distance, native Texas, Father and mother are waiting for me at home. My "phantom" exploded quickly in the blue and clear sky. I can’t see you anymore. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vOzeA-1cXuI.html
The actual F-104 (4344) that involved in this conflict is in the aviation museum nowadays. There’s a red star that marks the kill on the fuselage. You can visit it in southern Taiwan maybe after the pandemic outbreak here (😭, just near the Republic of China Air Force academy.
He means that in many of those cases, the situation hasn't changed much in decades. China and Taiwan, still tense. Israel and Syria, still at war. India and Pakistan, not friendly yet.
My father, RCAF Captain Clifford J. 'Hank' HENRY, was in the first group of instructor pilots trained at Nellis AFB in the US on the CF-104. These guys were called the 'legends'. They we're very good, and dad was one of the best having flown Corsairs in WW2 over France and then Sabres during the 1950's. He loved the 104, but admitted that most pilots were afraid of the aircraft. He flew them in Canada and Germany (Europe). They called him 'Yank, bank, and crank Hank. A new pilot, thinking he had dad by the tail soon found himself blacking out from the 'Gs", only to find Dad on his tail. Scratch one rookie. Also when the CF-18 came to Canada to replace the CF-104 the drag races began. One young pilot thinking he had the newest and hottest aircraft in the CF-18 was very surprised when the CF-104 lit the afterburner and disappeared. In the right hands this aircraft was a Tiger.
I'm Taiwanese,I've heard this on the news.It said that ROCAF had lost one F-104G after the combat(the news said it was disappeared,but PLAAF said it was shot down by MIG-19)Whatever,the undeniable truth is that F-104G shot down 2 MIG-19 during 113Combat.F-104G got a derogatory nickname in Taiwan:flying coffin. Love you video,thanks!
Thanks for the comment! The two kills are officially confirmed. As for the F-104 that was lost, possible causes are many but most probable was that it was shot down. They were heavily outnumbered and Mig-19 is quite maneuverable.
I like very show time 112 guy.good research,good narrating.the guy is my brother in humanity,his hard work gain respect for him bst wshs regards from Pakistan.
Actually, it's the guys from Razbam Simulations who have the credit for that. They built the MiG-19 module. All I did was select the Chinese cockpit option in the special options menu :) Thanks for commenting!
The combat represented here is mostly symbolic. The Mig-19 is a high-fidelity module and it is probably simulated well. But the F-104 is a simple mod with basic flight model (they did some improvements on it in the mean time). Plus, the AI isn't good enough to really adjust the fighting style to each model. Maybe someday we will have a really good F-104 so this can be redone.
@showtime112 sir, the chinese song and melody at the beginning is such a comparative advantage of yours to other channels depicting dogfights. Excellent job!
As a kid I’d do with my dad to the AF base and watch them land. They came-in hot, dropped the gear as the crossed the boundary ... touch lightly and pop their chutes .... awesome spectacle. On the road there was a sign “Beware of Low-Flying Planes” ..... yeah .... and do what ?! Duck ? Seems to me it could climb-away out of range and then dive to catch anything.
Back in the late 70s I worked nights at a warehouse here in Canada. When we ordered Chinese takeout. Quite often the delivery guy was an ex Taiwanese F104 pilot. Got to talk to him lots about his flying days!!
So I have heard, that the Starfighter was designed to be a pure straightline interceptor... _but_ .....at speeds of 400 kts or less, it was also designed to dogfight with flaps down in the 1st position. Supposedly this literally doubled it's turn performance.
It was not designed to be an interceptor it was designed as a frontline fighter at a time when they thought all dogfights would come down to how was higher and faster using boom and zoom. the air defense command had it as an interceptor for a short while as a stop gap and they could not get rid of it fast enough
@@BSUPERSABRE interception and air superiority are two entirely different roles. The F104 is perfect for destroying the nuclear bombers of it's day, which was it's entire job. Which is why the US wanted western Europe to have so many of them, thus allowing the US air force to defend its western and northern side while NATO defended it's eastern ones. However most of NATO lacked the ability to manufacture their own fighters or purchase modern ones from other nations, resulting in the starfighter being forced into rolls it was not suited for. Hence the accident rate.
@@Galdenberry_Lamphuck I am well aware of the difference between an interceptor and an air superiority fighter. The F-104 was an extremely poor interceptor, it could not shoot targets head on and did not have the ground control intercepting equipment that other planes had at the time.
Hi, @@Galdenberry_Lamphuck Sabre's right, initial design philosophy of the starfighter was high speed dogfighter with insane vertical performance. ADC opted for them due to unavailability of the F-106, they also quickly regretted their decision. F-104 was designed for one job and one job only - going up there and dealing with enemy fighters. That said, fighting with flaps down was not original design consideration, just something that was found out during service.
First of all Showtime112 Warmest Congratulations 👍👍👍on reaching 5000 Subscribers your channel really deserves it. 😉Hope your gonna hit the 100000 mark too you deserve it cause that channel filed a historical gape which I have not see so far. There are a lot of other DCS channels but this one stands out of the rest when it comes to bringing us historical events in aviation history.👍👍👍✈️✈️✈️ into our living room.
Thanks for the comment! I really want to do the famous fight with the first use of Sidewinders. I was gonna use MiG-15s as stand ins but now those guys announced they were developing the MiG-17 so I lean towards waiting for it.
Well, thanks for your comment! The nature of work on this channel really prevents me from being an expert on any model. I tend to vary a lot so my hours on each individual module are relatively low.
太棒了! 中華民國與中共的戰役，很建議Normandy MAP，在U.K. 有個Outer Islands，很像是當年的Kinmen，隔著waterway，非常像是823 artillery battle的Kinmen。正好面對著幾個Airport。very much like a chinese airport.
As a kid, I loved the F104 (looks right, is right), and I've seen them run thru tricks that no turkeybird could possibly do. With no wings she would be touchy, I s'pect, but J79 power in a flyweight Has to grant some magic!
Until I began watching this series, I was unaware that the F-104 had a combat service history. Also interesting is the fact that the Chinese J-6/Mig-19 was used in air combat.
Its combat history is quite obscure compared to say F-4. But I really like revealing things like that. As for MiG-19, Chinese simply loved that thing and kept it for much longer than others. Thanks for the comment!
In contrast to other ROCAF v.s. PLAAF jet battles, the ROCAF was fighting in a higher-performance airplane than their PLAAF counterparts during this one.
There was Sabre vs MiG-17 where Chinese aircraft had superior performance. But the missile factor decided it. Other than that, was there much more real fighting?
Most starfighters ended in the Nordsee. They came over our house in the Netherlands. They were stationed at Soesterberg. Beautiful jet. I have seen it in the Dutch aerospace museum.
I'm from Pakistan our Air force Used the following American aircrafts. T-6 Harvard(trainee) Lockheed T-33(trainee) F-86 sabers Martin B-57 canberra. F-104 starfighter F-16. We also used french Mirage 3 and 5. Finally we switched over to China as the USA is not reliable county in dealing.
@@showtime112 Actually the rate of turn could be very deceptive when flown by an experienced pilot such as my father. Many an opponent met their fate with him. In all the war games conducted by NATO with 104s in Europe none were shot down nor intercepted.
If you are actually dogfighting in an F-104, you have made bad decisions today. It's as pure an interceptor as was ever made. Its ability to turn is adequate for getting it to the Soviet bombers it is meant to destroy, and no better than required to do its mission and return safely to base. But its great speed means you can take off, engage bombers a hundred miles away, and be preparing to land back at the base in about 15 minutes.
The EE Lightning (and the original lightweight MiG21s) followed a similar “point interceptor” with approx. 30 mins of endurance design philosophy. Later “fat” Lightnings with their big-belly tanks, bulkier radomes and larger tails came away from that somewhat, whilst the MiG21 also grew hugely in weight and bulk in later models, but essentially the Starfighter airframe remained pure throughout.
I just watched your video again and listened to the explanation as to why there's no missiles. I like the music at the beginning too. I'm looking forward to watching more of your videos as time permits.
My country also had the F-104G "Widowmaker". But that was more of a device for researching earth's gravity. 269 machines were destroyed and 108 pilots killed without the need for any enemy. Most dangerous what the airplane for its own pilots. Strangely enough, the pilots loved the machine.
The rendering--and geometry--are fantastic! Bare metal finishes and varying sunlight reflection aren't easy to do--*and* make them look photo-realistic. One question, though; is it known with certainty that the F-104s jettisoned their wingtip fuel tanks before the fight? All of the documentation I've read on the F-104 says that the wingtip tanks acted as tip plates, improving the aircraft's turning ability (reducing the minimum turning radius). The wingtip-mounted AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles also conferred this aerodynamic benefit upon the F-104, although they were, of course, fired when necessary in combat. (Many nations' air forces--including our own--preferred a hardpoints arrangement in which the wingtip fuel tanks were retained, and the Sidewinder and/or AIM-7 Sparrow missiles [or other ones, if the countries in question had--or had developed--their own F-104-compatible air-to-air missiles] were carried on other under-wing, under-fuselage, and/or fuselage sides launch rail hardpoints.)
Thanks for the comment. As for the question, I have to admit that I haven't found this detail anywhere. Here in DCS, AI pilots will just jettison tanks because that's what they do. But the F-104 really participated in only a few aerial engagements.
Hello Yes, you could jettison the tip tanks, saw a video of it being done some time ago, looks very impressive too. Tip tanks were mainly for strike airframes, for A/A you'd usually have tip missiles and pylon tanks. The missile pylons iirc acted to reinforce the wingtips while also acting as anti-flutter weights.
Legend has it, the Starfifgter was actually called the 'Widowmaker' because once it completed a turn of engagement, the poor pilot died up there of old age.
@@showtime112 Yes, on a serious note the Fl04 was called that due to many crashes blamed on the wingspan being too small, hence the misfortune of many losses.
Thanks. The livery is actually not widely available. I improvised it by adapting it from USAF skin. It only has the roundel but no numbers so it's not good enough for a release.
I couldn't find details on which weapon was used. And since the F-104 mod can only carry AIM-9M, I decided not to use it because it is way too modern, an all aspect missile. The fight is quite symbolic.
@@migmadmarine I m Italian, we have been maybe the last country to have this machine in our air force. We remove it in 2004. I met experienced pilots of 104 and I talked a lot with them. This aircraft was crazy .. I don't know if you have seen one in reality. You cannot believe in his wing length, it is so small. It is a fuc*ing Rocket. They told me about incredible performance of climbing. It was a pure Interceptor that can humiliate modern fighters. But about maneuverability it was embarrassing. It could not compete with any other aircraft because of his small wing. His role was to intercept an enemy as fast as possible to launch missiles and escape. Dogfight was not allowed. Two things this 104 instructor told me: 1) when you are ready to take off with full afterburner and remove the wheel brakes the acceleration is amazing and from thos condition to 30000 ft in supersonic cruise it needs just 50 sec. 2) a looping needs 9000ft of height. 3) 104 is a machine dangerous... And you need to spend a lot of concentration just to flight it... It killed many pilots. This is why I wrote my comment 😅... Because it was like a sky dragster...Use this to race in a circuit is just crazy... 😅
I knew a man Colonel Jack Bailey who was a test Pilot for the F104 and also flew the F4 Phantom in combat in Vietnam. He preferred the F104 as a fighter.
@@Packard1947 Maneuverability of the F-104 isn't something you'd normally expect to hear as its advantage but perhaps we are all a bit biased there. Thanks for the info.
As others have said, it's not that the 104 could out fly a Mig-19 on the Mig-19's terms. It's more about the pilots of each plane maximizing their aircraft's strengths, while not allowing their plane's weaknesses to give their opponent an advantage.
It was also called "the missile with a man in it". Kelley Johnson was a little crazy. He didn't believe in swept wings. The U-2 was based on the 104 design. Notice his trapezoid shaped wings were even on the P-38. As far as them pulling 7 or 8G's as depicted here, I have to wonder about that.
7 or 8Gs may have been possible with the Mach tuck that 104s were famous for. Gonna nit pick a little here. P-38 had rounded wing tops so technically not a trapezoid. Incidentally the Constellation airliner used same wing platform as P-38.
@@patrickgriffitt6551 his wings never evolved. The leading and trailing edges were often almost symmetrical. Often even for tail planes and stabilizers.
@@fieldlab4 trapezoid wings are very common... U-2's wings are swept back a couple degrees at the 25% line, F-104 had like, 18° sweep? And there are obviously other, more nuanced, differences between the designs.
I remember the old SPI board game Air War, that described this scenario... or one like it. 'However, ideological fervour was no match for better planes and pilots, as the Starfighters downed three Migs without loss to themselves.' Either the game got the facts wrong, or there was another battle of two F104's vs 8 Mig 19's.
long dogfight in low altitude have F-104 no chance. F-104 concept was high altitude interceptor. F-104 is as rocket unstable in high G.Mig-19 better turn
USAs and USSRs most unreliable and dangerous aircraft. MiG-19 was rushed to claim the crown of the worlds first supersonic fighter, and proven extremely under-developed and with a shit-ton of issues. Was not a good plane, and MiG-21 was a welcome relief. F-104s poor reliability and crash rate were also among the worst for an American design. F-104 was as pure an interceptor as is possible to make. It's turn rate was very poor thanks to stub wings with low area, thin profile and poor lift as a result. But they had very low drag. On the ground the leading edges had to be covered due to being sharp.
@@showtime112I think that the Taiwanese also killed over 10 Chinese MiG-17 jets with their older F-86. If DCS has both of those, you should consider that! I’m very interested in Taiwan and Chinese battles
