Fixing the Games Industry With Jonathan Blow | Sacred Symbols+, Episode 368 

Couldn’t agree more mate. The jazz musician Miles Davis once said that the actual beauty in music is the space between the notes. Being comfortable in moments of silence and pauses is so important. This shows Colin’s mastery as an interviewer.

the long periods of silence while Jonathan tries to figure out how to dance around saying trigger words so not to offend regressives. jesus christ. well, he's called "the smartest man in gaming," not the man in gaming with the biggest backbone.

@@isturbo1984 It's more that he's trying to articulate word choice in the most eloquent manner possible. Even if you say trigger words, there are refined ways of organizing those same words together. It's clear that Jonathan understands and respects the art of word choice.

@@metaldicemansure. i know. he's refined for sure. but its a 80/20 thing thats pretty obvious.

@@isturbo1984It's a case of "been there, done that". Any time he's more spicy people get very mean in a bad way. Like the tweet that was referenced in this interview, the quote tweets were VILE, and that wasn't even a very spicy take. There is backbone and then there is not wanting to get thrown shit at you for a week for five sentences you've said.

Nice pfp. RIP Akira Toriyama.

I think that the education system being a requirement and societal expectationn for vulnerable kids while also annihilating ambition and harming student's brains is a bad societal problem. It seems like in elementary/middle/high school, people do what they are told and don't try to be the best at anything. I relate to what you say.

@@0iaWhenever I had problems in school, for whatever reason, it was always my male Social Studies/Geography teachers who were the most helpful. Even if it had nothing to do with grades, if it had to do with fitting in or whatever, it always seemed like they were the nicest, most caring, and most helpful. I'll always remember their names because of this. They wanted the best for me, they wanted the best out of me, and they helped me improve myself, both as a person and a student.

@@stuckintheinbetween :)

.hopesfall.

As an outsider that casually tuned in to see why the game dev environment is terrible at the moment I found Blow saying that he’s spent the past 8 years making an engine and a programming language instead of an actual game. I then go to read the comments section and see that you called him rational. Listen to Blow at 15:48. He knows he’s making bad decisions. The game industry is making poor management decisions. Blow can sort of do this because he sounds borderline genius and has some cash. You all sound lovely and I think Blow is a good guy. But seriously I’ve seen this before with smart programmers and they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes by aiming for perfection.

I dunno man. He hasn't delivered. He didn't include a final secret or Easter egg in the Witness ... Even though it required you to watch a 2hout RU-vid video about Easter eggs and mystery in media

There are a few final secrets, arguably including the 1 hour lecture you mentioned and its corresponding secret, which is not actually ‘required’ seeing as how it is itself a ‘secret’.

@@nintendude794 I suppose. I was little let down when I turned all the pillars white and it did it didn't trigger anything new. I was bummed.

Same!

It's generally best to let your opinion of someone be formed by that person directly!

He has some really bad takes, but he has some really good takes too. Rather than caring for what impression he gives you as a person, it's better to consider each idea on its own merit.

Jon is just very neurotic, it's not something he has control over but even in this conversation you can see the critical negative lense of course, just less grumpy and more concerned, but similar idea

The default for someone working in software should be grumpy. The industry is loaded with snake oil and horse 💩 More should discuss this

Curious what you mean by this. I’m a software developer myself and I don’t really feel this way in general. Honestly it’s the most fulfilling job I’ve ever had (and I’ve had a few, in various industries like healthcare, construction, and service)

I need to get back to it, got probably about 1/3 thru and fell off a bit. I'll probably need to start over which gives me anxiety. I had a notebook I was using but that may be incoherent coming back years later.

One of the best games ever made and a true work of Art.

I couldn't solve any puzzles. Maybe should give it another go

@@OnlyRealCloud I'd say take notes and also realize though technically you can "solve" any of them at any time there is a route your guided on that gives you some of the building blocks of what different symbols mean. If you walk up to one and it's complex and contains a bunch of stuff you haven't seen before make note of it and what's on it but then go look around as you almost definitely skipped over the easier ones that train you.

Jonathan blow back?

I thought I was the only one confusing him with Dave Bautista. He looks like Bautista's cousin or something.

It’s the shape of his head/neck, he has that same round bald cranium look. Somehow dudes with that head shape look powerful AF lol

I have some opinions that would absolutely appal even LSM

Lol. We all do but unfortunately I would like to keep my job so I will keep them to myself. But when I retire; I will enjoy being honest for once! @@Dmpurcell90

Nailed it 👍 it’s an open minded community. Love the LSM followers.

Yeah, Blow clearly came into this interview on the defensive knowing full well he might polarize. But honestly, I didn’t find him polarizing at all. He came across as reasonable and rational. Very compelling interview.

You shouldn't agree on everything someone thinks, shows you're in the right place

“You can’t fix other people, but you can fix yourself.”

The economy is not fucked for normal people because anyone was irresponsible lol, this is exactly the way it was supposed to go

It's just capitalism and its limits. We didn't built a world based on human values and human needs. We built a world based on money, short-term gains etc....everything is showing us we have to adjust our value system to reflect what REALLY matters in life. The society we have is not meant to thrive.

So have I! This man has made two masterpieces. Braid was the game that really made me a believer in the "indie" space and the witness was a one of a kind game. It's a puzzle game that takes the most simple mechanic and transcends it to a beautiful, surreal, and mind bending experience.

My second favourite game of all time. Avoid spoilers and enjoy!

You might hit moments where you're completely stuck and the urge to give up will kick in. Try to push through. Take a break or come back to that puzzle later and you'll eventually solve it. It's one of the most satisfying experiences when you finally finish the game.

Great way to put it.

Been that way since Dadaism

The reason that anyone's thorough, transparent, and earnest attempts at objectivity in criticism are so eagerly interpreted (or, more often, outright ignored) as being 'anti-woke' is largely because the very notion of objectivity itself implies/requires a hierarchy--of quality, based on merit. Merit in the context of criticism could be defined by such characteristics as internal consistency (coherence) and flawlessness (demonstrated proficiency of craft/technique, apparent achievement/fulfillment of artistic goals and ideals, minimal observed presence of potential error or fault). Merit and hierarchy (and ideals) alike are all inherently anti-thetical to the 'woke' worldview, and the instincts it instantiates. According to the Book of Woke, no person or race or sex or height or weight or occupation or geographical location or lifestyle or sexuality or "lived experience" is superior or inferior or qualitatively different to any other, they are all equal--none are above or below in any way whatsoever and therefore all are totally equal in value, equal in merit. Therefore, no winners allowed, so instead everyone gets a participation trophy and a pat on the back, in all outcomes. Big problem with that: "when everyone's Super, no one will be." When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. As an example, women now have to ("get to") become soldiers and firefighters and construction workers and CEOs instead of nurses and teachers and counselors and mothers--because there 'are no differences', and because there -*-can-*- be no differences. Forget the fact that if the idea of 'no differences' was true, affirmative action would never have survived its infancy, or never existed in the first place. But alas, even on 'leveled' Diverse Inclusive Equitable playing fields, women [and "minorities"] still struggle to -*-compete-*- -- emphasis on compete, again merit, hierarchy, etc. -- and essentially end up serving their new masters as mere props and tokens, tragically and ironically. This also applies perfectly for men and women entering each others' athletic arenas under the guise of trans-inclusivity--so extreme is this new view that men and women are 'equal' that you must also view them as wholly interchangeable, regardless of circumstance or context. When no one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Same goes for art and criticism. The woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to "say nothing at all unless they have something nice to say", generally, unless of course they're talking to or about the perceived anti-woke... More importantly, the woke (more than the anti-woke) would prefer to forget film and design and art altogether--instead, everything is content now, and no content is superior to any other content: no content *can* be superior to any other content. Just consoooom product, and get excited for next product. Be content with mere 'content'. Enjoy the g0yslop that passes for entertainment nowadays, chud. You've *earned* it... No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. In fact, why not just let the subscription services and the AIs handle alllll your art and entertainment needs and desires from here on out. As if you have a choice in the matter. Own nothing, live in pod, eat bugs, and be happy. That day is closer than anyone, including me, is prepared for. No one can win, anymore, every one has to lose. Every one is equal in the eyes of the rootless transnational capitalist cabal of masters. Anyways... A majority probably don't even recognize these instincts of theirs, or that they're connected in this way. “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The same or similar could be said of videogames, films, and all other articles of art. For more on this topic / these topics, I highly recommend: Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut The Force Awakens Review: Introduction by MauLer (but only the first 64 minutes or so, for our specific conversation here) An Apology For Roger Ebert GDC Talk by Brian Moriarty All Cultures Are Beautiful series by Sargon Are Some Cultures Better Than Others? by PragerJu I mean PragerU Brave New World by Huxley Google's Ideological Echo Chamber by James Damore

@@nintendude794 Wokeism is proven illogical the second you see one lion pride take out another, or observe the evolution of a species throughout time via it's domination of other species and intra-domination of certain types within that species. Modern people need to get some balls and call this ideology out for what it is because by the time it destroys our society it will be a killing field not a time for debate.

Turns out if you have overwhelming ability and the right personality it doesn't have to be a fantasy.

@@bigfrankalbigguy789 well, as of now, it still is lol... he's come further than others, sure, but let's look back when he actually ends up with a finished game.

I agree, remote work exposes individuals who weren't productive in the office but got away with it. It also gives employees more time, less stress and gives employers access to a wider range of skills since they're no longer limited by geographic location

I agree but I'm not in a creative field and I think maybe in those fields its easier to be collaborative in that way. That said my quality of life is drastically improved as a work at home worker, and also if these companies really put their money where their mouths were about reducing their carbon footprint they would do this where ever it made sense. I think in many cases they want to micromanage their employees.

I do remote work at this point as well, because my focus shifted from caring about what I do to just wanting to do the job and get out. I believe back in the day it used to be different - you would be in a room with people who are all about what they do and always had insights to share about the stuff they do. I believe conversations would be about topics and not personal/social things of the workplace. Nowadays it seems very stigmatized to care about what you do - at least from my experience. You are better off signaling that you are as common as you can be - so why not just as well socially dissociate by working remote and reinvesting the rest of your day in the things you truly care about. Especially the web stuff feels very alienating...

In my experience working at a smaller studio for 5+ years, I'd agree with Jonathan Blow on this one. Game dev, especially with smaller teams, is pretty different from your standard 9-5 job where you just do your job to get paid and then leave. People get into game dev because they're intensely passionate about their work, and most people I know want a collaborative, creative, and tight-knit environment. That requires building and maintaining healthy team dynamics, especially because it's an inherently stressful and exhausting job. You both 'have' and 'want' to put so much of yourself into it, and sometimes that can blur the lines between personal and work life. It takes a very specific kind of person to want it. I've experienced firsthand exactly what he's talking about, where gradually remote work can start to feel isolating. I think it does have a demonstrable negative effect on morale and productivity. Seeing people in person at events and doing more in-office work has had a lot positive effects for team culture. Again, it's very different than most jobs.

Too many in the American workforce need to be babysat in the workplace unfortunately.

Lack of meritocracy, more like.

The Witness is my second favorite videogame of all time and I also am still missing the final trophy. I’ll play the whole game a third or fourth time someday and claim that achievement then. (It’d be difficult to do without a thorough refresher on the game’s “languages”.)

@@nintendude794 Yeah you're right. Like, I'm really good at puzzles (imo) but I'm just not super fast. So I remember I just kept falling short of that certain trophy because it's on a timer. I'm just not fast enough lol which means I guess I'm not smart enough hahaha. Still, such a great game

And Ed McMillen for that matter. Bonus: Rich Vreeland.

now that’s an interview that could go ape-poop off the rails. would totally look forward to that!

is Phil doing anything these days?

😂 Ok, this comment got me. 😂

I had a HS teacher named Mr. Creme. And we just kinda laughed at that

Wanna hear something even more on the nose (or tip)? I had a school nurse named Mrs. Dick. Her husband’s name? Harry…….you know the rest.

It's not like he needs the language for the game. He just couldn't take dealing with C++ any more after decades of it.

@@forasago I couldn't take dealing with C or ++ in college either. And that was only a few months 😁

Braid Anniversary coming Q2 2024. No telling what else or when just yet.

He's been working on one of his next games, the sokoban one, since 2017 and has streamed a lot of the development on twitch. I haven't finished this pod so not sure if he gave a timeline, but he recently said the game is another year or two from being done. There's also a small VR under development with Jon being the designer. And another big game in the works that's secret with Jon and friends saying it's so good and fun. The only thing known is that it's not a puzzle game.