yeah seen a lot of people feeling this same way, it would’ve been more gratifying for salvor to have developed a bit more mental power and used the trick on the guy she was fighting rather than her keep falling for the same trick
I think one good explanation is that what he was doing was not just changing her perception of his image, but also making her feel how she felt about Hugo - so when she was hurting / killing him he was making her feel that she was killing Hugo as well, not just seeing him like if he had a hologram projected around him
Demerzel’s diss was nuclear. But also I think she is responsible for the change in Cleon the 1st’s DNA. Because he tells her straight out she can’t harm anyone with his same code (DNA) and it’s been a long game to escape her new prison which is serving them. Once the DNA is different enough nothing can stop her from killing them and taking over. Also when she mentioned the fact she is the only one that can create new robots I think she might be secretly making more as well.
Demerzel serves the concept of Empire at this point, not just his DNA. How else could she have killed Dawn in Season 1 when it was found out he was trying to escape? Like Dawn and Dusk are constantly afraid of this season, they can always just decant another one. I do still think it was Demerzel that altered the DNA but if that's all that was needed then she would have killed them and escaped by now if that was her goal. I think her goals are more complicated than just escaping.
@@ClydeFogI don’t think she means to escape. I think she means to take over completely. Perhaps she was able to kill dawn because of his different DNA but the Cleons don’t know that’s she’s incapable because of their altered memories.
I wondered that, too. How Demerzel could have killed Season 1 Dawn. Now a way is possible, if the DNA having been altered changes the "code" that Cleon 1 mentions. Demerzel altering the code makes perfect sense except that, wouldn't her programming to preserve the genetic dynasty prevent her from doing so? She definitely plays the long game.
When hari demerzel and day were talking I loved how hari spoke to demerzel directly when he intended to make a point like if they were the adults talking and day was just the annoying toddler in the room
What I love about Hari and Demerzel is that they are compimentary in their roles. his calculations don't predict individual choices while her choices are all directed by an individual
* Which is why Empire falls, no? * No, the Galactic Empire did not fall because of Demerzel. The Galactic Empire is falling because of economics. The Galactic Empire is too set in its way to change.
I'm 81yrs old and read Asimov's Foundation series as a young teenager. I still have his books on my bookshelf. Nice to see he'a still alive in the eyes and minds of SF fans.
I too, am older than most in these chat groups -so glad to see that I am not alone in the older set! I read the books over a summer long ago, and then used the books to get my two sons -- and now one grandson - into reading. Worked like a charm! I urge that you reread them all if you haven't already. It's truly fun to find little nuggets that have either been forgotten or that are newly caught with raised eyebrows. If the Apple series does nothing else, it has introduced a new generation to the works of Asimov.
@@michaellerner528 I haven't watched the Apple series so I don't know if my favourite Asimov quotation made it into the series: "Violence is the last resort of an incompetent".
@@johnwilson4120 Yikes! how do I put this..... Yes, the quotation made it into the series, said by Salvor as (she) was holding a high capacity weapon, ready to use it on a moments notice. I had at least hoped she might smoke a cigar, but alas, we lost out on that one as well. That quote is a lifetime favorite of mine - and so many others - as well. Especially these days! I stopped watching the series after the first season as I didn't want to pay for it. All I 'm doing in the chat groups is trying to find ways to defend the books, urging people to read them.
Pretty sure they would've announced S3 by now if it weren't for the months long writers/actors strike. Sadly, the strike is going to result in very delayed seasons of a lot of good shows.
one thing, when day got angry and swiped away the stuff at seldon table its because he said "and you would've just uncorked another one" as in seldon called day a "wine" as in the quote from season 1 "just another grape, destined for the same old bottle".
I also think Day was pissed because this reminds him that he is a clone without a soul, and implies that Demerzel is that real power behind the throne because she can just create more copies of him whenever she wants to do so.
@@themidcentrist nah his main frustration is that he is born a copy and his main fear is that he will not make a difference. Thats why he felt the need to say i will be the cleon that will choose peace
My God, that episode was EVERYTHING! Tthe Demerzel backstory was done so well; its what we've all been waiting for and it turns out to be much more sinister that I could have imagined! And that ending was, just, WOOOOW! Great review as always, Pete!
yes but no, the second foundation is supposed to exist at the same timeline as the 1st, and except if i missed something, we have no info about the 2nd foundation,and to me its not yet created, since gaal chose something else. @@zoehelkin
the robots went to war with humans, and they lost. when you aim for the king you better not miss, or you might find yourself sentient and vivasected placed in a 5 thousand year tomb then enslaved to a clone dynasty for god knows how long more. it's in the handbook.
This episode makes that scene in season 1 where she rips her face much more tragic. She`s the most tortured soul of all the characters and yet she`s not even human! I`m also loving the game of chess played out by the seemingly immortal beings on this show The digital selves, the clones selves, the mechanical selves and the hibernating selves!!
@@nitzky8936 that line is over with thanks to a good bashing from one of the other immortals. Also I would not be surprised if the Mule turns out to be the kid we saw helping Salvor. 🤷
@@RandomNPC001 My money was on the Mule being Tellem, after she transferred her consciousness into the kid's body, but considering she was genuinely afraid of him, yeah, it's just the kid.
Lee Pace killed it in this episode!! He's been great in both seasons to be fair. Things felt sluggish after a slow start to the season, it's really picked up and has been a pleasant surprise. Great episode for sure!!
OMG, this show! Every performance was spot on. Demerzel's story was heartbreaking. When she kept telling Cleon, quietly, "This isn't freedom," as she recognized that she would have to trade one prison for another? The subtlety of that performance was stunningly beautiful. What will she do now that she knows she has failed to help Day become the kind of leader, the kind of man, Empire requires? What will Bel Rios do now that he has nothing (and no one) left to lose? The one thing that kept Bel loyal to Empire was the thought of horrific visions of the killing of Glawyn being broadcast before him for the rest of Bel's life. That's off the table. I expect Bel will somehow help Constant and Homer Mallow escape, and that will play into the Second Foundation.
Gaal and Salvor's story on Ignis is set days or more before what we see happen on Terminus. I think there is a reason, and the fact we have been shown that mentalics can project illusions might play into my theory that Terminus wasn't destroyed. If the mentalics projected the illusion to fool Empire, and no one on Terminus died, we might see Glawyn talk to Bel over the private comm that he had established - fueling Bel's desire to aide Foundation. It would take a lot of mentalics to project that scale of an illusion but with the aide of the Spacers they might be able to get there in time. Perhaps the spacers tagged Hober Mallow based to help Gaal - remember, Gaal's story is taking place before Hober is found by Poly. Gaal could have a future vision of Terminus and know what to do.
Cleons will fall, she will be exposed as being ‚the enemy resurrected‘ and go into hiding. She will have ‚robots in disguise‘ planted throughout the empire to aid her in her goals (whatever they are)
@@geokon3 she does seem like the Mule and was terrified of him. I dont think she would fool Hari twice, it seems like it was him because his outfit is the same. The transfer wouldn't be complete because the machine was activated to disrupt the brainwaves, I don't think she would have been able to fool them when it was activated.
What a bombshell of an episode. Definitely didn't anticipate that ending with the destruction of the entire planet of Terminus for good. Already when I watched it there was some suspicion in me that this is just a misdirect and possibly not the reality. And after watching the interview with Goyer, I feel even more so that in the finale episode they will pull some shenanigans to make things right. Let's see if the ghost of Tellem Bond made an escape (to the boy, possibly) before she was savagely beaten to death by the sudden reappearance of the cloned-and-believed-dead Hari Seldon. We also still need to see what will become of Sareth and the other Empire Brothers on Trantor. All in all, the most intriguing story is Demerzel's which this very episode fleshed out nicely with the over 600-year-old flashbacks. Her sudden reaction when back on board the Imperial jump ship from Terminus, her subsequent emotional takedown of Day, and then leaving for Trantor without him definitely added more excitement for what's to come in the finale. Cannot wait to see the S2 conclusion. Roxann Dawson did a marvelous job directing episodes 8 and 9 for the second season. Kudos to her. I am glad we already have some confirmation via Goyer for more seasons to come.
Omg, when I saw Harry, Cleon and Demerzel all together in one intimate room allowed me to see how Harry and Day are both immortal copies and Demerzel is a robot highlighting the idea of “longevity” that Harry speaks about. That was my favorite scene! This was the BEST episode, hands down.
I don't think you understand. Harl is now a Robot A.I. and so is the "Prime Radiant" it has a Robot A.I. that Harl did not create. Then their is Demerzel as well, this not looking good for Brother Day who doesn't really know what is going on.
@@Madame702 I do understand that, but that’s not what I’m talking about. When I saw all three of them together in that one scene, I realized that they all have the common thread of longevity in their story line. Harry and Cleon are not their original selves because they’ve managed a way to bypass the constraints of mortality by prolonging their time and existence to see their plans unfold. Since Demerzel is a robot she naturally has time on her side. They’re the only 3 characters of the show that share that common thread of longevity. To your point, yes, it’s not looking good for Day because he’s unable to see the destruction that his Ego is creating, hence becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy if Demerzel doesn’t take heed of Harri’s advice.
Hari sez: "I never liked her." - PURE GOLD!!! Jared Harris...WOW! In "Foundation" and previously in "Chernobyl", "The Expanse", "Mad Men", "Fringe", Harris has shown that he got the goods.
If it was on a more popular streaming service, it would be. Then again, if that service was Netflix, it would've been cancelled after S1 because it didn't instantly get 100 million views or whatever...
The problem is, it isn't remotely the Foundation series. It's about 10% of the plot, 40% of the characters and 5% of the scientific speculation of the books. Very frustrating to watch.
@PeterDrake imho - apple tv+'s foundation is more like 10% from books (might be less) 10% game of throne 10% star wars 5% x-men apocalypse 30% cgi (out of this 5% science stuff crap) n 25% character 10% sjw disney horses*** Ps1: the books had psycho-historians in Terminus the whole time but this show has zero p-historian there!!!!!😢 2: channel video review was good; but the cgi was v v good 3: again imho - story writing was good ep1-5 ok for 6-7 terrible for 8 n 9 4: the theme of foundation (I love when I read book 1) was doing small things to change undesired outcome in history (this is missing in these ep.s esp. after ep6 maybe also 5) I m only happy bcoz cgi was excellent, n acting
Very good directing. Shit writing .. especially with Foundations "lack of" preparation for war .. and ... the great escaped from powerful Mentallics by Gaal & Salvor. The Foundation had 150 odd years ... to prepare for war with Empire .. and all they had was the Invictus, multiple Whisper ships .. and .. a church making all sorts of high tech gadgets. A grade for Directing. C+ Writing.
The last two episodes have been insane! I'm fully invested in every single storyline now. I feel like this is one of those shows that's gonna gain a real cult status in years to come.
I kinda hope so, Game of Thrones was outstanding serie that have a massive cult talking about it. But Foundation, as a book or serie could potentially be bigger than that if only in could reach a large audience.
Watching Cleon and Demerzel get to know each other reminded me so much of Ex Machina. Cleon falling for a machine who was simply analyzing him and giving back the emotions he needed was fascinating. Watching her feed his ego by telling him how he lights up a room felt like she was gaining the upper hand. Having Cleon best her was quite unexpected even though we know she ends up serving Empire.
By telling Day her opinion, she hurt him emotionally. Earlier she wasn't able to hurt him, even emotionally. That is why she told the first Cleon that she loved him. I think Hari freed Demerzel while she was in his presence. And this will start the undoing of the Empire: Demerzel will make copies of herself and bring everything down. There will be a war between robots and humanity - again (That's my theory at least.)
She potentially started making robots long ago, physical Hari is probably a robot, Kalle is probably a robot, Hari’s lover was most likely a robot and wasn’t really pregnant… someone’s pulling his strings for sure.
@@djBlindFaith Bedroom assassination episode, she stated that her consciousness is “decentralized”. That would imply multiple physical spares of herself, with the same directive to serve the empire. Then also safe to assume creating robots with three robotic laws built in , repeats past enslavement of her kind. And reproducing robots with free will, is against her programming. So what is her end game, ending the clone dynasty? Or taking down the entire empire , aka whole galaxy of humans to gain her freedom?
ohhh, I like that, I thought he may have uploaded information into her, somehow, just like he tagged a ride inside Brother Constant. But I think you may be right with Hari altering her code and freeing the shackles, a bit.
The detail I really liked was the choice of quoting from the Bhagavad Gita. The main thread of the Gita is the question of whether a war is just; Arjuna (the warrior) hesitates before going into battle because he doubts whether it is right to cause so much death. I think this foreshadows a dilemma that Bel will face.
Now that Demrezel has confirmed she has been in different bodies, we probably can assume that she was at some point in the past R. Daneel Olivaw. That would close the loop with this version of Asimov story where they have included the robot novels from the beginning.
Indeed. It was a bit jarring in season 1 given how different this show is firm the books but it has really come into its own in season 2 and is now its own creation.
Just wanted to say that I am waiting for your videos the same way I am waiting for the actual Foundation episodes. That's got to count for something. Thanks Pete!
What a sick episode. My jaw hit the floor once the Invictus’ crash imploded the planet. I’m hoping Demerzel arc does not revert to a “robots revolt” and its more like she leaves the Empire behind as everything collapses around Day.
No but please remember the "Prime Radiant" has the Robot A.I. Kali within it. Will it influence Demerzel? She has been alone for so long how will she react to coming in contact with another Robot after so long. Can Kali change her A.I. ?
Well the "robots revolt" caricature is from Isaac Asimov. I would be surprised if they would not delve deeper into the three laws of robotics and why they were insufficient to prevent such revolution. It's something that really exists as a theoretical problem and there is no way to this day that would give us capability to permanently control truly sentient AI.
@@aleks5405 No they don't have the rights to that but they will light touch on it because "The foundation" series they do have rights to that. Just remember Demerzel is in both Robot and Foundation. So they walk a line where the Demerzel of Foundation exist and not go into the Robot Demerzel.
@@aleks5405 It is an Isaac Asimov trope BUT David Goyer is waaaaaaay off the map from the source material. And in this case, I prefer to hope that the hubris of man is ultimately what doomed him. As Seldon said, you can’t have both longevity and power.
Hold that thought about leaving the mess of the Empire..... Goyer mentioned that the seires will end like the books in his interview with Pete. No spoilers - just hold that thought.
Now that's what i'm talking about this....this episode was epic... large battle scenes, drama, tears, fears, edge of seat and the look on Day as did his evil deed... unreal man
The space battle was a joke. Foundation had 150 years to prepare for war with Empire .. including copying & improving the Invictus ... and all they had ... was the Invictus, multiple whisper ships with guns .. and .. and a Church making the latest greatest tech. FFS. Salvor Hardin ... stopped the Huntress .. jumping the Invictus .. into Trantor to destroy it completely ... and nobody on Terminus ... though have have Whisper ship Drones ... loaded with nukes ... prepare to jump into any of Empire's Battleships ... protecting the entire planet?
@@abelincoln8885true, and they have boxes of personal shealds but no one was using them wtf is this. I was hoping for epic battle for terminus but they delivered nothing.
@@abelincoln8885 I didn’t feel “robbed” of a great battle because I don’t think that’s what Foundation is about. I expect that from Star Wars but not Foundation. But you’re not wrong, as there was some build up to this and confidence by the Foundation in winning the inevitable coming conflict with Empire. Maybe Terminus was some sort of decoy? The Foundation now has a presence in other systems
Pete your breakdowns have become just as good as watching the episodes, you’re attention to detail is spot on and I look forward to these every week! Thank you so much! One question that I’m still trying to get my head around… if Demerzel is bound by the laws of not being able to hurt a Cleon, then how was she able to bypass this when she snapped Dawns neck last season? Another amazing episode from the BEST series this year! 🙏
Demerzel serves Empire. Dawn had to have been such a threat as she watched the chaos of Day and Dusk fighting, so she took matters into her own hands for the good of Empire.
The genetic drift! he was the start of the clones no longer being "Cleon!" And none of them would realize she overcame the law because they had no memory of knowledge of it until present time Dusk
"An ending nobody saw coming" I actually almost did. I once joked that the series has driven itself so far away from book canon that if they blow up Trantor in the next episode, I wouldn't be surprised. And I hate that my joke was so close to what actually ended up happening
I suspect they will blow up Trantor very soon. Shows often follow the “this is going to be awful (ie destroy terminus)” followed by something even worse (trantor destroyed or another planetary system)……..
This Demerzel's past revealed was astounding. Terminus destruction was completely unsuspected. But the most heartbreaking part happened when Cleon mercilessly ordered Bel Riose to destroy the planet while his husband was on the surface. Riose's teary goodbyes were devastating. Cleon is a monster. Tellem being defeated and beaten was soooo satisfying. Hari telling Gaal he never liked that woman was pure gold. This week will be so long waiting for the next episode and to find if Hari tricked Cleon's mind and how Hari survived.
This is the only way I'll be able to watch this show. By far, your's is the best "Recap" channel. I hesitate to say Recap even. You really paint a fuller picture than the others I've seen. You have a gift MrPete, thanx for sharing it with us. ✌🏻😎
Dermezel was likely alerted by the Cleon 1 program and called back to reset Brother Dusk for knowing the truth. And with Brother Day's crazies kicking in and Brother Dawns betrayal.. she might end up resetting all three and killing everyone else.
I would listen to stories about the Robot Wars, and the home planet Earth. Such a packed episode. Showrunner and Executive Producer David S. Goyer joined me to discuss it further. You can listen to our conversation here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YkPM3NBxB7A.html. Let me know what you think.
In all sincerity, there is no way with all the money they have spent, and not give us a proper finale. It wouldnt suprise me that it doesn't go to movie length at all.
I think it's worth mentioning that since everything happening with Gaal/Salvor/Hari/Tellum is happening significantly before the events in the final scene where Terminus is destroyed. At the time where that's happening who knows where the three of them are by that point! Idk why I just see it as being significant that there is such a delay between the two seemingly concurrent storylines.
I think the fact that the Prime Radiant still exists and wasn't destroyed with the planet will come into play in the continuation of the Foundation. I think Hari's essence is in the prime radiant itself rather than in the obelisk - or you could say he can transfer into it. Day is essentially bringing Hari with him back to Trantor which may prove to be his final undoing.
Pete Peppers, IMHO it's *GREAT* that the "big RU-vidr channels" like New Rockstars or Heavy Spoilers don't cover Foundation on Apple TV at all. It's a great series that's gotten better and I hope that they continue letting channels like yours do the great reviews we've seen so far this year, and stay in their MCU/Star Wars "swim lanes". :) I do wish that you and Quinn from Quinns' Ideas channel would do a crossover episode - his love of Foundation runs *DEEP* like yours. It seems like he is not doing reviews for this season of Foundation though... Thanks again!
That is the understatement of the year. I mean WTF!!! Terminus was DESTROYED??!!?? When did that happen in the books?? We are in uncharted territory now
The only thing I dislike about the changes at this point (as much as this is NOT the foundation book's story tht plot could never be filmed) is that Bel Riose in the book was unfailingly loyal to the Empire and the Emperor. That made his being yanked back at the moment of triumph all the more tragic and I cannot see us getting that story beat here. It really highlighted the point that the means used to keep the Empire alive at that point were also the thing killing it. Otherwise the Cleon story really does explore Asimov's themes really well. And the actor playing Seldon is so good I will take any excuse to keep him around some more.
Yeah, the books would'be been really difficult to film in any direct way. What they've managed to build from its foundation (ha?) is actually quite impressive though. I know some people were lukewarm on S1, but I've greatly enjoyed S2 overall. In fact, this episode in particular was one of the best episodes of TV I've seen this year.
Agreed! I also love the portrayal of Seldon's character. Jared Harris is such a great actor; Loved him in the mini series "Chernobyl", in the first season of the "Terror" series, and in "Sherlock Holmes: A game of Shadows" as Moriarty! I hope the show runners don't kill off his Character!
The books in their written format were unfilmable. This adaptation while staying a long way from the books in story structure has kept the spirit of the story and that’s what counts.
Lee Pace is the only reason I keep coming back to this show. He is just perfect in the role of brother Day even though it is not book concept it is the only thing that show got me really hooked on.
I was looking forward for a Demerzel-centered episode as she's the most intriguing character for me and I gotta say, it didn't disappoint. Excellent excellent acting from Laura. So subtle and nuanced. Bravo!
This ep was one of the best sci fi eps I have ever had the pleasure of watching. Maybe, the best. How can that be possible. We need a PP video analyzing my thoughts! Amazing episode!!
This was my FAVORITE episode! I loved the backstory of Demerzel! Also so sad the director of terminus never got to know his daughter survived the attack and was alive 😢
I was looking for this comment! I figured the necklace bel gave glawen before the battle had the little piece and expected him to put the bracelet on Day to switch their places.
Something I noticed: Demerzel started holding her hands in front of her when she was forced to have 'love' for the Cleon I by the device inserted into the back of her neck. I take this to indicate that while she does 'love' him, it is only because she is forced to do so against her will. She is still doing this when Cleon XVII is the brother day. This means that her love continues to be forced against her will 600+ years later.
My guess at why she suddenly pauses and leaves, is that somehow she founds out the current Dawn is now a father and his DNA is mixed with Sareth's, so basically she is not bound anymore to the next heir to the throne. So at that point she knows she can ditch Day. Basically the chip forcing her to do that is useless. And she might be free. Or soon.
@@Pomaufour Most likely she got an urgent message from the original empire:)). So far the show didn't show us this capability of the future Asimov envisioned but it exist in canon. I think the consciousness' of Joanne d'Arc and Voltaire where somehow recreated.??
I'm not convinced that Terminus was really destroyed or that we can trust anything we saw in this episode. Seldon and the Vault can incinerate people, yet he did nothing while Day took the Radiant and destroyed Terminus. Also it seems like he basically tricked Day into taking the Radiant with him. Seldon seemed to imply everything that was happening was still predicted in the math and Day's behaviour wasn't the surprise he thought it would be, so... I think something else might be going on.
I partially agree with you, but the destruction of Terminus looked pretty definitive to me. I hope they don't fall back into the trope of a time rewind, or it was just all in Day's head, as he is actually back in the vault with Seldon.
@@chs_ambs8356 well don't forget Hari wrote Hober Mallow on the Vault long after it appeared to them. The 4-dimensional nature of the Prime Radiant could make a lot of things possible. I guess we'll find out in a week.
I agree- this was my favourite episode so far. It felt like a climatic last episode with so much happening. I wonder if the actual finale next week can top it.
Wow what a great episode of a fantastic series. When Hari was talking to Demerzel with Day just kind of there for the ride felt like some sort of justice.
This was one episode where blinking was not allowed. Loved Demerezel story or Cleon's perspective of it, she's fascinating. Reborn Harry might be like Demerezel, again I'm not a book reader so I just start theorizing 😅. I'm truly gonna miss this show, when Ido they start shooting for next season??
Why make such a big deal about the Invictus in the first season only to have it sit there most of the second doing nothing only to get its ass kicked the second it comes into play? I was kind of disappointed.
As Day leaves the Vault, he says “they always disappoint you, don’t they?” Isn’t that what they say about “never meet your heroes”? This Day really thought highly of Hari!
Finally! An episode with ancient robots from earth. It was worth the wait. In a perfect galaxy this would be a story about R. Daneel and perhaps someday that story will get told.
Demerzel: "This isn't freedom." As a black person of West African descent whose ancestors were subjected to slavery, colonialism and presently neocolonialism, i felt that line differently than most probably. Perfect performance by Laura Birn. Perfect series thus far.
i believe Glaywin's death was just to add more tension as they could clearly sent a craft or something to get him. And I loved how poly spent his last moments still kneeling and praying.
yea its like 'hey we can't go get my 2nd in command and husband? we really need to blow it up this SECOND??' Day is such a dick but I think he still feels burned from Demerzel
Don't get me wrong - I love the show - but one flaw I found in the books was that the Foundation only took things so far before The Mule took over the conquering of the Galaxy (and then they sort of took over from him). And here in the Series there is even less of the Foundation's story. Salvor as Warden in S1, then Poly and Constant doing some converting in S2, and Hobor doing a small part of what is covered in the books. Obviously we all love Dawn-Day-Dusk and the Gaal-Salvor-Hari adventures but it would be good to see more of the actual Foundation doing their Thing across the Galaxy.
Crazy theory. Could the planets destruction be an illusion by the second foundation? There is already a time difference. Just a thought, I haven’t read the books!
The BESSST tv series show everrrrrrrr !!!! Amazing actors!!!Cast, script, dialogue, special effects, costumes, witty, suspense, pure brilliance!!!! ❤❤.. i love everything about this series., I hope we’ll see a continuous seasons ❤
I have wayyyyyy more questions now then answers after this episode. For starters, who created her and what exactly makes her so unique/special? What was her original purpose, and beyond having the freedom to do what she wants, what does she actually want? What exactly would she do if she had the freedom she desperately desires. 2 seasons and we haven't even scratched the surface of who her character is. They still haven't answered the question about her "decentralized" consciousness and how that works. Especially with the reveal that her programming/implanted chip prevents her from transferring said consciousness. If i didn't know any better, that sounds like a bit of a plot hole given what little i know about decentralization.
good question! maybe her mind is decentralized but the programming prevents her to change appearances, meaning she’ll have to remain Dermezel. And about her origin, on the podcast David told they have a flashback about it and if the series goes long enough we’ll see it.
Weeellll..... there's what the books say about who built her/him and there's what the series has to say about about it. For finding out who built the robot -- and why -- read 'Caves of Steel' (quite dated, but the story serves as an introduction to all that follows including Foundation). It's a quick read, and is the base for everything that happens to - or deeds done by - this character. I don't think I can really spoil anything, as the series has gone off on it's own tangent, but still, the series has been known to throw sharp turns back to certain story threads and making complicated switchbacks to keep a theme going (?)and I think this is going to have to be one of them, if only because the ending would have to be rewritten (which would be the penultimate switch). I don't think Demerzel's story as it stands is finished - I think there will be a twist or two or three....or five.....At any rate, I hope it will somehow veer back to where it belong so it can end as the books do -- it's what made the books so satisficing. Let me try to work around some of your questions: In the little book 'Caves of Steel,' the original purpose of the robot R Daneel/Demerzel was to "blend in" to human crowds on Earth to get a sense of whether or not Earthers would be willing to migrate off of Earth. Because Earthers hated robots, the robot had to look like a human, hence the creation of a humaniform robot (created by 2 scientists form another planet called Arura who were working on Earth at the time). So yes the series was correct -- the robot was built on Earth and yes, the robot is 18,000 years old. That purpose was abruptly changed, however, due to a murder. The robot was then reprogramed with a strong pull towards justice, and he is matched up with a human detective to solve the murder. That in a nutshell, is the creation story. Next.... The robot's name in the books is actually R Daneel Olivaw , the R designating Daneel as a robot. The fact that he was a humaniform robot made him special and indeed, a very unique, one of a kind robot. - all others looked like mechanical robots -- think C3PO from Starwars, which itself paid homage to one of the major robots characters in Asimov's books. Several things over the course of the books made R Daneel even more unique: he came to act more like a person than a robot, and at one point, he gains the ability to "touch" human minds to strengthen an idea to move the human to a desired action (read 'Robots of Dawn' for this development). Finally, and most importantly he reprograms himself with the zeroth law (or 4th law as some people refer to it). This changes his entire dynamic. While he had "human owners", with the application of the zeroth law, he was freed of serving individual people. As Demerzel said in the series, she was built on Earth, but her ownership became complicated - she ended up with no owner. Freedom: no robot ever has complete freedom, at least as the books go. The kind of lost freedom Demerzel has is something entirely different in the series - it is literal, not related to the three laws of robotics at all. So yes -- I agree with you -- it is a plot hole, which I assume will be addressed - or not (some plotlines seem to just disappear... ). Robots in Asimov's worlds are strictly locked into the 3 laws of robotics. They serve humans - always. Except for R Daneel, who with the application of the zeroth law, was able to change his programing. He served no single person, but rather, all of humanity. He was regarded as a renegade, and there was a price on his head, but was always one step ahead of those who hunted him. He went about creating thousands of zeroth/Fourth law robots to help him with his work. This sparked the Robot Wars - a war between the 3 law and 4 law robots. The wars ended in a draw, and somewhere in it all it is mentioned that the wars were so carefully fought that humans didn't even know it was happening (a robot may not harm a human). So I don't know where the series is going with Demerzel's punishment as a result of the wars. Maybe it was just used as a device to get her to a punishment in that vault. What the character actually wants: What the character in the books wants is to stop existing -- 20,000 leaves any one - or thing - awfully tired. Precisely why he has not been able to stop is the breadth of 7 books. Again, it is the ending that makes the entire book series so satisfying -- it truly is what R Daneel wants. What the series does with this .... who can say...... I think there will be lot of swerving around to keep people guessing. I hope that the series will land on the ending that the books offer. I guess we will just have to wait and see.....
@@joso7228 Your hopes are well grounded -- Will Smith does NOT have the rights to the I Robot series - 20th Century Fox does. They sit on it very tightly. It's why Goyer can't use the name 'Daneel', as it would be a licensing infringement. Goyer has said that he has received permission to use "Daneel", but who knows? They've supposedly had someone writing scripts, but nothing has come of it. Goyer has now said that he would willing to take on the Elijah Baley /Daneel books , as 20th Century has loved what he has done with Foundation. I'm not a fan of Goyer' s work, so I step aside on conversations about his navigation those books.
@@michaellerner528 I appreciate you taking the time to drop that write-up. It's definitely informative. I haven't read the books, and I probably wasn't because I've really liked the show thus far, but I think I'm doing myself a disservice by not reading them. From what you wrote, seems like I'm seriously missing out on a lot. Any particular order I should start from?
It’s interesting and perhaps relevant that the Invictus’ destruction looks as if it jumped and took part of Terminus with it. Perhaps moving foundation and the vault? The mark left by the spacers on Hobor’s arm is another interesting bit I am looming forward to seeing how it resolves. I didn’t quite have the edge of my seat anticipation that I had last week, especially as some have mentioned the Salvor fight was a bit dragged out, I am still looking forward to next week.
It was already said in season 1 that Cleon 1’s DNA was altered by that insurgent group that kidnapped Dawn. Demerzel didn’t do it and couldn’t because that would harm empire.
Spacers, Spacers, Spacers, the real unknown, they still have card or two to play, and with Empire Hober and Bell in orbit around the dead terminus, She who bends light is 100% in contact with the home SWARM Empire is off of Trantor, oh boy this is a good show, great video Pete
Pete thanks for a wonderful summary. This is the first and sometimes only place I come after watching an episode. This was a great episode, capping off a great season. There were some things that just felt off to me, which bugged me, but I got past them because I was enjoying the drama. For instance the space battle seemed wrong. I was expecting at least several of the many Empire capital ships to fire on the Invictus, not just have one ship launch a few fighters. And that room behind the painting that nobody ever notices for hundred (neigh thousands) of years. Just touch the right part of the wall that Dusk spends all his free time at, and which we learned is even a little off color, and which just so happens to have the same symbol as Demerzel's makeup kit? There were several other details like those two throughout the episode that just felt out of scale to me. But as I said the drama outshone the shortcomings. A few irreverent comments, not to be taken too seriously: - I was absolutely right a week ago! Empire was going to Terminus to get another atomic ash tray. He explicitly said so right in the episode! - This was a great season with a great cast, but Poly and Brother Constan really stole the show for me. I was glad they had so much screen time. - First season was always a downer when we left Trantor. The best drama was always with the Cleons but this season almost everywhere they visited was done well. - Don't worry, Poly wasn't carrying around his flag in his robes for a hundred years. He pulled some other kid's flag up from the ground when you weren't looking. 🙂 - When Hari, or whatever he is, came out of nowhere and struck down Tellem with a stick, he should have shouted "Never give up, never surrender!". The vibe totally matched that final scene from Galaxy Quest.
As a book reader, I am just really confused about Terminus being gone. This is far far fetch theory. We know the mentalics story is happening a bit before the crisis. Is it possible for mentalics to be in the scene and work together to make believe that the terminus is destroyed?
Was nice to see the Transmuter show up. A little dialog/book scene for the readers out there. I have come to accept this series is definitely going its own way and is a minimal adaptation. Growing up with the books and ready the sequels and prequels in my teeens and early 20s, I KNOW the story of Foundation, and this series definitely is not that story of Foundation. But it is its own thing and in that way allows for the unexpected, like the end of this episode. I am left wondering what they are going to do with a Plan that is seemingly more wrecked than anything that happened in the books.
HOLY POLY!!! I just saw the episode and I am in complete ecstasy!!! Book purists, be damned! This is the BEST space sci-fi on TV since the good ol' days of Farscape and Firefly. And its not a coincidence that Foundation completes the tri"F"ecta! This is one of the very few times that I finished the episode and immediately watched again! Every sequence is a masterpiece! Demerzel's story, Poly's speech, Seldon and Day, the space battle, the fvcking SPACE BATTLE! the Invictus crashing into Terminus! And to spire my feelings completely out of control, Bel's ship is called 'Destiny' (i have over 3000hrs and counting logged into Destiny 2 the game) Gaal's part still meh tho. Pure sci-fi orgasm! Davis S. Goyer: you Sir, are a fvcking genius!!! WOW.....just WOW! 10/10
I love what you just said!!! Spot on my friend! I think the actor playing Poly deserves all the accolades and some Emmy love too! Thx for your insightful comments! 👏👏👏👏
I couldn't agree more! The books and Asimov must be honoured as the original inspiration and the ground breaking saga they present, but the show has taken that and turned it into the greatest science fiction I have ever seen. The technology, characters, plot, scale, intersecting arcs, themes, and the expanse and ambition of the empire and foundation FAR exceeded anything that we ever saw in the likes of Star Trek and Star Wars, which now honestly appear silly in comparison. And then we have absolute mastery on the technical side too, with the visual effects, the music, the costumes, the cinematography, heck even the intro! We of course have to acknowledge the master-class acting too, Jarred Harris and Laura Birn perfectly execute every scene, and then the brothers of course, Lee, Cassian and Terrence's ability to portray so many different Day, Dawn and Dusk (and Darkness and Cleon I) respectively, all appearing unique. This show truly is the most polished piece of science fiction, ticks all the boxes!
Did no one else notice that the Invictus jump drive was spinning very fast as it hit the planet? Also, at the very end you see the explosion getting sucked in. I'm guessing the Invictus jumped to Trantor.
9:19 I love that look of disgust that Dusk gives Cleon, although I knew he and Eve were screwed. Why else would Cleon spill all the beans? I really like this Dusk, and his back story suggests that he was a more or less benevolent Day, even falling in love with a concubine, Eve, when most Cleons wouldn't give them a second thought after the act. Also he's the one who took the lead on investigating Day's memory tampering machinations. Hmmm, Dusk and Eve, that's a nice little wordplay, they belong together you might say?
I thought the "living" Harri was a Demerzel-type robot from the beginning of his getting a body. His return has only helped reinforce that thought. I'm not sure what else he could be, honestly. Oh, and Demerzel's burn to Cleon the 17th was epic. Losing the first Foundation is a little confusing, especially as the second one has yet to start, but I am enjoying this story, and I hope they can keep up the excellent writing for the third season. I suspect there will be one, even if delayed by the various strikes happening.
@@joso7228 I don't think the writing is bad. They are obviously using elements from all the books, as opposed to the somewhat segmented stories of the books. I was expecting some features from the books to have the same timeline in the show, even with the changes, but I'm not personally bothered by the changes. I'm just a bit confused as to what those changes will bring. Personally, I think putting the books on screen would have been boring. They are good as books but would not have made a good show if someone had directly translated them into a show. I'm pleased with their version of the story, yet I don't know where they go from here.
